JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Physician, Intuitive Guide and Relationship Coach Dr. Veronica Anderson is the bestselling author of 4 books, including“Get the Respect You Deserve: 7 Secrets to Getting Seen and Heard in Your Job and Relationships.” Dr. Veronica transitioned from her own private practice as an Eye Surgeon to a Spiritual Guide & Transformational Coach, delivering individual and group programs to help her clients overcome strange, rare, and peculiar issues. Using her intuitive skills and signature R.E.S.P.E.C.T Method, Dr. Veronica guides high-achieving professional women on making successful career, health, and relationship transitions by learning how to become their beautiful authentic selves. She uses tools such as Psychic Intuitive Energy Readings, the Kolbe Index, and Human Design to help people deeply understand their spiritual nature, instincts, and intuition and how to use them to get what they want in their careers and in romance.

Dr. Veronica Anderson began her medical career as an Eye Surgeon after graduating from Princeton University and Rutgers Medical School (with honors). She now has the distinction of being both a licensed physician and a practicing psychic. Dr. Veronica is an Integrative Medicine Physician, certified in Functional Medicine and trained in Homeopathy.

In her programs, Dr. Veronica uses her gifts and talents to help people with strange, rare, and peculiar issues who feel like they just haven’t gotten answers or results from strategies they have tried previously. She provides guidance to her clients, who receive clarity, validation, and confirmation, which decreases fear and increases confidence.

Dr. Veronica hosted her own podcast and AM radio show for several years and has appeared on national television as well as multiple syndicated radio shows and podcasts. She is a 3rd Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do who splits her time living in Bucks County, Pennsylvania, Harlem, New York City, and Nice, France, with her husband and two dogs, Artemis and Apollo.  Find more and grab her book HERE.

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EPISODE 266: Dr. Veronica Anderson



[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

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You and I, we’ve shared a lot together from discussions about how to have amazing sex and deeply connected relationships to sharing powerful strategies to amplify pleasure and connection in our lives, but there’s something I treasure above all, and that is supporting you, the amazing person behind all the stories, the one embarking on this fantastic journey towards building an epic connection with yourself, your sexuality, and your relationships. It’s my primary mission to ensure that you have the resources and support that you need so you can never feel alone in this journey, and I want you to know I am right here with you.

1:01

But I want to do even more. I want to make it super easy for you to invest in yourself and your growth and your pleasure.

So, here’s the big news. For a limited time, I’m offering our transformative Pleasure Foundation Membership for 50% off, and this is a big discount because your journey towards more pleasure and connection matters that much to me. I want it to be like a no-brainer to drop in and learn the tools you need to feel more stronger, more confident. I believe this can be the gentle nudge you need to invest in your pleasure and to do the practices to support you receiving the deep connection and nourishment that you want.

So, if you've been thinking about joining The Pleasure Foundation, consider this your sign. To grab this offer, please visit www.amandatesta.com/tpf, and I am beyond excited to welcome you on the inside.

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1:58

Hello and welcome everyone! Why do so many high-performing professionals struggle to get the respect and appreciation they deserve? If you are looking to create rewarding and fulfilling, respectful relationships in all areas of your life, you're in the right place. So, listen up!

Joining us today -- I’m so excited -- I’m talking with Dr. Veronica Anderson. She is a physician, a coach, and a best-selling author of numerous books including Get the Respect You Deserve. So, she has a very unique perspective because she blends medicine, psychology, corporate consulting as well as she is a psychic, so she has this amazing lens with which she helps high-achieving professionals cultivate successful careers, healthy habits, and relationships where they get the respect they deserve.

So, we are gonna be diving into all kinds of juicy things today! Welcome, Dr. Veronica. I’m so happy to be with you here today.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Thank you for having me! I’m delighted, and I was excited to be here, too, with the type of audience you have. So, let’s get into really juicy stuff!

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes! Well, one of the things I think is so interesting, which I’m sure you probably get this question a lot being that you went to Princeton, and you were an eye surgeon and then you kind of transformed into a spiritual guide and a transformational coach.

3:09

I’d love if you’d share a little bit of your story around that, if you wouldn't mind.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: So, people like to ask, “Well, when did you know that you were a psychic?” Okay, so you realize that there are some people and you’ve met these people and that’s their only calling and their only -- not only, but that’s their main ability and it’s been in their family, you know what I’m saying? They have this story of, “I’ve always been like this,” and they give you all the kind of strange things that happen to them. It wasn't like that. That’s not my story. Of course it’s not my story. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Dr. Veronica Anderson: And there’s a lot of people who are in your audience, that’s not going to be their story either. They're gonna have a different story. So, these abilities were there, but I never realized that there was anything different about me until well into adulthood and well past being a doctor in practice actually.

4:07

But when I look back on it, I realize that I was using those intuitive abilities to even help me, when I was in medical school, diagnosing strange and rare illnesses, and everybody thought, “Oh, my god, she’s so smart and she’s so brilliant!”

Now, I will admit, yes, I do have an Ivy League degree. I did go to medical school and graduate with honors, and I knew how to take a test, okay? That part of the brain works really well. That cognitive part is very strong, but that is not the same thing as what the spiritual thing that’s going on is, and I’m sure your audience knows that.

So, I realized, yes, I knew how to work the cognitive, and I have one of those kinds of memories. I can just pull things out, but also, I can read energy. I can assess energy because that’s what this is all about, assessing people’s energy fields.

5:04

And that allowed me to know the answers a lot, to what was going on to people when they had some kind of illness or injury or problem, like, in a nanosecond. I mean, in a nanosecond these answers would come in. So, when you're in medical school, you can take the test but then when they try to screw you to the wall and give you the difficult case, you just can seem to answer the difficult case to the point where they stop wanting to call on you because they know you're gonna know the answer. And I realized back then that this was what I was doing. I wasn't getting it out of my left brain. I was getting it from someplace else, but this is a debrief after I thought about what happened in my life.

So, what happened, yes, I was a smart kid, and my mom, a Black woman, ended up going to college after we went to school but was always very -- they used to call her the Jewish mother, okay? [Laughs] Because when they would ask her what she wanted her children to be or what are her children gonna be, she’d be like, “That’s the doctor, and that’s the lawyer.”

6:15

And so, I have a lot of friends who are Jewish, and they’ll talk like that, and I’ll say, “They used to call my mom the Jewish mother.” And what does that really mean? It means my mother had a vision for me and my sister. That’s all we’re talking about, and I think it’s important to have a vision for your life and for the life of your kids when they're young.

So, my mother realized that I was smart, I had this ability, and she’s the one that said, “You're really smart.” We lived in New Jersey, and she’d be like, “Let me take you by Princeton.” I don't know how she knew about it. But I was supposed to get there. [Laughs]

But to fast forward to it, I had started my own medical practice, double digits thousands of patients. I was working. I was part time, other doctors working for me, making almost a million dollars a year, married to a guy who was an investment banker who was my college sweetheart, but yet, I became miserable.

7:12

I had everything, from a physical standpoint, that people say you're supposed to have, but yet, there was something not right to me, and I could not put my finger on it.

I felt like I was supposed to be someplace, doing something else, being with somebody else, and this is a time where I’m running my own practice, I’m going to church, and I’m teaching Sunday school, and it’s like, “Oh, my god,” you know? I have three sons by this point, and I’m feeling like I can’t stand this from a perspective. Now, I felt incredibly blessed and lucky and everything to be where I was, but there was something else that I was hungering for.

8:02

And so, I became clinically depressed because I felt so bad, and people would tell me I just didn't know how to be happy. I didn't walk around, and people thought that I was unhappy. But I had this suffering feeling, and I felt shame and guilt. Shame and guilt is the thing of illness. I felt shame and guilt for even feeling that way because here I am walking around in a very, very privileged life feeling like this is not it, okay?

So, one day -- it really was like this. I kind of planned my escape. One day I just decided to jump out of that. I went to my husband, and I said, “I don't want to be married anymore,” and I didn't want to practice medicine anymore, and I don't ever want to go back to church. I just got up the courage one day, and it wasn't easy to do this, and I broadsided my ex-husband because we didn't really have a bad marriage. I wasn't cheated on. All the stories that you hear where people make the other person the bad guy, we didn't have any of that.

9:12

And so, I like to tell this story because I know there’s somebody else out there who’s feeling like, “Yeah, everything looks perfect, but I understand what you're talking about.” I just got the courage up one day to get out, and that, of course, started that journey of severe depression. Now, think about it. I’m a doctor. I’m running around, owning my own practice, got kids, being a wife. Ugh, I was burnt out bad, and I was burnt out bad because I’m not meant to work like that from my spiritual design (my Human Design). We can get into that. I’m a visionary. I wasn't being visionary doing the same thing every day all day. I loved my patients, from a people perspective. I hated the practice of medicine because it was very limiting. I couldn't stand going to church because the way they were teaching spiritual principles I thought were all wrong and the interpretations were wrong.

10:12

I’m like, “No, I’m not a sinner. No, I’m not,” right? So, they tell you this negative narrative that I didn't believe in, never ever, ever, but you're supposed to believe in it, and if you don't you're going straight to hell, okay?

I became depressed with all that because at the same time that I was having it -- very salient that I had these abilities. It just started to become very salient that I knew things that other people didn't know with no physical rhyme or reason. Now, what do I do with this? Who do I talk to? So, I crashed and burned. But you know when they say your worst day ends up being your best day? There was the day I walked into -- I told my husband I was moving out, I bought a new house, and I went back to the house, and in that house my former husband -- and we were still married at the time.

11:10

Divorce papers were not even signed at that time. There was another woman in my house. [Laughs] And that day I went and I started hitting them both, and I was like everything I’ve learned up to this point, everything I’ve learned in school, everything I’ve learned in church, everything I’ve learned had not prepared me for that point because I know if there would have been a gun, there would have been dead people and I would be in jail.

That was that moment that I realized before I got depressed and was like, “I’m leaving,” but the moment I realized something has got to change, I’ve got to figure out a new way, a new paradigm for life. Because I did that, here I am talking about this, and I love talking about it now because, first of all, you can get out of this.

12:04

You think when you're in a circumstance that you can't get out of it and there’s not gonna be support for it, and there are all kinds of people -- the people in the church abandoned me. Friends abandoned me. But guess what? Everything got stripped away so I could walk into this new life, and it was painful walking into a new life not knowing, feeling abandoned, feeling alone, but that was truly being born again. Starting over, new friends, now I have a new husband. We’ve been married for a while now, but when you decide to take that step and move forward, the universe will provide.

That was the day that I trusted myself, really the first time, to step out and say, “There is something else out there before me, and I’m gonna believe there’s something else out there before me.”

13:01

But it doesn't come real quick all the time because your muscles of trust and belief have not been exercised, so until you learn how to exercise those muscles, things aren’t going to come quick and it’s gonna be painful. This is how I ended up getting to, now, my fourth book, the book about respect because the respect came to me -- you know, these things start coming in dreams. People talk about they’re not being respected, but what does that actually mean? I see doctors talk about it. I see women, men, everybody. “They don't respect me.” Sometimes my husband now will say, “You don't respect me,” and I’m like, “What does he mean?” What it means not to be respected is you don't feel seen, you don't feel heard, you don't feel appreciated.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: “You don't see, hear, or appreciate me.” Yeah, so how do you get seen, heard, and appreciated? Well, I am a doctor, so there’s a process for that!

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: And that’s where The Respect Method comes in. So, ask me anything you want. Ask me something hard and juicy, though. Let's get deep. [Laughs]

14:07

Amanda Testa: Yes, well, I just want to reflect back on that story because I think a lot of people, especially when they're depressed, they can't make those steps forward no matter how hard it may be, but there was that something inside of you that led you to keep moving forward to find trust. And I love that trust piece because you also mentioned -- I think there are a lot of people out there who often maybe have that experience of feeling unseen, unheard, unappreciated. Especially I know there are a lot of busy, high-achieving, working mamas and all kinds of people listening to the podcast that sometimes feel that way. I mean, I even just hear -- well, when we’re recording this episode, Mother’s Day was just happening, and I have seen all kinds of posts about people feeling super unappreciated on Mother’s Day, which I think that just goes to show there are ways to come back to that trust. And so, I’m curious. There are a couple things I want to ask.

Number one, I know trust is an important thing, and it’s also a big part of your framework, but what do you think helps you connect to that trust? Tell me how you’re able to do that.

15:13

Dr. Veronica Anderson: As I’ve said, it’s a muscle. So, the first thing you have to realize is you have to have faith in the universe and the process that it wants you -- you are deemed to have success and an abundant life. It’s an underlying belief. Now, if you don't believe that, think about how hard it is just for any human being to be born. Now, as a doctor, I know everything that can go wrong, and I know the stats of -- there are people out there who have had difficulties with fertility. There are people out there who have had miscarriages, but even people who haven’t been through that, that you don't know, there’s been a lot that has happened to get you here. So, you are already meant to be here, and you are a success. So, right there you know, “Okay, I’m supposed to be here for something. Now, what is it?”

16:15

So, you’ve got to start with that premise of knowing it, and you may have not ever heard this before today because you happen to be born into that spiritually-challenging family, which told you all kinds of other things that were negative about you. And I’ve got to tell you, like I said, this is one of the reasons I stopped going to church, because they were trying to tell me negative things about me that I just knew weren't true. And so, I’m like, “I ain’t sitting here and listening to this anymore,” right? I mean, they used to call me rebellious and a jezebel because I would say, “Why?” and ask questions and not believe some of the doctrine.

Now, as I’ve gone along further in life and decided not to look at institutions but to look at text, there are different interpretations that come down when it’s you and the universe versus somebody telling you what you're supposed to believe.

17:10

There are universal truths out there that run through lots of spiritual text, including the Judeo, Christian, Islamic, the three main texts. The truths are there, but what happens with these texts is we allow other people to interpret them for us when what is really supposed to happen is it’s you and the universe talking to each other.

And so, this is about how do you flex your muscles, how do you strengthen your muscles? You start to say, “I know there’s a word for me. Where am I gonna go to get that word,” and getting it directly to you versus through somebody says that they have a word and here’s how they can come through signs and wonders, right?

18:03

I mean, my coach was teaching about signs and wonders, so there’ll be what you’ll call coincidences where you’ll say something or ask a question and all of a sudden the answer will pop up on a license plate or somebody will say something in a store. So, those are the kinds of things that happen, and my coach was teaching about this, how when you're early on your faith walk, you get these -- there was a book called When God Winks. God winks like that, right? Those are for people on their early faith way.

What happens, then, next is you start to be able to recognize people, places, and things that are giving you messages that know that you're on the path and it’s not so obvious, but then you’ve gotten to the point where your muscles are strong enough and your eyes and your spirit are strong enough that you’re like, “Uh, that’s trying to tell me something. What is it?”

So, one of the things that I think tells us a lot is when you get a strong emotion. So, you're in a relationship, you're talking about sex, and I get some emails and people are ranting and raving about something, well, you're getting a spiritual message.

19:10

There’s a reason that you're in a relationship with that person because they are your biggest spiritual teacher. Now, that’s not saying at all you should be in a relationship where you're being abused or beat down. If you're in a relationship and you're being abused or beat down, you need to remove yourself period, end of discussion. Safety first.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: And then you think about what was it that I did that got me into this circumstance. You have to use the R in respect to reflect, to look in the mirror at yourself and take that radical responsibility, and that was the day that changed my life. I read this book by a physician called Real Love, and I don't remember anything else that book said except there was something that said to the effect that if you are unhappy, it’s you that’s the problem, and I knew intuitively that that was true, that it wasn't anything outside myself, that is was me that was the issue, even though I thought it was him and everything that happened and you all have the story going around, we’re all taught that we’re the victim.

20:20

All humans, we’re taught we’re the victim. We live in the Karpman triangle: the victim, the rescuer, and the persecutor. We all live among them. We’re the victim, the rescuer, the persecutor, and that’s all of humanity who’s been taught to live that way. So, you have to teach yourself to live outside of that but you're not going to teach yourself to live outside of that until you decide, “I’m not a victim. I’m gonna be a victor,” period. And then you go to -- not victim. There’s no more victim. You're a creator.

And so, when you take on that role as creator, you look in the mirror and say, “I created this.” No matter how bad it was or what you think somebody is. From the spiritual standpoint, you have a contract with those other souls to bring you to whatever point that was in life, to teach you a lesson on your journey.

21:16

And so, you may have had some really horrible things happen to you, and that’s why you really have to do the spiritual soul searching and think about, “Okay, how am I gonna reconcile -- what happened to me --,” and everybody’s got to do this, but only for a short period of time because people stay here. “What is it that I need to work out from a soul level that made me have this particular experience,” no matter how bad it was. You have to say, “What on a soul level am I supposed to learn from this experience,” and then after you do that reflection, you know exactly where you are, and the next step is (a word that nobody likes to hear) forgiveness. The first person you need to forgive is yourself, right, for staying so long, for being whatever you were, for all the things that -- whatever it is. You forgive yourself first, and by forgiving yourself -- because we are the hardest on ourselves -- you learn the process of forgiving other people and accepting other people.

22:19

So, first you have to say, “Here I am,” and as Michael Jackson said you’ve got to look at the man in the mirror or the woman in the mirror, and the only person that you can change is you. You have to understand you attracted whatever you have in your life because that was the vibrational frequency you were on at that particular time, and if you want something different, you need to learn how to let go of those things that are not serving you, those low-vibration things (shame, fear, guilt) and move up to what you say that you want. That’s the whole process.

23:00

That’s what The Respect Method is about. It’s about going from reflecting to being able to understand yourself, forgiving other people because I gave you a construct. We can talk about this. The Human Design in Kolbe is what I like to use for people to be able to see something and understand something. You get a construct to understand who you are from an instinctual being, from an intuitive being. You also understand imprinting but how your family made you that way and how genetics made you that way. And once you understand that you were meant to be that way and, therefore, now you can learn how to love yourself because the universe made you that way uniquely for a particular reason, then you can realize that, “Well, everybody else is made this way, too, and they're not gonna change.” So, if they're not gonna change, then how are we gonna work this situation out?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, so yeah, I’m curious if you could share a little bit more about some of these tools that you use. For those listening who -- I know Human Design, a lot of people are familiar, and some aren't. So, if you could share a little bit more about that and how that kind of helps to give you an understanding of what might be going on.

24:07

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Yes, so after you reflect, the next thing is to evaluate your beliefs, and that’s a process, but S goes to surrender to your spirit, and this is about, well, who are you and what do you look like from a spiritual being and from an instinctual being.

So, I use two tools. I’m what’s called a Kolbe Certified™ consultant. Kolbe is spelled K-O-L-B-E for those of you who are eight on the fact-finding of Kolbe. [Laughs] But Kolbe is your instinct, how you do, how you take action. So, let me back up a second.

Now, I studied neuroscience in college and went through all that stuff with the brain, so I love brains, so I’m gonna give you a very simple reason. Three parts of the brain and of the mind, and these all have anatomical correlates, have been well researched.

25:00

Part number one (everybody’s familiar with): cognitive, which is where the IQ, the thinking and reasoning things are. The second part of the brain: affective. That is where the emotions are, where the personality is. Think DISC tests. The DISC is the most popular. Corporate loves to use DISC tests. But guess what? Those types of tests are changeable. IQ tests are changeable too. There’s this third part of the brain that most people have never heard of. It’s called conative. C-O-N-A-T-I-V-E because I know people listening are saying, “What?” Conative, and that means how you take action when you're free to do things naturally. This is your natural instinct on how you do. So, here are the three parts of the mind. There’s thinking, there’s feeling, and there’s doing.

And so, Kathy Kolbe, who is a wonderful woman, in her eighties, still teaching us, her father invented one of the IQ tests.

26:06

And so, all her life she was watching this and realized, “There’s something missing because you see these people, and they have really high IQs, but they're not doing so well. Then you see these people, they score low and they're doing great! What else is there?” This is when she realized people do things a lot differently, and she came up with this because, of course, when the universe wants you to be the spokesperson for something, the universe will give you that information. So, the Kolbe Assessment or Kolbe Index, it’s not a test. Everybody gets a perfect score. There’s not one that’s better than the others, but there are four main types.

There’s a Fact Finder. This is the person that likes facts and details. Right now I can tell you the person who’s the fact finder, I am not giving enough details at all because I’m not a Fact Finder. The Fact Finder never has enough details. So, let’s think about how this plays out in a relationship. If you have someone that you get into a relationship with and they seem like they need to know more and more and more about you and they seem like they're taking a long time to pop the question, and it may have been years, and you can't figure out what they're still looking for, that might be somebody who’s a, what we call, Initiating Fact Finder, okay?

27:24

The next type is called a Follow Through, and those are the people who like to organize, and somebody who’s a Follow Through might be somebody who is an excellent podcast host or an MC who masters ceremonies. They like to systematize and organize, and this is how they do life primarily. When it’s time to take action, the first thing they will do is systematize and organize to be able to figure out how to do things.

The third type of person is called a Quick Start, and if you look at me, I bet you can guess that I’m a Quick Start. The Quick Start is the risk taker, the innovator. You might have a lot of people in your audience who are entrepreneurs and love to be serial entrepreneurs.

28:06

They take risk. How they take action, and I’m a nine of the Quick Start, and one to ten is we innovate, we take risk, we talk off the cuff, and so, when I said did they ask me anything, if you ever get someone who’s a Quick Start, they don't even need any data. They're gonna make up stuff, and so, you must fact check them because they're gonna be so good on their feet. When everybody else is flummoxing, the Quick Start will be standing in the background observing and then the person who will come forward, put it all together, and be like, “Oh, my god, she/he just convinced me.” That’s the Quick Start, the innovator.

And then there’s the Implementer person, and they're the person who makes things happen. They're the builder. If you don't have somebody like this on your team, you’ll be in the idea stage a lot because nothing will ever happen, okay?

29:05

So, when people take the Kolbe Assessment, they realize that, “Oh, my god!” This is why I had to jump out of medicine. Now, there are people, obviously, who innovate in medicine, but you're the heretic because you're not supposed to -- you're supposed to follow the process, and when you don't follow the process, the lawyers come after you. But the way we really do get new and exciting stuff is because there are enough quick starts who innovate and say, “Here’s the next big thing.” They have the ideas. They're always thinking of it that way, and then they have, behind them, the Fact Finders who are doing the research to say, “Why, why, why, why, why, why, why? Here’s why, here’s why, here’s why, and here’s more why, and can we get some more why?” That’s what the Fact Finders do. And then the Organizer will put it all together, go up to the podium, and say, “Okay, well, now, we’re gonna have the presentation on this and pick out the different people to do the different things.”

30:04

So, what’s the benefit of this? In a work environment, you create team synergy by having what’s called conative diversity. Everybody’s taught about diversity, equity, inclusion. I don't want you to pick me because my skin is brown or because I’m a woman. I want you to pick me for my innovative brain to be able to teach you about the Kolbe, and then I’m gonna pass it off to other people who are gonna do little details with you, okay? And then I’m gonna teach you about this next-wave stuff that you're like, “Well, there’s not enough data there,” but you'll be like, “Okay, well, but it rings true with me.” There you go to Human Design.

So, I introduce you with the data stuff for people who like to go and look at all the data stuff. But then I get you to the stuff that’s really gonna get to your energy, right? So, when you're in a boardroom, you create high-performing teams by looking for all types to get your team where you feel there are 12 blocks, basically.

31:06

You want to get people in the team that fill all the 12 blocks, and then when you go to the bedroom, what you start noticing is, “Okay, I’m a Quick Start, but my husband is a Follow Through. He’s low on the Quick Start, so I’m gonna have to be the one to innovate.” He says to me, “You're so impulsive!” That’s because in that area he’s a three and I’m a nine.

So, this is why we might also hit heads sometimes because I'm trying to innovate and he’s the person who maintains order and keeps what’s good, good, pulls back down. So you see how you need both. You need the Innovator, but I never stop innovating.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: You need the person who’s gonna keep something because you don't want to throw out everything all the time because I would throw out everything every day and start new and fresh because this is how I do, right?

32:01

So you need all of these people, but when you're in a relationship, what you start to realize is that, okay, he’s a Follow Through. I’m telling you specifically about my husband. He’s a Follow Through, and I do this with couples too, but also with teams in a work setting, it’s just the languaging is different. It’s Kolbe A. We do an A-to-A comparison on a couple or a team. We also can do this test on a particular position. So, if you want to hire someone, you can figure out what does the position say. This is government-approved non-discriminatory. It’s the only test that you can do for people pre-employment because it’s been shown to be repeatable and very, very excellent at saying whether somebody will be good at one job or the other. But what does this all do? It helps you understand who’s sitting in front of you. It helps you understand other people on the team, and you realize that, “Okay, they're good at this. I’m not so good at that, so I’m gonna get this other person to do that.”

33:06

Now, what you don't want to do is I don't want everyone to say, “Well, I’m a Quick Start, so I can't do the organization.” It’s not true. You can do all the areas, so you can't use that as an excuse, but that’s not my best and highest use, and I have to use a lot of energy to be organized, right? So, this is why for years and years and years I have the housekeeper coming in once a week because everything would be in disarray, right, if I didn't have somebody to help keep things organized on a regular basis, right? You have to figure out what tools, all right?

So, that’s the Kolbe Assessment. It takes about 15 minutes. It can be used in corporate. The Kolbe corporation will tell you that when they ask people in corporations where they're going, and this is where it’s introduced most, what was most impactful about it, they all say, when they took it home to their families because all of a sudden they could all understand each other.

34:05

Amanda Testa: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I’m curious, how does weaving in both the Kolbe and Human Design pieces help you with couples? Because I know it is so enlightening when you can kind of understand how the other person works, like, “Oh, this is…”

Dr. Veronica Anderson: For the Fact Finders, I want to give the thing that you can go out and get a lot of data on.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: So that’s why I like to start with the Kolbe because there’s a lot of research behind it.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: When you go into the spiritual area, it is more challenging in a research area because I think there’s not a lot of money in it because when people learn how to manage themselves they can't throw medicine at us. That’s why I think there’s not a lot of research going on in the spiritual area, but that’s just my own bias. But these spiritual topics have to do with things like quantum physics -- and I’ll tell you, quantum neutrino physics, which is part of Human Design, actually in 2015 -- it came into being in 1987 so it’s very new. In 2015, there was a Nobel Prize that was won on these types of topics in quantum physics with the neutrinos.

35:15

So Rah, who’s the guy -- you know, when you have a spiritual awakening, you’ve got to change your name so I can't remember what his name was, but now he’s Rah.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Dr. Veronica Anderson: [Laughs] I don't know! I haven't changed my name yet, so I haven't gotten there yet, but Rah, it was downloaded from the universe. Just like Kathy Kolbe came up with. This is downloaded. This is divine downloading, no matter whether it’s studied or not. It’s just you may be way ahead of your time like Einstein. Think about Einstein. There were things that, way after he was dead they were proving, “This is it,” and he was wandering around saying things that were -- and formulas and things like that that people just couldn't figure out, like what is that, later on.

So, Human Design is like that. It is an energetic system. It combines the quantum neutrino physics, the chakra system, Kabbalah, I-Ching, and the Natal Chart (elements of astrology).

36:09

There is not a one-to-one correlation between any of these. It’s its own system, but you start with people’s birth date, time, and place, and it’s very important to know the time and place because it has to do with where the planets are, and when we start talking about how neutrinos are working and following, the planets make a difference.

Now, anybody who wants to doubt what the planets do, well, why do we have seasons, and anybody who’s in healthcare or anything like that knows that when the moon changes people’s behavior changes. Everybody will tell you that. It’s been studied, okay? It’s not a coincidence. So, we have some understanding that the movement of the planets and the earth that we are on makes a difference, but we’re not gonna talk about the research. If you don't believe, this isn't the time to click off and tune out, but this is where it gets really deep.

37:06

So, what happens in Human Design is it comes up with very high-level five types, and those five types are divided into energy and non-energy types. And so, the energy types -- I think you told me this before -- are Generators or some type of generator. So, there are Generators or Manifesting Generators. You're a Manifesting Generator. What does it mean? It means your sacral center is defined, you have that energy motor center, and you are happy as can be when you are doing the work you're meant to be. The Generators are the people who get the work done in our world. Now, don't feel bad if you're a Generator. I’m not gonna give you tons of famous ones, but Oprah’s a Generator, the Dalai Lama's a Generator. I mean, there are a lot of people out there in different professions. You're gonna say, “Generator? I’m just a Generator?” No, it’s not just a Generator. Nothing would get done if everybody were like me. [Laughs]

38:07

I’m not a Generator. But I love Generators. I am married to a Manifesting Generator, a true Manifesting Generator, because there are Generators with manifesting qualities that we call Manifesting Generators, and this is getting deep, but what does it mean? Define manifesting, defined throat. The throat is what you manifest out of. So, you have a defined throat, but you also have the defined sacral center, and it means that you can initiate and you can take action, okay? So, somebody who’s a Generator, they're actor and responder. Seventy percent of the population are some type of Generator. The real number is 68. Sixty-eight percent are some type of Generator, okay? See, I can get specific sometimes.

Then you have the non-energy type. What does that mean? It means our sacral center is undefined. We do not have the defined motor center, and that’s the center of infinite energy and vitality and everything like that. Now, that doesn't mean that you're a slump or anything like that. I mean, most people would not look at me and say I don't have energy. It just means you're meant to do something different than the way your energy lands with people and your strategy for life is different.

39:23

So, the three non-energy types are Projectors, Manifestors, and Reflectors. Reflectors have no defined centers. They're like a mirror. So, you're around these people, they're one with nature. You may love them, or you may hate them because they're mirroring everything that’s going around. So, you can see how somebody who has a lot of open centers is bringing in what’s going on around them and can mirror back to you not even knowing they're doing it. These are wonderful people to have on a team because they're almost like a chameleon and can do anything and everything. Now, they're only one percent of the population. One percent of people are Reflectors, okay? Now, remember, if you're a non-energy type, you’ve got to get a lot of rest.

40:09

Now, I’m gonna talk about rest and burnout because there are people out there who are Generators who have burnt out. I’ll tell you what the problem is with that after I give the other types.

There are Manifestors. Everybody thinks they want to be a Manifestor. They're the people who it seems like things just happen like this for them. That’s the Manifestor. They have a defined throat where they can manifest but they're meant only to initiate. Manifestors can seem put-off-ish and rude and can have an aura that’s more repelling. So, when people say they want to be a Manifestor, you have to learn how to walk in the world to get people to understand you, and because you can just seem like you can get things to happen out of magic, there are a lot of people who don't like that a lot of times. And because you can get things to happen, a lot of times you’ll feel like you don't need other people.

41:05

Now, Manifesting Generators can be extra like that because they can initiate, and they can do. So, Manifesting Generators are the type of people that a lot of times you don't need somebody else to do, and so, you can piss people off because they don't know.

Now, what do you do if you're a Manifestor, or let’s say a Manifesting Generator, to get by it? You've got to just inform people what’s happening. You’ve got to use that voice, not change what you're going to do because you know how to initiate. That is your core genius. But you just have to inform people ahead of time, so they know what’s what, all right?

Now, the final type is where I fall. I’m what’s called a Projector. It means that my strategy for life, I don't have a defined center. I happen to have a defined throat, but I don't have a motor center connected to the throat. I don't have my sacral center connected to my throat. It’s up there. It’s split from it. So I’m what’s called a Unicorn Projector because I have those manifesting qualities, but my aura and my strategy is wait for the invitation, wait for recognition. I cannot initiate.

42:23

So notice here I am on your podcast. You didn't find me through me. You found me through an introduction. So anybody who’s out there who’s a Projector, I want them to hear this. Your two themes as a Projector are bitterness versus success and you get bitter because you're not seen unless you’re recognized. So why would I write a book of how to get seen and heard? Because I’m used to not being seen and heard. I can be invisible if you can believe that. There are times where I’m invisible to people if they don't recognize me, and you have to understand that as a Projector, you're meant to be a wise guide, and that means don't cash your pearls for swine. You’re a guide, but you have to wait for people to ask you for guidance.

43:12

So, how do I get recognized? How does a Projector get recognized in an introduction, and then you say, “Huh, that seems interesting. I’d like to talk to her,” and it’s your idea. They presented me and introduced me, and then it was your idea to say, “Well, that would be really interesting.” So, Projectors, think about that. But another way to get recognized, because this can be tough in a relationship, this can cause all kinds of fights because if I’m not seen or heard or recognized and I offer my opinion, me and my husband are having a big fight, and you're like, “Well, what do you do? You're allowed to talk.” Yes, but guess how I handle this? I ask for recognition. I ask him. He’s a Generator.

Now, anybody who’s a Generator, you operate in the yes/no realm. So, ask your center a yes or no question and heed that yes or no, right? So, how does anybody else get recognized? I ask him a yes or no question.

44:08

“Would you like to know what I think about that?” And then when he says, “Yes,” I tell him what I think. He recognized me. But if he says, “No,” I keep my mouth shut. And sometimes he jokes because I ask, but if I just go in and I start talking, he’s gonna be pissed because my energy becomes repulsive when I try to initiate. But it’s magnetic when I stay in my strategy and type. So, do you see how this can play out in relationship?

Now, let me just say one other thing about Generators because, Generators, I said you have unlimited energy and there’s somebody out there saying, “Well, if I’m a Generator and I have unlimited energy, why did I burn out?” Generators do burn out because you were saying yes to something that’s a no. You can burn out of a relationship. You can burn out a job. When you say yes to something that’s a no and you know exactly what that is because in your brain you said, “Was it this?” and it said, “Yes,” because you ask yourself a yes/no question, you know exactly what made you burn out, right? This is how you trust your gut. So, if you're a Generator, ask yourself a yes/no question.

45:17

If you are in therapy or coaching or anything like that, assume before you know anything about people that they're probably a Generator (70% change), so start off asking. Don't ask those open-ended questions. Doing -- I can't remember what they were talking about -- you know, that kind of interview spot where you ask people how they feel? That’s not gonna work with 70% of people! Most people will give you the deer in the headlights. It will work with a Projector, but you're only talking about 30% of the population. You're not talking about the majority, okay? Why do people who are not Generators feel like black sheep (because I talk about that) because the world of Generators says you're supposed to do it that way, you're supposed to work, work, work, work, work. You're supposed to initiate and work and work, but people who aren't, you’re supposed to be instead of do.

46:11

Now, it doesn't mean you don't do any work. I’ve run marathons. I’ve done all these things. I went through medical school. I worked hundred-hour weeks, but that’s not my master path in life. My master path in life, which was found out also energetically if you look on my Human Design, if you look on my scientific hand analysis, is as an intuitive. In my hand analysis -- I don't know if your audience knows about these -- I have eight gift markings and five of them are intuitive. Yes, I do also have a medical stigmata. So yes, I was meant to be a doctor, but my master path is as an intuitive.

Amanda Testa: I love it.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: So, why do I talk about Human Design, because when I tell people I’m just giving you a very high-level type. That’s one little piece of it, right? You go down and there’s a profile on what’s called a 5/1. The 5 -- are you a 3/5?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

47:15

Dr. Veronica Anderson: The 5 is an innovator. So consciously I’m an innovator. Consciously on my Human Design -- now think, I’m a Quick Start instinctually, and intuitively I’m a visionary innovator. Your 5, the first number is your conscious personality. The second number is unconsciously. Well, unconsciously, you're an innovator. Unconsciously. Now, the 3 is for somebody who you're the trial and error person. They call that the martyr a lot of times, but you do things from trial and error, and that’s how you learn. That’s how you're meant to go through life.

So when you learn these pieces about your own spiritual design and see how beautifully you’re put together (and everybody is unique) it’s like, “Oh, my god!”

48:03

Now, the first thing that happens is type jealousy, okay? [Laughs] When you first look you're like, “Ugh, I’m a what?” But a lot of times what happens is you learn what it is, and you're like those answers -- when I found out I was a Projector, it just answered so many questions about the way certain things went in my life and why things were going the way they were and then gave me a way and strategy to flow into how to be seen and heard. I learned how to be seen and heard by following and being who my spiritual being made me, okay?

Now, let’s talk about this in terms of relationships. I’d like to give some interesting examples of relationships.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes, please!

Dr. Veronica Anderson: My favorite examples are King Charles. King Charles was first married to Diana. Well, when you do a composite of their Human Design, they're what’s called a 9-0 couple which means they fill all the energy centers as a couple. Sounds good. They're meeting each other’s energetic needs, right?

49:08

You're like, “Well, what happened?” Now my husband and I are a 9-0 couple like that too. They call it “nowhere to go.” The reason why they call it that is we meet each other’s needs so well, when anybody comes from the outside energetically, they don't feel like they have a place with us. So, a lot of times we’ll even socialize separately because if we don't socialize with other couples, it’s hard because a third person doesn't feel like they fit anywhere energetically, so it doesn't feel comfortable to be around us necessarily. We’re good together. We meet each other’s energetic needs.

People say, “What! I want a 9-0 couple!” Not necessarily, okay? Charles and Diana were a 9-0 couple, but when you go further down the chart and there are those energetic channels, they have only one energetic channel, and those energetic channels will make you feel like, “I want to be with this person! Oh, my god! Ahh!” This is the imperative for reproduction. So, they did have the 9-0 meeting their needs, and they also had a channel there for reproduction. But if you look at the rest of the chart, it’s pretty blank. There’s not a lot of other energetic stuff happening there except for there’s a good amount of compromise on their chart, and that means the relationship’s gonna be difficult, okay? So, I’m not talking about personalities at all here. I’m talking about what’s going on on a spiritual level that none of us can see.

50:32

Now, let me just tell you, Diana, everybody loved Diana and still loves her. I’ll let you know, she was a Projector. They say Projectors have a way of being. Think about Diana. She just had this way of being. You just liked to watch her float around. Whatever she did, she had this way of being. She had this magnetic aura. Let me tell you about Charles’ mother. Queen Elizabeth was a Projector. Think about her the same way. Why did you like the queen? What makes you like her, right? For some reason, there’s something magnetic about her, which Charles doesn't have by himself.

51:16

Now, let’s talk about Camilla with Charles. Camilla and Charles are also a 9-0 couple, so they're energetically meeting each other's needs, but when you look over there on those electromagnetic channels -- I think they have like five or seven of them. I’d have to look. They have a lot! You can see how they are pulling each other towards each other from an energetic standpoint, and they're also meeting each other’s needs when you look at the bottom, the compromise. They have the right amount. Camila and Charles are the spiritual, energetic, right couple over Charles and Diana. They work from an energetic standpoint, and this is why she was there before, and they had nothing. Think about it. He was supposed to be married. She was married to somebody else.

52:11

What happens is you're wondering, “Why am I so attracted to someone,” and you can't explain it. Let's look at your composite chart, and I can show you, “Here’s what the attraction is.” All those tattles and things, they have different meanings, so I could tell you, “Here’s why you're attracted to him and how you feel.” I don’t even need to know you. I just need your birth stuff, his birth stuff, even if you’re an LGBTQ couple, same thing. We put your composite chart together, and we can talk about what’s going on on an energetic level.

Now, I do this because I want you to figure out how to maximize yourself as a couple. My intuitive abilities allow me to pull out of your chart exactly what you need to know when you come to me. So yes, I do intuitive readings, but I love to use Human Design because it’s something people can look at, they can go back to. You heard about this now.

53:10

Now you're gonna go back and look at it in a different way. Now you want to know, “Okay, I want to see my kids, and I want to see what my spouse looks like, and I want to do the composite,” you know what I’m saying? If you're not a 9-0 couple -- people say, “Well, is 9-0 --,” no. There’s nothing that’s perfect. You are who you are.

But what if you're like, let me just say, Kate and William. You know how they're just kind of like meh, right? Well, that’s their spiritual energy together. They're just kind of meh, right? They don't kind of rope you one way or the other put together. They also are able to see eye to eye. They're not a 9-0 couple. I think they're 8-0, and what does that mean? One open center. So, when they have to make a decision or do something, it all goes to that open area. They go to the same way, so they're able to live in harmony because they're solving and looking to the same way to get things solved.

54:11

So you see that there is one other piece. So I talked about instinct, and I talked about what I call intuition and how to learn to use your intuition because once you learn these factors, you're gonna learn how to use them and how to trust your gut. So I learned how to be patient, get recognition. How do I get recognition? And if I don't have the recognition, I know that it’s going to come because I’m here and I’m meant to be a guide. It’s just it may not come fast like I want it to come, and everybody wants things to happen yesterday, but you learn to be patient and the right opportunities present themselves, right?

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Part of doing podcasts is because a year from now somebody will listen to this and say, “I need to know who she is,” and so, they found me and they're able to recognize me and figure out where I am and say, “She’s the woman I need to work with. She’s the woman I need to be in the boardroom. She’s the woman I need to help me with the --,” right?

Amanda Testa: Yep.

55:17

Dr. Veronica Anderson: So, I get on here so I can be with you and be recognized by you, and your voice adds to what I’m saying, your credibility and authority. So, anybody who’s a Projector and doing anything, think about just doing podcasts, right? It’s got to be something interesting that makes you want to be on the podcast, right?

But there’s one other piece that people need to know about in relationships, and that other part is -- and this is the really hard part -- imprinting. I don't know how much you talk about imprinting, and that’s when your subconscious mind is being plastered with everybody else’s ideas and ways of being and all that, and they like to say 7.

56:02

When we look in medical-type things it can happen up to 11, but the formative years of your life, from the moment that you're conceived until you're about 7 to 11, your subconscious mind is there and your conscious mind isn't, and the ways of everybody else is being put on you, right? So what happens with that?

You may have a dysfunctional family, and the imprinting of that dysfunctional family is familiar. And so, when you go out and start looking for a relationship, you end up picking somebody who’s like your dysfunctional family. Why? Because you’re comfortable with it. You're familiar with it from being imprinted. That’s very challenging, but can that be changed? Yeah, but you have to decide that you want to.

Now, I have a relationship quiz called “What’s Your Number One Relationship Mistake?” and there are five types, and there are specifically a few of these types that tend to have this kind of imprinting. I call them the adrenaline adventure and the fantasy weaver.

57:13

You take the test (this takes five minutes), and you’ll get back what type you are. And it talks about what persona shows up in the relationship. Talking about your persona in a relationship, and a lot of times what’s happening is you’re looking for something that’s from that imprinting, and it might not be what you really need from a spiritual standpoint, and so, your relationships tend to not work, nobody’s right, nobody’s perfect. You see people like that. “Why can't I pick the right person? Why do I always keep attracting the wrong person,” right? So that’s talking about when I start looking at that personality -- and why do I do the quiz, and there have been about 37,000 people so far who’ve taken this quiz. So I have a lot of data. For anybody who likes data, get on a call with me, and I’ll tell you the data of the people who’ve taken the quiz.

Amanda Testa: Yep.

58:13

Dr. Veronica Anderson: But, obviously, I’ve learned a lot about how people divided up and how -- in order to come up with the types because this was something that existed before. Think about it. I’m an Innovator. I watched my clients, right? And then I was like, “Okay, what are they doing,” and I came up with the types, and then I figured out, “Okay, how am I gonna test this?” People will take the test over because they won't like their answer, and they’ll get the same answer! You're picking the answer. It’s the funniest thing. You try to trick the -- and they're like, “I wanted to be wrong. I wanted to say you were crazy, but you were absolutely right.” Yes, you're picking the answer. What does it allow you to do? It allows you to reflect and start where you are, and I mean, your name and email might go into the system or usually I just ask for an email, so I don't even know what your name is, but it allows you to anonymously, kind of, look at yourself in the mirror and see, “How am I showing up in a relationship from a personality standpoint?”

59:12

Because you know in a relationship, in the beginning, four people show up: your persona and the real you, the other person’s persona and the real them.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: And you're always trying to figure out who’s who and what’s what. So, it’s very crowded. When you get to the point where you really are comfortable in who you are, you know who you are. That’s why I want you to have a Kolbe. That’s why I want you to have a spiritual guide because then you have something to really know who you are, then when you start living into that, you're really gonna start trusting yourself because then you're gonna start learning about other people and who they are. Now remember, we’re still all on this journey, so there are surprises. You don't absolutely know everything, but just where somebody is by age.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm. Right.

1:00:06

Dr. Veronica Anderson: I mean, going through a Saturn Return or something like that. You can talk about the type of things that are gonna be happening in your life. You can see when I got my scientific hand analysis, Jane Sanders is the woman who did it.

Amanda Testa: Oh, I know Jane!

Dr. Veronica Anderson: You know Jane Sanders?

Amanda Testa: Yeah!

Dr. Veronica Anderson: She’s wonderful, wonderful! But she looked at it, she was like, “You got eight gift markings, five of them intuitive, and I’m just gonna tell you, if you're not doing something intuitive, you are not on your master path in life.” Loud and clear, and guess what? It was before I could even say that I was intuitive or psychic.

Now, for a long time I’d just call myself a medical intuitive because I didn't want to say psychic and I was embarrassed,

Amanda Testa: Right.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Right? I am what I am! And it’s so funny because I work with some corporate stuff, and people like to sort of hide that psychic thing, but I’m just like -- listen, this is the piece that everybody wants to know about, but I’m a doctor. I’ve been in left-brain stuff. I love the data. I’m a 5/1. That 1 is an investigator. I’m an investigator on a level, so I’m gonna have done my work on a subconscious level and be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Fact Finder, and if I’m not gonna give you all the data there, I need to tell you where to go get it, or I’ll be happily saying, “We don't have scientific studies on this particular stuff, but I want to tell you this because it might resonate with you, and you may be the person that goes out later and studies it and validates it in maybe 25 years from now,” right? Because this is how ideas get out there. Somebody’s willing to be courageous enough to stand up and say it. That’s how I ended up coaching.

Amanda Testa: Right.

1:01:45

Dr. Veronica Anderson: I ended up in coaching because people started saying to me, “How do you have the courage to do what you do? How do you have the courage to admit it?” Other people wanted to embrace those other sides of themselves, but I’m like, listen, if you want to get someplace in your career, let’s coach surrounding that. So, that’s why the book is called Getting Seen and Heard in Your Job, and in your job, you may want to move up or you may want to become an entrepreneur, or you may want to do a side hustle. I’m a doctor. I’ve got a process for that too. We’re not doing this willy-nilly. We’re gonna follow a process, okay?

1:02:20

But then when you want to look at your relationships, we also want to figure out, well, what’s a process that you can go through and remember and repeat and go back to different steps of it to be able to get the results that you want? Once you go through this, you really get a deep level of respect and love for yourself. Let’s talk about respect, okay?

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Now, I don't go to church anymore, but I did teach Sunday school. I want you to know, if you studied the Bible, in the Bible, it says for husbands to love their wives and women to respect their husbands, okay? [Laughs] Now, you want respect back too. You don't want just love; you want respect. The only way you get respect is you have to learn how to respect yourself so you’re on an energetic plane of respect. Nobody taught you how to do that. Nobody taught you how to do that, and that’s what this is all about.

1:03:22

Amanda Testa: I think that’s what’s so interesting about these tools because they can help just give you different understandings of how to really be in alignment with what feels right for you. Like you said earlier, “Oh, it makes a lot of sense that I do things this way,” or, “It makes a lot of sense that me and my partner butt heads about this,” or, “It makes a lot of sense that I’m not getting to where I want to be in my career. And so, I’d love if you -- I think this has been so informative, and I so appreciate all that you shared because I feel like now it’s like all right, I’m sure everybody listening is like, “I want to go take these tests, and now I need to figure out how I can work with Dr. Veronica,” and all this. So I’m curious if you wouldn't mind sharing where everyone can connect with you and learn more and find ways to connect with you.

1:04:05

Dr. Veronica Anderson: So, of course, this is all gonna be provided to you. If you have five minutes, you can take the relationship quiz, “What’s Your Number One Relationship Mistake.” You’ll have the link for that. I’m Dr. Veronica. My website is www.drveronica.com, and on there, you can get all kinds of information. There is a section on there where you can scroll down the home page. You can meet me in my video, but I give away things to people for free, such as the Human Design.

Now, people say, “I can do my own Human Design. Why would I have Dr. Veronica do it?” Because, like I said, I’ve got a process here. When I do your Human Design, my team does it, but then we also send you back videos to explain it to you so you know how to start looking at it and reading it. So you’ll get videos that’ll explain about Human Design that you can listen to, and when I‘ve seen it, you can go to the different sites and do it on yourself free, and people look at it and they're like, “Yeah, but I didn't understand it too much. I didn't know quite what to do with it.”

1:05:11

So my goal -- I’m practical, all right? So, if you look at my Human Design chart, I have the right-brain download, conscious and unconscious (part of my intuitive). I’m also what’s called splenic, but I have the left-brain upload, which means I make it practical. So what makes it so that I can coach well is I can download what you need and then be able to give it back to you in a practical form. So, I’ve created tools to help people actually get some type of result.

So when you get your Human Design and you get a video back, the goal of that video is for you to start learning how to live into your Human Design. Why? Because all energetic systems, they’ve got to sink in. You can't rush it. You’ve got to learn patience. You can't study it and get an A because spiritual and energetic things happen on the time of the universe, and you have no control over that, especially when you have weak trust and faith muscles.

1:06:17

Think about how we’ve been taught to trust. We’ve been taught to trust our parents. We had to in the beginning. They kept us alive. We’ve been taught to trust school, education, government, institutions. In religions we’re taught to trust this God that’s outside of us, not realizing that we’re a part of this whole. We’re all connected to source, and the answers are within us, but we’re not told that the answers are there and how to find those. So by the time you get to the end of The Respect Method with me, to the tee, you're gonna know what your trust feels like. That’s the goal. So go take the quiz, get the Human Design done and get the videos.

1:07:09

Now, let me explain something. I hear a lot of people doing work. “I’m working on myself, so I don't want to do anything because I’ve got to work on myself.” That’s not how you learn. The way you learn is not the way school taught you. The way you learn is by doing and then assessing and correcting. So, if you're out of a relationship or you're saying, “Well, I don't need a coach right now because I need to read and watch these videos and do things,” you need to be in action because who is it that said take the first step. In order to course correct, you have to start down the course, you have to start the journey. So, if you are just reading and studying, you're in your cognitive brain and that’s all you're doing. You're getting knowledge. So you have to go from that knowledge to being able to do to be.

1:08:02

Now, think about this. I’m an eye surgeon. I didn't learn to be an eye surgeon from reading a book and watching videos. Did I have to read and book and watch the videos? Yeah, but I learned to be an eye surgeon from being there with another eye surgeon. And first, I had to learn how to look under the microscope, and then I had to learn how to operate and squirt the water. Anybody who’s a surgeon understands you go through this process of one little step at a time, and then you can put it all together. But what happens is as you do that one step, there’s somebody there course correcting you, so you have to be in action. I see so many people that say, “I’m not ready yet. I’m working on myself.” If you are just doing something and you're not in action and that’s not reading a book or watching YouTube videos, that’s out there in the world having experiences, you ain’t working on yourself. That’s your self-sabotage pattern. You know what I’m talking about! I know you know what I’m talking about!

Amanda Testa: And it’s funny, too, because my husband’s in healthcare, and he always jokes that the MedSpring is see one, do one, teach one, but it is. It’s the doing, right? It’s like you have to do. That’s how you learn, you do. You have the experience, and so, I love that.

1:09:15

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Yeah, and then you actually learn how to be. That’s when you’ve changed, when you can be that and you don't even have to think about it anymore. So, when I first started learning how to do surgery, I could hardly look under the microscope and squirt the water. By the time I was a surgeon and I finished, I could have a conversation, listen to music, sing, and operate with both hands and both feet and do it all in ten minutes. That’s how it becomes. I was truly being. It was just part of my habit. So it’s the same thing with everything in your life, and that includes love and relationships.

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much, Dr. Veronica, for all of this luscious wisdom you’ve been sharing, and I’ll make sure for everyone listening, that all of this is in the show notes as well so you can get the link to her quiz. It’s www.drveronica.com, and thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate you!

1:10:06

Dr. Veronica Anderson: Thank you so much for having me!

Amanda Testa: Yes, and thank you all for listening, and we will see you next week!
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[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Gina Gutierrez is an empathy-driven entrepreneur with her sights set on reimagining and prioritizing female pleasure. As the co-founder and Chief Creative Officer at Dipsea, a people-powered story studio that publishes a wide range of erotic, female-focused audio content, she’s passionate about demonstrating why sexual wellness is essential, and how storytelling and imagination are powerful tools that can help women unlock liberating connections with their bodies. Armed with a psychology degree from Duke and a desire to break the stigma that fantasy should be stifled, she’s ready to help women everywhere tap into their sexual powers.

Check out Dipsea for 30 days free at https://www.dipseastories.com/fyff/

Check out her Ted Talk on Sex and Imagination HERE.

Want more support from Amanda? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda⁠ here.

In this 45 min call, we’re going to identify your #1 block to pleasure, why it’s showing up in the way it is, and what to do to turn it around. ⁠
⁠
After doing this work for almost a decade, I can quickly identify the patterns holding you back, and show you the steps to change it. ⁠
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Permission to reach out even if it feels scary. Permission to reach out even if you aren’t even sure you want to do this work. Permission to reach out to explore if this is right for you, no strings or pushy sales tactics here.⁠

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

EPISODE 265:Gina Gutierrez


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

You and I, we’ve shared a lot together from discussions about how to have amazing sex and deeply connected relationships to sharing powerful strategies to amplify pleasure and connection in our lives, but there’s something I treasure above all, and that is supporting you, the amazing person behind all the stories, the one embarking on this fantastic journey towards building an epic connection with yourself, your sexuality, and your relationships. It’s my primary mission to ensure that you have the resources and support that you need so you can never feel alone in this journey, and I want you to know I am right here with you.

1:01

But I want to do even more. I want to make it super easy for you to invest in yourself and your growth and your pleasure.

So, here’s the big news. For a limited time, I’m offering our transformative Pleasure Foundation Membership for 50% off, and this is a big discount because your journey towards more pleasure and connection matters that much to me. I want it to be like a no-brainer to drop in and learn the tools you need to feel more stronger, more confident. I believe this can be the gentle nudge you need to invest in your pleasure and to do the practices to support you receiving the deep connection and nourishment that you want.

So, if you've been thinking about joining The Pleasure Foundation, consider this your sign. To grab this offer, please visit www.amandatesta.com/tpf, and I am beyond excited to welcome you on the inside.

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1:58

So, if you have been listening to the podcast, you may be aware that many women experience responsive versus spontaneous desire in which desire only emerges when you have a really comfortable, stable, safe, highly-erotic context. So, if you are looking for more ways to bring your desire online and enjoy more sexual confidence, you are in the right place!

Today’s episode is gonna be so good. I’m so excited because I’ll be talking with Gina Gutierrez, the founder and Chief Creative Officer at Dipsea. Dipsea is a people-powered story studio that publishes a wide range of erotic, female-focused audio content, and it is so good. She’s passionate about demonstrating why sexual wellness is essential and how storytelling and imagination are powerful tools that can really help women in unlocking and liberating their connection with their bodies. So, yay! I’m so, so happy you're here. Thank you, Gina, for being here.

Gina Gutierrez: Oh, I’m so happy to be here! Thank you for that intro.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and I am curious as we dive in. I always love to get a little bit of the back story a bit about why you feel so passionate about this work and what led you to do this.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

3:06

Amanda Testa: You can give the CliffsNotes version, of course, because it’s a journey.

Gina Gutierrez: [Laughs] Yeah, do you want to just hear five years condensed into an hour? We can do it. I think that first of all, I’m just delighted to be among my people, which are disciples of Dr. Emily Nagoski, so I’m just happy to be here. [Laughs]

But I think that the journey for me with Dipsea started pretty early even though Dipsea wasn't an idea that early. I was in college, and I was talking to my female friends about their sex lives, and it felt like they weren't thinking about sex as about them. They were thinking about sex as, at best, the unit between them and a heterosexual partner or, at worst, only about the partner. I was talking to this friend who was really into this guy, and she was saying, “The sex, yeah, it’s good. I just -- I don't know. I kind of expected it would be amazing because I really like him,” and I asked her what she was thinking about when she was having sex, and she looked at me with this blank stare and said, “You know, I really don't know.”

4:00

That blew my mind. It was such a simple little answer, but it blew my mind that we’re not aware of what’s happening in our minds as we’re having physical experiences, and why would we? Because sex is framed as such a purely carnal, physical experience, and it is, but it’s also a mental and emotional experience.

It became clearer and clearer to me once I had that insight that women were really getting jipped especially because they were more likely to want to focus on the story of us, the chemistry of us, the uniqueness of us, who I am, who you are, that matters, and stories are actually a really, really powerful unlock for a lot of that because you get the narrative wrapper around the chemistry and connection between people that is so fun to hear about.

So, Dipsea was me saying, okay, if Headspace and Calm can change how people feel with audio, wouldn't erotic stories change how people felt not just in those 15 minutes of listening, but throughout the day? Would they walk down the street feeling like they had a little bit more swagger, feeling like, “More people are looking at me”? Would they be more excited to go on a date or more excited to initiate or accept an initiation from a partner? My hunch was yes, and I’m really proud to say that five years later that’s true. They really do help people in those ways.

5:05

Amanda Testa: I love it. I think it’s interesting because we do so often -- I feel like a lot of, especially women-identifying humans are very conditioned to please a partner or just to please in general. And so, taking the time to come back to your own self and be like, “What do I even like, and what are the things I’m thinking about, and what do I want to be thinking about, and what are the things that turn me on to think about, and what are the things that turn me off to think about.” And I also think one of the things I know you talked about, too, is just how the storytelling is a way to kind of shift your mind, right, from the overwhelm and the busy-ness of your day and just all the other things that we constantly are going in there. It’s like intentional imagination.

So, I wonder if you would share a little more about that, about the power of our imagination when it comes to sex?

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, I think you just brought up a couple of really interesting points. The first is we are probably all conditioned in some way to think that it is selfish to put ourselves and our pleasure and what we like into focus, that that actually should be secondary to what other people want.

6:04

That’s like a true, deep cultural value that isn't necessarily all wrong or all bad but does have bad consequences and certainly has bad consequences in the bedroom, and I see that over and over and over. I see that with how people react to the word pleasure. I see that in how people react to the concept of masturbating. There’s a lot of stuff loaded into culture that we’re all learning and unlearning every day.

And then I think with imagination, yeah, it’s obvious that all of us have imaginations. But it’s not obvious that all of us are using them to have better sex lives. And I think that some of the ways that we are great at imagining is creating Pinterest boards in our brains of what we want our future house to look like or apartment to look like. We are so good at that, and we have tools that help us with that actually. Pinterest is a great tool for that, and we love to future-fantasize about what might something be or look like, how should a party feel, how should something happen, but we’re not really doing that for our sex lives, and Dipsea in some ways is the Pinterest for that, right? Like, how can I start to bank the things that feel sexy to me and create more of a scaffold for my fantasy so it’s just more plug and play when I want to use my imagination to get turned on.

7:07

And so, ideally with Dipsea, you’re listening and you're having fun and it’s amazing, and also then Dipsea is something that you use kind of in the back of your mind because you're doing it yourself, and it helps to cultivate that imagination. But among the many ways that we are conditioned, it’s also clear to me that imagination is a little scary for people. “Is what I fantasize about a slippery slope for what I really want? Am I being bad inside my monogamous relationship because I fantasize about someone else? Is this bad?” There’s some layer of is this bad that we really want to help people break free from. Your fantasy is a safe space. It lets you explore and unravel things that you wouldn't do in real life. It lets you yell at your boss in your head in a way that you would never behaviorally do because it wouldn't be good for you or for them. But it’s really important to get it out in your head, right? Like, get that life force moving and unblocked in your body.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes!

Gina Gutierrez: Fantasy’s like that too. It just doesn't have to be a scary, slippery-slope kind of concept. But that I’m just discovering in this journey of Dipsea is a hot topic.

8:06

Amanda Testa: I love that so much because I think it’s true, because oftentimes people judge themselves by what they fantasize about or the things that they desire, and I think it’s so important to kind of remove that lens of judgment, right?

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And I love how you share it is true. When you think about the things that you think in your head, you're not gonna do those things in real life
necessarily, but it’s fun to be able to play in that realm.

Gina Gutierrez: Yes.

Amanda Testa: It’s like a very safe way to play, right?

Gina Gutierrez: And we actually just did this amazing survey with over 7,000 Dipsea listeners and people in our community about sex and dating and relationships and how it’s changed, and we heard from a lot of people that they like to fantasize about things that they don't want to happen in reality. The overwhelming majority of people said, “I like to fantasize about things I don't wish for in my real life,” and the reasons for that actually aren't like fear that someone would judge them or fear of stigma or fear of hurting someone or any sort of external causes. The reason that they don't want to is, one, because it might be fun to. So, it’s just fun. Two, they might not feel safe doing it in real life because fantasy is innately a safe space.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

9:08

Gina Gutierrez: And three, it might not feel pleasurable in real life, but in fantasy it could, and that is just so cool to me. We get to jump on clouds and rainbows in our fantasies and we get to have whatever sex we want.

Amanda Testa: I love that so much because I think it’s true. Oftentimes when we think about things, it is such a fun way to just -- because our body doesn't often really know the difference if we’re imagining it or if it’s real, but we know. But when you have those experiences, when you think about bringing it, some things you might be like, “Oh, you know what? That is kind of fun. Maybe I do want to try that,” and other ones you're like, “No, I don't want to, because I’m sure in real life it’s not gonna be near as good as in my mind,” or there are too many complex tendrils that I don't even want to go down those roads, or whatever it might be, right? So, I love that you can just have fun with your mind.

I love, too -- I think one of the things that’s interesting, because obviously I talk a lot about embodiment, and that’s a lot of the work I do with my clients, but also I do know the importance of using your brain, right? It’s our largest sex organ, and I would love if you would share a little bit more about kind of the statistics on mental framing, why this is a way that’s easier, a lot of times, to help women get aroused, especially if you have trouble finding your desire. I wonder if you could share a little bit more about that if you don't mind.

10:15

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, I think you also brought something up before you even asked the question that’s so important which is fantasy definitely can help you in real life, too. It’s not just a fun fantasy play space. It can also be, “Oh, I might use those words to initiate with my partner in a way that’s sexy,” or, “Oh, I might give or get consent in these ways without it feeling awkward or sticky, and I might ask the person to grab a condom in a way that doesn't feel like it totally kills the vibe.” So, I think listening to stuff that feels like real, aspirational fantasy is really, really cool for making your IRL sex life better. So, I’m really happy that you brought that up.

I think when Faye, my cofounder and I, were first starting to talk about Dipsea we realized that first of all, the research around sex today is very, very limited. It’s clear that there are big institutions that believe that it’s a secondary thing and that there’s a lot more primary stuff that they should focus on. And so, we were kind of finding these disparate pieces of studies and were like, “Oh, that’s an interesting statistic,” and, “How does that pair with this one?” We kind of put our arms around a lot of stuff.

11:13

One of the big sources of stress was OMGYES, which is an amazing platform to kind of help you more anatomically understand what might work from a touch perspective, etcetera. They did some research alongside the Kinsey Institute that found that 90% of women used mental framing, or what they call scenario conjuring, to get aroused.

So, the story that I love to tell around this is someone might say, “Well, I love fantasizing about this famous actor, but I only like fantasizing about them when I know that they don't have a partner because I don't want to get in the way of that, if they have a good thing going.” And so, I think that that’s such an amazing reality where we construct these elaborate scenarios in our mind that help us get in the mood. And you, you know, in doing your embodiment work, the brain and the body are a totally connected ecosystem, and so, maybe you’re thinking body up and I’m thinking brain down, but the goal is that they actually become connected, and fantasy is a path to that greater embodiment, and embodiment is a path to being able to pay attention to your imagination and use that tool that we all have built in.

12:12

It’s not something we don't even need to really learn. It’s in there if you start listening.

Amanda Testa: We already have access to it.

Gina Gutierrez: Right.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so key, just the ease of entry, right?

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, exactly. A lot of the things holding us back are things that are hard, objectively. Shame, guilt, these are hard things to navigate, but if we’re able to put them aside -- and I often talk about a fantasy exercise where when you are fantasizing about something and something pops in that really doesn't feel good, you actually get to think, “Okay, that’s here, and I’m gonna move it to the side. It’s off screen.” It’s okay that it was there, and it’s okay that you’re putting it off screen and that there’s actually some power in that to say the problem isn't what is here. The problem is just being able to focus on what you want to focus on, and you actually get to do that. I think that that’s a pretty empowering exercise when you actually get to swipe on your own fantasies. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I love that visual, too, of just moving it offscreen.

Gina Gutierrez: Right?

13:05

Amanda Testa: That’s such a great way to phrase it because I just like that because it is easy to think, “Oh, gosh, well, there’s this pile of laundry over there,” and, “Oh, my god, I forgot to send that email,” and all the things that pop into our brains --

Gina Gutierrez: Yep, totally.

Amanda Testa: -- at the times we don't want them to.

Gina Gutierrez: Laundry will interrupt sometimes. [Laughs] It’s true. It will.

Amanda Testa: But it’s good to know that you can bring your awareness back to what you want to be thinking about.

Gina Gutierrez: Right.

Amanda Testa: I’m curious if you could share -- I would love if you would just talk a little bit more -- one of the things I love that people might not be aware of about Dipsea is just some of the cool features about it, and can you just share a little bit more in general because I think one of the things that I find so fun is the immense amount of choice and incentives displayed in there, and also just all that you can create such a fun experience for yourself in numerous different ways. So, I would love if you would just share a little bit more about what it is for people that are like, “Well, tell me more about what this even is.”

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, I would love to. So, Dipsea is an app, and it’s a treasure trove of all sorts of stories for all sorts of people. And so, it became really clear to us really early on that people’s sexual preferences are super diverse, and I don't just mean whether you're interested in stories that are queer or whether you're interested in stories that are straight.

14:11

I’m talking about the tenor of the voices of the characters that you're listening to, themes of the stories of what you're listening to, whether you like the characters and what they’re doing. We want to make a world in Dipsea that is as diverse of a reflection of the real world around us as possible.

And so, one of the ways that we do that is we make sure that our voice actors are a diverse representation of the world around us. So, we work with voice actors who come from all different countries, have all different accents. Over 50% of our voice actors identify as people of color, so we’re really hearing the richness of the world, which is really important because, partly, that’s just how we should be representative in media period, and partly because we like to hear ourselves in our stories, and that’s important. And so, we hope that as many people as possible across age or across race and ethnicity, across where you live, what country you live, feel like they find something on Dipsea that hits for them, and that’s a lot of work for our team, but we love to do it.

15:00

We really want to make sure that we have content that feels delightful to you. We have feature sets that allow you to avoid what you don't feel as comfortable with. The expectation setting is really clear in our narrative stories, so if you're like, “Hey, I want to hear a story about a romantic meet cute,” amazing, let’s get you there fast. If you’re like, “Hey, I actually think that affairs and infidelity is really sexy. I love how off-limits it is,” again, regardless of what that means in your real life, right, fantasy’s a safe space. Great, we want to help you find those pieces of content. If that’s really triggering content for you for good reason, you should be able to avoid it. And so, this is what it means to have an app built by female-identifying people, and we’re a diverse team of people, but by people who are really thinking about these things. We want to create a safe space.

So, most of our content are these short, erotic audio stories. They're episodic so you can follow your favorite characters and really get immersed in the world. We have stories where the characters talk directly to you, which is really sexy, right? They're whispering in your ear. And we also have sleep content, and what’s really fun about the sleep content is we take the characters that you love, and we put them in the sleep stories so they are there. They sit on the edge of your bed. They tuck you in. Maybe they're cleaning up dinner in the room next door, and you're just hearing the tinkling of glasses.

16:05

Maybe they're playing the guitar on the porch. It’s very comforting and easeful sleep content. And then we also offer wellness content, so kind of more practical, how might I uplevel my self-touch practice, how much I do some breath work to get myself feeling more embodied, stuff like that.

Amanda Testa: I love that because it really is, it’s like taking the best of meditation and apps that people are used to using, but also adding in more of a sexy vibe, and also just inviting in the choice of what you want and what you need. I love how that’s one of the things I think is so beautiful about it is I think oftentimes when we think about erotic, we have a narrow view of what that can mean, right? Or maybe it’s just sex. That’s just part of a huge spectrum, and so, I love that you have that spectrum available there.

Gina Gutierrez: Is that what you hear most is how people frame erotic is -- tell me what you hear about --

Amanda Testa: Well, I think what I feel it to mean is just like it’s your aliveness, it’s your life force. It’s like enjoying all that makes you alive.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

17:03

Amanda Testa: But oftentimes when it comes to sex or people hear that word and they think more of just like that’s like a sex-only content. It’s something graphic or it’s something that involves bodies and all of those things, which it can.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: But it also can involve feeling the comfort of maybe you're feeling lonely, and you can put on the sound of someone washing dishes, and that makes you feel connected, or it can bring back a memory that feels good, right? So, there are numerous ways to connect to what brings you alive.

Gina Gutierrez: That’s exactly how we like to define it, too. The erotic is just a little bit of an energetic footprint in your own body of what good feels like. And so, you get to feel that in the context of listening to a Dipsea story. You might feel that in the context of self-pleasure, you might feel that in the context of partnered sex, and you also might feel that in a really great conversation with a stranger out at a coffee shop. It’s not even flirtatious, but it just makes you feel good, alive, here, happy. Those sorts of feelings, when they’re fresher, they help you be aware of what you want more of in your life and move towards more of those, and when those memories are father, you forget how good they are, and so, you're not prioritizing them as much.

18:05

It’s like me a year ago with yoga. I was like, “I need to go do yoga. I have to.” There was an obligation. “I must go. I should go.” And then I go, and it feels good, and I like it. Then I go again, and it feels even better, and I like it more. And then I go again, and I’m like, “Oh, my god. I feel amazing!” But you have to get yourself in the muscle memory of, “Feeling good is good. Feeling good is good for me.”

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Gina Gutierrez: “I like this.” [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I love that so much. I’m such a huge fan of pleasure in all the ways that you can receive it. And so, I’m curious though, too, because I know you mentioned this earlier, and I kind of want to circle back to when you were talking about shame, like people might have shame around listening to content like this or downloading an app like this, hear all the things that come up. I’m curious what you might be able to share around that.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, shame is so personal, just like what you like in sex is so personal. So, the reasons why shame might be very present in your life come from all different sources. You know, we talk to people all the time, our customers and people in our community, and we hear they might have come from shame-based education. It might have come from lack of conversations around sex with parents and then, therefore, kind of inserting stories into the silence.

19:05

It might have come from traumatic experiences. It might have come from watching media and seeing what bodies you saw and the interactions you saw were not you, and therefore you must be wrong. There are all sorts of ways that it comes to us, and so, I think doing some exploration around what your version of that baggage is, because everyone has got it, is really, really helpful, and also just taking into account that the society we live in and the power structure that we live in is a huge contributor to that, too. So, the society that we live in unfortunately is still priming the world for white men. That’s true. And so, if you’re not a white man, you know, we love white men, too. We want them to be happy, too. But we want everyone to be able to feel that their version of “I cum first” actually is okay because if we have a lot of people thinking about “I cum first,” not in the sense that I’m willing to steamroll other people, but if I put my priorities first and I identity what my wants and needs are and I’m good at that, then I actually get to bring more of myself to other interactions. I get to be better for my kids. I get to be better for my partner. I get to be better for my students, whatever interactions you have with the people around you.

20:07

And I think that is the ultimate unlock to removing all those feelings like, “Listening to sexy stories is wrong or bad for me,” or, “Too much pleasure is too much of a good thing.” You get to start seeing the benefits, feeling the benefits, not just for yourself but for the people around you, and then you're like, “Oh, okay, okay. This isn't selfishness. This is just putting my oxygen mask on first.” But that takes a while. It’s a journey. We have to be gentle with ourselves. It takes a while.

Amanda Testa: It’s so true, and I love that, just giving compassion to yourself.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, always. It’s a journey. That's a journey I’ve personally been on through Dipsea. It's been so interesting being a founder of a company talking about these things and coming back home and being like, “Am I living that out loud right now? Is that true? Am I being compassionate to myself? Am I putting my own pleasure first?” And it’s a helpful lens for me, you know, being close to it all the time. I just ask myself the question.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. I’m curious, too, from your own experience, maybe if you could tell a story about an example of how you bring more pleasure to your own life.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

21:04

Amanda Testa: Like when you ask yourself that question, what are some things that you do?

Gina Gutierrez: I brought up yoga earlier because it’s been such a journey for me over the last year. Yoga to me started as an obligation. “I should do it. I probably should exercise. I am told I should exercise,” right? [Laughs] And then I go and I feel the endorphins that are natural results of sex and exercise, and then I keep going back and I start to watch my body be more under my control and also watch the ways that it hurts more in certain ways and I respect that it hurts more and I don't push it, and I’m just paying more attention to what’s happening in my body, and I’m more aware of what’s happening in my body and what that really is is coming home into my own body.

Now my mantra at the beginning at every yoga class is, “I’m home. Come home to yourself,” and that’s so deeply pleasurable for me to have a moment where I’m inside it, like the body is me and I am the body, which doesn't always happen when you're like tip-tapping at your desk or, I don't know, rushing to get in there and done before they close at 5:30 or whatever’s happening. But that’s a huge part of my pleasure practice.

22:02

Another thing is friendship. I want to be laughing with friends as much as I humanly can. A year ago I moved into a cohousing group. I live in Oakland in California, and so, there’s more of that probably here than there is in other places, but I felt very lucky to move into a place where I get to see friends every day and I eat dinner with people at least five times a week and I’m laughing a lot, and that is medicine for my soul, and that feels like my version of pleasure that is not erotic, that is literally the fire of my life and makes me want to be more erotic, too, because I feel more like I’m here with myself. It’s all connected.

Amanda Testa: I love that so much because I feel like at the end of the day the end result is connection.

Gina Gutierrez: Yes, yes.

Amanda Testa: I truly believe it’s the end result.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah! Yeah, which makes me think a lot about flirting. You know, another thing I think we feel afraid of in the world besides imagination, one, pleasure, two, is flirtation. Flirtation to me is just like energy exchange between people. It doesn't have to mean, “I’m interested in you. I think that we should have sex one day,” at all. It could literally be like, “Hey,” to the person bringing your mail and just being friendly and exchanging the spark of, “You're alive and I’m alive and isn't that awesome?”

23:10

That flirtatious energy, I think, is a huge part of why laughing with friends actually matters. It’s just a broader scope of what flirtation is just like we were talking about. A broader scope of eroticism brings up a whole new set of stuff that you might not have previously considered. So, I’m very pro-flirting, but I use a different definition than most people. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I’m with you there! I feel the same. It’s around that energetic exchange and connection. Even this morning I was noting -- I went for a mammogram, and I think there are little touches. This makes me feel like there’s definitely a women-identifying person behind this office because you go in -- and I think this is how, when it comes to pleasure, these are the kinds of things I think about. What can I do to make this experience a little more pleasurable?

Gina Gutierrez: Mm-hmm.

Amanda Testa: And I love when you think about that in different contexts, like even asking yourself, “Am I living this?” For example, today, you know, they have low lights. The robes are warmed before you put them on.

Gina Gutierrez: Wow.

24:00

Amanda Testa: They have soft music playing in the background. You know, they are super communicative and kind. There are healthy snacks and water in the waiting room. All those little touches, that, to me, makes something that can feel really stressful a lot more pleasurable.

Gina Gutierrez: That’s amazing.

Amanda Testa: Right?

Gina Gutierrez: Can you tell us who your provider is?

Amanda Testa: They're Health Images. I know that there are a lot of them. I’m not sure if they're all over the US, but I know they're regional in Colorado, Health Images. Each office is different even, but I love that. I think it’s so beautiful that they think about that because we can do that too! When we’re dealing with stressful situations in our lives or life feels hard or at the end of the day, what can I do to make my experience a little more pleasurable? Maybe I want to listen to a story --

Gina Gutierrez: Right.

Amanda Testa: -- while I’m washing the dishes. That’s what I love about Dipsea as well is because, you know, it’s audio, so you can listen to it when you're doing other things. You could be walking the dog. You’ll definitely probably be a little more smiley to the people walking by.

Gina Gutierrez: Watch your step. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Right? But just how you can weave in pleasure and make it easy and doable. I love that about it.

25:05

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, I think about that with rest a lot, too. I think there’s a lot of resurgence of we should rest more post-COVID, which is awesome, and everyone’s kind of calibrating what that actually means to them, but I think when you're really, really productive for a couple of solid hours and then you need 15 minutes to just absolutely veg, great. Take those 15 minutes. That is pleasure. That’s exactly what you need, and yeah, those little details like you described in that office where you got your mammogram, those details actually make a huge difference, and they're not hard to implement.

This is actually a great one. This is so silly but so cute. There’s a team member, they and I are always cold. We just run cold. Sometimes I’ll come on and I’ll just kind of have my shoulders up around my ears on Zoom, and they’ll be like, “Are you cold?” and I’m like, “Yes,” and they're like, “Go put some socks on right now,” and just putting socks on is such a silly little thing, but it is actually taking care of yourself, and it actually feels better, and then you actually are having less of a bad time just putting socks on.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Gina Gutierrez: And that I just think is so cute. It’s as simple as socks? Amazing.

26:04

Amanda Testa: I love it, and I think isn't there some study around women orgasm more when they have socks on when they studied MRIs?

Gina Gutierrez: There is!

Amanda Testa: Probably because they're comfortable and they're warm!

Gina Gutierrez: I learned about that from Alexandra Fine at Dame. I love that information. Yeah, exactly. Temperature is a factor. Great, take care of it. I love that.

Amanda Testa: I actually have a blanket in my lap right now because I’m like --

Gina Gutierrez: Amazing. I love that.

Amanda Testa: I’m doing the same!

Gina Gutierrez: I love having a blanket underneath the Zoom zone. That’s my favorite.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Gina Gutierrez: [Laughs] And guess what? I’m wearing socks.

Amanda Testa: Oh, my gosh. I love it. Yay! On that note, I think it’s funny because we live in Colorado. It’s often cold here, and it is hard sometimes to feel relaxed and want to open and enjoy sensual experience when you're freezing because it does. You're tight, you're cold.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: So, this is a helpful tip for anyone out there is we got a mattress warmer. It’s like an electric thing that you stick on your mattress, and it preheats the bed. We call it preheating the bed.

Gina Gutierrez: Amazing.

Amanda Testa: So, we’re like, “Preheat the bed!”

Gina Gutierrez: I feel like that has to have an impact on your sex lives.

27:03

Amanda Testa: Totally. Oh, yes. It’s amazing.

Gina Gutierrez: That’s amazing.

Amanda Testa: So, I'm just like for any cold people that run cold out there, you might want to check that out.

Gina Gutierrez: It’s true. Cuddling is nice for getting close, but it’s a different sort of avenue. Cuddling is like a desperate, “Please come here! I’m so clenched. Help me be warm,” which is different. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Oh, yes, and we always laugh about that because it is so cold. We’re like, “Ah! It’s the best.” So, anyways.

I think, too, you know, speaking of fun things you can do with a partner is, again, I think inviting in these erotic stories is a really good way to play with fantasy with your partner, too. Obviously first you want to know what you like, yourself.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And then you can invite your partner into the party if you so choose.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah. So, if you're like, “Is Dipsea for me,” if that’s a question in your mind right now, which Dipsea is such a new thing in so many ways, so I totally understand that question. We have listeners between the ages of 18 and 65+. We have a huge range of listeners that are happy here. Most of our listeners are millennials, but we have a huge range of listeners, which we feel extremely proud of. We have listeners in every country in the world, which is just absolutely incredible, and we have 50% split between people that are in relationships and people that are single, so this is not a product for single people or for people in relationships.

28:12

It really does serve both those groups of people, which we also think is really exciting. If you're like, “I’m queer, is there enough content for me,” there definitely is. We’ve made a huge effort to make sure that we’re constantly balancing the output. We have stories that are about threesomes and stories that are about queer people and stories about Black love and stories about all sorts of things. If you might feel like, “This is what I’m really looking for,” you’ll find it on Dipsea. So, just letting you know if you have a modicum of curiosity, I’m sure we have something that you’d be really excited by.

But with partners I think, yeah, what we hear most from people is Dipsea’s a solo listening activity, but it gets people really excited for sex. So, it’ll be something that people do in the car driving home before they see their partner, or they’ll listen to it in the bathtub before they are with their partner, things like that, or they’ll send their partner a story and use it almost as a communication tool. It can be a little awkward to be like, “Would you want to try this?”

29:00

It’s way easier to be like, “This story was really sexy to me,” and let them connect their own dots as the beginning of a conversation, which I think is pretty exciting. And then if you're like 401/801 level, if you're ready to move out of the intro class, listening together is really fun too, but I think it does help to have some baseline of what do you like and what do I like and what might the middle be.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s true. I think it’s a fun way to do something new, and especially if you're in a long-term relationship it’s a fun way to invite in some different play.

I remember the first time (I feel like years ago before I even started doing this work, so this was, I don't know, 12+ years ago) my husband and I have been together for a long time, but we got a tip from a book around listening to erotic stories with a blindfold and just kind of inviting in, and I think it’s such an interesting way to play with sensation, too, right? Because our audio, just that aspect of just focusing on just the sense of your ears, I think it’s a powerful thing.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, what we like to say is audio is the most intimate, immersive, and imaginative medium there is, so if you want to imagine them in a certain bedroom, you get to do that. If you want to imagine their body types a certain way, you get to do that.

30:12

It’s so intimate because it almost sounds like the voice in your own head. It’s almost happening as if it’s in sync, you know, the headphones are in your head and it’s all happening with you, you're a part of it in a pretty special way that is really, really incredible and I think an unlock for people that are used to erotic media being something that you kind of consume at face value on a screen and often feel like an arms-length from for many different reasons.

Amanda Testa: And I think that’s so important, too, because also just the ethical way it’s produced is important to a lot of people like me.

Gina Gutierrez: Very much. Very much. Yeah, all Dipsea content is recorded by trained voice actors recording from booths and studios all over the country, all over the world, really, and they're getting really gentle, attentive direction from our team in their headphones, and those voice actors actually aren't even being recorded in the same room.

31:00

So, people are having an individual opportunity to tap in, tune in, and be the amazing actors that they are, and then in post-production we stitched them together to sound so amazing together. You know, sometimes the Dipsea team is like, “Wow, we really want Jack and Gia to meet one day,” because the chemistry that we’ve created between them is incredible. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Oh, I love that. So, I’m curious, too, if you might be willing to share maybe a couple other tips that you have around what specifically -- a lot of the listeners here in my podcast are women-identifying people -- so specifically for vulva owners, what are some other tips to maybe help them feel a little more sexy in their skin?

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, I think a lot of it is creating up front structure around how you want to do that, and that sounds so deeply unsexy. So, let me just say that to start. Planning time to be sexy sounds unsexy. I get it, and I was there for a long time where I was like to plan sex with a partner or to plan time with myself is like an anachronism: “aren't I already doing it wrong?”

32:03

And I think I would say to that, “Absolutely not.” So, if you're like, “Okay, I have a Saturday where my kids are away, and I want to use that Saturday to focus on my own pleasure,” that is a huge, huge step in your own journey to feeling more embodied. Then you get to start trial and erroring. What makes you feel more in your body, and what didn't really work even though it should, right? There are going to be plenty of shoulds. Yoga might work for me, and it might really not work for you, and you don't need to do it 15 times to decide that. Just listen. [Laughs] Is it working or is it not? It’s a trial and error I think is another thing. Very unsexy, but if you allow yourself to try and say, “That’s not it. Something else is it,” the authenticity of how you feel is what matters. That’s the guide, not the set of rules that a blog said, “You should try XYZ,” right? That blog might be 30% right for you, that might be 90% right for you, but it’s up to you.

So, I think planning is a huge part of it. Planning sex, I think, with a partner is a huge part of it. Having a consistent date night if you're in a long-term relationship is really great.

33:00

Thinking about the ways that you can find sexual partners to feel close to and feel safe with, if that’s what your current lifestyle is, amazing. Figure out what that path is. Strategize a little bit so that when you're in the moment, you just get to enjoy.

So, I think the up-front work, the trial and error, those are huge. And then a lot of it is just being comfortable with how you like and want to be touched and talked to. And so, I think listening to stories like Dipsea is a really, really great way to do that. Logging that in your own mind when you really like what someone says or does in bed so you can ask for it again is amazing, or paying attention to what you like to feel when you're touching yourself is also really important because our memory’s not great, right? It’s not so automatic that we know exactly what we want at every given moment. We have to start being more aware and thoughtful and intentional about what it is so we can communicate it back out.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about what good sex is and how people perceive what good sex is, and I think we give way too much of the credit to partners and partnered sex, even when we’ve been with someone for a long time, and they ostensibly should know us very well and probably do.

34:03

But really, we’re the owners of our own universe, and it actually kind of is our job to be like, “Hey, that’s kind of changed.” [Laughs] “I know I used to really like that, but something about it has changed for me.” Getting comfortable saying that gives the other person the feeling that they might say that too. You're just tossing back and forth this openness and this bid of how it could be, and that’s really powerful too. You know, we get to change. We get to update.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and it always is changing, right? Especially as we go through different seasons of our lives, different cycles of the month, different cycles of the year, whatever it is.

Gina Gutierrez: Yep.

Amanda Testa: So, I love that. It’s like being empowered to speak your needs and know what they are, which comes through time and trial and error and making that space.

Gina Gutierrez: And Dipsea.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, Dipsea.

Gina Gutierrez: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: So, is there any, perhaps, question that you wished that I would have asked that I didn't ask or any last things you want to share with the listeners?

Gina Gutierrez: I mean, I would love to hear you describe your experience of Dipsea as someone who focuses on embodiment. What did it bring up for you? What made you feel more curious? What happened when you listened?

35:04

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I mean, I enjoy it because I am always looking for -- I have some tried and true pleasure practices that I always go to. I love working with different tools, but I like to play with different opportunities depending on my mood and what do I want. I really love that about Dipsea as well because there are so many options about what am I in the mood for, what would feel fun. Or if I’m just feeling tired and I don't want to think or do anything, I’m just like I just want to listen and enjoy, you know? I don't have to think, and that feels good.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I can just choose to enjoy. I don't really watch TV. I’m probably unique in that way. I don't watch TV. I very rarely watch TV, so I love to just find other ways to entertain myself, things like this. Some people are like, “Ah, I just want to relax and watch TV.” I’m like, well, I would just prefer to relax and self-pleasure or do something that feels good. I don't have a lot of alone time, but when I do, that’s what I prioritize, and it makes a huge difference in my life, in my relationship, because that's why I think we need to prioritize our pleasure, and we don't do that enough.

And so, that’s what my experience has been. It's been a really beautiful way to add into a practice of pleasure.

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah.

36:10

Amanda Testa: And it’s been really fun to do with my partner too. We love to listen to stories. Maybe in real life we don't want to have a bunch of people in the bedroom with us, but we can pretend, or we can fantasize about it or listen or whatever bites our fancy. That’s what’s so fun about it.

Gina Gutierrez: So, you have listened with your partner.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Gina Gutierrez: That’s amazing! I love to hear those stories. Yeah, you know, I am a TV watcher, I think partly because media is media and I want to see what people are into, what’s happening.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, totally.

Gina Gutierrez: And also partly because I love TV. But I think that these shows are so sexy these days that are really becoming more like you can feel that they are written by people who have more of a sense of this isn't just about male pleasure. Even with the silliness and over-the-topness of Bridgerton, you can see how the thematics, the fact that women are getting oral sex, it’s just like we’re moving. Things are happening, and that’s awesome.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes.

Gina Gutierrez: But there is still this removal between me and it, and it can feel a little bit conceptive in a way that sometimes just makes me feel like I hit the button to turn it off, and I’m like [Gasp] whoa, where have I been?

37:11

One of the things that I really like about audio is that it’s a little bit more participative of you. It demands a little bit more of your imagination, enough so that you’re not calling the shots, that they’re actors doing their thing. You get to relax, but your brain is moving. You're thinking. You're engaged. And that, to me, is something that I never could have predicted to be true of Dipsea. I’m not some sort of audio expert and have that understanding innately, but it’s such a delight to have discovered that it doesn't necessarily feel like you just sucked an hour away, right? It feels like you are a part of this, and you are more connected to yourself, and man, cool, the fact that audio gets to do that is just like a really magical unlock.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love that. So, and yes, not to say anything bad about TV watching. If you enjoy it, all means, do what you need for yourself. But that’s just my personal thing. So, I just want to name that too. And I’d love, too, if you can just share where people can find more about you, more about Dipsea, where they can sign up and all of that good stuff.

38:07

Gina Gutierrez: Yeah, totally! So, Dipsea is spelled D-I-P-S-E-A. If you go to www.dipseastories.com you can learn more about the product. If you go in the App Store if you have an iPhone or go in the Play Store if you have an Android, you can download the app. You can listen to some free stories to decide, “Is this the product for me,” before you decide to subscribe, and we have annual plans, and then for commitment-phobes we have monthly plans. So we have all sorts of options for you to find what you need, but I’d also love to share that if you go to www.dipseastories.com/fyff you’ll see an automatic 30 days free applied so you can explore to your heart’s desire for 30 days before you decide if you want to subscribe, so check it out!

Amanda Testa: Yes and thank you so much for offering that. I highly encourage you to check it out. It’s so much fun. Enjoy. Enjoy!

Gina Gutierrez: If you want to learn more about my perspective on sex and imagination, I did a TED Talk last year that you could definitely listen to.

39:00

It’s called Sex and Imagination. Google my name. Which is the classic me on a red circle talking in the TED-ish way about these topics. It was really, really fun to write and conceive, so if you're interested, definitely check that out, and yeah, I hope that you listen, I hope that you enjoy, and I hope that there’s more pleasure for you out there than you ever imagined.

Amanda Testa: Ah, thank you so much, Gina. Thank you so much, too, for all who are listening. I will make sure to put all of this in the show notes, as well as your TED Talk, Gina, which I watched, and it was so good. So, I love that practice, too, you took everyone through, so I’ll encourage you to go check out her TED Talk as well. Yeah, and thank you so much for being here.

Gina Gutierrez: Thanks for having me. It was a treat!

Amanda Testa: Yes! We will see you all next week!
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[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Shirin Etessam is an entrepreneur, seasoned media executive, and transformational speaker. She has produced films, original television series and specials, created several companies, and led campaigns for some of the world’s most recognized companies (ABC, CBS, Discovery, BBC, Facebook, Apple, Intel, Virgin, and many more). 

A proud member of the LGBTQIA+ community, Shirin founded OML TV, a popular platform dedicated to streaming and curating quality, queer female, video content and OML Originals, a female led production company telling diverse female stories through a vast spectrum of film and television genres. 

Today, Shirin guides seekers in her six-week program, Free to Be, to disconnect their human “being” from their human “doing” to find true and lasting fulfillment. She lives in Marin County, California, with her wife and two children.

Want more support from Amanda? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda⁠ here.

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EPISODE 264: Shirin Etessam


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hey, what’s up? It’s Amanda! If you're enjoying this pod, and you know you are ready to say yes to more pleasure, and you are just wanting to know, “How the hell do I do it,” well, you’re in luck because as of now, we have spots available in The Pleasure Foundation, which is my pleasure membership where twice a month you get an amazing practice that teaches you how to drop into your body, to become more connected to yourself, and to learn the art of sacred self-care. So, if this is something you're interested in, go to www.amandatesta.com/tpf (as in The Pleasure Foundation) and we will see you there!

_______

1:00

Hello, and welcome to the podcast! This is your host, Amanda Testa, and from an early age, we’re often taught that to be worthy, to find true happiness, and to be “somebody” we must accomplish many things, right? We have to check all the boxes. We have to make all the wins, get that family, get the career, get all the things that we need to do. Yet often, when we have checked these boxes, there is a lot of deep unfulfillment.

So, I’m super excited today because I am going to be talking with Shirin Etessam, and she is a very talented entrepreneur. She has done so many amazing things in her life. She is a seasoned media executive, a transformational speaker. She has produced films, original television series’ and specials, created several companies and more. As well as a proud member of the LGBTQIA+ community, Shirin founded OML TV, a popular platform dedicated to streaming and curating equality, queer, female video content and OML Originals, a female-led production company telling diverse female stories through a vast spectrum of film and genres.

2:06

Anyways, needless to say, she has definitely checked all those boxes and more, and she is now guiding seekers into her six-week program, Free To Be. What we’re gonna be talking about today is the power of disconnecting your human being from your human doing and to find true and lasting fulfillment. So, settle down, get yourself something cozy, and listen in and enjoy.

Welcome, Shirin! I’m so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for being here. I’d love for -- if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about -- obviously our stories are long and varied, but if there’s a little bit of a Cliffs Notes version that made you so inspired to write this book because, as I was just mentioning about how so many of us get to a certain point in life, we’ve done all the things that we have been told to do, checked all the boxes, and we’re deeply unfulfilled. I can resonate, and I know a lot of my listeners can, but I’d love if you would just share a little bit more for you about what kind of inspired you to take this turn in your career, so to speak.

3:12

Shirin Etessam: Definitely. Well, first and foremost, thank you for having me on your show. Cliffs Notes version of the book: you know, I think that the catalyst for me writing the book was a big breakup that I had at the end of 2013, but I think even bigger than that, I really feel like we, globally, are missing a fundamental conversation about us being human, like everything we do is on top of us being human, and we keep being reminded that we’re very human and we keep on ignoring it. [Laughs] Whether it is the pandemic, whether it is any sort of crisis, we are shown over and over again that we are connected, that globally we are in various levels of crises, and we continue to ignore it.

4:18

Especially in this country, we become really polarized. So, instead of combatting that, is there a different way of approaching life that is holistic and fulfilling and kind and compassionate and also practical, you know? That you're not going and sitting on some mountaintop or joining some Ashram in order to find some sort of peace, you know? But can that be done in the here and now.

So, that was kind of what propelled me into some really deep soul searching, because when the breakup happened, I had friends who said, “At some point, you’ll be grateful for it.”

5:10

And I’m like, “How?” But I really am because I feel like it opened up an entirely new world, new universe for me, and it made me realize that it’s really possible to find a place within one’s self where we are wise and kind and empathetic, but to get to that place, there is just a whole poop load of digging that needs to be done. So, there you go. I don't know if that was Cliffs Notesy at all, but there you go.

Amanda Testa: Yes, well, I think that it’s so true. What you mentioned really struck me, when you were talking about our just being reminded of our humanness.

6:00

Because I was actually laying in bed yesterday with my husband, and I was like, you know what -- I was feeling really stressed because we had a lot to do, and he was going out of town, and I was like, “Well, let’s connect,” and I was sitting there, and I was like you know what is really sad? All these things that really matter like connecting, spending time just being with someone that you love, spending time just letting your kid cuddle on with you without worrying about all the things, those things don't get rewarded in our culture, right, especially here in the US. If you're not productive, then that’s not acceptable.

And so, I’m curious for you, I love how you also said you don't need to go spend two weeks in an Ashram or you don't need to go live alone for six months in Bali or whatever it is, which, of course, is beautiful if you could do that. But for most of us, that’s not realistic or sustainable or we are in where we are, and we have the community that we’re in, and we have the people around us, and we have the things that we have to deal with. And so, being able to find ways to connect to that deeper part of you in our regular life is so important.

So, I’m wondering for you, kind of what were the steps? How did you even know what to even do?

7:05

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, what do you do?

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Shirin Etessam: You know, it’s interesting because I’m on a bit of a crusade to change the word spirituality, and I always say you don't say mentality, you say mental health or mental wellness, so why isn't it spiritual health and spiritual wellness? So, when you say spirituality, it becomes super woo woo, and I like woo woo, but that’s not spirituality overall. It’s truly spiritual health, and I also believe that mental health and spiritual health go together. But all to say that in my early days, I would call it -- I have terms for various things, and at that stage, I called it bobbing for spiritual apples because I didn't know. I don't know what I needed. I didn't know what to do. Mind you, I was what I call a half-assed spiritualist up until then.

8:01

Yeah, I did what I call spiritual window shopping, which is basically dabbling in spirituality whenever convenient. We were just talking about going to a retreat or wearing some sort of Tibetan jewelry or whatever it was. It was just convenient -- or whenever I was in trouble, right? So, anytime I was on my knees, I’m like GOD or the powers that be, please step in here. But otherwise I wouldn't be.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Shirin Etessam: So, I very much believe in practical spiritual wellness, which is integrated into our day to day, and I think that the how is super important because people are like, “Follow your bliss,” or, “Follow your heart,” which is a misnomer that I can talk about. You should not follow your heart. You should follow your soul.

But in the early days of -- I mean, the breakup happened -- literally it was a 13-year partnership, and it was a 20-minute conversation and it was done, which I don't need to go into.

9:13

But given that the kids were five and seven at the time and I had invested everything into the relationship, and I mean everything, it really threw me into an abyss, an abyss of nothingness, and it wasn't about healing a broken heart. I felt like everything was broken. And it was interesting because I live in one of the most affluent places in the country. I had a seemingly gorgeous partnership, beautiful kids, great community, great friends, various lofty-sounding positions, I had created companies, I had awards, accolades, all of that stuff, and I just felt empty.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

10:02

Shirin Etessam: I felt empty, and I just had no motivation. So, I was really cracked open, and there was nothing there. It was an abyss of darkness that did not end for days on end and weeks then months. A lot of things shifted. I resigned from this -- I had a VP position at a startup, and I shifted a lot of outer things, but I knew that the work was internal. But I didn't know how, and I had read books and all of that, so I did a lot of bobbing for spiritual apples, and I had some realizations, some major, major realizations. And so, basically, it’s not so cut and dry but pretty much the first six years of the soul searching were pretty intense and very intentional.

11:05

And so, I basically took those six years and shrunk them down into six weeks because, really, if I knew what I was doing, if I was handed the book that I wrote -- and not patting myself on the shoulder. Maybe a little bit. But if I had that and I trusted it, the process would have been -- I don't think it would have been six weeks and then that would have been it, but I feel like it would have made things a lot easier.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Shirin Etessam: Maybe not. I don't know, but I feel like it would have made the path a lot clearer than it was. So, how I did it, I don’t really know. I mean, I was kind of grasping like, “Okay, this feels good.” In the early days of the breakup, my hashtag, my motto, was “better than this.”

12:04

So, if the next minute I’d felt just a tiny bit better than I was feeling the minute before, that was an improvement. So, you talk about small steps. Tiny, tiny, tiny steps.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. That sounds like, too, you know, part of it was giving yourself that permission to be in the darkness and the depth and the shadow and the pain of it and just kind of finding what helped you feel a little better. And now that you are on the other side, you have this lifeline for people that are in that space where they're just lost and grasping and bobbing. I love that term, bobbing for spiritual apples. Trust me, this can help you.

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, I mean, I do not think -- I frankly don't know of a single soul who has healed without stepping into the darkness, and it is not fun. It is dark. It is scary. It’s often super lonely. But it’s so worth it, and you make friends with it, right? The way that I used to deal with it, people call it your shadow, your dark side, I used to just suppress it, and I think most people do that because it’s not comfortable, and we live in a culture that kind of promotes that, right?

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

13:21

Shirin Etessam: You know, well, like, “Living my best life.” It’s like okay, that’s great, but even one’s best life -- I have days that still suck. We are human, and we are always evolving.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Shirin Etessam: But there is a difference between living a very intentional life and being on that path of healing and having a tremendous amount of acceptance and gratitude and ignoring it and hoping for bliss or whatever it is. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Right, well, and I think it’s interesting, too, because you talk about this as well as kind of that spiritual coma of just not -- yeah, I think, too, all the maybe up here in the air. I’m moving my hand around because a lot of times when people think spirituality they think it’s all up here and something outside of me, and what I think, what I love -- when I’ve heard you talk about the importance of these daily practices that we do and that it is a practice.

14:20

That’s what that making it realistic and showing up for your spiritual health, that health part is showing up for whatever’s there, right? Whether it is a dark day where you're feeling super upset and you feel like you need to cry for two hours and you let yourself have that time or you feel like maybe you have five minutes and you’ve got to get to a meeting, but you give yourself those five minutes and then you move on versus shoving it down and shoving it down and just powering forward, which isn’t healthy either.

Shirin Etessam: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: So, I’d love if you’d talk a little more, because I love how you talk about practice, and I think that’s such a powerful thing, these little daily practices.

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, so, in every chapter of the book (and it’s basically week one through six plus an intro) there are various set daily exercises that -- and the intention of those is really to make the book experiential so that the difference between, “Oh, okay, that’s a nifty idea. I’ll try it some time,” to committing to actually doing the process, like if you're gonna do it.

15:25

And when you start physically doing things, I really realize that I love retreats actually, and I’ve been to so many of them it’s just that I don't just rely on that. So, I want to make it clear that I love retreats, and I’m all for them as long as there are also daily practices.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Shirin Etessam: But I really realize the experiential -- I did The Hoffman Process, which some may be familiar with, but talk about experiential, my god. I mean, at some points it ends up feeling a little surreal, you know, the things that you do. But then you really get it, you know?

16:09

So, instead of thinking like, “Well, how would I feel if I was doing cartwheels,” you know what I mean? Your thinking about cartwheels versus doing cartwheels is entirely different. So, that’s what the purpose of the exercises are.

I have one consistent exercise, which is called The Daily Purge, and it came from -- I don't know if you’ve read Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way, but she has this thing called The Morning Pages, which I did religiously, like, 20 years ago, and it’s fantastic for one’s creativity, and basically, it’s three pages of anything, and you do it in the morning. But what I realize -- and I like writing, but a lot of people have a really hard time with writing, have a really hard time with meditation.

17:08

So, it’s whatever is freeing for people, whether it is skipping down the street or jump rope or dancing or doing pirouettes or doodling. Whatever it is, it’s, minimally, six minutes of just literally purging every negativity, anything that’s in your mind that says, “You’re too old,” or, “You're stupid,” or whatever. The majority of our thoughts are negative and they're repetitive, so all that just literally vomit on either while dancing or on pages and such. So, you clear your slate for the day and then begin it.

So, again, super experiential because you can't -- I mean, I think that is one of the biggest issues that we have globally is that even when we know we’re in crisis we try to battle whatever we’re in crisis with with our minds, which has proven over and over doesn't work.

18:21

Whether it’s on the political level or on the UN level, it’s not about opining and whether some person agrees with the other. It’s like could it be that that level of wisdom and connectedness has nothing to do with our minds? So, therefore, we do our very best to clear our minds and then get on with our day.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I love that so much, and I think it’s such an impactful thing to do to start your day just releasing all the things. I think, too, I’m also a big fan -- anyone that listens to the podcast knows I do a lot of somatic trauma resolution in my work. And so, using your body to move things in whatever way feels right to you, if it is writing or doodling or dancing or shaking or whatever it is for you, it’s so powerful to bring that in.

19:14

Half the time you don't even necessarily need to think the thoughts because you can just let your body do what it needs to do, and you’ll move through things without even having to go there, which is even better, right? I mean, of course sometimes you need to go there, but not always. Your body’s wise and knows what to do, so I love that practice of just showing up for yourself every morning, and the practice part is so key because, you know, we’re practicing, right? You're not gonna get it perfect. You're not meant to. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. It’s just practicing.

Shirin Etessam: There is no wrong or right way of doing it.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Right?

Shirin Etessam: I mean, the whole idea of being -- it’s sort of when you step into that world, you really are a practitioner, you know, in that it is in the practice of it and there is no end. It’s the unfolding. So, it isn’t -- we joke about “the journey isn't from here to there; it’s from here to here,” you know?

20:12

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I love how -- you mentioned this earlier, just to come back to talk about the power of connecting to your soul and what that means and what that looks like. And so, I’d love if you’d share a little more about what does soul work mean to you. What does that look like, connecting to that part of you?

Shirin Etessam: You ask some very good questions. So, I think that people often get the soul and the heart mixed up, and my second week in the book is dedicated to the heart, and the heart is super, super important. But truthfully, the heart is -- I mean, they talk about the inner child, that is your heart. I call it your inner puppy. [Laughs] Because all it wants, all the heart wants is to be acknowledged, to be seen, to be held, and to be loved.

21:06

That is it. That is it. I don't think one’s heart is necessarily wise. If you're making a critical decision, they say that all decisions are emotional, and I believe that, but I think that we often assign the wrong tasks to the wrong parts of us. We let our minds lead when it should really be the heart and/or the body lead when it really should be the mind and so forth. And so, it’s good to distinguish those, and hopefully I do in the book. I just lost my train of thought. Sorry.

Amanda Testa: Like assigning the right parts of you the right job, and so, when you are tuning into the soul versus the heart.

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, but I had -- sorry, can you ask the question again?

Amanda Testa: Yeah, it was what does it mean to you to do soul work or to connect to that part of you. What does that look like?

Shirin Etessam: Thank you.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

22:07

Shirin Etessam: Thank you. So, the soul is unique from the body, heart, and mind. And so, the first half of the book is purely clearing the slate, decluttering the mind, tending to the soul, understanding our relationship with our body so that you clear your way, you lift all the muckety muck that is in your mind, in your heart, in your body, so that you have a clear slate to get in touch with your soul. The way I define one’s soul is it’s our unique star. It is our unique imprint in the universe, and there is no other like it. So, the spirit is whatever -- I mean, people believe in different -- whether it’s a higher power or God, Jesus, Allah, whatever it is, I consider it a higher power or spirit energies within the universe.

23:16

That is different than one’s soul. The soul is unique to us; spirit is all that’s out there that connects us.

So, soul searching is the dance between our soul and the spirit and finding that connection. So, you dive in deep, you find that place within you, and we, frankly, are born with it, right? All that vitality, the joy, all of that, we are tapped into our souls as youngins. And then we have what they call a dissociation, whether because we don't feel worthy or we want to fit in or whatever it is, we all have different levels of dissociation, and then we start going into our heads, and it’s all so celebrated, right?

24:08

You get all of the good grades, and you graduate from this and all of that, and the soul just slowly starts shrinking. So, it’s finding that place again and then beginning to live from that space, trusting it, and then connecting with everything else, which is the spirit.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Shirin Etessam: Without sounding too woo woo.

Amanda Testa: I love it, and I’m wondering for you, too -- because something that you mentioned a few times is being able to trust that part of you. What do you think that means? How, for you, did you start being able to trust that part of you more?

Shirin Etessam: Another great question. In some ways, I feel like I didn't really have a choice. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yeah. Yeah.

Shirin Etessam: It just felt right. When I tapped into it, it felt right. It felt like I wasn't grasping elsewhere, I wasn't trying to find answers somewhere else outside of me.

25:16

It just felt right, and I thought, “Oh, my god. If I just sit here in this space for the rest of my life, it would be okay,” you know? And then trying to expand it a little bit more and expand it a little bit more.

So, I think one knows. Musicians call it being in the flow where it’s sort of like when you first fall in love or whatever, it’s that feeling of being fully alive and connected and being in gratitude without trying to manipulate something. You just feel it, you know? You go with it.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. I love that because I think it’s true. For me, when I can connect with that part of myself, I just find myself kind of following the choices that are supporting me.

26:12

So, I don't know if you’ve ever heard of that cartoon Mr. Magoo. It's an old school cartoon. But basically, everywhere he goes something rises to meet him. So, he’s stepping off a building, but then there’s something that rises, so he never falls. He’s always in the right place at the right time. I kind of feel like it’s like that because you're listening to yourself deeply. You're kind of tuning in like, “Is this really the right choice or not? Do I really want to do this or that? Do I want to eat this or do I want to go down this road,” or whatever it is, to be more granular about it, I think that’s what’s so important about it is it helps you to know when you're making the steps that are right for you versus, oftentimes, we might feel things that don't feel good, but we just push it down or keep going or kind of not listening to the edges or the things that are trying to guide us, and then we end up in situations where -- I think a lot of times when people come to work like this it’s because they are in a big period of disconnection or loss or transition.

27:07

They're forced to look, but I think what’s even better than that is kind of tuning in before you have to, right? Most of us don't do that, but if you can -- that’s what I love about your book. It’s like here’s what to do. Anyways.

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, and I think that it’s also good to keep in mind that we live in the world that we live in. So, it isn't that you tap into that inner space and then suddenly you have, hopefully, a new glow about you, but it isn’t that the troubles of the world disappear, you know?

Amanda Testa: Not at all.

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, there’s that emotional scene of Wonder Woman walking through the battle ground, and I believe that is a true warrior, and we become spiritual warriors in that way.

28:07

So, we are truly inoculating ourselves with as much power as possible as we walk through the world, and hopefully in us walking, we do a whole lot of good as a result of it, and that’s truly it.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Shirin Etessam: And that’s also one of the reasons why I say that spiritual wellness needs to be integrated in our daily lives and made super practical because, again, I love retreats and such, but when you go to retreats, and I know that many retreats get dark and such, but it’s this kind of controlled sanctuary, you know? People are there for the same objective and all of that, which is fantastic, but that is not the real world, right?

29:10

You can feel really connected and all of that and then you drag your kids to school and you get cut off, and then you're upset and all of that. So, it’s how does one walk through life as an everyday warrior, you know?

Amanda Testa: Right. I love that so much, and thank you for clarifying that, too, because that is the big -- it is not like just everything's all roses and great, but when you're in alignment at all, I think it’s, too, being able to feel the depths but also then not let that take you out. Then you can have the power to do something about it. You move forward and not from a way of surviving but from a way of standing really strong.

Shirin Etessam: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s a huge point, and then you do feel braver to do things that are scary or show up on protest or do the thing because you’re not closed down and hunkered down and too shut down to do anything.

30:07

You are strong, and you stand up for what you believe in, and you do the things that need to be done, right? It’s like that replenishing the fuel, so I love how you clarified that. Thank you. And I like how you were like it’s inoculating yourself with your own power. That’s such a great phrase.

Shirin Etessam: Well, and, I mean, the truth of it is that it’s like this life is tough. It’s challenging for everyone. I mean, certainly much more challenging for some than others, but it’s challenging, really, for everyone. We can’t gloss over that. I mean, that is spiritual bypassing, you know? So, how do we live from the inside out and remain connected to this planet and the world we are in and not ignore the very critical issues that are there and hopefully contribute in a positive way and be a change agent.

31:17

All of that is not easy. How do you accept things as they are and yet want change, you know what I mean? But I could easily argue that there is no way that you can make a change unless you accept things as they are.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Shirin Etessam: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s true. It’s like there’s the acknowledgement of just the truth of things, and then moving from there, right? You have to be with what is to be able to make a change, too. I think that’s so true, like you say, having that acceptance part.

Shirin Etessam: Absolutely, and I also want to add that I truly believe that there are different levels of people with different levels of consciousness on the planet, and I think that there is a lot to learn from others.

32:21

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Shirin Etessam: One of the -- I don't want to call it a mistake, but one of the ways that it’s a different mode of spiritual bypassing is following someone blindly.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Shirin Etessam: Any true spiritual wellness thought leader would tell you that they don't have all the answers. None of us do.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Shirin Etessam: None of us do, and I think this is also important to point out and hopefully I’ve done so in the book.

33:09

One’s process has to be customized, you know? What works for you may not necessarily work for me, the same way that somebody will do a certain diet, and it’s like, wow, it worked perfectly for them, but it doesn't for someone else, or you go to the gym and you follow somebody else’s and you put your back out. It doesn't work for you. You have to figure out what that is. I think that spiritual practice is the same, so you have to really explore what works and truly honor what it is that you need, and if you have that level of clarity where you're tapped into your soul, it will tell you.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. I think, too, a quick thing I want you to talk about because I think this is also just relevant, too. When you're trying to find the answers, you can be kind of in that seeking mode of taking in a lot of information, and then we also are overloaded with information.

34:13

So, how do you discern what’s right to take in, which is also listening to your soul, but I’d love to hear what you have to say about that.

Shirin Etessam: Oh, my god. I start the book out that way. So, our minds, oh, it’s the biggest culprit. So, the first week is mind, second week is heart, third week is body, and there’s a reason why I put the mind first because the Buddhists call it monkey mind or you could call it the gremlins in your head, like just chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, right? And not only that -- so, we’ve got the endless chatter in our head. Now, more than ever, we’ve got it coming at us 24/7, whether it’s through the phone or through TV or so many different ways.

35:03

Even teachers and people, we are fed content all the time, and in the book I call it infoxication, which is actually there’s nothing foxy about infoxication, but it’s basically content overload, and what that does is it doesn't allow us to think or decipher clearly because we’re so weighed down in what I call mental junk food. So, one has to decide what it is that we allow in and what we don't. I never watch -- well, there is never the TV on in the background in our house ever, ever. I’m very selective about what I watch. I don't watch the morning news. I think that being aware of what is happening globally and locally is very important, but I read different news sources and I try to get all different sides.

36:09

But I do that and I don't watch it because I don't like anything manufactured to us. So, point being that we have to regulate what we watch and don’t watch, what we listen to, what we take in, because the same way that if we eat a bunch of junk food, it’ll have its repercussions, it’s the same with our minds. Just because content is coming at us doesn't mean that we need to absorb it. So, I am very, very clear. I do that with everything, not just information, but even people that don't need to be in my life. I wish them well. [Laughs] But it doesn't mean that they need to be in my life

Amanda Testa: Right.

36:58

Shirin Etessam: So, we decide, and again, it’s truly about having extreme compassion for ourselves and what we need and the trust that that compassionate, loving person that you are cultivating will be much better for the world, whether it’s on a family level, on a work level, on a political level and such.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I love that.

Shirin Etessam: How’s that for a long answer?

Amanda Testa: I love it! It’s so important and so good. I’m wondering, too, is there maybe a question that I didn't ask that you would have loved that I’d asked or any last words you definitely want to make sure that the listeners can take in?

Shirin Etessam: No, you asked really great questions. I think just the awareness that there is a different mode of being that is much more fulfilling than checking boxes. You could still check boxes, and my to-do list is endless, but it’s where I sit and where I come from on a daily basis that makes a huge difference.

38:15

So, I think that and then also truly realizing that it is a practice that needs to be integrated and it builds, right? So, the same way that you go to the gym, you workout a certain muscle, it gets stronger. If you practice spiritual wellness on a day-to-day basis, it will get stronger and it will build on itself. It is a practice, and it is a journey, and, again, it is not a journey from here to there. It’s a journey from here to here.

Amanda Testa: I love that. Yes! And so, for all of you listening, Shirin’s new book out, Free To Be -- I want you to share a little bit more about where they can find a little bit more about you and all the things that you have going on because I think what’s so great about it is, like you were saying earlier, it’s great to just look at something or read it, but you actually have to do the whole thing. Stop and take chances.

39:11

Do the practices and all the things. So, where can they learn more about you and your work?

Shirin Etessam: Yeah, thank you. So, everything is pretty much my name. So, www.shirinetessam.com. My social on both Insta and TikTok is @shirinetessam. I have a private Facebook group called “Inner More” that is slowly growing. In that, we get a little bit more in depth and you have to be invited to it, but if you find it and you're interested, please request an invitation, and I will most likely accept. The book is coming out June 20th. You can find it on various platforms. Amazon might be the easiest, but it’s Barnes and Noble and a lot of independent bookstores. If you can find it in your independent bookstores, please buy it there!

40:07

I also love interactivity, so DM me, ask me questions, send me an email. Whatever it is, I’d love to connect!

Amanda Testa: Beautiful. Well, thank you so much, again, for being here, Shirin. I do highly recommend that you check out her socials because they're great and she has tons of good info on there. I’m actually not on TikTok. I am the last person on the earth, but boundaries, boundaries. But I love your Instagram, so I’m sure your TikTok’s good too! [Laughs]

Shirin Etessam: They're pretty much the same.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Shirin Etessam: It’s just a different audience, yeah.

Amanda Testa: But I will make sure to also put in the show notes where you can find the book and connect with Shirin and all that good stuff, so thank you all for listening, and thank you so much for being here.

Shirin Etessam: Thank you so much for having me on your show!

Amanda Testa: Yes, and we will see you all next week!

_______

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Michaela Lambert is a Transformational Love Coach and Dating Empowerment Mentor for smart women who are single in midlife and struggle with dating, but who long to attract an emotionally healthy partner for a lasting relationship.

She understands the pain that women feel when putting themselves back out there because she's been there herself! When tragedy struck in 2010, she found herself single and ready to date again a few years later - and it became the catalyst to her midlife journey of self-rediscovery. After a 4-year-long exploration of the modern dating world, she attracted her second soulmate, Steve, on POF in 2016. They are now blissfully married and live in a blended family home with their 4 children in the south-west of England.

Michaela is the founder of The Savvy Dating System™ which she uses to guide her clients to prepare for soul-aligned love by helping them to connect with the goddess inside them before they embark on an exciting, empowering and FUN dating journey that will lead them to their right-fit partner within a few months.

Grab her Guide, The Five Secrets to Midlife Dating HERE, and in it there are also some journal prompts to really help you get that clarity of what you're looking for, and there are just some really quite juicy tips in there!

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EPISODE 263: Michaela Lambert


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

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Hey, what’s up? It’s Amanda! If you're enjoying this pod, and you know you are ready to say yes to more pleasure, and you are just wanting to know, “How the hell do I do it,” well, you’re in luck because as of now, we have spots available in The Pleasure Foundation, which is my pleasure membership where twice a month you get an amazing practice that teaches you how to drop into your body, to become more connected to yourself, and to learn the art of sacred self-care. So, if this is something you're interested in, go to www.amandatesta.com/tpf (as in The Pleasure Foundation) and we will see you there!

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Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the podcast!

1:01

If you are finding yourself unexpectedly single and not sure how in the world to navigate the dating scene in midlife, or maybe you're struggling to believe that finding the love you truly desire is even possible after a loss or heartbreak, then today you're going to be in luck because today’s episode is gonna offer some hope and some inspiration. I’m very excited to introduce you to my guest today Michaela Lambert!

Michaela is a transformational love coach and a dating empowerment mentor for single women in midlife who want to attract a quality partner for a lasting relationship. And so, she’s gonna share more of her story in a moment, which is just a beautiful story, and also because she’s been on her own journey and also a teacher and coach for over 20 years, she really wants to help women to navigate this modern dating world, especially in midlife, and how challenging it can be. So, we’re gonna dive into a lot of that today. So, welcome, Michaela. Thank you so much for being here today!

Michaela Lambert: Oh, it’s so great of you to invite me. Thank you so much, Amanda. I’m really happy to be here and to share this. I’m looking forward to this.

2:02

Amanda Testa: Yeah, well, I think it’s so important because I think there are so many people that can relate to being in a position of unexpectedly finding themselves single, and I would love, if it feels okay, for you to share a little bit more about your own story and why you’re so passionate about this.

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, for sure. So, I mean, my story really goes back to the beginning of 2010. So, I was happily in a long-term relationship with George, and we were living in Mauritius, which is a tiny little island in the Indian Ocean, a beautiful island. We had two young kids, and I just had my last son (my second son). Literally, he was a baby when one Christmastime (end of 2009) George got a cancer diagnosis of stage four lung cancer, and this just completely rocked my world. I mean, it was just devastating. So, I was 37 at the time, still on my maternity leave, and just thinking how are we gonna get through this.

3:06

So, we did what we could at the time, and unfortunately the medicine that was available on the island back in 2010 wasn't really as great as I believe it is now. So, just heartbreakingly, in the August of that year we lost George, and that was just as if I just went into the darkest of phases ever. I know that you can relate and understand this, but there I was, just a single mom, all of a sudden. It was just in such contrast to the idyllic life that we were living at the time out in Mauritius.

And so, you know, I hung on. We sort of stuck around in Mauritius for a couple of years because that felt right. It allowed us to feel really connected to George’s memory.

4:02

But then I really began to feel like I was kind of living in a fishbowl because it seemed like everybody on the island knew me as part of a couple that didn't exist anymore, and it’s such a small community, it’s such a small place, there was no space to kind of start again, have that fresh start that all of us (me and the kids) really needed.

So, I took the decision to just pack up everything, sell everything up and move back to the UK, which is where my roots were as well. I have roots in Mauritius but also in the UK. That’s when, about a year after we’d sort of settled in and got over the shock of living back in a cold country again, I felt like, “Yeah, actually I feel like it’s good for me. I think I want to start dating again.” And oh, my god, it was the biggest shock to my system because 2012, I’m now 40 by this stage, and I’m living in the middle of rural England, a small town.

5:10

I’m just like I have no idea where to begin, and I think, “How do we even meet guys now?” You know, I’m like, “I’m so out of my comfort zone!” [Laughs] You know, the last time I was dating -- if I ever really did date. I don't think I did, but you know, I was in my early twenties. I was living the life, living the dream, going out, meeting people easily, and now there was nothing -- I just couldn't see a way through it.

So, I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna bite the bullet. I’m gonna do this online dating thing,” and, wow, it was like a jungle. I really felt like it was a jungle. I put up a profile, didn't really have much idea what I was doing, but I thought, “Well, I guess I better put some pictures up,” and oh, my gosh, just the comments that you’d get from your photos and men thinking that they’ve got the right to do and say and send you photos of all sorts of things.

6:01

So, yeah, it really just was an eye-opener, and I just was like, “Whoa, this is unreal.” But I went with it, and I think I spent about two years really in the dark. I mean, totally in the dark, but I approached it with this learner mindset. So, I was following different coaches. I was getting their courses. I was reading their books. I was my own coach, really, pretty much, and I learned really quickly that why I was making these big mistakes, why I always ended up being ghosted, why I was making these mistakes of chasing men. And then one day my youngest son who, by that stage, was five years old (so he’d just started nursery/kindergarten, whatever), and he’d noticed that his little friends were being picked up by their moms and their dads sometimes, and he just turned to me, and he said, “Well, where’s my daddy? Why haven't I got a daddy?” Then his next question, which really just hit me right in the heart was like, “Can you get me a daddy?”

7:10

It was with that question, it was such an innocent question that I was like, “God.” I felt like, oh, I’ve just been dating for me, really, because I just felt that loneliness. I missed that companionship. I missed that connection with a man in my life. I really missed that.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michaela Lambert: And I really wanted that, but I actually wasn't seeing the big picture, and I wasn't seeing how really having another male presence in all of our lives, how actually the boys had missed that, too, you know?

By that stage, my oldest son was 14 and the youngest, as I said, was 5/6. And so, that’s when I sort of went, “Okay, I’ve been going about this completely the wrong way. [Laughs] I’ve just been looking for the wrong thing in the wrong way, and this is what I’ve been ending up with. So I’ve got to do things differently. I’ve got to get myself really, really clear,” and this is how I really sort of went through the steps that I now teach, and it’s a system.

8:16

Literally within about a month the quality of the men who I was dating improved by 100%. They were quality men. They were men who were family minded. They really shared the same values as I did. I realized I’d been dating like a 20-year-old, like someone who was just in college still, and that was the mindset I still had because I hadn’t really dated. That was what I associated with dating. You know, he’s got to be cute, he’s got to be this.

Then actually I had to say when I first got back into dating I didn't find men my age or older attractive. I really only found men who still looked like as if I was in my twenties attractive, and so, I went out with men in their twenties. I thought that that was kind of the level I was on in that sense, dating-wise, so ugh, yeah.

9:09

So, boy, I grew so much, I just have to say, with the dating experience. I learned to really date in a way so that when I actually met Steve he sort of knew from literally our second date that he didn't want to let go of me, that he had found his person. He just said, you know, I sort of dated him to perfection. Every date that we went on as it progressed had him more and more and more hooked, and he just couldn't believe that I was single and that this was -- whereas from before I’d been coming from a place of, like, “Oh, nobody wants me and I’m just always gonna be on my own,” that then having done the work and the switch completely shifted things.

Yeah, so we met in 2016, and we’ve been together -- we were married in 2019, and we’re still going strong, and it’s lovely, and it’s a wonderful relationship. Yeah, and I call him my second soul mate, and he was the inspiration, really, behind my business, which is called Your Second Soulmate. Yeah, so, that’s a bit of my story, Amanda.

10:22

Amanda Testa: Well, first of all, thank you so much for sharing that. I love that name Second Soulmate, and I also am so sorry for your loss of George, and just in all of your journey that you went to heal and move on to find love again. It’s so inspiring, and I know it’s not easy, and so, it’s brave.

Michaela Lambert: Thank you.

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too -- because I think a lot of times it feels really hard to, and so often women won’t, or they’ll hold themselves back or they just never remarry or put themselves in that position. I’m curious, first of all, why do you think women hold themselves back, and what do you think helped you to move past that?

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, so, that’s such a great question, and it’s a question that’s got one very simple answer, but it’s got so many different shades to it.

11:08

So, the very simple answer is it comes down to fear, Amanda, you know? I can't remember who says it, but anyway, it’s well known. So, fear is the complete antithesis, the opposite of love, and when we are stuck in fear, which is really almost the darkest place to be in, it sets up a cycle. So, because women feel fear -- and you can feel fear for so many reasons. You know, maybe you’ve had a past relationship that’s scarred you, that’s wounded you, that’s left you with these wounds. Perhaps it’s maybe you’ve always held yourself back from love because some of your needs were never met in childhood, and you’ve got these patterns that you’ve set up so that you’re only ever attracting a certain type of man who, then, it just perpetuates a cycle.

12:05

So, once you're in fear, what tends to happen is women shut their hearts down and they protect themselves, and this is the natural reaction. It’s the fight, the flight, or the freeze. They either run away (they hide), or they freeze (they shut down), or they can also fawn and just turn into real people-pleasers, you know? It’s like they just abdicate their own needs, completely give themselves away or they can be really adamant and belligerent like, “I don't need anybody! I’m independent! Nobody’s gonna treat me that way again!” And so, there are so many levels to it. But, ultimately, it all just comes down to fear, and it’s pernicious, and it creates procrastination. It stops women, in particular, wanting to put themselves out there. So, there’s that fear of this being visible again, that fear of being hurt again or being rejected or being abandoned, so many different fears, but ultimately fear. So, yeah, that’s really the answer to that.

13:07

Amanda Testa: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I’m wondering what you think helped you move through that. How do you help other women when they're in this spot? What kind of advice could you give or how can you support them?

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, so, I think there are a number of ways of working with this. So, fear is really the emotional stage that we move through, but we also have a lot of kind of blocks. We set a lot of limits on ourselves mentally in our minds. So, actually being able to really open the heart, I think you have to work on a number of levels. So yeah, I guess in my system, we work with really helping women to get clear on what is it that they really want in the same way that that was what moved it for me because I hadn’t even realized that I was holding myself back from actually something that could be an amazing relationship, and as a result, I was attracting all these duds and I was going on these dead-end dates, and once I got really clear, then actually this is what I needed -- I needed a family man.

14:09

I needed somebody who wanted to step up and be a father to my kids, and every woman will have completely different needs. A divorced woman may be thinking, “Well, my kid’s already got a father. That’s not what I’m looking for,” and that’s actually fine. So, this is a completely individual thing.

But yeah, so getting really clear, making sure that you are also, then, working on clearing your clutter. So, any patents that you might have that need to be overhauled, because you end up in the exact same situation, and this is the universe telling you that this has got to change. It’s just giving you information. So, working on those and all of that I would class under the mindset, and then another part of it is actually working on your self-worth and really understanding that you are the prize, and this is a big shift as well for a lot of women because maybe they’ve been in an abusive relationship, or they’ve had a narcissistic parent who’s really chipped away at their self-esteem and their self-worth throughout the whole of their life.

15:17

And so, they can't really see what they have to offer in a relationship to somebody. And so, there’s that piece to work on as well.

Then I think we can start working on the fears. I am a real fan of EFT tapping because I think it can break through a lot of different layers, so that’s the sort of work that I do that really helps to shift different layers of fear really quickly. This is all about, really, the inner work, but then the last part of it is about really raising your own vibration and really connecting, and this is why I love what you do as well. Finding that feminine goodness inside of you because that’s where your power center is.

16:05

So, once all of those pieces are together, then you’re coming into dating from a much, much stronger position, and then the rest is really just strategy and tactics. You know, once you’ve worked out what’s important to you, what your values are, and what you're looking for. I guess that’s maybe another piece as well. So, in the what are you looking for, it’s like you say that that’s important to you, but why have you been picking all of these guys -- [Laughs] all the cute guys or whatever, you know? And, yeah, of course you want to find somebody that you're attracted to, but if you’re only valuing chemistry and you're not looking at the deeper aspects of this person, and even finding out if you two are actually compatible with each other and if he meets your needs and if you meet his needs, then chemistry I think can only really get you so far.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, well, I love that, and one thing, too, that I think is just so important that you mentioned earlier is around how when you first went back to dating, you were dating you were dating like you were in your twenties, and it is something to realize what does it look like to be the mature woman who knows what they want a little more, and granted, that is hard.

17:14

Like you say, getting that clarity piece, that sometimes is the hardest thing for people because we, as women in a patriarchal society, don't often get that luxury of knowing what we want based on whatever it may be, but just getting that clarity. I’m curious, too, what helps people be able to step into that more mature version of themselves?

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, that’s a really great question. You know, I think, ultimately, life is a really good teacher.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Yes.

Michaela Lambert: And I think if you’re somebody who continually is just finding yourself dating the same kind of guy, the same guy with a different face, but it’s exactly the same situation, and you're stuck in this pattern, then really the common denominator is you.

18:01

So, there’s something within you that has to shift. There’s something in you that is attracting these men to you or even if you’re having the experience where you are feeling invisible online, you're being passed over, it’s like well, yeah, that’s really -- you’ve got to always be asking yourself, “Is this the kind of experience that I want to be having?”

Amanda Testa: Right.

Michaela Lambert: And if it is, great, keep doing what you're doing. If it’s not, change it.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michaela Lambert: It’s as simple as that, really.

Amanda Testa: I love it, and I would love if you would speak to one thing because I think this is a common thing that people -- it’s not necessarily true, right, but people like to just make these generic statements and believe them like, “Oh, there are just no good single men out there for me,” or, “People on apps just are lying,” and all the things people think, right? I would love if you would speak to that for a moment.

Michaela Lambert: Oh, my gosh. I would love to. I would love to. Well, this is kind of -- modern dating culture, we can see it as being a very toxic culture.

19:08

We have this sort of illusion of just abundance. You know, you go, and you sort of scroll online. I mean, sometimes you can scroll online and think, “Oh, my god. It’s slim pickings. There’s no one here.” And sometimes you can go on and it’s like, “Oh, wow.” But anyway, either way, that toxic culture, you reflect it in how you’re thinking about it. So, it’s very disposable. You're sort of swiping left, swiping right, and you're not really stopping to -- it’s very superficial. So, I completely understand women who say, “I don't like online dating. I don't like how it feels. I feel like a commodity,” and I totally get that. I totally get that. However, there are smarter and savvier ways to use online dating as a tool. So, for me, it’s a tool. There are so many ways.

20:05

I remember eventually the way that I found success and I got my power back -- so I love sites like Bumble which give women a little bit more power in that they sort of make the decision, and they have to make the first move, but you can go incognito on a number of sites, and that means that nobody gets to see your profile unless you are making that first connection to somebody, in which case, your profile gets shown to them only, and then they can make the decision. So, there are so many ways. I mean, it’s a tool. That’s basically what I was saying, and you wouldn't say, ugh, I don't know, all spades are XYZ just because -- no! They're there to serve a purpose. Really and truly, just while I’m on my dating soapbox, the apps are there as a business. They're there to make money. They want to keep you on there as long as possible.

21:03

It’s really not in their interest, despite what their marketing says, for you to find somebody quickly. So, they are designed to be frustrating, confusing, overwhelming to navigate. So, that is why it’s so important to be clear on what you're looking for and to go about dating in a way that really is the most time and energy efficient for you. You know, you do not need to spend hours scrolling endlessly, mindlessly. This isn't really social media. But if you go in there and you're really smart about it, you can find it’s very easy and quick to connect with some great guys really quickly and set up some actual in-person dates really quickly, you know -- get meeting people, get out there.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s a big part, too, is the practice of it, right? Getting back in the practice, especially if it’s been a really long time. You know, maybe you haven't dated in 20 years, and you're like, “Well, this is definitely like wearing high heels after never wearing them or something,” right? Toppling, you might trip. There is the learning.

22:08

Michaela Lambert: It totally is, and I think that what we need to do as women, especially women in midlife, we need to give ourselves that grace that we’re learning. It’s a skill, but it’s like riding a bike. It comes back to you really quickly, but you have to sort of take it at your pace. You have to make sure that whatever you're doing you are showing up authentically. So, just taking the high heels example. If you have not worn high heels, like I haven't I think since before I got pregnant the second time. That was when I decided, okay, I’m just not comfortable in high heels anymore, and I’m really short. I’m under five foot, so I kind of need the extra height, but I just can't walk in them anymore, so it’s like, okay, I’m gonna own the fact that I am four-foot-ten, and I’m gonna be wearing some little boots maybe with a little block heel just to give me a little bit of height, but I don't need to make myself uncomfortable on this date. I don't need to -- you know, it’s really about just knowing yourself.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

23:10

Michaela Lambert: I think that’s the superpower of a woman in midlife.

Amanda Testa: Oh, yes.

Michaela Lambert: She really knows herself, and she’s coming into her power anyway, sexually and in all sorts of ways, and I think that it’s the ideal time to actually be dating because it’s like personal development, you know?

Amanda Testa: Right.

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, you're putting yourself out there!

Amanda Testa: Yes, it’s true!

Michaela Lambert: You're getting to know people, and you’ve got to know how to navigate this, you know, in a really clever way. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I like how you say that. It’s a really powerful time because I think, too, especially after you experience loss or heartbreak, and you grow and you're in a new place and probably a lot more wise than you were in your twenties. Also, like you say, you know what your values are more, especially if you have a family.

24:07

You know what you're looking for when you can give yourself that gift of being true to yourself. I think that’s another thing about when you're younger that, oftentimes, you might still be just trying to please, or put on a costume, or, “This is how I think I need to look when I’m dating,” or, “These are the outfits I think I need to wear to be sexy,” but it’s like, “No, what is gonna make me feel good? What is gonna make me come alive,” versus trying to look a certain way, right?

Michaela Lambert: Definitely. Yeah, that’s absolutely it.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, well, I’m wondering too, as well -- I think because you have done so much work on this -- and you’ve created this kind of simple way to go about it, right, because it can feel very overwhelming like, “I don't even know what to do!” You're like, “Okay, here are some of the steps.” So, you've kind of gone over a few of those, and I’m wondering if maybe there’s one other piece of advice that you could offer that you think that these women need to hear?

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, okay, so, I think -- there really is so much I could say. I’m just trying to pick something out. I would really say that it’s like anything. There’s no cookie-cutter way of dating. What is gonna feel right for you is not necessarily gonna feel right to somebody else. However, with that said, if you're somebody who wants to, let’s say, find somebody -- let’s say you're in your early forties, and you’d still like to find somebody and have a family, let’s say you've never had kids before, and you've got your own time crunch because you want to find your right person really quickly, then you're probably gonna be dating in a slightly different way to a woman who’s in her fifties and she’s slightly more relaxed about it.

So, in all cases, the thing to remember is that you want to make sure that your values are really strong, your standards are really high, and your expectations are really low.

26:01

Now, I know that this is maybe a little bit contentious and controversial, but because women are like, “No, but I’ve got really high expectations. I need to --,” but it’s like, no, you want to be going into each date with a completely clear slate. You want to have zero expectations that this is gonna be going anywhere because when you’re coming from that place going into a date, you can only ever be pleasantly surprised at whatever happens and look for the good. You know, when you're looking for the good, you're aware of what your deal breakers are. You know what you're not willing to put up with, and you’ve kind of been honing your judgment and discerning skills, but I think having those clear sort of boundaries around yourself really elevates you in the eyes of men because men really -- I know this is a big, broad blanket statement, and I try not to make them, but it’s really hard when I’m talking to women who are dating predominantly men, and I do really only work -- I haven't yet worked with any homosexual women at all, but what I wanted to say is that a real currency of men that they really value is respect.

27:17

So, they want to feel respected, but in order to value you, they want to see that you respect yourself more than anybody else. So, when they see a woman who’s got really strong boundaries in the sense that they're not walls, because we don't want to see a woman who’s got walls and is just trying to protect herself all the time, but she knows exactly what is acceptable and what is unacceptable for her, and she’s not afraid to affirm those boundaries and do it in a way that maintains respect for him. And I think that is really like a key. That’s a really vital key, and I think when a man can see that a woman has that self-respect herself, but she could also respect him, he knows he’s got somebody who is a little bit out of the ordinary.

28:10

So, just to come back to the woman in her early forties who maybe wants to date efficiently because she’s on a time crunch, one way that I would really suggest that is to be multiple dating, and it’s something that, for our generation, perhaps, and older, when we were in our twenties or whatever, there were real double standards around that sort of thing. It was kind of understood that men were gonna be maybe seeing a couple of women at once or whatever, if there was nothing serious, but it was really frowned on if women did that too. I think now it’s definitely more accepted that that’s gonna be -- until you're exclusive with somebody, you sort of want to make the assumption that they're probably seeing two or three other people as well.

29:06

And I know that a lot of the women in their fifties and older have a really hard time with this because it’s so ingrained that, “No, no, no. I’m a one-guy woman, and I don't want to do that.” But the thing is, is what happens there is that they end up investing themselves really quickly in a man before he’s really shown himself and that he’s worthy. They’ve invested a year of their time, and then he’s shown his true colors, and it’s like, “Ahh…” So, they do inevitably see the sense in maybe seeing two or three and getting to know them all at the same time because then it keeps your -- attract your vibe much, much higher, and you become that prize. You really feel like the prize when there are three of them and you're juggling them. Yeah.

30:00

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I love so much that you mentioned it’s a personal growth journey because it really is, and like you were saying, you have to grow to be able to find a new pattern. And so, that’s why I think people like you (dating coaches) are so important because it’s like there’s a transformation involved there with you’ve got to learn how to do it! And also, have support when it’s hard because it is, right? Like you were saying earlier, a lot of women who are older, their friends may all be in relationship, so they don't have that support of someone who’s like, “I know what it’s like. I know what you're going through.” Because no one around them does.

Michaela Lambert: That’s so true. That is so true, and I think that it can feel really lonely being in that position, and I think having somebody else to talk to who gets it is a great way forward. Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Well, thank you so much for all of this really helpful information and for sharing yourself and your story. I’d love to know, too, if maybe there’s a question that I didn't ask that you wished I would have asked or maybe any last things you wanted to share?

31:06

Michaela Lambert: I think I’ve kind of hit all the points that I was gonna hit, but I think if there was one sort of lasting thought to take away it’s all the times that I hear people say, “Ugh, dating sucks. Dating’s so hard. Why is it so sucky? It’s just awful,” but it’s like at the end of the day, it is meant to be fun, you know? So, there’s a gambling ad in the UK, and it says, “When the fun stops, stop.” So, if you’re not having fun and if you're not enjoying this process, then it’s really on you to ask yourself why and take yourself out and make sure that you're filling your cup. It’s so important to come with a full cup, and by that I mean that you’ve got everything else in your life really figured out and sorted and you have got that full life, you’ve got things that light you up.

32:05

It’s gonna make you a much more enjoyable person to be around, number one, but you're gonna, then, feel that you’ve got things that you can share of yourself, and you're not putting the emphasis on the dating as the thing that -- and I think that I fell into that trap a lot at the beginning because I was back in a new country, I didn't have many friends. So, a lot of my kind of life was sort of being invested into dating and into these pseudo situationships, I’ll say. But it was so empty. And so, yeah, I had to sort of take a break and then get myself on track, really, and then come back to it, and I had a much, much better time. But yeah.

Amanda Testa: I love that. Make sure you're having fun!

Michaela Lambert: Yeah! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I’d love to know as well, if you could share with the listeners where they can find you and learn more about you and connect with you.

33:03

Michaela Lambert: Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, my website is www.yoursecondsoulmate.com, and I’m also on Instagram @thesavvygoddess, and I’m on Facebook under my name Michaela Lambert. I’m more than happy to connect with you there in any of those places.

Amanda Testa: Beautiful, well, thank you so much, Michaela. I know you mentioned as well that you had a guide that you were gonna direct people to.

Michaela Lambert: Oh, yes! Yeah, for sure. For sure. Thanks for the reminder. Yeah, so I have this short guide (about ten pages long), and it’s called The Five Secrets to Midlife Dating, and in it there are also some journal prompts to really help you get that clarity of what you're looking for, and there are just some really quite juicy tips in there, and you can find that if you head to my website at www.yoursecondsoulmate.com!

Amanda Testa: Beautiful! Thank you so much, and I just so enjoyed talking with you. I’m so excited for all of this amazing work that you're doing, and thank you all, too, for everyone listening.

34:03

Maybe if you have a friend that you think would love this episode, just pass it along. Thank you for being a part of our community here. We will see you next time!
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[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Kimmay Caldwell is an Undergarment Educator who supports people to say hurray inside, outside, and underneath™.

She is an expert bra fitter with over a decade of experience of getting intimate with people from cup sizes A to N since 2005. Formerly based in NYC, she spent three wild years in rural Oklahoma and is currently based in Philadelphia, but she loves to travel around the world to spread her empowering message of self-love, teaching people how to use the everyday ritual of putting on a bra to uncover your confidence, stand in your power, and learn to love yourself. Her newest offering, Bra Confidence & Comfort, supports people to find a comfortable bra fit without wasting money on bras they dread wearing so they can start each day saying HURRAY!

You may have seen her in one of over 100 press outlets, including The Martha Stewart Show, The Today Show, 10 times on The Rachael Ray Show, 13 on The Marilyn Denis Show in Canada, and many magazines and podcasts. Wherever she is, you can connect with Kimmay @Hurraykimmay, and always find her at www.HurrayKimmay.comv

Want more support from Amanda? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda⁠ here.

In this 45 min call, we’re going to identify your #1 block to pleasure, why it’s showing up in the way it is, and what to do to turn it around. ⁠
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After doing this work for almost a decade, I can quickly identify the patterns holding you back, and show you the steps to change it. ⁠
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EPISODE 262: Kimmay Caldwell


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

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Hey, what’s up? It’s Amanda! If you're enjoying this pod, and you know you are ready to say yes to more pleasure, and you are just wanting to know, “How the hell do I do it,” well, you’re in luck because as of now, we have spots available in The Pleasure Foundation, which is my pleasure membership where twice a month you get an amazing practice that teaches you how to drop into your body, to become more connected to yourself, and to learn the art of sacred self-care. So, if this is something you're interested in, go to www.amandatesta.com/tpf (as in The Pleasure Foundation) and we will see you there!

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1:00

Hello, and welcome to the podcast today! I have a question for you: is getting dressed a hassle? At the end of the day, do you feel like you want to rip your bra off and throw it away? If you struggle to find undergarments that feel comfortable, then you're gonna love today’s episode because I’m so thrilled to be talking with my friend and amazing undergarment educator, Kimmay Caldwell. She is also a self-love coach, and she really helps people feel comfortable and confident in their bras without wasting money on bras they dread wearing and also how connected, really, this experience can be, right? So often we go through our days just slammin’ and bammin’, all the things, but really taking a minute to make everything you do intentional, and I really love that about Kimmay. So, thank you for being here, and welcome!

Kimmay Caldwell: Hurray! I’m so excited to be here. I wish y’all could see what Amanda is wearing and her beautiful decor, because she is just walking the walk with what she talks over there. Her feminine fire is on fire today!

2:03

Amanda Testa: Well, thank you very much.

Kimmay Caldwell: You're welcome!

Amanda Testa: I actually have to just share one little side note is Kimmay always has great social media where she’s sharing all kinds of beautiful lingerie all the time, which, if you listen to the podcast, you know I love lingerie, and also, you don't have to have fancy lingerie to be sexy, but it feels fun when you find the things that feel good, which we’ll talk about.

Kimmay Caldwell: One hundred percent.

Amanda Testa: But you introduced me to, what is it, Empress Mimi?

Kimmay Caldwell: Ah, yes! Oh, my gosh! What a fun brand.

Amanda Testa: It’s super fun. So, now I’m on their subscription, and I just got a new one yesterday. So basically it’s so exciting, and they have beautiful packaging, but it’s got butterflies and is so springy and it’s purple. It’s perfect for the spring because it’s finally warm here. So, side note.

Kimmay Caldwell: Oh, my gosh.

Amanda Testa: It’s all fun news!

Kimmay Caldwell: Okay, well, hello, brand testimonial. I worked with them on a really great project called “Dopamine (Under)dressing,” which is an editorial that I did for Revealed Magazine, and their stuff is a dopamine hit. It’s fun colors. It’s vibrant stuff. It’s not necessarily your everyday, supportive, workhorse bra, right?

3:02

This is like fun, cutesy stuff, but their social media, by the way, is so much fun and so empowering, and that is really -- I think people purchase from them not just because they have the fun, beautiful stuff to wear, but because they know they have this brand kind of behind them. And so, oh, my gosh, I’m gonna tell them! They're gonna be thrilled. They're so great.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] And, of course, my daughter’s name is Mimi, so, you know…

Kimmay Caldwell: Oh, adorable!

Amanda Testa: That always helps. So, I’d love to get back to the meat of what we’re talking about and how important it is to kind of find more pleasure in getting dressed, and I’d love if you would share a little bit more about why this is such a passion for you.

Kimmay Caldwell: Oh, my gosh. Love this question so much. So, first of all, there are probably some people listening who are more on the free side of life, right? They like to be free and loose and have a more fluid day, and for them that might mean they are not wearing bras. They're just like, “Nope! Just not for me. I want to feel free,” and bras may feel restrictive for them. There are also people who maybe are actually looking for support and are like, “I want to feel held in. I want to feel supported. I want to look lifted,” and yet they're probably also like, “I cannot find one that doesn't feel like I want to rip it off by the end of the day,” right?

4:09

We have so many people that are like that. And so, I want to encourage us to think about bras like we think of shoes, and I use metaphors all the time to teach. I am an undergarment educator, and so, when I talk about bras, I use many different metaphors.

So, one is they are shoes, right? So, when we think of shoes, it is possible that we could be wearing the wrong-sized shoe and that it’s not gonna feel good. So, so many people have been wearing bras that are just the wrong size or style for their body. So, imagine if you’ve been wearing a size seven shoe for years, and you could or should be wearing a nine. Of course, at the end of the day, you're gonna get home and be like, “I want to kick these dang shoes off. They feel so horrible. I don't know why I even bother wearing shoes,” right? The same thing is true when your friend is like, “Well, I really love this pair of shoes. They're super comfortable.” It doesn't matter if it’s the most comfortable, well-made, gorgeous shoes in the world that are made of actual marshmallows, when you go to put those shoes on in the wrong size, they’re still gonna feel horrible, and you're gonna feel so much better wearing slippers or going barefoot.

5:14

I hope you're following the metaphor here that if you're wearing the wrong bra size, then of course it’s gonna feel better to wear a little stretchy bralette (which would be slippers) or go barefoot (which would be wearing no bra at all). It’s not to say that it doesn't feel great to be barefoot some days or it doesn't feel great to be in slippers some days, but they're not actually super supportive, and when you're out and about in the world or you're at the gym or hiking or on a professional interview, you probably don't want to be barefoot or wearing slippers.

So, that’s how I sort of look at bras in one way, right? We have to educate people on the fit and the size before we can talk about their comfort and their confidence, and when I mean confidence, I also mean the kind of confidence that comes from high self-esteem, so liking yourself, and that takes practice. So, bras are my favorite tool to do this for a couple reasons.

6:07

One is because they can be just for you, right? They’re under the clothes, so unless you're me and you're on your social media in your underwear all the time, [Laughs] most people probably aren't gonna see your undergarments. So, it is just for you. Now, y’all can't see this, but Amanda, I’m gonna prove it to you. Today I’m wearing a gorgeous blue bra. Look at this. Stunning.

Amanda Testa: Oh, that’s gorgeous.

Kimmay Caldwell: Thank you! And listen, no one has to know. My husband might not even see this today, right? This is just for me so that I feel -- you know, I admitted to Amanda offline that I’ve overbooked myself recently, and I’ve just said yes to too much, and I was feeling a little down. So today, I put on a cute dress and a cuter bra, and I am just carrying that energy around with me.

The second reason I think they’re such a rich tool for getting dressed in the day and saying hurray is because we wear them right over our hearts.

7:00

So, if you know anything about chakras or just energy in general, even if you don't, just practice with me here. This is such a sacred part of the body, and the three things that I see limiting people the most in the bra fitting room is shame: either they're too much or not enough, right? “They're too big or they're too small. They're too sexualized, they're not perky enough,” whatever. So, some kind of shame, some kind of misunderstanding we’ve had about our worth attached to this part of our body. Confusion: “What size do I even wear? What the heck is a double D versus an E?” And then discomfort: “It’s digging in, it’s falling off. I don't feel good in this bra.”

Those three things are what I call heart restrictors. They just completely block the heart, and our shoulders round and our heart goes back and we can no longer stand tall and make those heart-led decisions. So, I mean, yes, I want people to feel good in their bra everyday, but really, I want you to put your shoulders back and make heart-led decisions, okay? That’s number two.

Then finally, number three -- there are more. These are the top three.

8:01

The number three one, I should say, is that most people I work with are wearing undergarments on a daily basis. And so, I believe in the power of the one percent. If you ever read Atomic Habits, he talks about habits being that one percent change that you make and how over the course of time it can completely redirect your life.

So, for most people, they put on their bra and take their bra off every single day. It’s a daily habit that you already have. If you could turn that habit into a ritual or habit stack on top of it and maybe say one kind thing to yourself or take just 30 seconds of putting on your bra to set an intention or to say an affirmation or to lovingly forgive yourself for an unkind thought that you had, something, anything, something small, really small. If you do that every single day when you put on your bra or even every day when you take it off as well, right (one or the other or both), imagine in one year, five years, ten years, how that practice of saying something kind to yourself or releasing a shame or affirming something about yourself will change your day and your days and your life.

9:12

That’s the power of putting on something that you love every day, and you have to start with something that actually feels good, right? It helps if what you're putting on actually feels really good and is who you want to be that day, you know?

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Kimmay Caldwell: “I want to be a bright blue bra today,” instead of, “I want to be something that I kind of am settling for.” So, all right. That’s why I’m so passionate about this.

Amanda Testa: Oh, my gosh. I love it so much. It makes so much sense because I think these little things are actually huge things, right? They're not little because, like you say, it’s the little things you do repeatedly over time that make the difference, not the big, huge things, right? It’s the little things you do, and I talk about this a lot around relationships, too. It’s like the ways you build connection or not, right?

Kimmay Caldwell: Yes. Yes.

Amanda Testa: The way you're kind to yourself or not. The way you make something intentional or not. It’s so big, and I love it so much because I think for so many women-identifying humans, people that have breasts or that want to wear undergarments that make them feel good, like you say, you've got to kind of go with what you're feeling, right? Sometimes you want to be barefoot. Sometimes you want to wear the stilettos.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah!

10:10

Amanda Testa: Sometimes you want to do whatever, and that’s what’s fun about it, but I think the key is I love how you say kind of going back to how you first learned to buy undergarments, because I think a lot of this is tied with so many things, but oftentimes, when we think back to puberty or what we learned about our developing bodies, what we thought about that, what people around us thought about that, how they helped us maybe shop for our first bras or whatever and how that experience was makes a big difference in how you feel today.

Kimmay Caldwell: Totally.

Amanda Testa: So, I’m wondering if you might speak to that a little bit.

Kimmay Caldwell: Absolutely, and I want to backtrack too because, you know, that point about putting something on every day, the whole point here too is that when you open up your bra drawer or wherever you throw your bras -- hopefully they're not just on the floor. No shame, but I know someone out there listening is like, “They are definitely in a pile on the ground right now.”

11:02

Whenever you open up that bra drawer, I want that person to have choice, right? That’s the autonomy of what we put on and in our bodies is so powerful. So, opening up that bra drawer and being like, “Okay, who do I want to be today? How do I want to support myself today? How do I want to adorn my body today?” That’s really a powerful moment.

So again, even just that ritual alone of asking yourself and then making a choice for yourself is really, really, really powerful, and again, if your bra drawer is filled with things that you're like, “Ugh,” about, that’s not gonna be a really powerful decision. But if you can open it and be like, “Okay, who do I want to be,” and you have all these wonderful, well-fitting, beautiful garments -- and by the way, beautiful is so subjective. It could just be a basic, skin-tone, neutral bra or it could be a beautiful blue lace bra. It doesn't really matter. It’s just like I want to make sure I’m addressing myself and dressing myself in a way that makes me feel awesome today. So, hurray! That’s that.

12:00

Okay, so then going back to how we’re taught and how this gets brought up. So, I have a really popular TikTok account, and however you feel about TikTok, it’s reaching a certain demographic that I wasn't necessarily reaching before. So, the people that I was helping a lot in the bra fitting rooms which, mind you, I’ve been fitting bras since 2005, y’all. That’s 18 years of fitting folks. In the bra fitting rooms, I helped people of every age and size and shape and need that you can think of, especially because I was in New York City. So it was with every single kind of human. And the number one demographic that I was supporting was women in their fifties (like 55 years old), and usually that was because they were desperate. They had gone through menopause or they were about to go through menopause, which is like a second puberty for the body, okay? Your body’s changing, and they're just like, “Oh, my gosh, I cannot deal.”

Then finally, that generation right before me, currently the way that most families are, their kids are out of the house. They finally have the time, the financial resources, and then the desperate need to come in and get a fitting.

13:01

So, that was my jam. Then when I started blogging and doing more television and stuff like that, I was getting actually my peers (people in their late thirties and then early forties, maybe late twenties, but really that kind of around-my-age-group people). Now on the TikTok, I’m getting girls and guys and folks who are 13, 14, 15, and I’m like, “Fascinating!”

So, I put out a couple times asking people, maybe my age, older, whatever, “What was that time like for you when you got your first bra? What emotions did come up for you,” and then I’m getting the folks who are like, “I’m going shopping for my first bra, and I’m nervous. How do I bring this up to my mom?” It’s so wild to see all these different ages discuss this, and obviously generational things and cultural shifts affect this, but I have seen in the fitting room so many parent and child duos come in, and I have seen this affect that person immediately, and then I’m assuming long term about how we address this part of the body.

14:04

If you're a parent and you remember this for yourself, great. But I want you to think about your kid because no shame here and no judgment if you didn't address it in this way and you're feeling guilty or something, right? I want to just lift that here and just bear with me here as we think about new ways to address our kids and discuss this because we may not have been given the best example. I love my mom. I wasn't given the best example on this. And I don't think she had the language to help me understand how to honor this part of the body. I grew up in 90s diet culture, so I just actually had a lot of shame around my body. I lived in purity culture, so when I first went shopping for a bra, I didn't even let her in the room. I was so embarrassed. I was so ashamed of this part of the body. Clearly, it needed to be hid or fixed or shaped in a way that was more appropriate. So that was the story I had.

14:58

Other parents, when they bring in their kids will say something to me like -- they’ll bring somebody to a bra-fitter because they just are like, “I don't know what to do with her,” and they will say that! Amanda, they will be like, “I don't even know what to do with her. They’ve gotten so big. I just can't handle it. I’ve always had small breasts. I don't even know what to do with these big boobs,” and I’m like, “Whoa, hold on a minute. Let’s calm this language down.” Or they’ll say something like, “Just don't give her a push-up bra. We don't need her attracting attention.” I’m like, “Hold on a minute.” We’re teaching that young person how to think about this part of their body as either a source of shame, a source of not being safe -- what’s the word for this, unsafety? Danger is the opposite of safety -- a source of danger, right? This might attract a dangerous person towards them, or that it might mean something about them and their sexuality, that suddenly she’s gonna be a slut because her boobs are big. There are all these stories that we’re teaching somebody about this.

So, I highly, highly encourage you to use neutral language to just really support that person to go in and say, “Listen, let’s find something that feels really comfortable in your body. Let’s learn about this together. Let’s go try some things on.”

16:03

I’ve had to rush moms out of the room and do damage control because I can see that person just shutting down and those three things lock in that person’s heart right away.

So yeah, it’s so fascinating how we learn about this part of the body from others around us - from our parents, from our culture, from television, from our peers. A lot of my job is helping people to erase and unravel those stories and literally get stuff off your chest. Just let it go. Let it go. Undo it.

Amanda Testa: That is so amazing, and I am so glad that these people had you in the dressing room with them. If only all fitters were this knowledgeable and helpful.

Kimmay Caldwell: I know. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Because I will tell you, though, I recall I have a specific memory of when I was in high school, and same. I grew up in the 90s, too, with that heroin chic, the very --

Kimmay Caldwell: Yep. Totally.

Amanda Testa: That was what was in, and I’m a curvy person. That was not my body at all, and I remember I was trying on bathing suits with my friend’s mom. [Laughs]

17:03

She had a lot of opinions, and so, I remember I tried on this bathing suit, and she was like, “Hell no! That’s like two boobs walking forward!”

Kimmay Caldwell: Oh, boy.

Amanda Testa: She was like, “You cannot have that one.” I always had a lot of shame about my boobs being big, you know? I just share this because I think people listening that have that -- you know, we do hold so much here because then we maybe even kind of hold our posture differently.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yes. One hundred percent.

Amanda Testa: We curve in and don't stand up straight or feel straight. Again, our bodies are our bodies, and people’s responses to that are not our responsibility, which is the other thing that we’re taught as kids, right, especially when saying, “That’s not appropriate,” or the most conservative, hideous bra that I could have had were the ones that my mom bought me. [Laughs] And I didn't know different.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I was like, “Oh, just whatever.”

Kimmay Caldwell: And it’s always for somebody else’s comfort, right?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Kimmay Caldwell: Right? And if I’m being really honest, it’s always for the men. We don't want to make men feel uncomfortable. We don't want them to get aroused. We don't want them to be distracted. Like, what?

18:02

Amanda Testa: Yeah, that is the purity messaging right there, right?

Kimmay Caldwell: Exactly.

Amanda Testa: It’s our responsibility.

Kimmay Caldwell: And so, we have to cover our nipples. God forbid we had a natural breast shape in a T-shirt and walked out into the world. We would be seen as absolutely inciting flare-ups of attention, and yet I think about when I’m around my girlfriends, we don't care if we see each other’s natural breast shape. People will say, “Well, that’s because you all have boobs.” Not really, and also, you know, again, it becomes this safety issue of I don't want to make that person uncomfortable, but also I don't want them to start to think of me in a way that makes me feel unsafe.

So, I have feelings about how I wish we could free the nipple and I wish we could have that natural shape and that we didn't need bras at all (like, how feminist of me), and yet, I also agree and disagree. I know I actually love wearing undergarments. I love adorning my body with that sometimes, right? I love going free sometimes. And then also I know that’s not the current culture we live in. So, there are certain standards and there are certain safety measures that I take in order for me to function in this world and feel like I am a safe and secure person. So, it’s tricky. It’s really tricky, and I told my husband the other day I actually wish I lived in a time, like prehistoric times, and I said, “I wish we could just go back to when we were all just naked and no one cared and it just didn't matter,” but we can't, you know? We can't do that.

19:28

I also want to add one thing -- oh, go ahead.

Amanda Testa: No, you go ahead.

Kimmay Caldwell: I wanted to add one thing about how you wish everybody could have a bra-fitter like me, and listen, I don't think I’m the best bra-fitter in the entire world. I’m pretty darn good, and I definitely have a great sense of compassion, and I bring that into the fitting room. I also bring in things like crystals and I bring in things like oils because I think we can make bra shopping a sacred experience, right? So, you're gonna get something different with me than you would maybe with someone else. That said, everybody I would fit at 55 would be like, “Oh, my gosh,” like I’ve totally blown their mind. I’ve educated them on what bra sizing even is, on how their bra should even fit, and they're like, “How in the world did I go 40 years wearing bras and had no idea about this? Gosh, I wish I met you when I was 20,” and I go, “Me too. Do you know a 20-year-old? Please bring them to me!”

20:15

Because at 20, most people -- and this is a gross generalization, but a lot of people are kind of perky enough that they can kind of fake it in a bra, and they’ve got so many other things going on in their life that they're just like, “Who cares,” that they're not coming in for that level of support.

And so, I actually, when I was living in rural Oklahoma -- so, y’all, just for context, I lived in New York City where there are lots of bra shops and wonderful locations I could send people. Then I moved to rural Oklahoma, which is like a whole other podcast, okay? It was like Schitt’s Creek happening. It was very crazy. It was a very strange time in my life. Three years I spent there, and one of the best things I think I did, besides hosting a full-moon circle, which, gosh, I thought they were gonna run me out of town on my broomstick because I’m always a little too Jesus-y for my woo friends and a little too woo for my Jesus friends.

21:05

Either way, that was one thing, but the second thing was I hosted a bra and periods talk at one of the local high schools, and these were a bunch of young people from, I think we ended up doing grades 6 to 12, which was a big group, a vast difference in bodies. And I remember so clearly that these young people did not even have any basic information about their own body (their reproductive organs, their breasts, their bust, nothing), and a lot of them had no one to ask, no one to talk to.

In addition, this isn’t kind of important to say for this particular group, but this is in general, this applies in general, but for this particular group also, a lot of them were from a particular religious sect that also didn't believe in going to doctors. And so, they did not take medicine. One girl, actually, she played basketball. She was very seriously injured, and she did not go to the doctor to get that looked at or taken care of.

22:02

They can't even take Ibuprofen for cramps, so this is kind of an extreme example, but my point is they didn't have a doctor or a health professional to ask questions about their body, including their bust. So, I was sort of it for the day, and it felt so good to talk to these young people from the start about how to address this part of the body, not just how to find a bra that fits, but how to love yourself a little bit, how to be easy on yourself.

They asked the best questions. One question was like, “If the boobs are bigger, are the nipples bigger, too?” I think she literally was curious, like, “Are my nipples an okay size,” and that was a great question! They were just so engaged and had so many questions, and there were lots of questions about binders and queer folks that you could tell that person either asked to challenge me and didn't know who I was or wanted to make sure they weren't forgotten or left out. I was like, “Great question!” And I said, “By the way, does everyone know what a binder is?” And people were like, “No,” and clearly felt a little uncomfortable. Then I said, “Would you like to tell them or should I,” and this person got nervous and was like, “No, you can.” It’s like, “Great!”

23:04

We just addressed it like it’s another undergarment: “That’s it. Great! This is an option for folks who want a flatter front. Awesome.” We addressed it a little bit, and then we moved on. So, just normalizing things that I think feel very uncomfortable for young folks is so, so, so important, and letting them know that a trusted person who’s kind of cool -- like I’m not your mom, right? I’m not even your aunt. I’m a cool person who you can talk to but also look up to and respect a little bit.

So, okay, anyway, I’m saying all of this because I want to do more of that, so if anyone’s listening and you work at a school program, please let me know. I’m gonna train other people to do that, to go in and empower young folks, and this year I’m actually starting a bra fit training. So, I already have a great course (which we can talk about later) for people who wear bras, but people always come to me every time I’m on television, they're like, “Where can I get a fitting in my town?” When I was in New York City, it was so easy for me to send you to someplace. Then I moved to rural Oklahoma. People were driving two-and-a-half hours, Amanda, to go to get a bra, and it was at a Victoria’s Secret, and I was like, “Oh, God, no! We’ve got to change this. We need to get you to a real fitter. We need to get you to a place where this person understands bras.”

24:10

So, that’s my goal this year is to make more compassionate fitters, people who can not only fit you for a bra but also create a safe and welcoming environment where you can ask questions, where it’s okay if you're like, “Is it normal if one of my breasts is bigger than the other?” Like, “Yes! Totally normal. Let’s talk about it.” So yeah, that’s on my heart big, big, big time. So, I just wanted to go back to that.

Amanda Testa: I love that because I wanted to loop back, too, and I’m like, yes, I know a lot of people that are listening to the podcast are of the age where their kids maybe are past that or not, but I know my daughter is ten, so we’re about to ride these waters, and I would love for --

Kimmay Caldwell: Okay!

Amanda Testa: -- those listening, like, what would be maybe two tips that you would give them when they take their kiddos undergarment shopping? What would you offer?

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: What can they do to make it a safe and nurturing experience versus -- yeah.

Kimmay Caldwell: Great, I’ll make this -- yeah, no. Absolutely. I mean, number one: your intention means everything, right?

25:08

So, what is your intention throughout this process? Is it just, “Get them a dang bra that fits,” because that’s what you’re gonna get, or is it, “Let’s practice honoring your body and being open and creating an open relationship together so that I can support you”? Also ten, by the way, is the number one age when people get their first bra. So, you're in it, babe! It’s bound to happen one of these days! But it goes all the way down to 5, believe it or not, and all the way up to 15, but 10 is sort of that median age of when most people get their first bra or at least are introduced to the idea of wearing it.

You can also really just pay attention and see are their peers wearing bras? Is this something that you want to bring up where you think they could be ready but they're not talking to you about it, or do you want to wait for them to bring it up to you? There’s no wrong answer here, but just letting them know it’s safe for them to talk to you about it and be like, “Hey, I don't know if any of your friends are wearing bras yet, but if you ever want to talk to me about that, I’d love to talk to you about that.”

26:07

Just really letting them know, and they might be awkward and weird like, “Mom! Ew! Bras!” or they might surprise you and be like, “Yeah, I think Tracy wears bras, but I don't know, she has bigger boobs than me,” and then, “I don't think I really need one.” You can be like, “Great, let’s talk about that,” right? You never know what that situation’s gonna bring. Okay, so that’s one.

Two is to educate yourself. Please, oh, my gosh, please. Again, I told you everybody I fitted was in their fifties and had no idea how a bra was supposed to fit or how bra sizing really works. We have just been on this loop of misinformation playing the worst game of telephone in our entire lives of parent to child, usually, of just passing down misinformation about bra sizing, bra fit, all of this stuff, and mostly it is, again, very shame-based that a triple D’s the biggest thing you're gonna find. Y’all, the most popular bra sizes that I fit on a regular basis are 32F and 34G, every day. So, if you're like, “What? That size even exists,” I fit up to N cup.

27:08

So, educate yourself. Understand how bra sizes work. I have so many free resources on this. I also have a paid course on this, so you can be informed for your own body, and then you can help inform and change the life of this person that you are in care of. [Laughs] So, that’s number two.

And then number three, I always suggest going to a really great bra-fitter, you know? You don't have to guess this. You don't have to bring them into a department store with funky lighting and a sea of bras that you don't know how to get through. Bring them to a professional. Make it a really positive day. Go for mani/pedis or a lemonade or ice cream, too. Just make it a really fun, awesome experience and be like, “Let’s go bra shopping together.” Again, they might surprise you. Your kid might be really awkward and uncomfortable about it or they might be like, “This was the best day ever! How cool!”

Then, finally, is just let go of any shame you have yourself so that you're not passing it on. That’s a daily practice of really letting go of what it means to wear a D cup or what it looks like to wear a 30 band instead of a 38 band or whatever. Let go of the numbers and the shame and just really, really practice that for yourself so you're not passing it down.

28:11

Amanda Testa: I love that, and just, if you would because I know this is a project that is also near and dear to your heart that you’ve done before, but I love when you talk about how you’re not your numbers, which is so easy for us to judge ourselves in this culture that we’re in versus kind of -- I feel like things are getting way better in regards to just --

Kimmay Caldwell: Sure.

Amanda Testa: -- encouraging whatever is and just embracing who you are and the way you are, but it’s still challenging out there. And so, I’d love if you would share a little bit about how to do that.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah, and I want to point out that, you know, you and I are intentional about lifting those things, and we are moving in those circles, so to us, we’re like, “Look at the changes! How amazing,” and at the same time, you know, there are more filters than ever on Instagram, and there’s a lot of false advertising around what your body’s supposed to look like and the standards that we’re setting.

29:01

And unfortunately, I don't have an actual stat to back this up, but I actually know this is true that we have more young women, specifically, (like teen girls) unaliving themselves than ever before, and we believe it’s because of this pressure of what they're seeing on social media. And so, when I talk about being more than your numbers, I’m also talking about really being honest and truthful with yourself and not feeling any shame around it. So, I just want to point that out that that still exists and we have a lot of work to do. So, hurray!

So, the More Than My Numbers Project is something very dear to me, as you mentioned. I started this in 2014/2015, and it was because every time I fit somebody for a bra and I wrapped the measuring tape around them, I could just see them trying their best to be smaller. We wanted to have a low number. We want to be a small size. We want to be dainty and delicate. And then they look at me and be like, “What am I? What am I? Tell me my bra size,” and I would be like, “Well, hold on a minute. First of all, this measuring tape can only just tell me a starting size, and then we’re just gonna try on bras together, and you might be different sizes in different things,” and I kept saying to them, “You're more than the number.”

30:08

I also would tell them, not to discount here, “You also aren't a number.” When people say, “I am a 34DD or I am a 36B,” it drives me bananas because I’m like, “That’s not who you are. You are a divinely created human being. You are generous. You are luxurious. You are compassionate. You are whatever. That’s who you are. This number just happens to be this size in this particular bra that fits best on your body today, and it could change in a week,” [Laughs] like truly change.

So, I caution us to claim those numbers as who we are and instead to use numbers as information and not a definition. So, the More Than My Numbers Project sort of started from let’s start with bra sizes and then try something else, too. There were other numbers that we’re really letting define us: our salary, our age, our weight, the number of pregnancies that we’ve had, the number of kids we do or do not have. There’s just so much about numbers that I just felt ready to let go.

31:09

So, I started that then. I did two rounds of this with people of all different sizes and ages and abilities, and I used other people because I constantly was using myself as an example, and I tell people I wear a 32DD, and they’d be like, “No way! Double-D?” Because they think Dolly Parton, and I had quite petite breasts. Thirty-two double-D ain’t that big, y’all. Again, we could talk about why (because of sister sizing), but it was such an eye-opening thing for people to then see other humans of other sizes.

So, now this year, 2023, I’m doing another installment of this project with a really cool magazine that I work with a lot, and I’ve grown. My numbers are different. I’m so excited to share other people’s numbers, and again, to really get it out there that numbers are important to know. It’s great to know your starting sizes. It’s great to know your bust and your underbust measurements so then you know where to start in the bra alphabet. But that’s not actually who you are. You are so much more than your numbers.

So, yes, say it loud and proud with me, y’all: I am more than my numbers! Ooh, you’re muted. You’re muted.

32:10

Amanda Testa: I love that! I was just saying out loud: I am more than my numbers.

Kimmay Caldwell: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: It’s funny, too, because I’m 49 now, so I’m in the perimenopause. It’s happening, and my boobs are enormous, and they hurt.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yep. Yep, yep, yep.

Amanda Testa: And I can't not wear a bra because I usually don't like to wear one. It goes off and on, right? Today, I have my, I say Mary Jo, everyday bra just for my everyday bra. But I notice -- I even bought some really sheer jog-bra things, I don't know what the proper terminology is in the bra-fitting world.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah, like a wire-free style?

Amanda Testa: Yeah, they were just Amazon, cheapy things, but they're so comfortable. But they just give some support because it hurts.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: It hurts sometimes to not have anything. So I just say that because everything changes, and it will shift, and that’s just part of life, and it’s not a big deal.

Kimmay Caldwell: Oh, my gosh. One hundred percent.

Amanda Testa: And I love, too -- I think, well, probably because you being a bra-fitter, seeing tons of boobs and iterations of chests over your life, and I as well, working with women and doing a lot of the work that I do and holding retreats, the more you see the way different bodies look, the more you're like, “Oh.” That’s the thing. We don't have that exposure, right?

33:17

Kimmay Caldwell: Oh, my gosh. Yes. I mean, Amanda, the number one thing that changed my life was to be a bra-fitter at age 20. I’d literally turned 20 in my second day of working, or something like that, in New York City. I think everybody should be a bra-fitter for one week. Just come see what’s in the fitting room, and not only see bodies but also it’s such an intimate space that people will reveal so much to you. It becomes like therapy almost, like where people just shed their clothes, shed their stories, say things into the mirror that I think they would never say to anybody else. It will open your mind. It changed my life, working in a bra fitting room for a year. I mean, I’ve been doing it for 18 years. But that first week, my life changed. So, I totally hear you.

34:00

And yes, boobs usually get bigger during perimenopause, and it is a really big surprise to a lot of people because they're like, “They should stop growing by now! I’m an adult woman. What the heck?” It’s because our hormones so highly affect our breast tissue, right? Estrogen is the number one effect (that and fat) on your breast tissue, and that’s all they are! I mean this lovingly that breasts are basically bags of fat attached to your body. [Laughs] So there are no muscles. It’s just tissue-attached ligaments to your chest. So, once they grow or change or droop, it’s really hard to pump them back up, and that’s kind of the job of a bra.

The number one reason -- well, I should say the number one reason most people wear bras, actually in the USA and Canada (because we’re so prudey) is actually for nipple coverage and modesty, right? It’s really because they don't want to offend that other person with the natural shape of their breast, right? That’s number one. Number two is actually comfort. It’s weird because I think a lot of people think, “Oh, my gosh, bras are so uncomfortable.” But that’s actually the number two reason in my unscientific research of many years that people actually wear bras.

I’m in that camp. I wear a 34DDD, which some people in their mind might be thinking, “That’s enormous.”

35:08

It’s not actually that full, but it’s full enough that when I’m sitting -- and I have a full enough body with soft rolls and stuff that when I’m sitting, if I’m not sitting straight up or I’m not laying down on my back, I get that skin-on-skin contact, from my breast to my torso that just drives me bananas. It is sweaty. It doesn't feel good. It’s sticky, and also, my bust the week right before my period is so tender, so sore, needs a little hug, needs a little hammock, needs a little something.

So, that’s why even people wear bras at night because -- again, wire-free, stretchy bras at night, by the way. But because they just want that little bit of hug or that little bit of separation of their breasts. So, yeah, totally normal stuff happening over there, and I bless you as you go through this.

Amanda Testa: A little hug. Okay, so, I am curious. I know that I love this conversation, and you have so much goodness to share.

36:03

So, I’m curious if there are any last really important things that you want to make sure the listeners really take to heart today?

Kimmay Caldwell: Let me think about this for a second. What do y’all need to hear? I would say I’m gonna lift some guilt someone might be feeling. It’s okay if you don't know what size bra to wear. It’s okay because, number one, we were never taught this stuff. Like I said, the majority of y’all didn't have me in your high school teaching you about bras, and you might have had a really lovely, well-meaning parent who also didn't know about bras and taught you some misinformation, and you’ve probably been guessing your entire life what bra size you should wear, and you might even have a size in your mind that fits your current identity but doesn't actually fit your body.

So, I just want you to take a deep breath and release any shame or guilt that you have that sometimes people come in and they're like, “Well, it’s my body, and I should know better than anybody,” or, “How embarrassing that I’ve been wearing bras for 30 years, and yet I don't even know how bras freakin’ work?”

37:10

Let it go. It’s truly okay. Here’s another great metaphor. You are the car owner; I am the mechanic. So, I never ever owned a car in my entire life (I lived in New York City) until I was 34 years old and moved to Oklahoma. And so, I had to buy a car in Queens and then drive it three days through a million states to get to Oklahoma, and now I had this thousands-of-dollars investment and had no clue how to care for it. I was Googling. I was asking people. I literally didn't know what a tire rotation was. That is how not knowledgeable I was about this, and yet, I was driving this car every single day.

Y’all are out there wearing bras every single day owning this beautiful body, and you're like, “I don't actually know what I’m doing here. I’m guessing.” And when I went to the mechanic or the bra shop -- follow my metaphor, here -- I felt intimidated, and I didn't want them to take advantage of me. I remember this poor guy, oh, my god. I was trying -- I had my best New York City attitude on, and he came out to show me the cabin filter and be like, “Do you want to change this?” “No, I don't want to! I’m just here for the oil change! Thank you, sir! I don't need unnecessary things like that.” I was such a jerk about it, but it’s really because I was not knowledgeable.

38:18

I didn't even know what a cabin air filter was. I was like, “What did he just show me? Where did that come from in my car?”

So, I decided to educate myself, and I took a course. It’s made by this wonderful queer person who really made it for queer folks and femme folks who might feel intimidated in the mechanic shop, and it was really basic. At first, I felt a little embarrassed that I didn't know this stuff, and then I was like, “Hold on! This is why I’m here,” and it was so empowering for me to just learn the basics. Did she teach me to be a mechanic? No. I didn't need to be the mechanic. She just taught me the basics of owning a car, when to take it to the mechanic, how to talk to that mechanic, how to be a more informed person so I understood how to look at the manual and what to do. It was so awesome.

39:06

So, that’s how I look at bra-fitters. We are the mechanics. Come to us for help. Buy my course so that you can learn, just like I did with hers, right? It’s not gonna train you to be a bra-fitter. It will just help you understand the basics of bras, bra sizing, bra styles, how to build your basic bra wardrobe, and then also how to turn that into a ritual and how to love yourself and your body through the process, how to deal with your body when it’s changing (that’s one of my favorite bonuses), how to deal with your body and bra sizes as they change. I don't just mean practically but lovingly how do you address your body as it changes. I also have a really great bonus in that course on pregnancy and postpartum because, again, huge time of change in the body in great need of support.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes, yes.

Kimmay Caldwell: So, yeah. That’s my final thought, I guess, is don't beat yourself up if you don't know this stuff and you’ve been wearing bras for 30 years and you're like, “Why the heck didn't I know this,” and go get yourself educated. Like I said, I have free resources. I have a great course, and there are phenomenal fitters besides me or me who can support you.

40:05

Amanda Testa: Yes, thank you so much. It is life changing. I think the first time I went to get a “real bra fitting” I was probably in my thirties (like early thirties).

Kimmay Caldwell: Good for you! That’s early, babe! Good for you.

Amanda Testa: So yeah, it was life changing.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yes! And don't you wish you had gone earlier?

Amanda Testa: Yes! I mean, granted --

Kimmay Caldwell: It’s never too early. It's never too late.

Amanda Testa: I was very much --

Kimmay Caldwell: Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Testa: -- a hippie living in the mountains, so probably didn't really wear bras as much.

Kimmay Caldwell: Okay, fair.

Amanda Testa: But I will say I love -- it’s just fun. I’ve learned to find the ways to make it feel good, and I think also, I like to dress up and have fun and play, and for me, it’s just a fun way to adorn myself. So, it never fails if I’m feeling not good or if I’m feeling bloated, yucky, then I just put on some beautiful red panties and a beautiful red bra -- I have so many different -- and that’s the thing. I have things in different sizes depending on when it is in the month.

Kimmay Caldwell: Uh-huh.

41:04

Amanda Testa: I know my body changes.

Kimmay Caldwell: Yes, good for you.

Amanda Testa: That’s the other thing is knowing when you go in your drawer there’s something in there that fits, that makes you feel good. No matter what size you are, that feels good.

Kimmay Caldwell: I was just gonna say if someone’s listening, maybe if they’re listening to your podcast they know about adorning their body and wearing beautiful things and pleasure. But even if that’s not your jam, even if you're like, “I don't like lace. I don't like color,” whatever, literally the baseline of having something that fits and feels good, again, it’s like putting on a glorious shoe that you're like, “Oh, my God, I could run a mile --,” I was gonna say a mile because that’s my threshold. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kimmay Caldwell: “I could run miles in this! I could run a marathon,” right? It feels so much better, and then you carry that comfort and that confidence and those shoulders back and that heart out with you for the entire day.

Amanda Testa: Right. It’s so true. Thank you so much. I so appreciate you being here, and yeah, can you just let everyone know where to find you and your course and all the good things that you have to offer?

41:58

Kimmay Caldwell: Yes, so all my handles and my website are Hurray Kimmay, www.hurraykimmay.com or @hurraykimmay on Instagram or whatever, and I’m literally one of those people that if you're listening and you want to reach out on Instagram or something, please do! I literally want to hear from you. Let me know what you think about this conversation. Let me know what questions you have, please.

And then if you want to get in touch and check out my course which is called Bra Confidence and Comfort, Amanda and I have a little bonus for you. So, you can go to www.hurraykimmay.com/amandatesta and that will bring you to our main landing page where you can opt-in and get a free Fit Guide, and that free Fit Guide will kind of get you started, and then there’s a class as well. In that class you’ll be guided to see if this course is right for you. It’s totally up to you, and you’ll get a special discount if you go there.

If you're already like, “I’m in! I’m sold! I just want it. Give it to me,” you can go to www.hurraykimmay.com/bcc, and then use code FIRE100, and you’ll get $100 off that course.

43:10

If you're just like, “I don't even need the Fit Guide. I’m ready,” go for it. I’m happy to support you in that way. Again, I’ve got lots of free resources and wonderful things for you on my website and on my Instagram and my TikTok and all those wonderful places, too. So, hurray!

Amanda Testa: Hurray! Thank you so much, Kimmay! For those listening, please make sure to follow her. She’s so fun and will inspire you with ways to feel good in finding the undergarments that are right for you! And so, thank you so much for being here, and thank you all for listening!

Kimmay Caldwell: My pleasure. Thank you so much, everybody! Amanda, thank you. This was a wonderful conversation, and I really truly appreciate you.

Amanda Testa: Yes, thank you, and we will look forward to seeing you all next time!

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[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Nina Simons, co-founder of Bioneers and award-winning author of Nature, Culture & the Sacred: A Woman Listens for Leadership.

In 2017, Nina Simons received the Goi Peace Award with her husband and partner Kenny Ausubel for “pioneering work to promote nature-inspired innovations for restoring the Earth and our human community.” Past honorees include Bill Gates, James Lovelock, and Deepak Chopra.

In her book Nature, Culture & the Sacred, Nina Simons offers practical guidance and inspiration for anyone who aspires to grow into their own unique form of leadership on behalf of positive change.

Weaving her own insights together with reflections from cutting-edge leaders such as Terry Tempest Williams, Jeannette Armstrong, Alixa Garcia and V (formerly Eve Ensler), Nina opens thought-provoking pathways for reflection and growth. Discussion guides for each chapter offer prompts for engaging with radical anti-racism and intersectionality. In this essential handbook for navigating these perilous times with clarity and joy, Nina invites us to remember and reclaim our sacred relationship to the Earth by rebalancing our selves and our societies.

Informed by her extensive experience with multicultural women’s leadership development, Simons replaces the old patriarchal leadership paradigm with a more feminine-inflected style that illustrates then interconnected nature of the issues we face today. Sharing moving stories of women around the world joining together to reconnect people, nature and the land – both practically and spiritually – Nature, Culture & the Sacred is necessary reading for anyone who wants to learn from and be inspired by women who are leading the way towards transformational change by cultivating vibrant movements for social and environmental justice.

Want more support from Amanda? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda⁠ here.

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EPISODE 261: Nina Simons


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hey, what’s up? It’s Amanda! If you're enjoying this pod, and you know you are ready to say yes to more pleasure, and you are just wanting to know, “How the hell do I do it,” well, you’re in luck because as of now, we have spots available in The Pleasure Foundation, which is my pleasure membership where twice a month you get an amazing practice that teaches you how to drop into your body, to become more connected to yourself, and to learn the art of sacred self-care. So, if this is something you're interested in, go to www.amandatesta.com/tpf (as in The Pleasure Foundation) and we will see you there!

_______

0:59

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! I am so thrilled today because I have the great honor of speaking with Nina Simons, and we’re gonna be talking about leadership and what it means to be a leader in this day and age, specifically leading in all of the different aspects of ourselves that it takes to be an integrated full-spectrum leader to make changes we want to see in the world visible as well as to liberate who we are born to be. If that’s something that you're interested in, you're in the right place today!

So, I am so honored to be talking with Nina Simons. She’s an award-winning writer, social entrepreneur. She’s been paving the way for feminine leaders for a long time. She is cofounder and chief relationship strategist at Bioneers and just has done so many amazing things. So, thank you so much for being here, Nina. I am so excited to be talking with you.

Nina Simons: My delight, Amanda. Thanks for inviting me!

2:02

Amanda Testa: I’d love for those who may not yet be familiar with you and your work in the world, I’d love if you would just maybe give a little glimpse into who you are and what makes you so inspired to do the work that you do.

Nina Simons: Well, sure. Let’s see. I am someone who grew up with atheist parents (or agnostic parents) and learned at a very early age that nature was what revitalized and balanced me and what gave me solace when I needed it. And as I grew older, I began to realize that I had this deep, deep love for nature or what I refer to as mother life, you know? I realized that if there is anything sacred in this world, for me it’s mother life.

And so, my adult career has led me in all kinds of ways. I was involved in starting a social entrepreneurship company called Seeds of Change where I was serving the biodiversity of all life, and I loved that.

3:12

Then one day my husband came to me with an idea to start a conference, and he had been in a hot tub with a friend, telling him about all these amazing innovators that he had learned about who were learning, from nature, how to heal nature. And he was talking to this friend about how extraordinary these people were but lamenting that no one had ever heard of them, and the friend said, “Why don't you have a conference?” My husband said, “I’ve never been to a conference. It sounds boring. Why would I do that?” The friend said, “Here’s a grant. Go have a conference.”

Kenny came to me because I had a background in theatre, because I had realized that part of what needs to change in our world is our inner landscape, our belief systems and our ideas and our sense of our biases, a lot of what we’ve learned without ever intending to from our culture.

4:12

So, he came to me and he said, “Will you help me make a conference?” I, too, had never been to a conference. And so, with beginner’s mind we created this very unusual annual event called Bioneers, and Bioneers is a wonderful co-creation. At this point, it’s been 34 years that we’ve been doing it, and it’s kind of like an environmental and social Star Search. So, we scan the horizon for who has amazing innovative solutions for how to reinvent education, how to reinvent gender equity and leadership and climate justice and economics and all the things because, in our view, everything in the human realm is actually a subset of the natural realm, and so, they're all related.

5:06

And so, in a nutshell, for 34 years we’ve had this incredible conference, which has now become a very big online source for learning and for entertainment, and there’s an incredible podcast and radio series that wins awards every year and a lot of books and tons of videos, and they're all available online for free (not the books), and somewhere along the way, somewhere in the mid-90s, late in my life I realized how much my gender was affecting my leadership. I also realized that I was given an award for being a leader (a young leader under 40 at the time), and I didn't like it at all. I felt like I hadn’t earned it, I felt like it painted a target on my back, and I just didn't like the name. I thought, “No, I’m not a leader.”

6:06

It took me a while to unpack that because I knew from Bioneers that this time we’re all living in calls us all to be leaders, and I thought, “Well, if we’re all called to be leaders and I don't want to be called a leader, what’s wrong with this picture?” And so, I developed a seven-day immersive training for women leaders, and we ran it for, I don't know, 12 years. About 500 women came through it, and it was by application, and I co-facilitated it with two amazing colleagues. It was women of all -- we selected the women not only for their leadership commitments in the world, but also because we selected them to optimize their diversity in every way, so they were diverse by age, by race, by background, by class, by areas of interest and focus, and each time we kind of went through a process that helped all of the women who came through and myself, progressively over the years, to shed layers of enculturated learning that told me I wasn't enough, that told me I had to keep myself small, that told me that I wasn't safe to speak my truth in public, and we explored why and where and how all those beliefs had come from.

7:35

Together we co-created a field where instead of being in competition, like our culture often teaches us to, we were in beloved community. For me, the highest praise from women who took that was that they said, “When I see women in the airport, I see them as potential allies instead of competitors.”

Since then I’ve written two books. One’s, really, a collection of essays about how women and a few men are reinventing leadership, and this most recent book. I’ve been doing a lot of women’s leadership work over the years, so sorry, that’s a little long-winded, but it’s a windy road. [Laughs]

8:23

Amanda Testa: I love it because I think it’s so rich and so full of all kinds of different experiences that lead you to be able to offer the wisdom that you can share and just how it’s shared wisdom, too. You co-create these things and these events and these books, and so, I think that’s important to know too. One of the books that you're mentioning is Nature, Culture, and The Sacred: A Woman Listens For Leadership, and it’s such a powerful book, and you interview so many amazing people in this book. But I’m wondering, too, because as we first started this conversation before we started recording, you were mentioning kind of feeling inspired fresh off the most recent conference, and some of the ahas that were coming up around connection and how that’s something we’re so craving right now. I’m wondering if you wouldn't mind speaking more to that, if that is okay.

9:14

Nina Simons: Oh, of course. Well, we did have an amazing conference. It was our first time being situated in the city of Berkeley, which was quite wonderful, and we had an Indigenous heart at the center of our organization since we began, and it’s grown over time, over time, over time. And so, we probably had, I'm guessing, maybe 1,200 people a day, and each day had an Indigenous keynote speaker, and there were representatives from 120 native nations there, which was extraordinary and such an honor. What I sensed very clearly was how isolated so many of us have felt.

10:03

For me, I really am a creature who believes in relational intelligence, and my sense is we are social creatures by design, and so, the last three years of this pandemic have been really rough. We had all ages at the conference because we had teenagers there as well as elders, and really for everyone there was this huge celebration of coming together for the first time in a very long time in a field that was very intentionally designed and co-created to invite everyone’s sense of belonging and safety and bravery in being there. It kind of felt like a love field, even though this is such a time of polarization and of weirdness in the human social sphere. So, it felt like we collectively made some very good medicine, and that was incredibly gratifying.

11:09

Amanda Testa: I think, like you are saying, the residual effects of all of the alone time and the disconnection and the forced distancing will still, obviously, have some repercussions for a while.

Nina Simons: Oh, yeah.

Amanda Testa: Right?

Nina Simons: Absolutely, and you know, I find for myself, Amanda, that one of the benefits of this time has been that I’ve been listening very closely, and I don't just mean with my ears. I listen in my meditations. I listen in my dream time. I’ve been listening for guidance of what is wanted from me now, and what I know is that slowing down is part of what was wanted. And I still feel like a high-speed vehicle that’s skidding to a slower speed, but I’m grateful because I know that I needed it, and I was on a path to burnout, and that was not good.

12:09

So, can’t do that!

Amanda Testa: Well, I know you talked about this in your book, and I think it’s worth just pointing out again that difference of kind of when we -- maybe a view of a leader is just going, going, going, burning yourself out.

Nina Simons: [Dog Barks] I’m sorry.

Amanda Testa: That’s okay!

Nina Simons: [Laughs] But I can't do much about it except mute. Hold on.

Amanda Testa: No worries. I have a dog too, and, thankfully, the UPS person didn't drive by because every time the UPS pulls up, he’s super stoked, and my dog goes crazy because the UPS delivery person always brings him a treat. So, no worries at all on my end. Plus, this is just life, and I think it’s interesting because what I was mentioning about is how, oftentimes, the things about leadership would be to feel very burned out, right? You just go, go so hard, and I love how when you talk about -- I’ve heard you speak before around how kind of listening to what is really needed from you so you don't burn yourself out, and so, basically, I think oftentimes as we step into leadership or feel called into those roles, maybe there’s a part of us that’s like, “Well, I don't think I can do that,” or, “I can't step up in this way because it would just lead me to burning out. It will be too much, especially when I’m dealing with so many things.”

13:26

So, I’m curious. I appreciate how you were mentioning that earlier. It’s going in and tuning into what is needed, but I’d love if you shared more about that.

Nina Simons: Well, it’s something that I perceive, Amanda, on several different levels because, as you know, I talk in my book about what I call full-spectrum leadership, and I think whether we’re conscious of it or not, we’ve all been kind of habituated to forms of leadership that lean very heavily on the masculine parts of our nature and less so on the feminine parts. When I say that, I don't mean friendly versus aggressive.

14:06

I mean I think of the masculine and feminine as more like the yang and the yin of the yin/yang symbol, and really, the masculine is the active part of us, and the feminine is the receptive part of us, and our wholeness involves finding some sort of balance between those two things.

What I realized early on in my inquiry about leadership -- and I think this applies very directly to women who are mothers as well, whether they're working moms -- I mean, every mom is a working mom, right? I mean, that’s the reality. And so, what I saw was that we’re all habituated to being in constant overdrive, to multitasking, to accomplishing so much on our to-do list, to not asking for help when we need it, and to not giving ourselves permission for rest.

15:08

And so, what I am noticing -- a friend taught me that the feminine in us thrives in spaciousness, and I know that spaciousness doesn't sound like something very accessible these days, especially if you're working or you're a mom or both. It just feels like this very accelerated, one-thing-after-another, non-stop hamster wheel, but what I’m learning is that if I can slow down enough, even to just take 5 or 15 minutes to sit still, close my eyes, breathe deeply, maybe even lie down and recognize that almost whatever age we are, I believe we all need more rest than we’re getting and more stillness and more quiet time to listen and receive in whatever ways we do, because I think we all receive differently.

16:10

So, for me, I’m cultivating a practice of recognizing when I’ve been in non-stop motion for a while and I just need to slow down and take a few, and it doesn't take a lot of time, but it makes a big difference, and it’s how I notice when I’m going too fast or when I’ve got too much on my plate.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so key is even just it doesn't have to be a huge amount of time.

Nina Simons: Right.

Amanda Testa: Sometimes two minutes, if you really just give yourself that two minutes fully, can feel spacious.

Nina Simons: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And especially if that’s all the time, yeah.

Nina Simons: That’s right.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and so --

Nina Simons: And it’s funny because for so many years I considered multitasking to be this great gift that women have, and I still think it is, but I think, like any gift, it can be a curse. What I notice is sometimes I have to not multitask. I have to just give myself permission to do one thing with my full attention at a time, and I think probably everyone who’s a mother knows that and has learned it from their children, right? But for me, who is childless by choice, that’s a learning.

17:21

Amanda Testa: I think one of the things that is interesting, I love this question that you pose in the book because one of the great things about the book, Nature, Culture, and the Sacred, is there are lots of embodied experiences for you to do with yourself or with a group, and one of the questions that I think is a great one, because especially when there are people listening who feel like there are so many things going on and they’re just maybe in survival mode a little bit, when you're kind of looking at all the harms that are created by the systems that we live in, how do you kind of avoid that overwhelming guilt but hold our own accountability --

Nina Simons: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: -- to cultivate the capacity to stay present, to respond. And I love that inquiry.

18:04

Nina Simons: [Laughs] Well, thank you!

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Nina Simons: And I think I’m really proud of the book because, for one thing, it offers, in very digestible nuggets, my learning over the course of about a 20-year inquiry, and the essays, some of them are prose poems, some of them are essays, but they're only 20-, or 25-minutes long, and then each of them has both practices that you can do with yourself or with a circle of friends and embodied practices.

And so, I was able to really integrate my learning from 20 years of convening women’s circles, and that just feels like a good offering to everyone in a female body right now. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too, when you feel into that question for yourself right now, is it taking that time for stillness and for going in or what helps your capacity?

18:59

Nina Simons: Hmm, well, let’s see. Walks in nature, and when I walk in nature I tend to have a walking meditation where I like to imagine that I’m pouring love from the soles of my feet into the earth because she needs it right now, right? Sometimes asking for forgiveness. That keeps me going. The evidence of women finding their fire and standing up to injustices that are happening all over the world just thrills me. As well as women in this country, standing up for our rights and our bodily sovereignty and becoming good citizens and being willing to take the risk of going out to demonstrate on behalf of what we know is right and needed and just because it feels like a very pivotal moment in our evolution as a species.

20:00

And while there are a lot of demands at home, and I sure feel that, we’re at a choice point, really, in our evolution, and everyone who’s a mother knows the concern and the fear of sending your kids to school with rampant gun violence and the impending threat of climate instability and craziness.

So, I’m excited by the moment and also, I mean, there’s another piece that I want to name, Amanda, which is that I feel like 20 or so years ago I gave myself permission to cultivate myself as part of my life practice, and I felt like when I did my own inner inquiry and found all those biases and self-limiting voices and stuff that I had never chosen to take on -- and at first I was like, “Oh, how did I become this shrinking violet? That's not who I am. Over the course of doing all that work, I feel like I have found my way to a place of greater freedom and full self-expression. My husband and I have achieved a love affair that took a lot of work to get to, but now we’re in full equality, and it’s like we’re having a honeymoon after being together for nearly 40 years, which is amazing! I would wish that for everyone.

21:32

So, there is a joy in liberating myself from all that enculturated learning that didn't serve me, and it’s freeing and it’s joyful, and it’s also hugely empowering, and I sure wish it for everyone of any age.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I love how you say, too, it’s your life’s practice.

Nina Simons: Yeah, no, I probably will be practicing until the day I die.

Amanda Testa: Exactly.

Nina Simons: [Laughs]

22:00

Amanda Testa: I, too, get that. I think so many people are like, “Well, this just needs to be taken care of,” or, “I’m gonna learn this, and it’s the end.” I’m like that’s not how it works at all. It’s a constant practice that never ends, right? It’s just part of the evolution of who we are.

Nina Simons: Well, and you know, this may be my particular biased way of seeing the world, but I do believe that that silver-bullet, fast-solution way of thinking is part of patriarchal closure, you know? It’s about the goal orientation without attention to the process, and the process is at least as important, and you can't really know the goal until you fully step into the process, and then it reveals, if you're lucky, over time. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Well, I love how you also say that you and your husband now have this epic love affair after 40+ years that you’ve worked very hard on.

Nina Simons: Right?

Amanda Testa: I’m curious, would you be willing to share maybe some of the things that you feel have helped that?

22:57

Nina Simons: Well, I mean, we went through a difficult power struggle kind of a time where I thought that we might have to split up, but honestly, I think that what got us through it was me claiming my own authority. I really think that what I feel like I keep learning over and over again in my couple relationship is to change the relationship, change yourself, and when you change yourself, everything changes. I’ve just been blown away to witness how much he’s changed and how much he’s enjoying me being fully present in a way that I probably wasn't before. He keeps saying things like, “You’ve surpassed my imagining of who you were,” and I love that. That’s lovely. What a sweet affirmation.

What I recognized is that for a long time I compared myself with him, I gave my power to him. I just think that that program is so deep within us that the guys who are in charge, who are the men or the males in our lives, need a long time to get over it. But what a great thing to have gotten over! I’m just enjoying it so much, and it’s a delight.

24:18

Amanda Testa: You were talking about noticing and kind of where you felt -- well, because we all are taught, right, especially here in this culture in the US and around that patriarchal culture of, you know, and then at the power of what not, it’s just easy to default. So, I’m curious if you are open to maybe sharing what were some of the things that helped you to feel like you could take your authority back and to feel that you had more choice in taking your own power, because I think that’s what I love to talk about as well because I think that’s a big piece of it. We all so often feel like we don't have any choice or we can't make any change, but we can. There’s so much we can do, and it can feel overwhelming to look at all the things that need changing, but that’s what the powers that be want. They want it to feel too much to do the little things that need to be done.

25:08

So, I’m curious for you, maybe what were some of those little things to kind of unwind from feeling your power being taken away?

Nina Simons: Well, you know, it’s something that I describe at greater length in the book, but basically, I learned something from a Peruvian elder teacher who was in a traditional ceremony that was many hours long, and at the very end of it, he said, “If you remember only one thing, remember this: consciousness creates matter, language creates reality, ritual creates relationship.” And I felt as though those nine words landed in me like a compass, and from that point on, I practiced re-languaging things, you know? And I practiced ritual because I knew that what I had to change was my relationship to myself. And so, I did a lot of rituals.

26:12

Here’s an easy one. I noticed that when I got out of the shower in the morning, I looked in the mirror and I had all these voices go off in my head about, “Your butt’s too fat, and your hips are too wide, and your belly’s too round,” you know? Does that not sound familiar? [Laughs] And I knew, “Oh, my gosh, I’m doing violence to myself every day when I do that.” And so, I created a ritual by getting some body oil that I like and adding essential oils to it (to my own taste, you know, no particular recipe), and that every day when I got out of the shower, I would do this little five-minute ritual of anointing my body with this scented oil, and while I did it, I poured love and gratitude into my body and I thanked it for all the ways it was holding me and strengthening me and supporting me and all the things that I was grateful for about it.

27:16

And, you know, it sounds kind of oddly Hallmark-y, but I’ve got to say that what I found is that if you do rituals regularly every single day, somewhere around six to eight weeks, something inside you starts to change.

And so, that was one, and I did rituals of self-appreciation. I also found that working with other women tremendously accelerated my learning and my growth, and so often others can see ourselves better than we can see ourselves. And so, I would do practices (again, many of them in the book) about what are your gifts, what are your talents because I really believe that our souls brought us here to this life on earth with a purpose.

28:07

And so, a lot of the work that we did was to help identify what each woman’s purpose or sense of calling was so that we could grow into exactly who our souls brought us here to be. There’s something so powerful about having someone else give you feedback. I think any feedback -- we have to ditch the idea that feedback is positive or negative and recognize that if it’s given with love, if it’s given with an investment in you becoming more of yourself, then it’s not critique. It’s like, “I think you might show up better if you did this. I think it might help you to do that,” and it’s phenomenal how helpful it can be.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so powerful, and I think, too, that’s one of the beautiful things about gathering in community because you get to have that reflection, and especially the more -- when you bring diverse groups together, then there’s just such opportunity for being able to see yourself clearly and unravel all the things that are standing in the way of your authentic self.

29:22

Nina Simons: It’s so true.

Amanda Testa: There are lots of layers that have to be unraveled.

Nina Simons: I know, and I remember long ago spending a weekend with a friend who had been in a women’s circle for, like, eight years, and I knew from being with her how much it had grown her. I came away from that weekend saying, “I’m gonna start a women’s circle!” I had no idea how. Again, I offer all the instruction that I knew in the book, but everyone may have their own way, and you can do it on Zoom. You can do it with one other woman, you know? There are so many ways to do it.

30:00

But another practice that we did that I love was something that we came to call Compost and Cauldron where we sat in a circle, and you can do it on Zoom, and everyone went around in their most truthful way and said, “I am composting this that I observed in myself,” you know, “I’m giving it back to the earth to transform into nutrients.” And it was a way of peeling back the onion skin of all that learning, and what I’m putting in the cauldron to cook is how good it felt to me when I did something better than I’ve ever done before, and everyone in the circle gets to hear that and savor it for themselves. When we show up with each other in that kind of fully-authentic, I’m-all-the-way-here kind of way, it tends to strengthen the muscle so that we can do it with our partners and our families and our PTA meetings and our work.

31:00

Amanda Testa: It’s so powerful, and I think one of the things that I’ve learned just in my own experience, like you say, it takes time, and that’s what I love about rituals and the things that you repeat again and again, that they're simple, even if it’s that spaciousness of two minutes. Creating the ritual of doing it again and again is so powerful on many levels because you do see the change when you keep doing it. You can see how little things make a difference to the whole, which makes it feel easier to make small steps and know that you might not be the one to see the end, but you're gonna keep building towards what you want, which I think is so important, right?

Nina Simons: Absolutely. Absolutely it is, and for anyone who’s at all scientifically inclined, it helps to know that you actually build new neural pathways when you do something repetitively day after day after day, and it strengthens us. I mean, I think on some level that having a commitment to myself has strengthened my connection to the sacred and also strengthened my sense of self-authority because, as much as there are many, many people in my life that I love, my greatest responsibility feels like it’s to myself and to life, to whatever I call sacred, which in my case is mother life.

32:26

Amanda Testa: And I’d love, too -- you know, I feel like there are so many things that I want to talk to you about, but I’m wondering just if there was one main message that you would want the listeners to really take home today, what would you love for that to be?

Nina Simons: Hmm, well, I think that we strengthen our capacity to become fully who we’re born to be by trusting ourselves, by investing in ourselves and each other, by connecting more deeply, more authentically with those around us, and that one of the things I have come to realize is that I have a different understanding now for why a patriarchal culture set us up to be in cat fights with each other.

33:25

Because women who are in authentic, committed, caring relationship with each other, I think, is the greatest untapped resource we have in the world today. We’ve inherited a world where the native people sometimes say, “The bird of humanity has flown with only one wing for far too long,” and the feminine is needed to be brought back into balance, not only in ourselves as female-identified people, but in the masculine and in our schools and our organizations and our cultures and our workplaces and our governments, because every study in the world today is showing that as women gain greater authority and greater autonomy and come more fully into leadership, including as parents, including as citizens, including as artists, all the ways we can lead, everything gets better around us.

34:33

The men get healthier. The children get healthier. There’s more food. The water gets cleaner. The air gets better. I mean, really, everything improves.

So, I think what I’ve come to realize is that my new definition of leadership is finding the place where our specific individual gifts and talents meet a need for reinvention in the world that’s something that we really love and feel devoted and in service to, and when you connect those three elements, I think we become unstoppable, and it’s so joyful! Why would we want to do anything else?

So, I think that was a long-winded way of offering a very loving message to every woman out there.

35:24

Amanda Testa: Oh, I love it, and it just hit deeply and resonated. Thank you so much.

Nina Simons: Oh, my pleasure.

Amanda Testa: And it’s just an honor to learn from you and to hear your wisdom, so thank you so much for being here. And I’d love if you would just share with the listeners where they can connect with you more and all those good things. I’ll also put this in the show notes, but just for those listening so they can know where to find more of you.

Nina Simons: Sure, well, for those listening, let’s see, there’s a URL, which if you go to @bioneers, you can sign up for Bioneers’ newsletter, which is fabulous, but also, you can access a free download of the introduction to my book, Nature, Culture, and the Sacred. That is at www.bioneers.org/ncsbook, and I also have my own website, which is www.ninasimons.com, and I’m also on LinkedIn and Twitter and all those things, but not often because I’m wild busy still, even though I’m trying to slow down, and there are lots of podcasts and videos online. I’d love to hear from you!

36:38

And also, if you do get the book, do me the great gift of doing a review on Amazon because it really helps get the word out, and it’s hard to get the word out on a book these days, even one as beautiful as mine. So, that’s what I would offer.

And Amanda, thank you for starting and keeping going this beautiful podcast. I really look forward to it and to learning more about your work.

37:04

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much. For all of those listening, I’ll also put where you can find her book and all those great links in the show notes, but I do encourage you to read it. It’s so good, and one of the things that you mentioned earlier, too, that really just struck is just the power of words and really be intentional about that. I think that is such a gift, even just listening to words. Our words are powerful, and thank you for sharing your wisdom here, and for all of you listening, thank you for being here.

Nina Simons: Thank you.

Amanda Testa: We will see you next time!

_______

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]EPISODE 261: Nina Simons

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Amanda Testa is a trusted healer, coach, and guide who’s served hundreds of clients over the years with masterful skills in coaching, pleasure embodiment, and somatic trauma resolution.

After thousands of hours of training in trauma informed sex and relationship coaching, tantric sex coaching, energy healing, somatic trauma resolution, breathwork, yoni egg coaching and more, she’s seen time and time again the magic and wisdom of our bodies.

We all have the ability to return to our blueprint of health, aliveness, pleasure and sovereignty, and you can too.

With her powerful, loving and gentle support her clients find their desire and pleasure again, find safety and bliss in their bodies, and remember they are enough just as they are.

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EPISODE 260: Groundskeeping in Relationships


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hey, what’s up? It’s Amanda! If you're enjoying this pod, and you know you are ready to say yes to more pleasure, and you are just wanting to know, “How the hell do I do it,” well, you’re in luck because as of now, we have spots available in The Pleasure Foundation, which is my pleasure membership where twice a month you get an amazing practice that teaches you how to drop into your body, to become more connected to yourself, and to learn the art of sacred self-care. So, if this is something you're interested in, go to www.amandatesta.com/tpf (as in The Pleasure Foundation) and we will see you there!

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0:59

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! I am your host, Amanda Testa, and today I’m going to be talking around revitalizing your relationships. I’m gonna share with you a little bit about an archetype I love to work with here, and then I have my amazing husband Mark Testa here. Welcome, Mark.

Mark Testa: Thanks for having me.

Amanda Testa: I convinced him to come on and talk again because we were having an awesome conversation this morning about the mundane shit you do in a relationship to make it good, and I was like, “Actually, that’s a really good podcast topic.” So, here we are talking about it! And it actually goes really in line with an archetype I like to work with called The Groundskeeper. The Groundskeeper, this is, again, part of the ReBloom body of work, but I love The Groundskeeper because basically when you think about a groundskeeper, if you think about a garden, right, they're the person that’s out there weeding and watering and moving things in and out of the sun and making sure everything in the garden is tended to. When you think about this archetype, it really is this archetype of vitality and aliveness and nourishment and safety.

2:04

And so, what the intention with this archetype is it wants to bring in steady rhythms of emotional and embodied regulation. So, with The Groundskeeper archetype online, your body, your relationships, and your life become fertile ground for medicine, magic, love, and creativity to flow through. It’s like these little rhythms and routines that take care of the health of your relationship, and the intention here is that you are kind of creating these environments, first of all in yourself through your own personal work, and also in your relationship. Sometimes this can be hard because depending on what was going on in our lives, depending on the traumas or whatever we might be carrying, we have different abilities to care for ourselves, but the more you let this part come online, the more you kind of nourish this blueprint of The Groundskeeper, the more you’re able to kind of be the calm in the storm.

So, I like to think about this example. So, you’ve probably heard your calm is contagious, and when we have a strong groundskeeper, when this archetype is strong and alive in us and in our relationship, when the waves come, you're a steady force versus the waves taking you down, versus the emotional intensity of your kid’s meltdown or stresses with work or financial things.

3:14

When those things come along, then you are strong enough to withstand that, versus when The Groundskeeper is not very healthy, you're gonna get taken out by the first thing that’s upsetting, right? These are all things we learn and grow in, right babe?

Mark Testa: Mm-hmm.

Amanda Testa: Because most of us, our lives don't elicit a beautiful groundskeeper oftentimes, so we have to bring it back online, especially as a parent, especially in a relationship.

So, I’m curious for you too, Mark, even just as I’m sharing all this, what comes up for you?

Mark Testa: I think you’ve got to -- from a man’s perspective?

Amanda Testa: Yeah, just to even have that lens of what that means to you.

Mark Testa: Yeah, I think what it means is, yeah, it is mundane stuff, and you have to be strong at chopping wood and carrying water. Everything’s not special.

4:01

Everything’s not exciting. You’ve just got to be comfortable doing it, and you've got to keep doing the work, and it doesn't come easy, and it doesn't come natural, and it comes back to self-awareness, but that doesn't come by itself either, right?

You know when we met, I was already studying a lot of this stuff and working on a lot of this stuff and thought I had it down until I met you. [Laughs] But it’s always just a work in progress.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, well I think the self-awareness part is key, and this is something that I hear a lot with couples, especially when you're in the weeds with young kids and just trying to balance all the duties and the mental exhaustion and just the depletion that parenting can feel like when you have small kids. First of all, anyone out there listening that has small kids, I just want to remind you that things will get better. Things will get better. I was even listening to a podcast with Michelle Obama the other day talking about how they just suck the life out of you because they're so intense, and so, your relationship, it might feel depleted, but just stay the course, and I promise it gets better.

4:59

But we were talking about this because these are some of the things that you can start to do even when you feel in the weeds, and I think even most importantly when you feel like that, because when you're in your most health in this groundkeeper energy, here are the things that you do:

Number one, you devote regular care to your health, wellness, and thriving. You prioritize your physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual wellbeing for the sake of those around you and your own body. You keep yourself at safe distances from things that are unsafe like behaviors, situations, locations, and people that are not healthy to be around. You remove the things that are hurtful, that are harmful, that are unhealthy, and this also creates more vitality, more strength, more energy to deal with all of the things that are on your plate, and especially in times of stress.

Mark Testa: You definitely have to be your own advocate, 100%, at first, right? Like they always say on the airplane, put the mask on yourself first because you can't help anybody -- and it’s easy to not prioritize physical health. Not many people exercise. Not enough people exercise, but that’s a great mood enhancer.

6:03

It’s great for anxiety and depression. It’s better than sugar for treating mood issues, keeping a distance away from bad behavior, right? If you know certain things are gonna throw you down the rabbit hole, you’ve got to avoid that, and same with people, right? That’s too easy to go down the rabbit hole with negative people in your life. And so, you’ve got to protect yourself first before you can be of value to other people.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I think sometimes when you're a parent it can feel hard, especially if your kids are little and they need a ton of hands-on attention, but I will say here’s one of the things that’s important to note is that the more you care for yourself, the better you’ll be able to care for others.

I remember when my kiddo was a baby, I was a personal trainer. I taught this workout for mom called Stroller Strides, which is from a franchise called FIT4MOM. So, if there’s one in your community, I would highly recommend you check it out because a couple of things happened there. Number one is that you have a group of moms to support you when things are hard. You get to workout. You get to have that endorphin release. You get to have the community and connection.

7:01

So, I think things like that are really important, and when you think you don't have time or you can't get away, these are the things that you can get creative in finding ways to take care of yourself because, again, a lot of places you’ll go to have childcare, even the Y, and even if it’s swapping with a neighbor or a friend so that you can each have time to take care of yourselves is so important.

Also, really noting that The Groundskeeper is really good at noting what needs to be weeded and watered. So, as much as schedules can not be consistent sometimes in life, especially when you have kids and things change or they get sick or have a meltdown and you’ve got to kind of reroute your plan for the day or your morning or whatever it is, you’ve got to have that flexibility. When you can kind of take a little look at your day, I always encourage you, even with a relationship -- I want to kind of pivot this talk to really focus in on relationships because I think this is so pertinent there. But look in the morning, what are the things that you're doing that invite connection, that invite harmony, and what are the things that don't, right?

Mark Testa: Mm-hmm. I know my morning routine is all about me, and I felt bad this morning about it, too, because we had some child stuff going on, and I went to the gym.

8:08

I want to tell you, though, I was quickly aware that that was probably not the best thing for me to do, leaving you with our daughter. And so, I’m sorry. I’ll cook dinner tonight. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Thankfully, you do cook dinner, and I do appreciate that so much. But this is the thing. This is the thing about the rhythms and routines that are supportive is that noticing what that is for you, right? So, in the morning, what we notice is typically I need my alone time, Mark needs his alone time. There’s nothing wrong with that because we do. We need that time in the morning when it’s quiet before our kid’s awake to feel good about ourselves, to shake off the cobwebs, wake up, get ourselves into a good mindset. And when that doesn't happen, I can tell a difference.

And so, normally, what happens is I get up pretty early and I have my little spot, and then Mark gets up and he has his little spot. But we do make little connection points within all that, right?

8:58

Usually, if I can tell he’s awake when I get up, I’ll just make a point to touch his body in some way or just grab his leg or just somehow give a little physical touch. And then when he comes out of the bedroom, I used to totally ignore him, and I realized that was kind of rude. And so, because I would be so into my journaling or whatever I was like, “Don't look up. Don't look up.” But that’s rude. You can't just totally ignore someone.

Mark Testa: I didn't mind that either.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, so that’s one of the things is when you weed and water, you realize, “Oh, when he comes out, I’m gonna pause. I’m gonna look up. I’m gonna say, ‘Good morning. I love you, babe,’ and we have a little interaction, and then he goes down to his thing,” right? So, this is the beauty of weeding and watering. You do this mundane shit. Like we were talking about, it’s mundane. It’s not sexy. But these are the things that you can notice, “Where am I inviting in connection, and where am I pushing it away? Where am I inviting in an opportunity to be loving, and where am I pushing it away,” because those little things make a huge difference in a relationship.

Mark Testa: Yeah, I’ve noticed, yeah, for sure, when we make a point to do those little things, it goes a really, really long way, and it can be little stuff, you know? Like, we were eating breakfast. I had the dishwasher open. I helped you clear your plates, right? Super simple. I think that’s really important to have that ability to be of value to other people even in the small, little, mundane things.

10:12

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, and I know everyone’s busy, everyone’s tired, but you also have to be self-aware in, “How am I contributing,” because it’s easy to let one person do all the things, and let’s be honest, oftentimes, this can be the woman-identifying person in the relationship that does a lot of the things or the front-facing parent because they are on the frontlines of taking care of the kids, cleaning up the house, doing all of that, but what happens is kind of looking in like, “Where can I contribute, and where do I enjoy contributing?” The good thing about Mark is he is a really amazing cook, an awesome cook, so he loves to cook, and that’s a creative expression, right babe?

Mark Testa: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: What would you say? Why do you enjoy it?

Mark Testa: It is a creative expression. I like to make good things that are healthy that taste good. Nobody really likes cleaning the kitchen, but I like a clean kitchen so I can cook in it. So, I kind of take control of the kitchen and cleaning up and the detailed work in there as well, but it’s all just part of -- you know, that’s easy for me, and it contributes far and wide for our family.

11:10

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and so, I think it's like when you're talking about self-awareness, what are the mundane things that I could be doing that I’m choosing not to do, where if I stepped up and did this, it would make a big impact on my relationship, because like, for so many women that I talk to, if there are any dudes listening, if there are any people listening, I just want to give you a little reminder that the more you can step up and help, the more you’ll be appreciated because no one person can carry the load for everything, and for everyone that looks different, right? It doesn't have to be exactly equal because it’s not gonna be equal, but it’s like where is there a way you could help your partner in whatever way that is, or if it’s me helping you, right? It’s like what are the things to just pick when you do that weeding and watering throughout the day and looking at, “Where could I potentially help?”

So, for example, you take these pockets of your day. So, looking at your morning, what happens here? Okay, then the next segment of the day, right? Getting our kid off to school. What happens there? Whose role is what? Where can we invite in more connection? Where are we missing an opportunity for connection, right?

12:06

So, for example, one little thing for me is that my kiddo gets up early, and sometimes I’m like, “Oh, man. That’s 30 minutes I could have been doing something else that I needed to do or more work I needed to do,” but I’ve shifted my mindset around that to be like, “How awesome is this that I have 30 minutes and my kid wants to come and snuggle with me, and I know that’s a fleeting thing, so I’m gonna enjoy it, and we’re gonna chitchat, and we’re gonna just snuggle, and I’m gonna just let that be quiet time where I can just connect with her.” That’s an opportunity, right? That’s an opportunity for connection versus feeling like I know we’re all busy trying to get to work. We all have to get started at the same time in the morning, so we need to be showered and ready and fed and lunches packed and everything by 9:00 AM. But even so, it’s like what can you do to create more connection in that time, and do you really need to fold the laundry right then or could that just wait, and let it pile up a little bit so you can connect with your kid, right?

Mark Testa: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: That’s the thing, too. You don't go to the gym every day, because oftentimes you are helping. Like, if I'm busy in the morning, then you’ll make me breakfast or hang out with her or entertain our kiddo while we get things done.

13:04

Mark Testa: So yeah, among that whole weeding and stuff, you’ve got to have flexibility, too, right? So, things that you want to do to take care of yourself sometimes need to be moved to later in the day or you don't get to do it that day because there’s a better use of your time or a higher priority that has a bigger effect on the whole family and the whole system. It’s more important to do something like that and put yourself last sometimes.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and I think, too, when you look out through the day, just taking care to look at the mundane things, like, “What could I be doing that I’m not, where could I step up a little bit that I’m not, where could I maybe add a little more connection that I’m not,” because, at the end of the day, when you're not taking the opportunity to be connecting, to offer your heart or to offer support or to be loving, that’s going in the opposite direction, right?

Mark Testa: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: You do a lot of work around your own self-awareness, and that’s one of the things I really appreciate about you is that we each do our own work so that we can show up more strong for our relationship and our family, because it is. You can't do it alone.

14:08

There has to be a willingness from both parties. So, I’m wondering for you, when it comes to self-awareness, what’s some of the work that you do, what are some of the things that you do to help you there?

Mark Testa: Well, first thing in the morning is I journal. That’s probably the most consistent, really deep work, that reflection on self-awareness. So, what’d I dream about, what am I talking to myself about, what did I wake up in the middle of the night about on my mind, I write all that down, and then I have a daily -- so, those are the top two things, but then the third thing I work on in my journal are the daily words (diet, exercise, meditation, stoicism, surrendering, being resilient). All these words that mean something to me, things that I want to work on that I journal about, like, “How am I doing on this, what could I be doing better on in this, what does this really mean to me, how am I gonna get this to implement in my day?”

15:02

Am I perfect at the outcome of all that? No, but I remind myself literally of about a dozen or 18 different prompts every single day in my journal that are important to me. And I just added a new one yesterday on something that I read that I felt like I need to have a little more work and awareness around. So, that tool, that technique of that sort of journaling for me has been really very helpful, keeping the important things very top of mind.

Amanda Testa: What was the new thing that you came up with?

Mark Testa: Sufficiency.

Amanda Testa: Ooh.

Mark Testa: Right? Who’s that author that talks a lot about that? I’m blanking. Anyway, sufficiency, like what you have is enough. You have enough, and so, what does that actually mean? It’s not just about money either. It’s about just what you have is sufficient, right?

Amanda Testa: Just like gratitude, basically, right?

Mark Testa: Not quite gratitude, but kind of. I’ve actually, speaking of gratitude, switched gratitude to being thankful. It feels more active than just saying, “I’m grateful for…” I’m actually thankful for because I’m thanking something.

Amanda Testa: Ooh, I like that.

16:10

Mark Testa: So yeah, that’s my main thing every day, and then of course I listen to podcasts and exercise, and I have you in my ear frequently, which I’m grateful for. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Oh, I love it. I think, too, the other fun thing is making time to connect when it feels challenging. Like, okay, when you're looking at -- so often I hear from couples, “Oh, we just never have time to connect. We never have time.” And so, that’s when you get to be creative, right? You get to be creative on when you can squeeze in some time for connection, when you can find ways to get creative, and sometimes it is kind of a fun challenge --

Mark Testa: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: -- especially when you don't have a lot of alone time. So, this can be a way to just invite in more fun and playfulness because, yeah, maybe you lock yourself in the closet and laugh about how there’s no room, and it’s just hysterical and funny, but you find a minute to connect here and there. Or maybe you have all your kids in school, and you have the flexibility of having alone time when they're in school. And so, maybe it’s dropping them off at a friend’s house or locking the door and putting a movie on, all the ways that you can find connection points. Because what happens oftentimes is when we’re overwhelmed we have a couple ways that we can respond, right?

17:19

Oftentimes, it can be either number one, having outbursts just like you’ve held it in, and then you’re pissed about something or you're holding resentment, and then you just unleash, and of course that doesn't go well for anyone. Alternatively, people often shut down or there’s a lot of numbness or, “I don't have the capacity to do that, so I’m just gonna shut down or go away or do whatever,” and everybody responds differently. There are so many different ways we respond, and there’s so much attachment stuff here, too, but also just kind of noticing what that is for you and in your relationship and what patterns normally show up for who, and as I talked about on last week’s podcast, sometimes you might find that you have a lot more health in this area than your partner, or maybe your partner has a lot more health in this area than you. Whoever has the most health in this area has to step up and inspire the other one, because this is just how it is.

18:08

Sometimes one person might be -- you might shift who’s the person that’s got more health, but the thing is at the end of the day, do you want harmony, or do you want to be right, right? Because if you're holding out for something because you don't want to apologize again or you're always the one that has to do this or, “I’m always the one that has to do that,” that’s another time self-responsibility comes in where that self-awareness piece of, “Wouldn't it be great if my partner could do this? However, I don't even know if they have the capacity to, but I do know that I have the capacity, so I’m gonna make the step to create the harmony that I crave,” right? Because oftentimes it’s not because your partner won't or they don't want to. It’s because they don't have the capacity. They don't have that skill. And so, this is why you always want to continually learn and grow.

Mark Testa: Mm-hmm, and we’re in relationships, so if you want it to be harmonious, everybody’s got to kind of do their part. I know when we are doing our part without asking for anything in return and just doing it, we get along a lot better. When we get along a lot better, we communicate a lot better, and when we communicate a lot better, we actually take the effort and initiative to connect more, and it’s a beautiful cycle that just keeps going around and around.

19:15

When you connect more intimately together, then you want to help each other and you want to communicate to your partner better. It really is. I mean, it definitely goes full circle and around again. It’s all interconnected. There’s just no one -- you can't isolate anything. It all needs to kind of work together holistically.

Amanda Testa: Right, and the other thing to think about, too, is connection is like that antidote to disconnect, to numbness, to addiction, to all the things that can be hard, right? So, when you think about one person who might have more skills in the area than others, that is a lot around coregulation, right? That’s when one person’s nervous system is calm, is soothed, is functioning optimally, then you can bring that gift to someone else, and them being in your presence can bring that embodied regulation to them.

20:04

As a parent, you might notice this. When they say your calm is contagious because when you are calm, when your nervous system is calm and you take your dysregulated child in your arms and you hold them, they calm based on your nervous system. The same thing is true for your relationship.

Mark Testa: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And so, I just invite this because this is how you can be more proactive in your situation, right?

Mark Testa: Yes. Very.

Amanda Testa: And so, maybe there are these practices that you and your partner can do together that are coregulating. Oftentimes, we like to make time for each other and just connect and lie together and talk and just be, like that physical closeness.

Mark Testa: Yeah, that’s great, I know. It’s very connecting. It just lowers all guards. We communicate really deeply about cool stuff, which is kind of how we got started into wanting to do this podcast together. Yeah, so…

Amanda Testa: I think the other cool thing that we’ve learned since we’ve done this work together is, oftentimes what I see happening in relationships or what people will do is because maybe they have not been able to experience physical touch that didn't have a hunger to it.

21:13

And so, what I mean by that is a hungry touch is a touch that wants something, right? A loving touch is a touch that just wants to give and be loving. And so, I think, oftentimes, in long-term relationships if, let’s just say, maybe one person is touching with a hungry touch all the time and the other person doesn't want that, they will just stop touching altogether.

So, I’ll invite for, again, any dudes out there listening who are like hmm, don't always touch with a hungry touch. Just touch to touch, because the more you touch without expectation, the more your partner will relax into your touch and actually enjoy it and want to reciprocate.

Mark Testa: Right, and not that I’ve never touched you with a hungry touch, but I just think the more work we do together, the more we communicate, the more when I hold you, I feel you differently. I know that sounds weird, just like as my partner, as somebody that I love, as another human being, somebody who’s got my back, somebody who I want to support. The connection is actually deeper than the superficial, temporal touch of a hungry touch. It’s much better. It’s deeper, more meaningful.

22:14

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, yeah, and then you want to touch each other all the time!

Mark Testa: Yeah! Right. Exactly!

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Mark Testa: I’m touching her under the table as we speak.

Amanda Testa: We touch and kiss all the time, and I think it’s great and fun. And so, this is possible for you, too, and this is why what I want you to take from this podcast is do some weeding and watering of your relationship. Notice, “Where can I invite in compassion to whatever is going on,” and find more ways to connect, right? Maybe it’s just looking through those rhythms throughout your day. What can I do to invite in more connection, to invite in more self-awareness, to invite in more health for myself, or to invite in more health for my relationship, which of course expands into your family and beyond. And so, that’s the point that I want to make clear.

Mark Testa: And I would say, too, the other half of the relationship that doesn't want to do this, that doesn't feel like it’s what they want to do, it’s too soft for them, it’s too, I don't know, emotional, it’s too all of that, if you feel that, that’s a problem.

23:10

You’ve got to accept all that because that’s the only way you can nurture everything. You’ve got to be soft. You've got to go into that whole part of that that doesn't feel right, doesn't feel natural. I can't say some of the things we do together that I jump in with both feet. I do, but I might feel a little self-conscious like, “Well, this is a little weird,” but I’m always really, really glad that I did it.

Amanda Testa: Aww.

Mark Testa: Right? So, I’m not saying that it is weird, but just what I’m saying is for some masculine yang people out there, it might not be part of kind of who you are, but we’re talking about that, right? There’s the yin and the yang of the relationship, and everything has that sort of pattern in it, and you just have to be able to flow with that. When you look at that symbol, there’s that white dot among the black, and there’s that black dot among the white, and that means you’ve got to let a little of each into who you are in order to have the harmony that you're looking for.

24:17

Amanda Testa: Oh, that’s so good, and I appreciate you. Thank you for being open, and the willingness that you have, I’m so grateful for it.

Mark Testa: It always comes out of the other end unexpectedly better than I could have planned. That’s part of my word surrender is you surrender to what is, and you can’t even predict what the other side of that looks like. You can't even predict it. You don't even want to try to predict it because our predictions are based on very limited experiences. I want to experience something unpredicted, unpredictable, unexperienced already --

Amanda Testa: Yes. Yes.

Mark Testa: -- something better.

Amanda Testa: Ooh, that’s so good. I think that’s the beauty of surrender, too, especially when you're talking about relationships and sex, it’s like when you can surrender, that is where the magic is.

25:03

You have to let go of control, and it’s scary for people. And just like you were saying, even just I appreciate the willingness because it is true. Most men-identifying people, people that are raised as men in this culture are not taught to be emotionally open. They're not taught to be vulnerable. That is actually viewed as a flaw coming along, right? And so, it’s not easy to be that emotional and soft, as Mark was saying. So, it takes work, but I think that’s the point that he’s making. At least this is what I see from it. You can let me know if this is true or not --

Mark Testa: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: -- because I could be just hallucinating here. But for those out there who feel really strongly like this feels weird or it’s hard, it is. It is hard. It’s hard for everybody to be vulnerable, but the thing is, when you can kind of soften that machismo guard and really let your partner in more emotionally and share who you are more emotionally, there’s such deep connection on the other side of that.

Mark Testa: And that’s what we all want. That’s what we all want. And so, we harden to protect ourselves.

26:00

Maybe we tried it and it didn't work, and so, we think being hard or trying to control is gonna be the way to not get hurt or to have control. Really, all that is is another wall. It’s another barrier. It’s another arm’s length. It’s another disconnection. In one way, it’s easy to be by yourself, right? When you let someone else in, now you've got to start dealing with other things and other moods and other other, but what we want is that relationship and that connection. Like you said, whether it’s any kind of addiction or any other mood or whatever, the connection is the elixir to fix all that, the human connection. We’re not meant to be alone. We’re not meant to be without a group. I mean, back in the tribal days, that was certain death. We need each other.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm. Agreed.

Mark Testa: I’ve got to go pick up poop for us. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Oh, yeah. So, yes, and it can feel scary to cultivate these embodied connections, but that’s the work of it, right?

27:04

And it’s so worth it on the other side. So, if it feels hard for you, know that’s normal. It might feel uncomfortable, but it’s so worth it because at the end of the day, that’s what we want. We want that deep connection. We want that connection on all the levels, right -- physically, emotionally, mentally, all the things. And it is like the pieces in a puzzle, but there are little things that you can do, like these mundane things you do, that make it easier or harder at the end of the day.

So, I’ll just invite you to go through your day, do some groundskeeping, and let me know what happens for you. Maybe if there are any ahas that you get, please connect with me because I love hearing all your stories. You can find me @abtesta on Instagram. You can message me, and I’d love to hear how this went for you, and thank you again, Mark, for being here.

Mark Testa: And I’ll offer this, too. I mean, maybe you don't want me to, but --

Amanda Testa: No, please!

Mark Testa: -- your male or male-identifying audience, I’m glad to talk to them about this sort of thing because if you're gonna be with someone, be with someone. Don't be with someone just to go through the motions, and in the back of your mind and in your subconscious be unhappy and be miserable and look for an escape in whatever it is that you go to because that’s not the whole purpose here. So anyway, I’m glad to (you can reach out to Amanda) take a few questions.

28:23

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think what would be really good is we should do more podcasts and let you have your -- you can speak to that perspective.

Mark Testa: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Thank you.

Mark Testa: I’d love to. I’m gonna go pick up poop in our backyard and keep our grounds clean.

Amanda Testa: He’s joking. We have a big ole golden retriever who makes a mess of the backyard, so he’s joking about helping out by cleaning up, which I think I do pick up most of the poop actually.

Mark Testa: Ah, I do it on Saturday, but we’re not keeping track. That’s the good thing we do.

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Mark Testa: We don't keep track.

Amanda Testa: And it’s funny because we laugh, and I’m the one that wanted the dog, but we both love the dog even though he doesn't want to admit it. I catch him loving on the dog.

Mark Testa: [Laughs]

29:00

Amanda Testa: Anyways, well, thank you all for listening, and I will look forward to being back with you next week!

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[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!

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Amanda Testa is a trusted healer, coach, and guide who’s served hundreds of clients over the years with masterful skills in coaching, pleasure embodiment, and somatic trauma resolution.

After thousands of hours of training in trauma informed sex and relationship coaching, tantric sex coaching, energy healing, somatic trauma resolution, breathwork, yoni egg coaching and more, she’s seen time and time again the magic and wisdom of our bodies.

We all have the ability to return to our blueprint of health, aliveness, pleasure and sovereignty, and you can too.

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EPISODE 259: Dealing with a Negative Partner


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I know often I hear from clients that it can be challenging when your partner is being negative to work on your relationship or to work on yourself. And so, today in this episode, I’m going to be talking with what you can do about a negative partner or how you can deal with a negative partner and continue to move forward even if your partner is not supportive or is being negative or maybe you’re going through some kind of transition where they're not available for you in the way that you want them to be. So, just make yourself a little comfortable, and we are gonna dive right in!

So, I also just want to note as we start that we are all human, right?

1:00

We all have cycles. We have times when we’re feeling good, times when we’re feeling not-so-good, and these things can happen. Oftentimes, it can feel really challenging when your partner’s negative and you feel like they're not taking ownership and they're bringing you down and all the things, and your relationship really is one of the most important things in your life, right? It’s the lifeblood of your family. It really makes a difference in how you show up when you're getting along versus when you're not, and when your relationship is flowing and you feel connected and you feel good, that expands into other areas of your life. And when your relationship feels hard, when it feels like there’s constant conflict, when there’s turmoil, when the energy’s bad, when you're not feeling connected, that also shows up in other areas of your life, right? And so, what do you do about this? I’m gonna share some tips around this today.

So, one of the first things is you want to just try to have empathy for their situation to start, empathy for what they may be going through, right?

2:02

Maybe they are going through a lot of stress on their own that they may or may not be sharing with you. Maybe they’ve experienced a traumatic event. Maybe they’ve had certain things that might be bubbling up from earlier in their lives. Maybe it could be all kinds of things.

So, first of all, I always invite in trying to have a little empathy for whatever their situation might be, what you know about them, and notice if it feels possible to view things from their perspective. I get that can feel really hard to do when we’re stuck in our own narratives, but it could be helpful just to try to put yourself in their shoes. What might they be experiencing? What’s going on in their life? If you could put yourself in a day of their life, what might be going on to have them behave the way they’re behaving? Sometimes that could just offer you a little more compassion in which to view the situation, right? So, just having that empathetic lens can be so supportive in that way.

3:02

Secondly is also realizing that so often these things are not about you, right? So often it is not about you. It’s rarely about you, and yes, it can hurt your self-esteem. Yes, it can make you feel bad about yourself if your partner is hurting your feelings or in a bad mood, but most often it’s not about you, right? It’s about them and what they're experiencing. So, again, you want to try to meet them where they are. If they are in a really down mood a lot and you're feeling extra peppy and excited, that might feel hard for them if they're feeling in a depressive state of their lives or maybe they're under a ton of stress. So just noticing how you can be your true self but maybe also honor where they are. You’re not trying to change who you are because you know the more you can be yourself, the better. But when it’s feeling hard to feel on the same level, maybe just notice how it might feel to meet them where they are.

4:00

Next is to resist the urge to fix. This can be so very challenging, but it is not your responsibility to make your partner happy. Let that one sink in. It is not your job to make your partner happy. Can you give yourself permission to just let go of that responsibility? So often, as the woman in a relationship, you feel like the caretaker, like you’ve got to make everyone’s needs met, like you’ve got to take care of everybody, right? Once everyone’s happy, then you can feel happy. When everyone’s content, then you can feel content. Let me just tell you, that is a losing battle. You will not win that. You are not gonna win trying to make everyone happy. So, you know it’s not your job to fix them. That’s something that they’re gonna have to do for themselves, and while this is true, you can also be an inspiration, right? This is why it’s so key.

So often people come to me, and their partners are not ready to work on the relationship, are not willing to be involved in the process, but when you are doing the work on yourself, you can be an inspiration, right?

5:05

You can be a source of goodness for your partner, and oftentimes the key here is making sure that you get support for yourself. Getting support for yourself is key, and I know in my experience, as I’ve shared with you before, a few years ago my husband had a stroke, and he was dealing with a lot of things. He was healing on his own. There was a lot going on, and there were times when he was unable to meet me or unable to give me what I needed at the time, you know? It was really hard, but also, I realized he was dealing with his own things. He was dealing with his own healing. His brain was getting itself back together. So, it was unfair of me to think he could meet me in those moments when he needed to take care of himself.

Oftentimes, I think that we can put unfair expectations on our partners in that way, right? We may expect things from them that they are unable to give, and while it can feel really frustrating, this is your life partner.

6:02

You want them to be there for you. You want them to be able to give you what you need, and sometimes they are just simply incapable, and it’s not fair to ask of someone what they are unable to give. So, in those situations, that’s when it’s really important to find support for yourself. Who are the people that can support you? Who are your friends that can help you meet your needs? How can you get support for yourself, right? Always remembering you matter, your needs matter, and you need to get support for yourself, okay?

Again, that could be reaching out to friends, making sure you're spending time with people that light you up. Make a regular date with a good friend and see that person every week if you need to. Maybe join an exercise group or a walking group or a book club or something where you can have a regular connection with people that make you feel good. Maybe you want to reach out for support from someone like me or a therapist or a coach. Sometimes in these situations it can be where you need to get support from someone outside of yourself.

7:03

Maybe there are family members that are really supportive and loving that you could spend more time with, but just making sure that you are supporting yourself and that you are putting your happiness first is so key, right? This is one of the next things. Prioritizing your happiness, doing the things that make you feel good, doing the things that light you up because when you do that kind of thing, you're gonna be more connected to yourself, and then you’ll have more resilience to handle the challenging partner.

One of the things I think is really key here, I love one of my mentors, Layla Martin talks about this. You can be the initiatrix for what you want in your relationship. Sometimes you have to go first, and I know oftentimes people are saying, “Ugh, I don't always want to be the one to do this. Ugh, I don't always want to have to be the one to apologize. Ugh, I don't always want to have to be the one to do this,” but here’s my question. What do you want at the end of the day? Do you want harmony or do you want to be right? Do you want to have connection or do you want to hold out in hopes for something to happen that’s probably not gonna happen, right?

8:02

At the end of the day, sometimes we are just who we are, and we have different relationship patterns, we have different attachment styles, and based on that, it can affect how we show up in our relationship, right? So, if maybe you're the one that tends to be the peacemaker, that is something that you can look at as, “This is a gift that I have that I’m able to make peace. This is a gift that I have that I’m able to come back to a place of resolution or a place of more capacity inside myself where I can, then, be calm and go to my partner and initiate resolution,” right? That is a gift that you have, and you can be the initiatrix in bringing that to your relationship and bringing that to your partner, right?

So, I know it can feel annoying, but at the same time, view it as an opportunity, right? Can you shift your mindset to, “Wow, this is a great opportunity that I’m the one that can bring our relationship back to harmony, that I have that skill,” and there are probably some times where you're not able and your partner will be, right? But the more that you can do it, the more you can inspire, that can transform your relationship. Again, this is why focusing on making your own happiness a priority is so important. You can bring in this goodness.

9:10

A lot of times, you know, just to speak to this again, I have an example of a client who felt like their partner was just negative a lot, right? They were always feeling like they were protecting the kids from his negativity, protecting their family from their bad moods and all of this, feeling like they were just doing so much work of holding it together, keeping the family together, keeping everyone happy and protecting kids from that negativity, and while sometimes that’s commendable and important, it’s also important to realize sometimes we all go through hard times in life, and sometimes that can leave a residue that is hard to get through.

So again, having empathy again for those partners or those experiences where you're having that can be really important. Also inviting your children into that perspective of understanding. You can't protect them from everything, right? You can't protect them from your partner’s negativity all the time, and I think in those instances, it’s really important to explain how life can be challenging, and, “Yes, it might be a period of time where dad’s really in a bad mood a lot, right?

10:15

So, what do you think we could do to support him during this hard time?” Or just letting your kids know this is just life, right? We’re not happy 24/7, especially when you share a home with someone. There are times where things are up and down, and these cycles, we all go through them, so the more empathy you can bring to your kids as well, the more they can be understanding.

Also, I think these are some things you can do in these situations where you feel like your partner’s negativity is bringing the whole family down is, again, inviting in that initiatrix energy. Here are some things you can do, some ideas you can try on.

Number one, maybe you invite in a family gratitude journal, right? So that you keep it somewhere that -- it’s on the kitchen table or near the junk drawer or wherever it is, where people can just take turns writing down good things that are happening.

11:07

These little things like this can be little reminders, right? The people that are feeling good can support the ones that aren't feeling so good. Your positivity is contagious. Your calm is contagious. Your joy is contagious. So, just as your partner’s negativity might feel contagious, you can also bring your own goodness to help balance that out.

Maybe at dinner, you take turns sharing one good thing about your day, right? My kiddo has this really beautiful ritual she learned from her kindergarten teacher, and we still do it to this day. It’s called a rose, stem, and a thorn. So, every day at dinner, we each take turns, and we share our rose (that’s the best part of your day), the stem (something you’ve learned), and the thorn (might be something that was challenging or not ideal). If you feel like there were a lot of challenges, maybe you could just omit that part, but I also think it can just be great to just acknowledge what’s going on for every person. It doesn't even take long, and it can really be helpful because it can also get your partner to see the goodness that is around them, right?

12:08

Sometimes, again, we would love for our partners to get support, and sometimes they're open to that, and sometimes they're not. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, right? It’s not your job to fix. I’m just reminding you it’s not your job to fix. Oftentimes with my clients, maybe their partner is resistant to therapy because they had a bad experience in the past, and so, maybe it’s where you just don't pressure, don't push, you know? If they're willing and they want to get help, you can always offer suggestions, but you can't force them to do anything, and again, sometimes when you are dealing with a depressed partner, it really is sometimes people are overwhelmed and they don't even know the decisions that they need to make.

So, if they're in a position where they are wanting to accept help, maybe you can just find a list of therapists that your insurance takes or look up BetterHelp.

13:01

Find some free resources that might be available. Sometimes if you do have insurance, oftentimes they might have some free coaching or anything like that available. These are just things you can check out because when someone’s over their capacity, if they are overwhelmed, if they are not in their window of tolerance, they aren't able to take the steps they need to take to get support. So, sometimes you might need to help make the decisions easy, like, “Here are two people that you might want to reach out to if you feel up to it.” Again, always just offering as a suggestion. Never forcing, never making it an ultimatum, but just offering support if they are open to receiving it.

Again, if they're not, that’s okay too because it’s not your job to fix, and this is why I’m gonna go back to this is why you being the one that’s taking care of yourself is so important, and maybe when you're in the car there’s a podcast that you enjoy that you could listen to together. Maybe there’s a book that you could listen to together. Maybe when you're doing things communally you can invite in supportive things. Maybe watching some inspiring stories on Netflix or documentaries that are inspiring, people getting through hard times.

14:04

I actually just listened to an amazing book that I love. It was Leslie Odom Jr.’s book Failing Up, which is a very short four-hour book. It’s a great little read. Those can be other things. Maybe you have an uplifting book that’s on a table or just things that invite in possibility that could help support your partner if they're negative.

So, again, I do want to share that I know this can feel intense and heavy, so maybe just take a breath. Give yourself a little shake. But remember, good energy can be contagious. The better and more rooted you are in yourself and feeling good, the more that can affect those around you, and also, noticing your own reactions. I think this is the next thing is owning your part, right? It can be very easy for us to get into a negative loop that, “Oh, it’s always them. Oh, it’s always them,” and so, here’s what I’m gonna invite you into.

15:00

Notice your part. Where might you be reacting in a way that could be triggering? We all have these repetitive patterns, right? Like I said earlier, we have our own attachment styles. We have our own things that we can do, and maybe there are things that trigger you, that make you go down the rabbit hole. So, here are some ideas around that.

Can you stop engaging, maybe if they're begin negative? Don't respond, right? Don't go down that path. Do something to interrupt that pattern. Maybe just move to a different room or just say, “Well, thank you for that,” and go on about your day. Anything you can do to stop those repeating loops. So, maybe you have a regular argument where you go downstairs and the kitchen’s a disaster and you're busy and they were supposed to put the dishes away and you are just over it, so maybe noticing what is your typical response there and how might you invite something new? What might your projections be around the experience?

I recommend Byron Katie’s The Work for this. She’s got some great questions here that you can just review, right?

16:03

Basically, it’s just asking yourself a series of questions like what happens when I believe -- “What’s the thought that you're having right now ?” “Oh, I believe my husband’s a slob because they never clean the kitchen,” right? Whatever. So, then you can just take a moment and know what happens when I believe this thought, that my husband is a slob, right? What happens when you start believing that thought? Where might you be projecting some of your own experience on the situation? Notice where you might be reactive and how to stop perpetuating those loops. At the end of the day, who is it that really wants to get this clean kitchen? Are there other ways that you can go about it?

Now granted, again, this always comes in handy, too, with parenting because I think that Byron Katie The Work is really funny, and you can just go to www.thework.com
and download the worksheets. But basically, it can help you to just have a different perspective on things because oftentimes we might be the one that cares about the dirty socks on the floor. No one else cares.

17:07

So, at the end of the day, you can pick up the dirty sock, too. But at the end of the day, what’s gonna make you happy? So, that just makes me -- I always laugh at that story when I hear her say that one about the mom who was so irritated with her teenager always leaving the socks on the floor.

Really, The Work is just like a meditation, right? It’s just tuning in and asking yourself these four questions. Number one, is it true? Number two, can you absolutely know that it’s true? Number three, how do you react (what happens when you believe that thought)? Number four, who would you be without that thought? So, there’s a lot to it, but basically, it’s just kind of being noticing of your own rejections around things because we all have them, okay?

So next, here’s something that’s really important: asking for and stating your clear boundaries. These can be challenging, especially if your partner is not willing to uphold boundaries. But you're gonna need to figure out what the consequences for that will be, right?

18:06

So say, for example, it’s like, “Okay on Saturday morning we’re gonna have pancake time, and I really desire for our family to have a good interaction on Saturday morning. I’m wondering what kind of things would help it to feel more fun for you,” right? Get their buy-in around it. So, “Would it be possible on Saturdays that maybe you can make pancakes and make it fun so we can inject a little fun into the family experience,” whatever it is, right? Stating something like that. “Here’s something I desire. Is this something you're willing to do?” Here’s something that I need to have respected, and what are your ideas around that?

So, for example, if I’m working, I need my husband not to walk back and forth across my office. [Laughs] This is something we deal with all the time. He is a very loud talker. He’s Italian, loves to talk loud. His office is right next to mine in our home, and so, there are some stairs that go upstairs in my office and also on the other side of downstairs.

19:02

So, what I have done is I have a curtain that I close, so I’m like, “When this is closed, you use the other stairwell so you don't walk through when I‘m coaching a client or taking a client through a deep process or teaching or whatever.” [Laughs] So, that could be a boundary, right? So, “I would love if, when I have a live call, I’m gonna close this curtain, and when you see this curtain closed, are you available to go up the other stairs?” Usually that’s a simple yes, right? You’ve got to help make that solution easy or be open to other ideas, right? get their buy-in around it.

Oftentimes, we can forget what our own boundaries are when we are caring for others. So, it can be helpful to take a step back and see, “Okay, what do I need when they are being negative? What do I need to support myself in that situation? Is it that I’m gonna go take a short walk? Am I gonna take the kids and go to the grocery store? Am I gonna take a bath? Am I gonna lock myself in the bathroom and take ten deep breaths and do some jumping jacks and get it out of my system?” What is it that you need?

20:01

Also, working on having better communication, right? Oftentimes, this is a challenging thing because we’ve never really been taught how to have good communication. So, you’ve got to talk about it though. You have to talk about it. You can't continue to sweep it under the rug. We often don't want to admit that we’re having problems. We don't want to let anyone know that we’re having problems, much less admit it to ourselves oftentimes, right? So, how do you have these conversations? Well, one of the things that I like to do when it comes to having a challenging conversation is trying to get a little bit of perspective around it by just giving yourself a few minutes, right? This is why this podcast can be really helpful because you can go through these steps and say, “Okay, what am I good at? What is hard for me?” I get it, right, especially when you're dealing with a challenging partner, you can feel nervous about bringing something up without triggering them and without trying to fix, but there is a way to come from a loving place, right?

21:01

And so, what I invite you to do in this situation, too, is just start to -- because, again, we can get in these loops. It can be really easy to fixate on all the things that drive us crazy or that we don't like or that we feel like they're doing wrong or the ways they're screwing up at parenting, all the things, right? We can get down those loops. So, what I would recommend you do is to start to note what you appreciate about your partner, right? Maybe just make a list of all the things you appreciate about them. Maybe memories in the past where you have appreciated them, things they’ve done. Just make a note of that, and everyday write something down that you appreciate. Bonus points if you want to share that with them.

Next is to try not to complain, right? Again, this can be challenging, but all you do when you complain is you remind yourself of all the things that make you upset, and that makes you feel bad. So, maybe you just have a venting notebook or Notes on your phone where if you just feel the need to vent, you can just go vent in there and then delete it. Get it off your chest or just write it down.

22:03

I’m a big fan of driving in the car and just bitching all the things I want to bitch and then letting it get out of my system, right? You can turn up the music. No one’s hearing you. Do it when you drop your kids off or pick them up or whenever you're driving around. Maybe you just need to get out in the car. Get out and do a little loop around the neighborhood. But I love that practice. I actually know a lot of people recommend it, and it’s funny because even when I was a teenager I used to do it. I’d call it “screaming,” and I would get in my car when I was mad, and I would turn up the music as loud as it would go. I’d roll down all the windows and just scream at the top of my lungs. It feels amazing. So, those are some ideas there.

Again, just trying to let go of that complaining. But when you think about the complaints, what I urge you to do is turn it around into a desire, right? So, if you think of something that’s hurtful and what you want to see instead, right? So, for example, I don't want my husband to say rude things to me, okay?

23:03

So, let’s get more specific. I desire our communication to be kind and respectful, right? That is a concrete desire versus a complaint. “I’m really annoyed that my partner always leaves their dirty clothes on the floor.” Switching that into a desire that’s very specific could look like, “I really need my partner to step up and do the laundry once a week,” twice a week, whatever it is. “I really need my partner to step up and put the clothes in the dirty hamper at the end of the day,” right? So, you have a specific request that’s doable.

So, you can give some timeline. This is why it’s really helpful to journal about it or talk with a friend about it or talk with a coach so you can kind of work through your mind. What’s really beneath all the resentment? What’s the need beneath all the upset, right? And so, once you have that figured out a little bit, you’ve connected to some things you appreciate about your partner, you’ve come up with some concrete desires, and then you want to try to find a compassionate place to state that from, to state these things, right? You want to both be in a place where you are available to hangout, available to talk.

24:18

Sometimes a really great way to do this is just by inviting them to take a walk with you. Maybe you walk the dog. Maybe you create a time where you can just spend a few minutes together and just say, “You know, here’s what I appreciate and value about you. Thank you so much for the way you do XYZ. Thank you so much for the way you're such a loving dad. I love the way you read stories to the kids every night,” or “I so appreciate the way that you always scrape my car off for me when it’s snowing. Thank you so much.” Then you can bring into the next thing. “Something that I’ve been observing is that we often have this repeated argument around the laundry,” for example, or “Something that I’ve been observing is that we often have this repeated argument around my work. For example, when I’m having a busy day, I notice that you oftentimes have a comment about the amount of time I’m working. Oftentimes, when you have a statement about that, I can take ownership that I can make myself feel bad about myself, and it sometimes, then, makes me feel upset towards you, and then I often notice that we get in an argument. So, what I do desire is that my contributions to the family are appreciated.” So, things like that.

25:28

“I just desire to feel appreciated by you. So, maybe is there something that you do appreciate about my contributions to the family? I would love to hear that from you,” or if you're arguing about the laundry, you're basically stating things you observe. So, you’re not blaming, you're just stating things you observe and how you take ownership of how that makes you react, right? So, you want to kind of come to it with that.

26:05

So, first of all, you're meeting at a time where you're both neutral. Number two, you're starting with something you appreciate. Number three, you're just bringing an observation, something that’s an observation, not blaming or shaming. Then you are going to invite in a practical solution. So, if it’s the laundry issue, right, maybe it’s, “I really appreciate the way you always cook dinner. I’m really grateful for how you nourish our family with such good food. Something that I observe is that we often have a repeating argument around the laundry on the floor, and what I desire is I would love a way to maybe create, at the end of the day or X amount of times a week, that we could look at some other ways of getting the laundry in the basket. What are your thoughts around that? Do you think at the end of the day you’d be able to just put the laundry in the basket at 5:00 PM every afternoon or three times a week,” or whatever, right? “What’re your thoughts about that?”

So, you give a suggestion, something that’s really tangible, and then find out if they're open to doing that. “What’re your thoughts around that?” See what they're capable of and what they aren't capable of, and again, as I mentioned earlier, knowing that sometimes they might not be capable of something we want them to do. They might not have the capacity. If so, what are they capable of doing and how can that be enough for you, right?

27:31

Even always I think coming back to if you care about your relationship, if you care about your partner, you do want to speak to that, right? “I love you. I care about our relationship. I want to feel connected to you, and I’m afraid if these patterns don't change we won't recover from that, and that, to me, is not an option. So, I’m wondering what your thoughts are on that,” right?

Often, people want to be seen, they want to be heard. When you come from a loving place in your heart, a self-compassionate place, a loving place, taking ownership for whatever part you play no matter how small, we’re humans, but when you can come to it with that intention of connection, finding a good space again together, then so much can happen in growth, so much can happen in coming back together, right?

28:13

Especially if something’s been hard for your partner or they're going through a hard time, which, oftentimes, that’s what it is. There’s underlying stress. Maybe there’s childhood trauma that’s been reactivated. Maybe it’s just like they're overwhelmed, and it can just open up a conversation, some vulnerability to really support one another, right, and just understanding what they're capable of doing, what they're willing to do, and how you can invite in that initiatrix energy.

So, I know this is a lot, but I really hope these tools are supportive because we can all go through periods of time where we might have a negative partner or they may be negative, so I just want to name that, right? Just to kind of recap what we’ve talked about is how you deal with this.

29:02

Number one: have empathy for their situation. Number two: know it’s probably not about you. Number three: do your best to meet them where they are. Number four: resist the urge to fix. Number five: get support for yourself. Number six: focus on the good. Number seven: try and stop complaining. Number eight: choose differently, even in similar circumstances (being creative, that you have choices to make). Number nine: prioritize your happiness (surround yourself with supportive friends and people). Number ten: examine your projections (where may you be reactive?) Number eleven: ask for what you need and state clear boundaries. Number twelve: own your part. Number thirteen: learn how to communicate (how to have the conversation, I talked about that). Finally, if you need support, you can reach out.

Also, you’ve probably heard the exciting news that I have a new membership! It is a monthly pleasure membership, and it is specifically a place where you can receive tools, you can learn how to be with your body, learn some somatic, tangible tools to kind of move through challenges, to connect more deeply to your pleasure, and to invite in connection to yourself and those around you.

30:15

And so, in this membership, I also have some bonus practices, and one of the most recent ones I did (we talked about boundaries last month) is an energetic practice around how you can basically create some energetic hygiene for yourself when you're dealing with a negative partner. And so, the membership right now is only $44/month for a limited time, and if you are interested in getting this practice, you can go to www.amandatesta.com/tpf. You can join the monthly membership. It’s only $44/month, and you can get access to this practice of how to deal with a negative partner, a somatic practice to energetically kind of cleanse your space and to create a strong boundary, and it’s really powerful. The feedback from the clients who have used it has been quite positive and just, really, I find it amazing what we can do when we take ownership because we can create opportunities for ourselves. We can create what we want in our lives, even if those around us might feel resistant at first. But when we take the first step, so often things change, so often things turn around.

31:18

One of my recent clients, she and her partner were just not connecting at all. They were bumping heads. They just could not get on the same page, and after her doing the work herself (he wasn't even involved in the process), three months later, she said that it was like an 180-degree shift in their relationship. He started showing up. They started going dancing again, which is something that she really valued that they had stopped doing. Because what happens is when we change, things around us change, right? There is movement. There is a change in that energy, which, nine times out of ten, affects those around you. Now grated, this is not always the case, but most of the time, it is, and I want to just invite you, like, you can make a lot of changes just by doing the work yourself.

32:05

So, if you want to check out The Pleasure Foundation, I highly urge you to check it out at www.amandatesta.com/tpf, and you can get that practice. I’m sending you so much love. I’m wishing you an amazing day. Thank you again for listening, and if you have someone who you think would benefit from this podcast, please share it! That just helps so much to help the podcast grow and to support others as well. So, wishing you a beautiful week, and we will see you next time!

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Thank you for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast! If you loved this episode, please go ahead and forward it right now to someone who you know would love it, and if you’ve not yet had a chance to leave us a rave review on Apple Podcasts, please make sure you rate and review if you enjoyed the podcast as well as make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week!