In this week’s podcast, I’m bringing back my husband Mark Testa, as we talk about what men desire in relationships, and some of the common challenges I often see working with couples in long term partnerships. 

Tune in to get some insight on the male perspective, AND learn some tools to enhance the intimacy in your relationship.

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts,Stitcher or Spotify.

After all the great feedback about our last episode, I thought it would be fun to bring back my hubby, Mark Testa, as we dive into the male perspective of sexuality and relationships.

Listen into this episode as we discuss some of the challenges and desires that many men face.

Some of the resources we talked about in this episode:

Get the Reconnection Ritual for Couples HERE.

Find the The Mask You Live In Documentary HERE:

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in viaApple Podcasts,Stitcher or Spotify.

In this week’s podcast, I’m talking with my dear friend Tiffany Josephs.


We were both feeling off and not great, and in this candid conversation we found a way to find delight in the chaos of right now.

I am so grateful for Tiffany, and our cherished, magical friendship.  With all that has been going on in the world, I have felt very isolated and lonley at times, and hungered for the days of gathering in big groups, spending time with my friends.

This conversation boosted my spirits and shares some great gems on how to find delight even when the monotony of life feels neverending.  Enjoy as we jam on sex, life, and finding support in the chaos of it all. 

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts,Stitcher or Spotify.

Tiffany is the most magical friend, she's always bringing magic and I swear leaves sparkles in her path.  I delight in our friendship, and the deep conversations we share.

In this episode, I'm inviting you into this tender conversation where we get real on the challenges we're facing right now, and how to find ways to bring more pleasure and surrender into your days, even when it feels impossible. 

Find out more about the 21 Days of Sensual Self Care HERE.

Find the Safety Breathwork and support videos HERE.

You can find more about Tiffany Josephs and follow her magic HERE.

Follow her on Insta here.

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts,Stitcher or Spotify.

Do you ever google things to find out if you're normal?  Or have questions you want to ask your health provider, but feel too embarrassed to bring them up?

If so, you're not alone.   

In this week's podcast, I'm talking with Mia Davis, the founder of the online platform tabú, a modern discovery platform for sex and health.

Her own journey of struggling with pelvic pain, shame, and guilt around sex, and the lack of good information led Mia to create Tabú, a place to make conversations about sex approachable and easily accessible. 

Tabú, is an online platform dedicated to taking the shame out of all things "taboo" and providing education and tools to take control of the things that matter most: Your mind, your body, your pleasure, and your relationships. 

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

Mia Davis is the Founder and CEO of tabú, a modern discovery platform for sex and health. Mia earned her Bachelor of Science degree from Stanford University in 2014.  Her own struggle with pelvic pain, shame and guilt from a conservative upbringing, and the lack of great information out there inspired her to create Tabu.  

Check out tabú HERE.

Follow in Insta here: @talk.tabu

And Twitter @talktabu

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts,Stitcher or Spotify.

In this episode, my dear, brave husband Mark Testa and I share some tips that have helped us thrive in our ten years together.

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

Mark and I celebrated our ten year anniversary last week!  We were reflecting on our time together, and thought it would be fun to share a bit of our story, and what has helped us to keep our relationship thriving during so much chaos. 

It's not been all rainbows and unicorns by any means, but we always find a way to come back together, to focus on what is good and amplify the health of our partnership.  And thankfully we have found ways to keep our chemistry hot and alive!

Thank you for listening!  If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends!

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

(Full Transcript Below)

Hello, and welcome to The Find Your Feminine Fire Podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex love and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex love and relationships and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome. Hello everyone. And welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire Podcast. I'm your host, Amanda Testa. Today, I am going to be talking with the amazing Dr. Mark Testa, who is also my husband, and today is actually our 10 year anniversary. So I thought it would be a fun episode to do a little bit of reflecting on 10 years of marriage and how we've made it this far. So, Mark, thank you for being here. Thank you

Mark Testa (00:51):

For having me, Amanda. It's great to be here. I'm excited to share some of this information and tell you a few things that you don't know about me yet.

Amanda Testa (01:00):

I love that. I always love a bit of mystery because that is definitely exciting. The air of mystery can bring a lot of excitement, especially in a longterm partnership. We have been together for 12 years married for 10, right? Yep. So Mark, before we dive in, maybe you could talk a little bit about who you are and what you do and why you're being brave enough to come on this call because I know not every husband would be this brave, so thank you for doing it.

Mark Testa (01:28):

Yeah. Perfect. Well, thanks for doing it. It was a good recommendation this morning. I'm a chiropractor and acupuncturist for the last 30 years. I've had my hands on thousands and thousands of people and I've just, you know, always been into alternative medicine, natural medicine, integrative medicine, holistic stuff, functional medicine. And really, I think just my nature is to be more naturaland into nature and into, you know, the natural sciences. And so that's sort of my background and I think my courage to be here is I like to educate and share things with people. And I certainly know from touching thousands and thousands and thousands of people, there is no one way and we all need some sort of constant, you know, reminder and support. And so if I can do that, whether it's in healthcare or relationships or other things that interest me, I love to do it.

Amanda Testa (02:24):

I love that. And I have to say it's sometimes really fun to hear your partner talk about themselves in a way that you don't normally every day as you are living with someone all the time. And especially now with the craziness of the world and the pandemic and being stuck together, you might not feel very excited around each other's presence, but sometimes when you can have these different perspectives to see one another end, it can remind you like, Oh yeah, this is why I was attracted to this person in the first place. Right,

Mark Testa (02:53):

Right. That is true. And I think, you know, it's important to like our anniversary to remember that who I fell in love with, because right, sitting here so close to you and looking at you, it's awesome. Cause we don't really do this in the daytime. You're busy on busy, but slowing down to remember who you fell in love with is awesome.

Amanda Testa (03:12):

I love that. Slowing down to remember whp you fell in love with so sweet and it's something that is sometimes hard in the business of life. So that's one of the things I wanted to talk about today. Like what are some things that we, that we do to keep our relationship harmonious and exciting and loving, and then what we do when it's not in that flow because we're humans. And obviously we have our moments. We're very passionate.

Mark Testa (03:36):

We are very passionate. You and me and our daughter and together it's a,

Amanda Testa (03:42):

It's a fire your energy up in here.

Mark Testa (03:45):

Yes.

Amanda Testa (03:46):

So let's talk to that. The first thing is how about trying to make time to remember who you fell in love with, how can you do that when life is so busy and you feel like you have zero alone time, so I'll share a couple of things that I feel are helpful. And then Mark, I'd love to hear your opinion as well, because I think one of the things that we always know is when we make time, even if it's 10 minutes, it is huge because we both are busy. We're both working from home. We both have a lot of responsibilities and we also have our daughter who just turned eight. And so trying to parent, and also with a single child, she wants a lot of our attention. So feeling like we have zero time together , you know, happens a lot. So I think even just finding those little moments when you can get together, even if it's for five minutes, maybe before, like we like often in the morning before our daughter wakes up, we'll work out together. We will maybe have a cup of coffee together, or if we're working together and we can sneak away, we'll go grab a cup of coffee. And another thing is when you feel like you can't get away at all, from being a parent is honestly taking advantage of screen time. Right. Sometimes you got to let them watch a show and have some time together.

Mark Testa (04:54):

Yeah. Right. Exactly. I love our coffee breaks, which we don't get maybe once a week, but we walked down to the local coffee shop and that is great. And like Amanda said, it reminds me of the analogy, little hinges, swing, big doors, just 10 minutes, just can connect us, reconnect us when we're working at home. And you know, we're both busy when you just come over to my side of the office and sit on my lap. I love that. I mean, it's, it's great. And I should do more of that to you, but I like you on my lap then you probably want me on yours. But yeah. You know, I think that, that, and you know, I think too, the other thing is you got, gotta work on yourself before you can, you know, expect to get fulfilled from somebody else. And you know, I'm really saying that to myself again, which I, and I do that a lot with journaling and meditation and journaling a lot lately. So

Amanda Testa (05:47):

I have to say, I'm very grateful that Mark and I are both on a path of growth and trying to be, always learn and do better. And you know, we've actually bonded a lot of recently over things that we want to do together. Like, you know, definitely working more on our daily actions to be anti-racist and to do what we can to help those who are oppressed and to, you know, bring more justice in the world and all the ways. And as well as, you know, you mentioned earlier finding time, even if, you know, to come sit on your lap or whatnot. And I think it's finding ways to flirt and keep that fun alive. And that's one of the things we realized lately is that with all the stress and with everything going on, we haven't had much fun. And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves with our businesses and with our parenting.

Amanda Testa (06:35):

And I think just really taking a step back on occasion and just saying, you know what, we do have so much fun when we allow ourselves to, so we just made that a new intention, like we just reconnected to our intention of, yeah, let's have more fun. And since we have, it makes it much more easy to sneak out for those little breaks or to put this priority of even recording this podcast interview, you know? And so like when I take this five minutes to come and flirt or flash or something fun, you know, just to be playful and to remember the way you were in the beginning, there's a quote from Tony Robbins. And I, you know, you may think what you will with him, but I do appreciate this quote. He talked about, you know, "if you do what you do in the beginning, there won't be an end. "And I think there's some truth to that in some ways, because often the longer you're with someone you lose that kind of putting your best self forward or, you know, putting in more effort, I guess, right.

Mark Testa (07:32):

More effort for sure. Or, you know,

Amanda Testa (07:37):

That sounds

Mark Testa (07:37):

So like, like I got to come up with more, but if you just reprioritize your efforts, I mean, we work in waste so much time on stupid things that we don't really need to do. And I can just say, you know, since January I've been largely off Facebook and I love that and just not wasting time there. So not necessarily coming up with more time, but just reprioritizing it. So you focus on the things that are important and really for me in this pandemic and just, you know, witnessing and watching, I thank your family and your health are the two most, I mean, everybody says it, but if you don't realize that by now, get your journal out, that's yourself. Why not? But I think those are the most important things to put, put attention on. Right.

Amanda Testa (08:21):

Right. So, as Mark mentioned about, you know, with making more time, when you feel like there isn't having that intention, like you said, just putting intention behind what you're doing is huge. And then the second thing we were just talking about was doing your own work and always not expecting everything from your partner. I think it can be really easy to think, well, Oh, if they only did this or it's all because they do that and Oh, if they only did this, you know, we really can do a lot of blaming. And I think when you can stop and take responsibility for your side of the equation, cause there's always two sides. And I know when Mark and I first got together, he would say this quote, if you want more love, give more love, which I don't know who to attribute that to. But I think it's so beautiful because it's true. If you notice that things are really disconnected in your relationship, what are some things you can do to make an effort to reconnect? Maybe even it's just making a list of all the things you appreciate about your partner. Maybe it's remembering some of the things that you used to do together that you love and finding a way to bring essences of that into the present moment.

Mark Testa (09:20):

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And you know, they want to exercise. We, we, we should do it tomorrow night on our date night fears loves and desires because when you ask, what do you love about me? It really makes you you know, especially when you go for two or three minutes uninterrupted and you know, you're beautiful, you're hot, you turn me on, et cetera. Right. Those things come out immediately. But then you start going deeper about what you really love about that person and reflecting on it and realizing that, you know, they have a lot of great attributes and things that you connect with on connect well on that sometimes just get overlooked. Or you said something today where, you know, hopefully you don't go too far beyond where you started and slip down a slippery slope. And

Amanda Testa (10:14):

I think that's one of the things Mark said early on in our relationship about building a strong foundation. I know I'm very lucky. I have awesome partner. He's so aware, but that when you have those cracks in the foundation, you need to work to amend those. And sometimes after you've been in a relationship for a long time, I remember before we ever had our daughter, we never really argued. It's really easy not to argue when you don't have a lot on your plate. And then obviously becoming parents out of a lot more stress and less time together. And so there would be more and speaking of children, I was just interrupted. So we had to pause for a second. So yes, back to that, I remember we got into some arguments that were really unkind and I feel like there's like a threshold that's broken at that point sometimes. And you go past a level of the way you would treat one another and you have to like go back and men that foundation and recommit to kindness and respect and you know, we're all human it's going to happen. You're going to lose your shit at times and say things you don't mean, but the more you really have to work to repair the damage.

Mark Testa (11:13):

I agree. Totally agree. And I said it last night when we were falling asleep, when I say, I'm sorry, I love you. I'm sorry. Cause I was just thinking about some stuff and, and felt bad. And I just wanted you to know that.

Amanda Testa (11:28):

Yeah. I think it's a beautiful process. It's called the h'oponopono and it's a really beautiful forgiveness prayer. And it's, I love you. I'm sorry, please. Forgive me. Thank you. And I think it's been really powerful. We've even at times to just spend a few minutes saying that to one another and so much is comes up and there's often emotion and tears and things that can come up. And there's also very healing because you're offering forgiveness to yourself and your partner for being human right for

Mark Testa (12:03):

It is it's just being human and know. And I think about that too. You know, there, there is no place you get, like there is no better, there is no place that's under the rainbow. And again, I think about all the people I've talked to and touched in 30 years, everybody has a story. Everyone has a story and some worse than others, but Nope, there is no perfect anything other than just accepting, you know, who you are and where you are. And like I tell them man, and our daughter, I wake up every morning really with the intent to be, you know, as good as I can be every day. Yeah.

Amanda Testa (12:46):

And I think that forgiveness piece is such a huge part in relationships, especially longterm relationships. And, you know, we talked about making more time. We talked about being intentional. We talked about doing your own work. And I think the other thing I want to bring up is just, you know, creating practices and rituals to honor the sacred connection that you have. Right. I love the fact that, you know, there's millions and billions of people in the world. And for some reason, you and this person bonded and connected and fell in love. And it's a huge gift. I feel like it's such a huge gift. And often we forget the sacredness of that in the business of life. And so finding times to create those environments where you can be vulnerable and intimate with one another and maybe it ends in sex, maybe it doesn't, but it's just finding time to connect.

Amanda Testa (13:35):

And I think the key that's helped us, obviously me being in the work that I'm in is I've learned a ton of tools and practices, but actually using those things, doing them as a practice. And he mentioned earlier, one of my favorite practices, it's called the fears, desires and loves practice. And I can actually, if you want to get that, you can go to my website and download it. It's www.amandatesta.com/intimacy, And you can get this practice. It's such a powerful one and it's often really hard. Like I'm curious Mark, the first time you ever did it. How was that for you?

Mark Testa (14:11):

Well, it's awkward and it's hard, you know, what do you fear? What, you know, those are hard. It's makes you it's you're vulnerable, but that makes the ignites the connection man, like amazing when you're so vulnerable with your partner and really in their face while you're doing this thing. So at first it was, you know, little uncomfortable, but now it is just the most healing connecting, you know, thing, one of the rituals we do. And I love it.

Amanda Testa (14:40):

And I'm curious, Mark, what we would say to people out there listening who are maybe like, Oh, my husband would never do that. You know, what could you say to them to know what could they say to their partners to get them excited to do something like this or at least to get them on board to be open?

Mark Testa (14:55):

Yeah. I just think about some of my friends and put myself in trying to convince them, I think just, you know, being gentle with it and you know, what talk about what you hope to get from it. Like, you know, if you know, you've been not paying enough attention to each other, that might be, and you want to pay more attention to each other, that might be the catalyst to doing it. Hey, we have this, I learned this cool thing and you know, I think it would help us get back to what we used to do and have more fun in our life and relationship. And, and I probably, you know, talk about the benefit that could come from it, especially, you know, when you were first in love and yeah,

Amanda Testa (15:38):

I know that's a question I get. And I think that really is, is like getting really clear on why it's important to you and what you hope to benefit and how it could benefit the both of you are key things to share. And so, and I'm curious to Mark over the years with all of that, thank you for being so patient and open to all the beautiful practices and tantric rituals. And so much of that is incredibly powerful. Sacred sexuality is a huge part of what I teach. And I think it's so important and you can do it with, or without a partner, but something about it, as I mentioned earlier, it helps you really, really honor that sacred connection, that gift that you have to be with this partner and really making spirituality something you can do together and actually have a whole course around that, because I think so many couples can use this as a tool to, you know, make things more exciting and to keep the passion going in longterm relationships. I mean, I think there's so much depth that can be had when you explore these angles. And I'm curious Mark, from your perspective, what have you gained from it or what maybe is one of being open to some of these practices? How would you say that they have deepened our relationship?

Mark Testa (16:47):

I, again, I think with the vulnerability helps deepen it, but also, you know, just it's it aligns what you're doing together and keeps it moving in the right direction or, you know, in, in a, in a single direction, right. It's not going all over the place. One person going one place, the other person going another. So I think, you know, it's been helpful that way, especially, you know, some of the prac that the relationship intention in and of itself is powerful. I mean, you're working on it together. And so I think so many couples just drift apart. Like I got my job, you got yours, I'll see you in the house on Saturday and Sunday, see at bedtime and drift. And it doesn't mean you're having an affair or anything like that else, but you just grow apart. So I think these things help, you know, are good. I don't want to use the word glue, but good attraction to remain attracted to each other, a good energy to remain attracted.

Amanda Testa (17:51):

And it doesn't mean not only connects you physically, which is a big part of it. You connect energetically and you, you know, remember that you are on the same page because I think we often forget that. And there's a lot of resentment that can breed. And when you are on the same page, I think there is more of a community feel and the relationship in the family. I mean, I feel like, at least for me, what I can see as I see more of a, you know, we all are going towards the same goal. So everyone steps up to the plate, whether that's with household responsibilities or parenting, or, you know, taking turns, making date nights or whatnot,

Mark Testa (18:33):

You say it so much better than I do. That's great. Yeah. It does help with that sort of unity and, and, you know, and then you talk about things like I've learned a lot from Amanda that help us with our relationship. I and our daughter has too. And I've learned from that. And that's I think that helps make you a better partner to get an understanding how your spouse ticks cause it's different than when you started dating. It's different than before you had kids. It's different. Certainly after kids, it's different since March, since we've all been together, 99.9% of the time

Amanda Testa (19:12):

I know, I love, I was you might've heard my interview with Emily Nagoski a few weeks ago, talking about how togetherness can be kind of like pizza, right? And you love your partner, but you love pizza and maybe you've just eaten a whole pizza and you're like, you know what? I am good on pizza. Like I love pizza, but I don't need any more pizza right now. I'm going to go take a nap. So like finding ways to have time for yourself. And I think that was something that even I think was in our wedding vows, but that, that quote from Khalil Gibran might be mispronouncing his name. I can't think of exactly what I'm talking about. It's about may there be space in your together. Khalil Gibran.Thank you. Maybe there'll be space in your togetherness. And I think that sometimes what we forget is like doing things that light you up, making sure that you make time for that and giving space for your partner to do that so that when you come back together, you're each whole and have more to bring versus expecting someone to meet all those needs for you. That's unrealistic and it's unfair. Really.

Mark Testa (20:08):

It is unfair. And since, you know, since you've been taking these morning hikes, right, that's where you get rejuvenate and revived and I can see it and tell it. And it, you know, you come into our relationship a different person and it is helpful to just like, yeah, put your own seatbelt on first or however the saying goes,

Amanda Testa (20:25):

Because I can totally tell when I'm not doing those things and not doing my practice and we'll lose an egg, we'll lose it. Right. I just feel like my nervous system is fried at zero patients. I don't want to be touched. And then if I take that time to even do a practice or take a hike or whatever it is, even if it's five minutes of breathing in the bathroom, I notice a difference. And I think too, like if you are worried, you know, that your would be supportive as you dive on these journeys. I think one of the things that that's a perfect thing to share is that how much better you are, how much everyone benefits when you take care of yourself? Cause I remember when I first went on this journey, I was so mortified. I remember my first, the first time I signed up for that Jade Egg course, it was all about reclaiming your sex drive. And I had no clue what it was and I was embarrassed. I didn't want anyone to know. So I think I did eventually tell Mark, I'm like, don't come in the bedroom and doing this practice. And then he would see how different I was after. Like, can you tell it to, to just the difference in it? Like maybe if you notice right after I'm fresh from a practice, how I am versus otherwise sometimes.

Mark Testa (21:23):

Right, right afterwards, you're very energetic, very bubbly, very grounded, very central to me, very beautiful. Just much more relaxed I can, you know patient just really re just recharge. It's just, it's very night and day obvious when you do those practices. And then when we, when you come out of it afterwards,

Amanda Testa (21:46):

And I think the same is just for giving your partner that space. Because if you do, once you, once they see how different they are after a break, then you're going to support that. Right. I am supportive of Mark, taking time to do what he needs to do. And he's supportive of me taking time to do what I need to do, because we both know it's better for everyone that way. So I think that could be a great way to wrap it up is just how really supporting one another supporting yourselves. Obviously you've got to have to compromise at times, but knowing that it's for the good of all right,

Mark Testa (22:16):

It is and what relationship, what thing doesn't exist without compromise. It's just, that's what yin yang is. They coexist and they need each other and without one, the other doesn't happen and it's just all fluid. It's I mean, think it's any other way is it's just not anywhere.

Amanda Testa (22:39):

I'm so very grateful to be married to you, Mark. Thank you.

Mark Testa (22:42):

Grateful that to be married to you and that we're still together, we still love each other and we do all this fun stuff together. Thank you.

Amanda Testa (22:52):

We do. And I think that's what makes us remember that we love each other because it's so easy to forget when you are doing all the boring chopping wood and hauling water day to day activities, dealing with the meltdowns bedtime, that takes four hours away. Right? So, well, I just want to thank you all so much for listening and hopefully you have gleaned something to support you in your relationship. I'll also just invite you to check out that practice and see how, you know, how it works for your relationship. I'd love to hear. And I'm curious Mark too, if you have any other last words or anything else you'd like to share on reflecting on 10 years of marriage together.

Mark Testa (23:36):

Yeah. Just keep growing together, you know, invite your spouse, just keep inviting them to participate with you and work on it together. Cause you know, the environment needs to be ripe and then you got to fertilize it, the seeds already been planted and you've just got to, you know, just keep inviting your partner. And I know I don't always want to, but you keep inviting me and we do it. And I'm always, I'm like, what? Why didn't I do that earlier? I'm always kicking myself, but just keep yeah. Just keep, keep working on it. Yeah.

Amanda Testa (24:08):

It's like anything, you know, even if you think about exercise or whatever it is you're doing at first, you're like, I don't want to go. But afterwards you feel amazing. And like anything that you want to nurture and that you want to flourish and grow, you have to take care of it. You have to spend time and energy and effort there. And it can be a fun, rewarding experience. It doesn't have to feel hard and it doesn't always have to involve like sitting in a therapist, all this hashing things out, you don't have to go there. There's so many other ways you can mean that course that's one way and that can be supportive, but there's many ways to go about connecting and reconnecting. So thank you.

Mark Testa (24:46):

Well, thanks for having me on your show. I've always wondered what it was like to be on your show. So thanks for doing it. And this is an amazing space you have,

Amanda Testa (25:00):

And thank you so much all for listening and see you next week. Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa. And if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate And we can have a heart to heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook @Find Your Feminine Fire Group. And if you've enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends, go to iTunes and give me a five star rating and a raving review. So I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

If you’re curious to learn more about energetic hygiene, how it can support you to have more vitality and move through challenging times in life,  then listen in to this week’s podcast episode.  

This episode will show you a simple technique that is proven to turn on 72 genes for healing and lower cortisol levels by 24%!  

I’m your host Amanda Testa, and I’m thrilled to introduce you to Transformation Coach and EFT Expert, Amy Stark.

In this episode you’ll discover that creating the life and health you want is closer than you might think.

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

Amy Stark is an author, speaker, teacher and podcaster about personal transformation. For over a decade, Amy has been teaching others how to master their life and energy with the most cutting-edge tools and techniques. Amy has a degree in Psychology, a Masters in Education, is an L.M.T, and a biohacker at heart. 

She is a trained Reiki Master, Reconnective Healer, E.F.T Practitioner, and is known around the world for helping people to create happier and healthier lives full of joy and purpose.  

Amy's also has a podcast called, The Ophelia Podcast.  You can find more about Amy and connect with her HERE.

Thank you for listening!  If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends!

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

(Full transcript below)

Amanda Testa (00:02):

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire Podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a Sex Love and Relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome. Hello everyone. And welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. And today I am so excited to be talking with Amy Stark of Stark Transformation, and we are going to dive into all things, energy, and really what that means and why it's so important for us to take care of our energetic health and how that really relates to all aspects of our holistic health. So we have lots of good avenues we're going to go down today. Welcome Amy. Thank you so much for being here today.

Amy Stark (00:47):

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk with you.

Amanda Testa (00:50):

Yeah. And I'd love if we could start, if you could share a little bit more about you and you know, what kind of led you to this energy work. I love how you used to be a science teacher and really, totally not necessarily as open to energy. And what kind of led you to change your path in the way that you have.

Amy Stark (01:08):

Yeah. It is a huge transformation. So I, and that's why my story, you can gIve the cliff notes. Yeah, no, well, you know what the thing is, is like once you hit a wall, which is what I did was, so I was a science teacher. I was working in a, in one of the most dangerous schools in the whole country probably. And I needed some tools and I didn't have them. Like, I didn't have tools to calm down. Like I was 22 years old and, you know, thought this is the way life is, you know, it's just really, really, really, really hard, really rough. Like you work really hard and you get no money for it. That was basically what I believed. And, you know, one time, one day I just was sitting there and my friend was like, why don't you try meditation? And I was like, all right, I'll try that.

Amy Stark (01:48):

And I actually was really scared to try it. I really didn't want to try it because my life was so go, go, go. And I was in New York city. And the last thing I wanted to do was stop because it's like, I guess I knew that if I stopped, I might hear a lot of, you know, what I was thinking and feeling. And you know, that how unhappy I really was. And I thought that was the path I was supposed to be on. And I didn't think I had much of a choice about that. So I started meditating and I loved it and I calmed down and then I started hearing like how I was talking to myself. And I was really like, appalled, at what I was saying to myself, what I believed, what I thought, like the limitations I placed on myself, I was like, this is all ridiculous.

Amy Stark (02:25):

So, you know, little by little, I whittled away at those things. And as I did, my gifts opened up to seeing energy, which I was definitely not looking for. Or like, you know, I thought I was crazy. I was like, this is really nuts. Like I wasn't expecting to be able to know things that, you know, most people don't know and, you know, see energy and predict things. And it was just crazy. And I'm like, I'm not a doctor. Like how would you know, how is it helpful to know that someone's going to have a heart attack or something like that? Like, there's not much I can do so over time I realized, you know, maybe I can do some energy work. And, and my friend suggested that I take a class. Cause I was like, I'm going to tell you something. I've always felt this.

Amy Stark (03:03):

I felt like, I feel like I can heal with my hands. And I felt crazy for saying that, but she received me so well, it's actually my partner now, she received me so well that she was just like, no, there's people that do that. And I was like, what? I had no idea for, you know? And I was chronically ill as a kid. You know, I just thought that that would have come up, you know, that somebody would have been able to help me if they could heal with their hands. Right. But nobody did. And anyway, so that's how it evolved. And over time, when you see these like miraculous healings happening in just one session, my, my logical brain was like, I need to figure out why this is happening. Or how is this happening? There has to be some science behind this because I know I'm not crazy. And if I am crazy, then I have to take another step, which is to go to a mental Institute because this shit is nuts.

Amanda Testa (03:52):

And you know, I think that's so true. And once you've worked with energy and you understand it, you can tell how palpable and real it is. Yeah. For anyone out there who's listening and is skeptical. I'd love. If you would share a little bit of the science around it, if you don't mind. Sure.

Amy Stark (04:06):

So of course I studied the science to help make myself not feel crazy. And I found a Bruce Lipton's book. And so he wrote The Biology of Belief and that's when he started talking about how the cells, you know, have energy and they communicate through energy. And then obviously his, his book is called the Biology Of Belief. So then I started thinking, Oh my gosh, my beliefs are, you know, energetic. And then, you know, I had some experiences working with people. And then I started seeing how the thoughts really were in the body. And then I picked up Carolyn Myss and learned about how she could read energy, be a medical medium and, or medical intuitive. And, you know, I started putting all the pieces together, but I tell you what, it was not a straight linear line. I mean, I was like bouncing all over the place, you know, learning this, that, and the other thing, figuring out about the quantum field, learning about, you know, Chinese medicine and the points.

Amy Stark (04:54):

Like I actually walked around for a really long time seeing the acupuncture points. And I was like, I don't know what they are until my friend was like, is this what you see? And it was an acupuncture book. And I was like, that's them, you know? And it was, it was just a very much like I had to stay open minded and curious and not think I was crazy. And, you know, honestly the only thing that really kept me from not thinking I was crazy was really just seeing the healings happening. It gave me the motivation to keep going.

Amanda Testa (05:21):

Yeah. And I think like you mentioned having a chronic illness and anybody that has suffered from that, or has things they've been dealing with for a long time in their life, they become more open to find solutions right out of the norm. And that can be miraculous. Like you say, because maybe something that's been playing in, in their whole lives, there is a deeper understanding that they have never looked at before and things click.

Amy Stark (05:43):

Right. Well, and that's what I kind of saw was just that these emotions were being stuck in the body and creating these patterns. And so like 10 years into my journey after learning Reiki and becoming a Reiki master and then reconnective healing and becoming a master of that and then downloading lots of information and talking to dead people. Like, I mean, it was like everything was coming in. I don't even know why everything opened up that way, but it was a lot. And who's going to say, Oh yeah. So then I saw these, these patterns and I was like, this is crazy. What causes this pattern? And it really was a stuck emotional energy. And then that's when I found EFT and I was like, this might feel the hole that I need, you know, to help people release this pattern because I was noticing I could do energy work with people and they'd be pretty good for months at a time, maybe even a year.

Amy Stark (06:29):

But I had the suspicion that it would come back, you know, the thing that we were working on and it would, and so that's when I was like, I got to figure out how to get these layers out, this emotion out, this trauma out, because it is it's everywhere in the body. And the more that I, I mean, I, I have to tell you, I dismissed EFT because it looks ridiculous. But when I heard the science about why it works, I gave it a shot for myself. I did a couple of sessions on myself and I was like, this is pretty amazing. So then I had a client who came in, who was very open minded and I said, can we work on, you know, this identity around your disease, you know, using EFT. And that opened up everything for her. Like, it was like so much relief. She was, she was like, had so much more hope, you know, she was so identifying with her disease and she didn't want it anymore. So it was pretty, pretty awesome the way that unfolded.

Amanda Testa (07:20):

Yeah. And I think, you know what you said there too is around EFT. What's so great about it is we do have things that are stored in art, in our bodies. You know, it's been proven, like trauma does live in our cells. We have things passed down through our DNA. So there's so much at play and there's numerous ways to go about getting that out. But I think what's beautiful about EFT is that it is doable. I mean, it's quick. It can be quick. It can be very doable. And for people out there who maybe are like, well, it seems so obscure. It doesn't seem, there's like, there's no tangibility to it. I feel like that's one of the things that I love about tapping is that it's very tangible. You can easily learn it. And so I am excited for you to talk more about it. Cause I've actually never had anyone on the show talking about this. So I'm looking forward to going into more detail and just sharing with the listeners, like why it's so powerful and like how you do it. So,

Amy Stark (08:10):

Okay, great. I love it. I think it's like one of the best things that we can do for ourselves. And that's why I teach children as well as adults, because it's something you can take anywhere and you don't need somebody else to help you through. And once you learn it, once you pretty much can use it for almost anything. So that's what I love about it. I mean, there is, there's a little bit of a learning curve in terms of like finding the points or remembering the points, remembering what to say. But after that, it really is just a system which I love. Cause I was from a science background and there's measurable ways to see how you've changed and shifted. I mean, I see energy and I see the energy moving and I can see the trauma that's coming out, but you don't need to see all that, but you can feel it, meaning your body starts to reset, use to your shoulders, relax.

Amy Stark (08:51):

Like you're, you know, breathing changes like people that happens all the time, people are like, I can finally breathe, you know? And it's just such a huge transformation in such a little amount of time, which is so hard to comprehend. But when you really, you know, what I love about energy is that people are like energy doesn't exist. And I'll give you an example of how it really is there and you know it, so like if you see a something that you're afraid of like a snake, right? Like I used to be afraid of snakes. How fast do you see that snake and your whole body reacts, right? Like it's seconds. It's not half a second. Right. I could be, I would have been three miles from that snake in 10 seconds, you know, because of the whole body experience. And that is energy.

Amy Stark (09:33):

That is the signal to signal the signal, the signal, you know, from cell to cell, to cell, to cell telling me that I'm in danger and get, get out of there. You know, my breathing changed my eyes, my changed, you know, I started sweating, you know, I'm running like as fast as I possibly can. So that is energy in action, you know? And, and that's the thing is like, if you really want to transform quickly really addressing the energies. And one of the ways that I find works the fastest. So that's why I really do work with people with energy. And I'm all about biohacking. And I feel like this is a biohack, you know, is a cheap biohack too, which is really great. So, yeah. And what happens like for instance, with the snake, like I said, I used to be afraid of snakes, right?

Amy Stark (10:16):

My brain, you know, doesn't need to be in that circumstance in order to get rid of the fear. So I can actually just think of one and my body will pretty much do a very similar, my brain and body will do a very similar action. Maybe I won't run, but I will start to change my physiology. And that's why I love EFT because the brain doesn't know the difference between it happening now, like in front of you or actually just imagining it. So we use that understanding to change our reality. And we can like, for instance, if we are afraid of public speaking, you know, we can imagine being in front of those people and then start doing tapping and change our relationship to that experience. So we can rewrite the story of our lives of like what we're afraid of or what we won't do or what we want to become, because we have so many limiting beliefs that we develop from the ages of zero to seven when we're just trying to figure out the world.

Amy Stark (11:10):

And we're in a different brain state, it's like more like a meditative state and we make a lot of misconnections and we have a lot of observations about the world about it being unsafe, because we're just like, you know, not understanding what's going on. Like my son, the other day, he was like, I fall the most of anybody in, the cul de sac. And I was like, I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I'm like, you may have some injuries that are pretty bad, but like there's other kids that have problems, you know, but that's the thing that he's programming in his head and I'm there to catch him and be like, you're not a victim, you know, you're learning, you know, which ways to run, like, you know, a couple months ago he ran and he wasn't looking where he was running. And I said, that's a lesson we learned, right.

Amy Stark (11:47):

We look where we're running. So when you're a kid, you're, you're really struggling. He's only six. So that's why I say that you're really struggling to understand the world and how to work within it and you know, what you want to accomplish. And unfortunately we wind up running the rest of our lives off of some of that programming and it can be really frustrating. So I tell people like, if there's a, you know, a theme in your life and you're like, what the hell? Like, why won't this go away? Like, why is this popping up all the time? It's because, you know, we, you know, experienced something in childhood and haven't let it go. And it just is like this underlying theme and EFT can address that, which is really cool. And you don't need to know exactly why you don't need to know that you were six and running without facing forward. Right. But your, your energy in your body remembers that story and we'll release it and you'll feel a heck of a lot better.

Amanda Testa (12:38):

I think that's one of the beautiful things about working somatically working with the body is that you don't have to go back necessarily to relive things. You just create these opportunities for the shocks to release from your system. You create the opportunities for things to release.

Amy Stark (12:51):

Right. Well, and that's what I noticed. So I actually have a psychology degree and I didn't want to go into therapy because I felt like it wasn't a complete process. And what I love about EFT is you're really talking about how you feel about the situation, but you're also removing the trauma that might be holding those feelings there. So that was the camp that I finally found the complete process 20 years later, or something like that 15 years later. So it's really important to address both pieces because we can talk all we want and try to like really use positive thinking and things like that. But if we have underlying beliefs that we're not good enough, or we're a perfectionist or something like that, it's can really hold us back from experiencing the life that we want.

Amanda Testa (13:30):

Yeah. And I think perfectionism comes in a lot. I mean, so many of the women that I work with are, you know, they're usually have families and they're kind of longterm partnership often and they have businesses or careers that they're, you know, really successful in. And they have all these things that they're constantly trying to manage and be the best at. And then some, sometimes like really deeply inside, they feel like they're failing in all aspects because there's just not enough time in the day, or, you know, just putting so much pressure on themselves to like make it all perfect, which is really unrealistic.

Amy Stark (14:01):

Totally. I used to be a perfectionist. And so I really can speak from experience. I truly believe based on my own experience and working with lots of women who are also perfectionists, that women are energetically sensitive. And the fact that people are, you know, we grow up with these people in our energetic space, you know, because we're so sensitive to other people and we can, we can feel that, you know, they want something from us. And so we're like, it's easier for me to just to do that thing. And then they'll get out of my space and that becomes a habit and very highly rewarding, right. Becoming become a good child or, you know, we're not a problem for our parents or we really excel in things because we can sense what the person wants from us. But we wind up being 30, 40 years old and looking back and being like, what the hell?

Amy Stark (14:47):

I never experienced? Like things that I wanted to really experience I was doing it for mom was doing for dad. You know, I was doing it for whoever and you know, it really can be frustrating. So like, what's interesting is I didn't realize that I could just pull people's energy out of my space, turn that fight or flight. Cause it's really irritating to have people in your space and like having an agenda. So you pull them out of your space and then you can decide, okay. Yeah, I will do that. That is in alignment with me or no, that's not in alignment with me. I remember your story about how you said after you had a baby, you know, you are doing all the things and you know, you thought that it was what you were supposed to be doing. Right. But it was really draining. It wasn't, you know, fulfilling you in the ways that you thought it would. And so like, that's where we get a chance to step back clear, everybody's energy at our space and be like, what do you want? You know, what, what do I desire? What, where do I want to be? How do I want to experience life? So anyway, that's a process that you can do where you clear your energetic self. This is separate from EFT, but it's important that we know that we have that ability to do that.

Amanda Testa (15:48):

Can you also have on your website, a great tool around that, right? Yes.

Amy Stark (15:52):

So yeah, when you sign up on the email list, it's the first thing that sent to you is how to clear your energy. It's really important

Amanda Testa (15:58):

Yeah, because I energetic hygiene now, like you said before, when you're taking on all these other people's energy, it's hard to just discern what you really want. And I think that, especially when you are a mom or have a lot of people in your house, that's so common because you don't have a minute, there's something on your body, often hours of the day.

Amy Stark (16:17):

Yes, totally. And then, you know, if you're a working mom, you have double it right in your space or maybe even triple. So it's really important to be able to clear that energy out. But then once we get everybody out of our space, we start to be like, okay, I know who I am, but then it's like that silence that you get with like meditation or awareness that you're like, okay, so now everybody's out of my space. What do I want, why did I do all these things? Why was I so set on having to be perfect? And now how do I undo that? Right? How do I, I know how to get people out of my space now. So I don't have to feel like, you know, I have to do it, but like, how do I develop the path that I want? And that's when EFT really comes in and helps us to rewrite the trauma of disappointment, because we feel that disappointment so deeply when we're younger, right. When we don't do the thing and that trauma stays there. So we're going to, despite having people in our, or out of our space, we might still fall into the trap of, I don't want to make that person feel bad or something like that. You know? So we rewrite that programming and others.

Amanda Testa (17:17):

One of the other things I think is interesting. And maybe we could even talk more to this when you get into the EFT, but around how, you know, I see a lot of women that struggle with body image, especially after having kids. And, you know, that really comes into play with regards to intimacy because they don't feel comfortable. Of course, naked. They don't feel comfortable in their skin. They don't feel comfortable in their body. And can you speak to how EFT helps them?

Amy Stark (17:40):

Right. I remember we were talking about the anxiety of like, you know, having not the perfect body or that you have so many things on your plate, like, you know, laundry, whatever, you know, tapping on. Why do I believe that? I know a lot of my body image stuff came from my mom. And so I had to sort through that stuff, you know, and I did a lot of tapping and a lot of releasing and being like, I don't really feel that way about my body, but like something in me is programmed that way. Right. Cause you, you come from your grandmother really. I mean, you're an egg inside your grandmother and then your mother, you know, you're an egg inside your mother, whatever. You're basically getting at least that much information from your lineage based on the female side. And there could be a lot of body image stuff in there, and it's not your fault.

Amy Stark (18:27):

And obviously with society, the way that it's, you know, they're massively programming us around what we should look like, what we should be wearing, that kind of stuff. And if it's not something that you subscribe to, you can use the ET to change that thinking and really love yourself more. And you know, that's what I noticed is like the more that we follow the path that we want to be following, the more that we know that we have purpose and we enjoy what we're doing, the more we love ourselves. And in fact, that's what we say in EFT is I love and accept myself no matter what, which is beautiful.

Amanda Testa (18:58):

Yeah. And I think that loving acceptance bring that to whatever is present is so important. And it's a challenge. Like it's a practice because it's not always easy. Well, it's not easy to sit with the deep, painful searing things that we have to hold ourselves through often. But that also is part of the work. And that's why I think, you know, when you're having those really deep emotions that are challenging, you know, allowing yourself to feel them and also having tools to work through them like anxiety, like, cause that's another big one that comes up with regards to body image or intimacy is that there is a lot of anxiety often.

Amy Stark (19:33):

Well, and there's a lot of trauma that people have experienced, unfortunately, and this is great for getting rid of that. Or at least basically what it is. A lot of people think, are you eracing my memory or am I going to be erasing my memory? No, but the charge is taken out of the body about that particular situation. So it's not continuing to haunt you, right. It's not coming into the present moment and sneaking in, in times that you're not expecting you to, or wanting it to be there. So, you know, it can help to release that trauma. It can help to, it's helped severely with anxiety and depression and PTSD and you know, weight loss actually too. And you know, so many limiting beliefs that we have that I just absolutely love it. I know. I keep saying that it's the perfect tool.

Amanda Testa (20:16):

Well, I'm wondering if you, if it's something you could walk us through.

Amy Stark (20:19):

Sure. But before I do that, I do want to say what the science is behind, what happens. Yeah. So essentially when you have an experience, like for instance, seeing the snake and you want to like reprogram that you normally, your whole body is heightened and then you start pairing it with this EFT. So you're going to be tapping on the body. You're going to be bringing yourself into the present moment. So a lot of times, like when we experienced trauma like that, we check out, right. It's almost like we don't even know that we're not running well. You know, we're all of a sudden, we're like, wow, I'm like three blocks away and I didn't realize it. So we check out. So this helps us to get back into our bodies. That's where we can process the energy kind of wakes us up. It also is very common because you're touching the body, right?

Amy Stark (21:00):

So you're, anytime we touch the body it's soothing, this is also something you want to do. That's rhythmic. So you're going to tap on the body in a nice, rhythmic way. If at all, there's any pain just back off, you know, like you don't have to hit so hard on or tap so hard on the body. And then what happens is, is the brain says, normally we're upset. You know, when this is happening and now we're feeling something calming, this is a faulty program. So we're going to take it down. It's, it's actually dangerous to our survival. So your neural network that was holding all this trauma that was related to this situation gets taken down and a new orientation to the world begins to emerge. So the neural network now begins to say, I'm safe when this happens and that's the beauty of it.

Amy Stark (21:42):

And so you wind up shifting your what's called your reticular activating system to see the world differently and bring in, you know, the awareness that like I've seen a thousand snakes, you know, before I haven't been bitten, you know, I'm okay to go for a run or whatever. And you start to stay on that one time where, or sorry, on the many times that you are safe and not focus on the one time where maybe came a little closer, maybe you did get unfortunately bit or something like that. But you know, it really, it really shifts your thinking and you no longer have that visceral reaction. So that's really the neuroscience of what's happening within the brain, in the body. What I see energetically is also layers are releasing from the body and the trauma. So like they say that the issues are in the tissues and that literally is what's happening is the issues are leaving from the tissues and the tissues get to relax or they get to heal or whatever.

Amy Stark (22:34):

And that's, that's the important thing is that the more that we work on, you know, releasing these things that cause trauma that are triggering us, like the anxiety or whatever, we may be experiencing, our fight or flight gets turned off. That's when we get to rest and digest and heal and expand our energy field become have a better immune system become more in tune with our higher self. You know, there's so much that happens when we do this practice. So, all right. So I'll talk you through it. Are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. So there's one point that's on the hand and it's right below the pinky and it's on the fatty part. It's like, we call it the karate chop point, but yeah, so that's, that's actually the heart Meridian line. And so anything that has to do with grief or, you know, love situations that you were wanting to release.

Amy Stark (23:21):

I think a lot of autoimmune disease problems are related to the heart chakra of being ignored or the heart energy being ignored. And I love that science is now saying that the heart field is the conductor of the orchestra that is your body. So like when your heart or your feelings are not being felt, you know, and you're not in, you're suppressing them and you're not living your purpose or happy that really affects the whole body. So that's the heart Meridian line. So you're going to tap on that and you're going to say, which one do you want to work on? Do you have something that you want to work on? I don't know. There's many things. Well, it's funny if you talk about the snakes, because we have like this black widow infestation in our backyard. Oh no, I know it's not a big deal, but they freak me out and Oh, I would be so freaked out every time I go out and like sweep the back patio, I'm like terrible.

Amy Stark (24:09):

And you live close to me. So now I'm scared, very small problem in the big scheme of things. But I think, you know, it's something that we could, it's just right. He came to me because I was sweeping this morning and I realized I'm afraid of spiders. Okay. So what's interesting is usually our back patio is where we relax, you know? And so you're losing out on that piece of your, part of your life, right? You're losing out on that opportunity to just let go and relax and be with nature and not feel scared. And I work with a lot of people who have, or I have worked with a lot of people who have Lyme disease, which comes from, you know, ticks and that keeps them from going outside, you know? And that keeps them afraid of like connecting with the earth, which is not a good thing. Right. So let's do it. Cause I do try to live in harmony with nature when I'm out there, I'm like, all right, when I come back, just be gone, this is my place. Yeah. So, so let's take a deep breath in and out. Cause I like to start there. And I think that a deep breath really helps to connect us to safety and awareness. So let's take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (25:16):

So we're going to start at the hand and on a scale of zero to 10. Yeah. Zero to 10. How much is it bothering you? 10 being, not 10 being a lot and zero being, not at all. Hmm. Probably like a five or six. Okay. So it's not too bad. That's good. Okay. So what might come up is that you might go up in the scale and then come back down. So we might really find out that it's part of another program that you're running around. Maybe things being unpredictable or jumping out at you or something like that. Right. Or, you know, that might, I'm not safe when I'm outside. Who knows. Let's see. So take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (25:56):

So we're going to tap on the hand at the karate chop point. We're going to say, even though I'm at a six around this, even though I'm at a six around this, I deeply love and accept myself. I deeply love and accept myself. Good. So if you're not comfortable, if you're listening and you don't like saying, I deeply love and accept myself, you can change that to whatever you feel comfortable. Like I'm willing to love myself. I can love myself or accept myself. If you're working with a kid, you could say I'm still a good kid, that kind of stuff. So take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (26:32):

Okay, good. So then we're going to go to the top of the head and we're going to say, Oh, sorry. The top of the head would be like right in the center. Sometimes it's really sore. Like you get headaches and things like that. There's just like one point that just seems to get sore for me. And that's where a lot of emotion might get caught up. You know, like when it's trying to leave the body, that's what I find is just it's up there. So you just tap. If it hurts, just go lighter. And you're going to say, even though, even though I'm afraid of spiders, I'm afraid of spiders. I deeply love and accept myself. I deeply love and accept myself. Good. Take a deep breath in. And I already feel like you're dropping down to a five. So let's we could keep going. W how do you feel? Like, are you still at a six? It feels, yeah. It feels a little better actually. Okay. Sometimes we just need to talk about it because we're just holding it in because we feel silly, but like, we just need that opportunity to just talk about it. Okay. So take another deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (27:31):

This is not a situation where you're going to like go out there and like find them and hug them. Right. You're just like, want to exist with them. Right. So let's take a deep breath in and out. So now we're going to go to the inner eyebrow and we're going to tap on the inner eyebrow. This is usually around anger and frustration. Okay. So I feel some anger coming up. Do you, can you tell us you're pretty energetically aware. Do you feel any tightness when you're tapping there? It does feel a little, like my feels like a tightness in my nose too. Yeah. And your jaw. Yeah. You're wiggling your nose. Yeah. Your jaw is like, ah, do you grind your teeth at all? Do I have TMJ? Yep. There we go. So I can feel that. So as an energy healer, someone who is sensitive to energy, I can feel where this is stock. So let's take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (28:22):

So we're going to say, even though I'm angry that Whoa. So sometimes I, I I have to just do the thing to let it go. So even though I have this anger around these spiders being in my backyard, even though I have this anger about these spiders being in my backyard, I deeply love and accept myself. I deeply love and accept myself. Good. Take a huge deep breath in and out. Okay. Let's go to the outside of the eye. So it's right at the corner of the eye we're going to, this is also around frustration and anger. So what's this thing about sweeping? What are you doing? Do you, are I see frustration or anger around the sweeping? Anything in particular? Hm. I dunno. I just think that, you know, that's where I mostly worry because that's where my daughter plays all the time and her okay.

Amy Stark (29:21):

I just know, like for smaller kids, they're more susceptible to get sick if they get bitten by a black widow. And so that's what I think, I worry about that. It's like the protective mama bear, right. They're like, perfect. Okay. So what we want to do is we want to acknowledge all that. And just say, even though I'm frustrated that I'm, I have to be worried about my daughter playing on the back porch, even though I'm frustrated and worried about my daughter playing on the back porch and possibly getting bitten and possibly getting bitten. Ooh, that was, that was your fight or flight energy in the back of the neck. Did you feel that take a deep breath in and out, And then we're going to go to the under the eye. So this is right at the center of the eye. There's actually a divot there that you can kind of just use as a guide, but that's basically where you want to tap. And this is about control. So any energy around control that might be stuck in the body, it helps to release it. So take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (30:26):

Good. Even though I have this fear of the spiders, even though I have this fear of the spiders, I deeply love and accept myself. I deeply love and accept myself. Even though I have this fear of the spiders, even though I have this fear of the spiders, I still love and accept myself. I still love and accept myself, even though. So now you're like, I'm less worried about them with me. I'm more worried about them with her. That's more of your energy. So let's, let's talk about that. Your nose is really going, isn't it. Did you notice how I kept rubbing my nose in the beginning of the session when we were talking and I'm like, what is this all about in my head? I was thinking, all right, take a deep breath in and out. Even though I'm really worried about them hurting her, even though I'm really worried about them hurting her and not being able to protect her and not being able to protect her. Good. I deeply love and accept myself. I deeply love and accept myself. Can I take a deep breath in and out? We're going to go under the nose. So this is where the fur Nellum is. Is that what it's called? I think so. For none of them, I don't know. It's the two lines underneath the nose, so we're going to tap there. And we're gonna say, even though I have this fear that she's going to get hurt, even though I have this fear that, Ooh, you really are a big mama bear there. I can feel that. Could you feel that coming from your heart space and on your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out?

Amy Stark (31:56):

Even though I'm scared. She's going to get hurt, even though I'm scared, she's going to get hurt and that I can't block her from that. And that I can't block her from that. I can't change that. I can't change that. Even though there may be times that I can't stop her getting hurt, even though there may be times that I can't stop her getting hurt. Do you feel like you're going to cry? Yeah. Yeah. So take a deep breath in and out, and that will happen. Right?

Amy Stark (32:29):

Good breathe. I could feel in your throat getting caught up and almost like you couldn't swallow or like swollen, take a deep breath in and out again, we can stop tapping under the nose. Good. We're going to go under the lip. So right on the chin and on my website, you can go to starktraansformation.com/EFT for a diagram of this so that you don't have to like really pay attention to exactly where I'm at. But if you need that, you can get that. So take a deep breath in and out. What does this part relate to? So this is about speaking your truth. So like they're words that have gotten caught up, right. That you haven't said, and it's a huge release. Whoa. Sometimes we do want to, so I just made my mouth really wide. Yeah. It's just good to kind of like release the energy because there, it really is when we want to say something and we clamp down on our mouth, like we feel that energy take another deep breath in and out. Good. Let's still stay there even though, even though Whoa. Okay. So sometimes you're going to start to yawn and that's just unconscious energy that was there that was kind of perpetuating this program. So what I'm seeing is a, a father figure that's causing this like protection feeling. Okay. So take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (33:51):

So do you want to talk about that at all? Or no, the father figure energy. Yeah. So I'm seeing that there's like that Papa bear kind of like energy and it's almost like wanting that energy for her. Cause you felt safe because of him

Amanda Testa (34:11):

Take a deep breath in and out

Amy Stark (34:15):

Or I should say you felt his strength. Okay. So let's talk about that.

Amy Stark (34:25):

You know, when you're a kid and you just think your parents can just protect you from anything, a lot of us do feel that way. Right? We were, I was just talking with somebody recently about like how I didn't realize that my mom was like a person for like ever. So I became an adult. I think life is a little different now, you know, we're a little bit more open with our kids about our emotions and our life and they know more and we have conversations with them and stuff. So things are different now, but it's kind of funny to think about, but anyway, there's that little girl in you wanting that safety, that feeling of protection. So take a deep breath in and out and we're still tapping underneath the lip on the chin to, so the listeners know deep breath in and out, See how one kind of fear is, you know, connected to a belief, right. Or a thought pattern. So we go, we just go wherever the energy is, we just pay attention to how we're feeling or what's coming up to get a breath in and out.

Amy Stark (35:24):

Okay. So we're going to go to K 27, which is where the collarbone is. So right next to it, there's a, what's called the K 27 points. And I like to make a C with my hand and then tap there because it's easier than to do two hands. It's up to you. You can also just tap on one point. You don't have to do bilateral, but I personally find that more relaxing doing it, both sides and just one side. So take a deep breath in and out and I'm, we're going to revisit the fear. So even though I have this fear, even though I have this fear of black widow spiders, spiders, I deeply love and accept myself. I deeply love and accept myself. How are you feeling? I actually feel much more grounded. I feel like not quite as,uactivated we're now in the parasympathetic. Right? Cause we're calming our nervous system down. Right. So even though I have this fear, even though I have this fear, I deeply love and accept my,

Speaker 3 (36:29):

So I deeply love and accept myself.

Amy Stark (36:31):

Okay, good. We're going to go over the heart. So we're going to just, this is not actually standard EFT, but I really believe that it's a good one. So it's where we would imagine the heart being. But I know the heart is a little bit to the left scientists and me, but it's really where your thymus is. If you know where your thymus is, which most people don't, but it's just the center of your chest. So you want to tap on there and that's a good way of connecting with that. Mama bear energy. So any kind of that love feeling, there you go to get your breath in and out. Even though I can't protect her from everything,

Speaker 3 (37:08):

Even though I can't protect her from everything, but I want to, and I want,

Amy Stark (37:12):

I deeply love and respect myself. I deeply love and respect myself. Good, take another deep breath in and out. We'll go to the spleen and liver points. So these would be where the bra line would be or like a hands with down. If you're a man and you can either do one side or both sides, if you can reach across, you can kind of give yourself a hug. I can't reach across. So I just do it like a monkey and then tap on both sides. This would be also where anger would be. So liver is very much anger, energy. So you can tune into that if there's any of that, still there, breath in and out. So yeah, there's some energy coming up. We can talk about later, but anyway, take a deep breath in and out.

Amy Stark (38:03):

Okay. So what we want to do is just take a deep breath in and out and ground, you know, and then we'd check in with ourselves on a scale of zero to 10, how we did on that round. So like did it go down or did it go up? Cause sometimes it does go up, like I said, it's, you know, or now you're dealing with two issues and then you can tune in. You could say, where am I at on this issue? And that issue, you know, in this, on a scale of zero to 10 and try to measure both those. So honestly when you're, when you're tapping, the research is around an hour of tapping, which is a long time of tapping, but that's what the research says. And so if you tap for an hour, you actually turn on 72 genes for healing and you lower cortisol levels by 24%. So super awesome statistics there. But I really tell people, you know, any amount of tapping is great amount of tapping. So, you know, if you want to tap in the shower or I know people tap at stoplights or kids right before lunch, you know, go to the bathroom and tap or tap under the desk, you know, and that calms them if they have ADHD, you know? So it just, any amount of handling your emotions little by little, this is really helpful.

Amanda Testa (39:11):

Beautiful. I also think, you know, like you mentioned for kids, we've used it for our daughter when she had a hard time sleeping and like she was afraid to go to sleep.

Amy Stark (39:20):

It's huge for kids with sleeping. Yeah. It's amazing how they can be like, Oh, I'm not going to sleep. You're like, well it's bed time and you need to go to sleep. And like, this is mommy's time to go and, you know, relax. And so if you start tapping then within, around there, usually like a round of tapping. So it'd be all the points they will fall asleep or, you know, be like, I'm ready for sleep now. I mean, my, my, my son will like push me out of the room and be like, okay, mom. Okay.

Amanda Testa (39:49):

Okay. I love it. And then I think too, you know, what's great about it. Cause you mentioned, you know, I know meditation is such a big part of what you teach as well in your practice. So for people that maybe have a hard time meditating because they just can't sit still for whatever reason. Like I think tapping is a beautiful way to like take that time to tune in, but have like an active thing you're doing.

Amy Stark (40:07):

Yeah. I agree. I mean, I wish I had known EFT, especially back then because I was so stressed out. It was really scary to actually sit with my thoughts, but with EFT you can kind of get there and start moving out some of the trauma and then meditation becomes actually easier because you're not there. Aren't so many thoughts. There, there isn't so much trauma to be tuning into and things like that. So I really think anybody can do EFT and it really can help them progress along in life.

Amanda Testa (40:34):

Beautiful. And so, and I thank you so much for taking the time to share that. And just for anyone listening, I'll make sure to put in the show notes where you can find how to get in touch with Amy and learn more about, you know, this practice and all the amazing work that she does. So can you share a little bit more about where everyone can find you?

Amy Stark (40:52):

Sure. So my website is www.starktransformation.com and I have a podcast called The Ophelia podcast and we talk about EFT and energy and healing and things like that and transformation and I'm on all the social media handles @ starktransformation or The Ophelia Podcast

Amanda Testa (41:06):

Beautiful. And I love how you say, you know, if there's any last words that you'd like to leave the listeners with, I'd love to hear you share. I know how one of the things that you shared with me was, you know, uncovering the real you and how often times all these things are weighing us down. We're not even really aware of it, but maybe just share a little bit more about any last words or if there's a question that you really wished that I would have asked that I did not ask,

Amy Stark (41:29):

I really hope that everybody knows that they are energetic beings and that they have more control over how they feel than they ever imagined. And that if they want to create the life that they want, starting with something like EFT is really going to be helpful for them. And to stay curious, you know, wonder why you're having a symptom or why there's resistance or why something keeps showing up, you know, and use EFT to get to that new place that you want to be. And that new orientation to the world that you want to have. That's what I would say. Beautiful. And you also work with clients one on one and have an online course, so make sure to check out Amy and all her amazing offerings. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I loved being here. That was super fun. And thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you next week.

Amy Stark (42:17):

Thank you so much for listening to the Find your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa. And if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out. You can contact me@ amandatesta.com/activate, And we can have a heart to heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook and the group find your feminine fire group. And if you've enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends, go to iTunes and give me a five star rating and a raving review. So I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

Want to awaken your infinite creative potential?  If you’re looking to stop self censoring, and be inspired by one of my fave sexperts, then buckle up for an out of this world ride!  This week’s podcast I’m talking to my dear friend,

Keeley Olivia, Female Sexuality Expert on a mission to revamp the sexual experiences of women and couples the world over.

In this episode we go deep on awakening your orgasmic potential, and unlocking the infinite creative power of your sexual energy.

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

Keeley and I met during our training at the presigious Tantric Instutite of Integrated Sexuality.  She constantly inspires me with her unabashed Galactic Pussy Power, so I'm thrilled to share her transmission in this weeks podcast.

Keeley Oliva is a Pussy Connoisseur on a mission to revamp the sexual experiences of women worldwide. Her book Unleashing The Female O is the only Masturbation Memoir and Magical Pussy Guide in existence and it tells the story of ordinary female sexuality - including the unglamorous and uncouth - and offers a new narrative for women to connect lovingly and in a fun way to their bodies and sexuality.

Keeley’s TEDx talk Masturbation Is The New Meditation marks the moment when the Pussy Revolution will accelerate beyond belief sparking the New Wave Sexual Revolution which is essential if humanity wants to get itself out of the funk it’s currently in. She is the founder of Self Pleasure School, a global initiative to give women the proper sexual education they never got at school, empowering them to close the gender orgasm gap and all of the other gender gaps that still exist.

Keeley Olivia is a professionally trained transformational, and sex, love and relationship coach as well as an academic researcher and scientist with almost a decade of experience. She holds a first class degree in Chemistry, studied Regenerative Medicine at postgraduate level and has a Masters degree in Medical Statistics. She is now bringing Anarchy to the UK via the Sexual Revolution!

Keeley has a magical Vagina, and wants you to know, that so do you!

Thank you for listening!  If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends!

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

Does pleasure seem frivolous to you right now?  With all going on in the world, maybe it feels selfish.  

In this week's podcast episode you'll learn more about the scientifically backed research that shows how vital pleasure is to a healthy system.   And how now, more than ever, we need to use pleasure as a powerful resource of support so we can do the important work we're here to do. 

In this week's podcast, I'm delighted to talk with Dr. Saida Désilets, a thought-leader and body-philosopher who is renowned for being the founder of the modern Jade Egg movement and visionary spokesperson for sexual Sovereignty. 

Listen below, or tune in via: Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

If you are looking to step into your sexual sovereignty, to own your desire, and live life on your own terms, you are going to love this week’s podcast.  

Dr. Saida Désilets wants to live in a world filled with audacious, sexually sovereign women, living life on their own terms.

As a thought-leader and body-philosopher, she has authored: The Emergence of the Sensual Womanand Desireand has had her innovative method featured in Dr. Christiane Northrup’s bestselling books: Women’s Wisdom, Women’s Bodies & The Secret Pleasures of Menopause, as well as in the books of Dr. Rachel Abrams: Multi-Orgasmic Woman and BodyWise. 

Saida is renowned for being the founder of the modern Jade Egg movement and visionary spokesperson for sexual Sovereignty and is currently contributing to the first-ever medical study on the Jade Egg and its impact on the vaginal micro-biome. Saida has created eight online courses to assist women to successfully embody their sensuality, while enhancing their sexual health.

When she’s not dancing Cuban salsa or Kizomba with her husband, you can find Saida leading Wilderness Safaris for women in South Africa or writing deliciously sensual poetry.

You can learn more about her at dareyourdesire.com, and check out her Shameless Surrender course HERE.

Thank you for listening!  If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends!

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

(Find Full transcript below)

Amanda Testa (00:00):

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex love and relationship coach. And in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex love and relationships and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome. Hello everyone. And welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. If you are looking to explore your sexual sovereignty even more and learn about pleasure as a resource, you're going to love this episode today. I am so thrilled to be talking with Dr. Saida Desliets and she is an amazing teacher and guide in the realms of sexuality. She's authored numerous books, including The Emergence of The Sensual Woman, as well as Desire. And her work has been featured with so many leaders in this field like Dr. Christiane Northrup, and others. She's also one of the founders of the modern Jade Egg movement, and truly a visionary spokesperson around this and this contributing to the first ever medical study on the study of the Jade Egg and its impact on the vaginal microbiome, which is exciting. She's also numerous courses and amazing things out there. So I'm just really excited to dive in today. So welcome. Welcome Dr. Saida.

Dr. Saida Désilets (01:18):

Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here, Amanda. And as I said before, we jumped on the recording. Your voice is so fantastic. So I'm really delighted to be having this conversation and to go deep. I think this topic getsa lot of giggles and a lot of kind of crass comments, and I think it deserves a deep dive and a beautiful look definitely excited to be here.

Amanda Testa (01:42):

And I think too, for anyone listening, you know, they're looking for that depth and really, I think now, and we were talking about this before we came on. I'd love to dive into this in a moment just around how important pleasure truly is. You know, often people think of it as an afterthought, but it's so much deeper than that. And I would love if you would share a little bit around your philosophy on that.

Dr. Saida Désilets (02:05):

Yeah, absolutely. So you had mentioned one of my books and when I wrote it, it was many years ago. Doing the deep sexual practices changes you, but nobody gave me a manual of how to be in the world with these changes. So half of the book was based on the art of succulent living, which basically was an argument for making pleasure a leading force in our life now fast forward many years. Cause I wrote that in 2003. So it was a long time ago. So that's where many years now I'm working with colleagues in the female medicine realm, pelvic pain realm and research, and really starting to see neuroscience, especially a hormonal science catching up with this idea that pleasure isn't frivolous. It's an absolute foundational necessity. So I'm going to say it really simply as though, you know, let's just talking with a bunch of school kids because it's really important to make this come across.

Dr. Saida Désilets (03:15):

Basically our system, every biological creature on this planet, including human beings have an on and off. And when they're on. So let's imagine a switch and it's switched on. Now, we're in a kind of exploratory expanding into what feels good place. And then we have the off, which is contracting away from pain. This is right down to amoebas, like very simple forms of life. It has this open and close. Now we are human beings who are far more complex than amoeba. So we have a few different systems, but let's just look at the nervous system. And we see that we are designed predominantly for rest digest and sex. That's the dominant state because that's when everything is rejuvenating, you're recuperating and all systems are healthily online, like your immune system right now, that's super important. Hormonal system, all systems. And we have a hyper arousal state, which is also very important when we're being threatened, where all the other systems shut off blood just goes straight into the muscles.

Dr. Saida Désilets (04:26):

We're hyper adrenalized. Our vision narrows. So that we're very, we're just like, where do I need to run? Or who do I need to hit? It's like fight flight or freeze. And that state is not intended to be the default. Okay. So there's these two states. Now there's also such a thing as modulation. So it sounds like we shouldn't be in this hyperaroused state that often. However, how are we going to ever get anything done? If we're just chilling, making love, eating and digesting, we never want to do anything. So we need to feel aroused and we need to feel desire and we need to feel it like a calling a yearning, pulling us into the mystery, which is exciting because the mystery can feel like a big saber tooth tiger. So we do need that in order to function, we need both systems.

Dr. Saida Désilets (05:21):

So the idea here is not staying in one or the other. The idea is healthy modulation that we actually can skillfully move from one state to another. And that's where this personal practice becomes so important. And the best part about it is if we do it regularly, we become really robust. And as I was saying to you earlier, resource people are reasonable people and they're creative people and we cannot be resourced and creative and even reasonable if we're stuck in that fight flight or freeze mode. So pleasure then if you understand it, it's, it's the flavor of the parasympathetic system. It's the flavor of our senses fully online. So our sensuality is how we make sense of reality. And when that's fully online, then we're actually getting all the information we need to stay safe. So it's the opposite of what people have been doing. They've been shutting down little girls from a very young age are shut down. They're terrified to be comfortable in their own bodies. They're terrified of their desire sensuality. And then they operate like prey and that does attract predators. So the system's very interesting. We're actually designed to be more functional, safer, healthier, and optimized when pleasure is the dominant lead in our experience.

Amanda Testa (06:59):

And I think that's such a beautiful way of explaining it and how that shows how down to earth it really is. You know, and it's so key because you know, both pleasure and pain also originate from the same part in the brain. And when we can learn how to work with our parasympathetic nervous system to enjoy be in those States, it reduces a lot of that hypervigilance and all the things. And, you know, you mentioned something that I wanted to circle back to around little girls being shut down in so much shame. That's just like epidemic. I feel like for women these days and I find it so crippling in their relationships and just in their self image and the way they feel about their bodies. I'd love. If you could speak to that for a moment, a little more in depth.

Dr. Saida Désilets (07:44):

You know, I want to, I love, I love this topic. So shame is something that is learned. There's a lot of things that we learn we're born erotically innocent. And what that means is that every part of our body that we touch is interesting and has different sensations depending on where you're touching. And we're curious, this is a, there's an innocence to it. There's a deep sensuality to our existence when we're babies and very young. And yet what we have done as a society, I think because there's been pain and there's been misbehaviors and there's been traumas, then people want to protect, especially the girls, but little boys also need protection. And, and we do that through using shame rather than properly educating the young ones about boundaries, about what feels good and doesn't feel good about expressing themselves saying clear, no immediately reporting this to an adult, et cetera.

Dr. Saida Désilets (08:54):

So I want to a personal story because I think stories say a lot I'm, I'm Canadian, born French Canadian. And I happened to grow up on one of the most violent first nation reservations. So I was a minority. I got bullied and picked on a lot in, in these places domestic violence, gender based violence, sexual violence, drug, and alcohol abuse is exceptionally high and where I was even the police wouldn't go. It was too scary that the gangs had the mafia there had too much power. So you can imagine what I was exposed to. And you can imagine what my father is thinking when he's bringing his three year old daughter into this kind of community, but he didn't want to live separate from the people. He's like, if I'm working with the people, I'm going to live with the people, I'm gonna learn their customs.

Dr. Saida Désilets (09:46):

And my children are going to play amongst their children. And he really wanted to create that bridge and he knew there were dangers. So at three years old, my father started to teach me about healthy boundaries. What feels good? What doesn't feel good to yell, kick, scream, scratch do anything I need to do. If someone's touching me in a way that's not appropriate. And to immediately tell my parents. Now, there was abuse. And I was able to protect myself in many occasions and use that voice except for the first day of school on the first day of school I go and there's a bunch of cute kids. We're all six years old at this point, I think five or six, and the teacher who was an Asian lady, came around and put her hand down everyone's pants and stroked our genitals and told us isn't that nice?

Dr. Saida Désilets (10:40):

Doesn't that feel nice? And I froze. I froze because here's someone I'm supposed to respect and trust she's doing something I don't like. It doesn't feel good, but I don't know what to say. Cause it's my first day of school and I'm supposed to behave. So I go home and I immediately tell my parents, no other child reported it. The next day we had a different teacher. Why am I sharing this? No other child reported it. Shame keeps us quiet. Those children, most likely were also being abused at home or by somebody. So it sort of, here we go again. And unfortunately in that realm, when we start so young with abuse, we don't feel good about our bodies. We don't feel good about our pleasure because we feel aroused and we know it's wrong.Women who get raped often have orgasms and they feel horrible about this.

Dr. Saida Désilets (11:41):

It's a function of the biological body to protect her body. Because if she doesn't lubricate, it's going to hurt that much more. So it's not that she's loving the abuse. It has nothing to do with that piece. It's like a protective response to what's happening in terms of that stimulation. So now let's come back to you have a great life you're, you don't have abuse, which you're still getting shamed, right? Because everyone around you wants to keep you safe. And they think that if they shame you, you're going to behave properly and make good choices. But that's not the truth because after teaching as many women, as I have, many of them were shamed and they still went on to make bad decisions. And then they felt even more shame. So the spiral, the negative spiral of that is, is a very difficult one to break and we can break it and it breaks through what we're doing right now, Amanda, where we're talking about it, it breaks through coming together in community and speaking out loud, which was the original intent.

Dr. Saida Désilets (12:52):

I think of #metoo, before it kinda slid down a slippery slope, but to share our stories and to be held as powerful, even though we were victimized, we're not viewed as victims. We're viewed as powerful women sharing our story. That is a very important piece. And then the last piece of that is to realize that you can make sound healthy, erotic decisions without ever having to use shame. You can be grounded in your knowing in your body and have a strong NO and have beautiful boundaries and make wise choices actually in a better place, going back to the nervous system, because when you're in your amygdala, when you you're in fight or flight and you're freaked out, you're not going to be able to make a creative and sound decision. It's just that part of your brain goes offline. So you're going to default to the most habituated version of yourself, which would probably be like shame or shut down or whatever.

Dr. Saida Désilets (13:50):

So you're going to use that as your decision making process. If you actually use pleasure where you take a few really deep breaths, you calm down your heart rate, you take some space. You're like, I just need a moment. And if you've been doing the solo practice, you're moving your energy very differently. So you're like, you know what? As much as this is exciting, I just get that it's a no. And if the person isn't respectful, you leave or you draw attention, you call someone else over. You're more resourced to be creative and to keep yourself safe than when you're in that shame and shut down.

Amanda Testa (14:31):

Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think you mentioned too, that the shaming doesn't really teach you anything. It just causes more shame and that shame spiral. And I think too, just in general with all that's going on in the world, people, their nervous systems are really out of whack a lot of the time, unless you actively do work to take care of it.

Dr. Saida Désilets (14:54):

Yes, absolutely. And so, well, let's talk about what's happening right now. We've suffered for quite a few months in conditions that are just not good for human beings, isolation constant state of fear or terror around the unknown extra stress. If you're suddenly in isolation with a bunch of people, maybe that some of them you don't like, or it's just overwhelming, you don't get any space or maybe you were one of the first responders that was completely overworked. And you just had those stressful conditions whatever it is. There's a lot of stressful conditions for way too long, right? So now we're under resourced cause we can't get outside. We, we are not having our fresh air. We're not eating the best food. We're not having the best exercise. We're not feeling seen. We're not being expressed. Human beings need these things.

Dr. Saida Désilets (15:47):

Even introverts need human contact and connection. So we are severely under-resourced population. And then you throw on the fire, riots, and protests. Nobody is in sound of mind to deal with the pain of those who are expressing themselves. And so we're not being able to have a creative and healthy solution-based orientation to the challenges that are coming because we're just done. And that's when you've been in that arousal state, that sympathetic state of nervous system for far too long, you're burnt out and maybe even depressed. I mean, there's, there's many factors because everyone responds to this differently. So I've been calling that the Post andemic Re-emergence Syndrome where people just don't know what to do with another person. And they don't even really know who they are now in relationship to other people because they haven't for the majority. Most of us, haven't had an ideal setting where we could take care of ourselves in a great way.

Dr. Saida Désilets (17:02):

Some of us have, I have to say I'm very blessed because I actually got stuck in Hawaii. I wasn't meant to be here, but Hey, pandemic, Hawaii, not a bad place to be, right. It had its stressors as well. But you know, I could come into the backyard and get some sunshine versus being stuck in a tiny apartment in a city, let's say so. So how do we deal with that? And I really feel like the entire conversation that we're having, if we truly want to be part of a change is going to last a change that regards every human being, as sovereign with respect, with curiosity, with connection, we want that, which state of being do you think that's going to be more accessible in, right? Yes. The pleasure or pleasure is online. So the thing that I would love to communicate with everybody, even if you don't have a personal practice at this time, at least do some basic things to regulate modulate the nervous system away from constant distress, into calm and connected.

Dr. Saida Désilets (18:18):

And so one of the ways I can share, if you like a simple technique, this technique comes from a lot of research. It's a vagal toning technique. So it deals with the Vagas nerve, which is very, very important. It receives a lot of information from our gut and other areas of our body. And so it's communicating to the brain, are we safe or not safe? So if the Vegas system is relaxed, then the signals are telling, Oh, actually we can stop being freaked out now. So it actually plays a really important role. We just don't talk about it that much. So vagal toning is the, it's the training we need for that healthy modulation back and forth from arousal to relaxation. So that that's great because vagal toning ends up my favorite term. It's a lot of my work is relaxed arousal. I just think it's fabulous.

Dr. Saida Désilets (19:10):

And it's something that we get, excuse me, through constant practice, proper practice. And it's also what we can get through vagal toning exercises. So a very simple one, if you can breathe, you can do this. Okay? You don't need any other training. If you're breathing right now, you can actually do this. Cause it's a breathing exercise, very simple. So I'll get everyone who's watching and listening to put their hands right down on their belly. And we're going to do deep diaphragmatic breathing, which just means belly breathing. So as inhale, inhale through your nose and imagine expanding your belly with a big full in breath. And as you exhale, I want you to make an O shape with your mouth and let the breath out really slowly.

Dr. Saida Désilets (20:00):

Let's do two more of those big breath with the belly And slow exhale with the O shape of your mouth. One more time.

Dr. Saida Désilets (20:28):

That almost instantly tells your nervous system. It's safe to relax. You need to know that it's safe

Dr. Saida Désilets (20:37):

So that you can shift into parasympathetic. The sound that slight sound is also vibrating the Vagas system, the vagal nerve. So you want to do that with that slight sound that I was doing, you can do this anywhere. You can teach it to kids and elderly. And if someone's even paraplegic, can't move their body. They're still breathing. So you can teach them this breath. And imagine if we spread this, Amanda, not to just 50 or a hundred or a thousand, but a million or more people who are self-regulating just even with that one simple technique, I'm on fire trying to get this out to everyone right now and just giving it away, giving it away as much as I can, like let's take responsibility to self regulate. So that that Post Pandemic Reemergence Syndrome that causes us to be really quite fragile and unable to creatively meet the issues that are arising.

Dr. Saida Désilets (21:40):

And we're like I said, under resourced, it will support that transformation. It's not going to happen overnight because our systems have been taxed. But the more we do this throughout the day, whenever you notice I'm holding tension in my belly, just do a few of those breaths. Maybe someone sharing something with you, that's you starting to feel upset about it. Do some of those breaths. Now, if you don't want to sit there with an O shaped mouth, just exhale with your mouth slightly open during that conversation slowly. And if you put your hands casually over your belly, it's going to remind you to do that deeper. Diaphragmic breath, that belly breath, it's, it's a skill of liberation. It's a skill of transformation. And it's a skill that all of us have a responsibility to practice. At least that's how I feel about it right now.

Amanda Testa (22:36):

I love that. And that's so simple. And I think too, for those that think pleasure sounds so intimidating. That's an example of how it doesn't have to be. It's just these simple things. And of course, if you want to take it further, you're more than welcome to. And I think sometimes when you're in these stressed out times, it's harder to think to go from feeling so overwhelmed, wanting to be sexual or to feel even your desire alive like that. The steps to get there. Yes. Get there when you're already in this relaxed arousal. All exactly. Exactly. Well, let's talk about that because,

Dr. Saida Désilets (23:13):

There is also a misnomer. So first of all, when we say pleasure, we almost instantly jump to the act of intercourse. There's like so much more available. Okay. So we need to actually bring to the table of casual conversation, the greater range of what pleasure is. And if we are moving in a direction of desire, it doesn't have to immediately lead to genital masturbation. I mean it can, but it doesn't have to. So for example, I have a stable solo cultivation practice I do every day is non negotiable. One involves nourishing my adrenals. So there's some deep type of diaphragmic breath. I do specifically to flush, the excess cortisol out of my system. It's really simple. It sounds complicated, but it's super simple. And then I actually breathe into my ovaries. So I focus as a woman. I focus for them. If you have testicles, then you would breathe into your testicles.

Dr. Saida Désilets (24:13):

But for those who have ovaries, you breathe into the ovaries. And then I do a short breast massage. So that whole thing might take minimum four or five minutes and cultivating pleasure and telling my system helping my hormonal system. And that's super baseline. I mean, I prefer to do a lot longer practice, but if that's all I have, that's how I start my day. And I end my day in the dark. I turn all the lights off. I either have no sound on or something relaxing on and I'll just put my legs, my feet up against a wall, like all the way up in a cushion under my butt. And literally just lay there with my arms over my head or on the side. And those are super simple things that help again, restabilize the system so that I get into that state of relaxed arousal.

Dr. Saida Désilets (25:06):

I am aware. And if I then choose to self-pleasure or make love I'm resourced now for that experience to actually be rejuvenative because sometimes self-pleasuring can be incredibly depleting. People write to me all the time. They're like, why am I so exhausted after my orgasm? And it's normally because we're using that level of pleasure to resolve tension. So we want to be more responsible. We want to resolve our tension first, enter a pleasure practice from a state of softening openness connectedness. Now that's not always possible, but this is more of the advanced work. And so anyone who's listening to this who's done started to dabble and is curious. And then that's where we're headed with this so that it becomes as staple as brushing your teeth, eating good food, getting some exercise, et cetera. Right. And I think that's, what's so beautiful about a lot of these practices is that they are they're simple.

Dr. Saida Désilets (26:07):

We just have never been taught them. You know, I think as a woman, when I first learned some of these practices, I was just, why is no one ever taught me this? They should be, you know, sung from the mountaintops. And that's why I'm such a fan of your work. And because I feel like it's just education that every woman needs access to. All right. But I agree. Right. I agree because I have had clients as young, as 11, where they were very mature and their mother wanted them to understand they didn't know what to do say when their period was going to come. And just to understand what does it mean to be a woman? So simple things, young women becoming blossoming into womanhood all the way to, I think she was this radical woman, but she was 90 years old and she was aroused 24 seven.

Dr. Saida Désilets (26:54):

She's excited. I don't know what to do with all this energy. And I'm like, perfect. Let's harness it. So the spectrum of what's available to us to our entire life. I want you to understand this as a listener, especially if you have a female system, because I deal more with female systems, we have a female endocrine system and your running female hormones in your body. Then the thing that makes you start to menstruate and what's necessary for that to be more pleasant, let's say is the same thing that's going to help you conceive and have fertility. It's the same thing that's going to bring the baby into the world. It's the same thing that's going to help your body recover post-birth, it's the same thing that's gonna help you go through perimenopause. It's the same thing that's going to help you have a vibrant post-menopausal existence.

Dr. Saida Désilets (27:50):

And it's the same thing that we use to live our most expressed life and have fantastic pleasure and orgasm and connection with our beloved. It's exactly the same. So why are we not as a society, pleasure oriented in our education to young people. If this is a life skill, not a sexual skill, a life skill, something that's translatable in many moments of life. Something like imagine just a simple thing. If everyone was taught as a kid, if you're feeling upset, breathe like this, it will help you relax. And then they just have this skillset. And now we have all these people who just understand when I'm getting upset, I need to breathe deeply. I need to move away. I need to take some space. I need to find out what's happening and then come back to the conversation or the experience. Right. and we don't do that.

Dr. Saida Désilets (28:52):

It seems very odd. So I'm just excited for everyone who's here because wherever you're at on your path, you're here in this moment and you are saying, yes, this is important. And I want to tell you, there's a lot of science now backing this. Okay. So I want to share something amazing from neuroscience, which is so throughout my career, I started to notice that one of the links that get severed for all of us, it doesn't matter who we are, is the link between our genitals and our heart our conscience and our feeling nature. When we refer to the heart, I don't just mean physical heart. I mean, the part of your emotional being that generates joy and respect and love and connection. Study the heart math Institute, that field of the heart is so important and the heart actually informs the brain. So if we regulate the heartbeat, we regulate the nervous system.

Dr. Saida Désilets (29:49):

It's really amazing. So I found very early when I was learning sexual practices, something was missing for me, nearly every teacher I met, they had a lot of magnetism, but they were behaving in ways that I just couldn't respect, let's say, in their private lives and sometimes in their public life. And as I progressed and got more and more experienced and more and more advanced and really did the work, then I realized they're missing the heart-genital connection. And it's a crucial connection. And so that practice is simply noticing the area around your heart, spending some time breathing and softening, open that area, instead of love, because people are kind of confused around the word love. I often say profound respect, because if you have that, then you're in the state of love. And then starting to send that quality down with your exhale, feel like it's heat or warmth flowing right down and wrapping around the genitals.

Dr. Saida Désilets (30:57):

So you're, you're kind of sharing this connected, respectful state with your genitals. This is a state, but I've even had to train some of the top sex therapists PhDs and sex therapy PhDs and sex research doctors. They couldn't do this, this one simple practice. They could not do it because it is severed at a very young age, but we can bring it back. So neuroscience, I just read a very recent study is now saying that brain plasticity. So neuroplasticity, the ability for us to change and become something new to shift patterns and habits and even body stuff to actually get younger and more vibrant. Like all of that stuff, we need plasticity for that. You're you create hyperplasticity. A lot of it when you willingly and intentionally invoke that state of love or deep respect, like it's so obvious thousands of years with these other trainings, they have these lineages, they know that, but science is now demonstrating in a measurable way.

Dr. Saida Désilets (32:11):

The impact of that, the impact of relaxing your heart of intentionally loving your body intentionally, if you can't think the word love and just deep respect, and that might even be triggering, but that's okay because that's the journey that we need to go on as we shift, because in the beginning you mentioned sovereignty, we all must shift out of this woundology victim place that we've been entrained live in, into sovereignty in this act of connecting heart and genitals of self-generating respect is a first step in that direction.

Amanda Testa (32:51):

I love how you said too, that science is backing up a lot of this ancient wisdom. Yeah. Kind of like prove it in some measurable way for, for people out there that are skeptical. Exactly. Exactly. I I'm a geek. I really am. I mean, I I'm, you know, I'm known as the pleasure doc, because I have a, a PhD. And I obviously devote my life to this, which I think is kind of a funny term.

Dr. Saida Désilets (33:18):

But then I was like, okay, I'll accept that. Because there is authority in, in a lot of experience and a lot of research, but I'm very skeptical. Of everything. And I don't, except just the first thing that comes to me and this ability to discern is also a sovereign person. Uit's an attribute of a sovereign person. We're not discerning when it comes in, in the realm of sexuality and sensuality and information where I call it the MCegg movement where there's everyone, literally I know where you've been trained by what you're saying. I know what books you've read. I know what school you went to. And it's pretty much all outdated. So you have to be discerning because people are saying the weirdest stuff now. And because it's the realm of sexuality, we don't care that there's no standard. Right. Why it's ridiculous.

Dr. Saida Désilets (34:19):

So it's so important. Do the work, if you don't believe what I'm saying, it's okay. But go and do the work, go and start to research more deeply arenas of where sciences is examining the impact of pleasure. Look at it. In terms of neuroscience, look at it in terms of psychology, like depression, PTSD, look at it in hormonal research, all of that fertility, one of the best trainers in the world, he was like mr. Olympic for a while, he said giving the exact same exercises, the results of a client would go way off the charts if he had them entering a state of joy first. So he would do these laughing exercises before the training. That was the only thing different than he was doing and having these massive results. So you could also research pleasure and fitness. I mean, there's, there's just a lot of information available.

Dr. Saida Désilets (35:19):

Be discerning because it's your body, it's your life. And if you get good information, you'll be more encouraged to actually have a regular practice. Cause you're like, wow, there's really honest benefits. I mean, don't take it for me. I've been doing it for two and a half decades. And I can't imagine not having a pleasure based practice. Cause I think I actually would go insane. And I tested that Amanda I've literally said, okay, I think it was in 2010. One of my teachers said, you need to be abstinent. I'm like, what do you mean? Like no sex with your husband and no masturbation, no self-pleasuring whatsoever for four months. Now you have to understand something. I came out of the womb masturbating. There's never been a day where that's not happening. So I was like, are you kidding me? Four months? I did it. I went through extreme pain the first two weeks, like physical pain from energy blockage.

Dr. Saida Désilets (36:21):

Like there was no more blood flow, proper blood flow to my genitals. There was like a lot of problems happening in that area that a lot of pain was building in that area. And then at the end life looked great and I lost all desire. I didn't feel interested in anything. And I suddenly could have compassion for women who would come to me and like, I don't have a little bit, I really don't care if I ever have sex again like that, that kind of like place a lot of us can go to right after that four months, I did my own personal pleasure based practice immediately, including the Jade egg. I immediately brought it back. And within one week everything was back online and purring and like, Oh my God, I can never not do pleasure practices. I do not want to live. Like I just lived those last four months.

Dr. Saida Désilets (37:17):

That is a horrible way to live. And it's optional. Right? It's optional. I really want the listener to understand this feeling flat-lined and crappy and depressed. And like there's nothing beautiful to look forward to. Or there's just not your orgasms. Aren't as great as they used to be. That is optional. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that way. The unfortunate part is it does require a bit of investment in ourselves of time of connection with ourselves.

Amanda Testa (37:55):

I think that's so interesting to note how it only took four months is a long time, but so many go through longer periods of that. And I can, you just know in my own life, before I started doing this work, I didn't even realize this was something that was even out there. And so I can tell the difference if I go through periods of not being connected to myself in my practice, it is a big difference in my overall health and everything.

Dr. Saida Désilets (38:19):

So I love that you are so invested in putting all the dots together and doing the research to understand like, why does it make such a difference in your overall health? Well, it's obviously an important part. It's an important system in our whole, self right? Yeah. What, maybe we could you share around that? You know, how, yeah, exactly. Taking care of your, your sexual health, it affects your overall health.

Dr. Saida Désilets (38:43):

Well, it doesn't just affect your overall health. It will. It does. I mean, like I said, the way that the body is construction as a physiological biological creature, is it all functions, optimally all systems. When we are more in that relaxed arousal place, a healthy modulating nervous system is a highly functioning human being in every way imaginable. It will also help you go through some, sometimes you go through periods of distress and intensity. That's just inevitable in the human experience, we're going to have mess human life is messy.

Dr. Saida Désilets (39:21):

Oh my God, it's so messy. So having a practice that I call it marinating in our own essence, when we take the time to marinate in that essence and really know this part of ourselves, then we have more tenacity when faced with challenge or mess or, you know, these things that come up for us that are inevitable. And we get over them a lot more quickly and they don't have to turn into trauma because we're, we're processing more quickly. We're understanding what's happening and we're moving the system to release any of that kind of triggers that can happen in difficult moments, but it's not just you that benefits. So I want to make this very clear. And this has happened with multiple multiple clients because a lot of women who do this work are mothers. Their children will come to them and say, whatever you doing, thank you.

Dr. Saida Désilets (40:18):

You're way more fun to be around. And if they don't say that the mother notices that the attitude of the kids improves and then her relationship with her partner improves, or if she doesn't have a partner, her relationship with her immediate, like people who are immediately always under her sphere, why? It's called limbic resonance. So mammalian beings learn non verbally from each other. So when we're little tiny babies, our mom doesn't say, this is how you sleep. And this is how you digest. You learn it. It's your proximity to her body to limbic resonance. So her digestive system teaches yours her ability to fall asleep and sleep well teaches yours, et cetera. So you have this learning that you do, that's non verbal. So the state of being that we're in, not the state of being, we'd like to be in because a lot of people virtue signal and they like to be like, I'm super spiritual and I'm awesome.

Dr. Saida Désilets (41:21):

But actually they are quite, I hate using the word, but toxic inside, they don't love themselves. They hate people that can't stand. Like there's a lot of stuff on, right? So, that is what gets transmitted. What you embody the most is what gets transmitted. So when you have a pleasure based practice and you have self-respect and you generate joy for no reason, just for being alive for breathing, that's what gets transmitted because that's the marinated essence that's what's influencing. So you influence everybody with that state of being. So not only are you benefiting, you're now a change maker in your world, surely because you're now more embodied in your lived experience in your lived truth.

Amanda Testa (42:12):

So beautiful, powerful. Thank you so much again for being here. And I just am so grateful for all the wisdom that you've shared today. I'd love if you would just let everyone know the best way to connect with you and learn more.

Dr. Saida Désilets (42:24):

Absolutely. I want to encourage everybody. First of all, if you haven't read the book Desire, find it because it will help you understand that desires, is not just sexual. It comes in six different, very powerful forms, but there is definitely an erotic component. So the book covers all of that and it's a small little pocket book. It's very easy to read and that's desire the book.com. So just the information on that book and my website dareyourdesire.com. And there is something I'm doing, Amanda. Maybe you can provide a link. I don't know it's up to you, but it's called Shameless Surrender. And it's a six hour course that I did live, but now it's, I'm offering it as the recordings. And normally it's been a couple hundred dollars to do that, but it's I'm, I want to give it away because I think it's like $37. I just want as many people doing this work as possible because the more we can embrace being shameless, the more we can embrace surrender, the more we can embrace that it's actually natural and healthy to feel good. Then the more, like I said at the start, resource will be, and we are transforming the world through that. So yeah.

Amanda Testa (43:40):

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to share the links for how to connect more with Dr. Saida and as well as the Shameless Surrender classes. Those sound amazing. So, yay. I'm just honored to have you. You're such a wealth of knowledge and I just think you're an amazing teacher and leader. So thank you.

Dr. Saida Désilets (44:02):

Such a pleasure and bring me back when my research is published because it's, I cannot wait to tell you what's going on. I can't say it right now, but it's going to be a really exciting episode when we are going to get back together.

Amanda Testa (44:14):

Yes. Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening. We will see you next time. Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa. And if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation invite you to reach out. You can contact me@amandatestthe.com slash activate, and we can have a heart to heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook and the group Find Your Feminine Fire Group. And if you've enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends, go to iTunes and give me a five star rating and a raving review. So I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

Do you feel overwhelmed and exhausted?  But still feel like you're not doing enough?  If so, you’re not alone. If you’re ready to end this cycle, then tune in as this week I’m pinching myself as I get to have another conversation with one of my superheros, Dr. Emily Nagoski.  

In this episode we're diving into how we can move through burnout, reconnect to desire, and cultivate sexual wellbeing.  (Hint, it's not what you think)

Wow, This episode is so full of incredible tips and science on what it really takes to move through burnout, the science of desire and what it takes to build wellbeing, and how to cultivate an amazing sexual connection.

Dr. Emily Nagoski is one of my superheros when it comes to sex education.  I'm so grateful to have her back on the podcast this week! She is the award-winning  author of the New York Times bestseller, Come As You Are: the surprising new science that will transform your sex life and The Come As You Are Workbook, and co-author, with her sister Amelia, of Burnout: the secret to unlocking the stress cycle. She began her work as a sex educator at the University of Delaware, where she volunteered as a peer sex educator while studying psychology with minors in cognitive science and philosophy. She went on to earn a M.S. in Counseling and a Ph.D. in Health Behavior, both from Indiana University, with clinical and research training at the Kinsey Institute. Now she combines sex education and stress education to teach women to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies.

Because of her research in Come As You Are, she found so many were fascinated with her chapter around stress and feelings, so it led her and her sister to co author Burnout, which is a fantastic guide, filled with concrete, specific evidence-based, doable strategies that you can use to move through burnout.  

Find Emily's podcast, the Feminist Survival Project 2020 HERE.

If you enjoyed this episode, check out her interview on episode 46 here: The Secrets To A More Satisfying Sex Life.

Thank you for listening!  If you enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends!

Join in the discussion on this episode and more in my free Facebook Group, Find Your Feminine Fire HERE.

Listen here or tune in via Apple Podcasts, Stitcher or Spotify.

(Find Full transcript below)

Amanda Testa (00:03):

Hello everyone and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. Do you ever feel overwhelmed and exhausted? If so you're not alone? If you are curious to learn more about why women feel so exhausted and overwhelmed by everything they have to do, and yet we're still worried that we're not doing enough. We're going to dive into a little bit of that today along with more science around mental health, relationships and more. So I'm so thrilled today to be talking with one of my superheroes, Dr. Emily Nagoski. Welcome Emily. Thank you so much for coming back on the show today. Oh, it's totally my pleasure. And I am thrilled to dive in today because you know, you have the amazing book, Come As You Are, as well as Burnout, The Secret To Unlocking The Stress Cycle. And I find that, you know, both of these books have been so transformational for me and I actually just re-read burnout again recently because I can't just stress how much that book explains things and makes you feel like you're not in it alone.

Emily Nagoski (01:08):

Oh good.

Amanda Testa (01:09):

And you know, and I think this is something I hear so much from women, just that you know, we do everything and yet still there's a part of us that like feels not enough and you know, and in the book, you talk a lot about and "Human Giver Syndrome". And I would love first of all before we dive in, if you want to share a little bit of a context of a, I know people who have listened to the podcast are probably familiar with who you are, but just a little,, a little teeny bit about what you do and who you are.

Emily Nagoski (01:43):

Sure. I'm primarily a sex educator. So Come As You Are is a book about the science of women's sexuality, but it turns out the best predictor of women's sexual wellbeing is their overall wellbeing. Go figure. So there is one chapter in Come As You Are about like stress and relationships and feelings. And as I was traveling around talking about Come As You Are, the year it came out, people kept saying, Oh yeah, all that sex science is great. Emily, but you know, the one chapter that changed everything was I one chapter about stress and feelings. And I was like, well that's interesting cause I've worked really hard on the sex science. And I told my sister Amelia is my identical twin sister. She's a choral conductor or professional musician. And I told her this and she was like, yeah, no shit, dumbass. Cause remember that time when I was in the hospital and you taught me this stuff and it, you know, saved my life twice. And I said, so we should racially to write a book, write a book about that. So that's that's the origin story of Burnout. The connection between the two, of course is wellbeing of women. My sort of purpose on earth is to teach women to live with confidence and joy in their bodies.

Amanda Testa (02:55):

Oh, so needed, so needed.

Amanda Testa (03:00):

And I love that your sister and you coauthored burnout. And I think it's so interesting because as I know for myself have experienced in my own life when I've completely burned out, you know, I have so many women that are always, Oh, I've lost my libido or I want to find my reconnect to my sexuality. And I find, like you say, it's so true. A huge part of that is because they're just stressed. They're stressed beyond belief and there's no way that they can even get to that place because they're either just spinning, spinning, spinning, or alternatively just so burned out. They're just like, Ugh, I just, I'm ready to give up. Exactly.

Emily Nagoski (03:37):

And that is the very nature of burnout for us. Burnout is when you feel overwhelmed and exhausted, everything you have to do but are still worried that you're not doing enough. And the cure for burnout, the problem with burnout is that it means you haven't got enough left to take care of anybody, including yourself. So the idea of the cure for burnout being self care is just sort of by definition impossible. The cure for burnout cannot be self care. It has to be all of us caring for each other. So when women are in that place of just having, given everything they have to give and having nothing left and yet still kind of beating themselves up because there's still so much more to do, the answer is not that they need more grit, they don't need more persistence. What they need is more help. They need more support. They need more kindness and compassion. Not just self kindness for themselves. Yes. That, but also kindness and support from all the people in their lives.

Amanda Testa (04:37):

Yes. So key. And so I'm curious, you know, when you talk about that, so it sounds all well and good. So many people I'm sure listening and like, yeah, yeah, that would be so great, but how do I tap into more community support? What would you know, things that we can do?

Emily Nagoski (04:53):

So yeah, we talk about like, it's all of us caring for each other. And one of the questions we get most asked most often about this is from journalists who were like, that's okay. So, but just hypothetically, what if you don't have anyone in your life who will turn toward your difficult feelings with kindness and compassion, who will be emotionally and instrumentally there for you? Come what may, what if you have no one in your life like that? And at first when we were answering this question, we'd be like, well, you just need to get more better people in your life. This sort of like flippant answer. And then we thought about our own story and we're like, that's, that's not how it worked for us. We we were raised in quite a dysfunctional family of origin, I would say with lots of rigid rules around emotions that basically you don't share anything, you don't talk about your feelings ever under any circumstances.

Emily Nagoski (05:49):

So here we were writing this book where we're reading this very hardcore science is affective neuroscience and comparative psychology, very difficult science. And the answer in this really difficult science kept being, well, it kept being connection. It kept being turning, turning toward each other's difficult feelings with kindness and compassion. This is not, this is, we did not want the answer to be love. We did not want the answer to be support and connection because that's like, that's what we wanted it to be. Like sleep and nutrition. And that's it turns out no, I mean those things are important. And the thing that really matters is that you be able to connect on a really deep, authentic, vulnerable level. And so Amelia and I could no longer deny it because the science kept telling us over and over that this is what we had to do.

Emily Nagoski (06:45):

And so we began sharing with each other the stories from our childhood that we had never told each other stories we were both there for but had never talked about. And what we found was that if both people are willing to take at least a little bit of a risk, you'll find that you can build this kind of connection with a person to be thoroughly vulnerable, thoroughly authentic. You don't need many people like this in your life. Maybe two is all it takes. And the people who deserve this kind of connection want to build it with you. Even if you feel like you haven't got it right now, it is not easy. It was difficult. It was not pretty. There was a lot of like crying involved. But it was worth it because at the end of the process of writing this book and being forced to acknowledge that it really is about goddamn love. Amelia and I built a sister relationship like we never had before in our whole lives.

Amanda Testa (07:50):

Oh I love that. And I think it's, you know, it's interesting because I love the love being such a powerful component and I think that can sometimes,

Emily Nagoski (08:01):

I'm glad you feel that way? Cause we hated it. (laughter).

New Speaker (08:04):

Cause I mean it just seems like it's something that's so hard to define, but the way you just shared about it made it a lot more understandable. It's, you know, having that connection with someone where you feel you can be deeply vulnerable and be able to connect in that and not, not be judged or shamed or ridiculed.

Emily Nagoski (08:23):

And the relief for us is that it doesn't have to look like really peaceful communication. It doesn't have to be happy and calm all the time. There can be a lot of ruckusness. There can be anger and love at the same time. There can be a total ridiculous laughter and love, like full emotional presence at the same time. It doesn't have to look like what you imagine a therapist. Like I'm witnessing your feelings and I'm noticing like that's not, that's not what it is for Amelia and me. It's not what it is for my husband and me. That's not what love has to look like. And if nothing else, I hope that Burnout shows all the different ways that love can show up in our lives. It doesn't have to just follow the script of like ultra feminine script, gentleness and positivity.

Amanda Testa (09:17):

Right. And I think, I think that that part that you said, having the ruckusness and the love and the anger, the both and part, that is so important. I feel like, at least I know in our relationship, but there's a lot of ups. There's a lot of ups and downs and good ways, but we're just very loud and volatile, passionate people, let's just say. Yeah and, but we just get fired up and it works well because now that we've been together for long enough that we understand what's going on with one another, it's much easier to roll with it versus feeling, you know, like when we get into an argument shutting us down, we're both like, Oh, okay, I see what's happening here. And we can laugh about it once we've had our moment.

Emily Nagoski (10:02):

Yes.

Amanda Testa (10:04):

But you know, and I think, you know, it's important that we are moving to this point because as we talked earlier, you know about how important mental health is in relationships and that does affect everything. It affects the sexuality effects. It's a huge part of it.

Emily Nagoski (10:19):

Oh my gosh.

Amanda Testa (10:20):

I would love if you would share a bit more about that if you don't mind.

Emily Nagoski (10:24):

I actually, so there's some brand new research that's just starting. Mmm. So this is fairly complex stuff. Okay. Let me boil it down as much as I can. So it turns out sexual desire is not a thing that just sort of like sparks inside your body. If you've read come as you are, you know about responsive desire, where it emerges in anticipation of pleasure. What this new research is exploring and finding is that it's not just that it emerges in anticipation of pleasure, it emerges in a context of connection. So when one person brings forward an energy of positivity and sexual energy, they can bring their partner along with them when it's, when their partner is in the state of mind to have that happen. And the more you do that, the more you have this sort of like positive feedback loop of you feeling really connected with each other and each person's energy transfers to the other person, then that sounds really sort of like, Woowoo, when I say it, like your energy transfers to another person.

Emily Nagoski (11:31):

But like, no, really your brainwaves begin to synchronize in a really explicit way very soon into any kind of experiment. So in a really literal, explicit sense, your brains begin to the technical term is entrain into the same waves when you have this kind of connection, and the opposite is also true. So if one person has sort of like an emotional wall up or like is exhausted and overwhelmed and so they're shut down that has an impact on the partner who respond, who may respond to the wall by shutting down themselves. It's a kind of empathic response in a way, but it results in this negative feedback loop of people moving further away from each other sexually. So in this really explicit sense, our connection with our partners is influenced by the structure of the influence of our connection with our partners.

Amanda Testa (12:34):

That amazes me. And it also makes so much sense, right? Yes.

Emily Nagoski (12:39):

Like on the one hand, it's like, wow, that's really cool science when I read it. And on the other hand I'm like, well, duh, of course it is. Oh, of course.

Amanda Testa (12:47):

And I love the science backing up some, some of the ancient teachings in some ways. You know, it's funny because I think one of the things that I love to learn about is sacred sexuality and just, you know, how you connect with another person's energy and, and I mean that sounds very woo of course, but this, this research kind of just shows like that that connection is important and there is something to it. You can measure it. Yep. I love that.

Emily Nagoski (13:16):

Um one of my favorite things is looking at research that applies lots of different approaches and methodologies and how it finds the same goddamn thing over and over.

Emily Nagoski (13:24):

So the best book of 2020, in my opinion so far is a book called Magnificent Sex by Peggy Kleinplatz and Dana Menard,. This is a team of researchers in Canada who interviewed dozens of people who self identify as having extraordinary sex lives as having spectacular sex. And so the researchers wanted to find out, okay, so what are the characteristics of this like optimal sex, this magnificent sex, and how do you get there? How do you go from having regular sex in your life to having extraordinary sex? And the characteristics of extraordinary sex are almost all about connection, a combination of authenticity, which in this research is defined as being fully who you are, plus vulnerability, which is in this context defined as being fully who you are in the presence of another person who welcomes and accepts all of who you are.

Emily Nagoski (14:23):

Which that's like when you think about the script in people's heads about what we're taught great sex looks like, right? Lot of people's first thoughts are about like performance about positions and orgasms and frequency and none of those things show up on the list of what great sex looks like among people who self identify as having extraordinary sex. Instead, it's all about this really deep connection. Empathy is the Metta factor. It is the, the factor that predicts the other factors, the ability to be really in tune with your own internal experience and also really in tune with the other person's internal experience, which like that's sacred sexuality. Right? Yes.

Amanda Testa (15:07):

I love this so much. That's fascinating. And so I'm curious from your perspective, what would be some things people can do to try to up their connection?

Emily Nagoski (15:18):

Well, when you ask people how did you go, how did you get the, how did you go from being just like a regular person to having this like profound, like life altering, learning more about yourself as a human being, becoming a better person through your sexuality?

Emily Nagoski (15:35):

How did that happen? The first thing they say is I had to unlearn everything I thought I knew about bodies and sex and gender and power and love and intimacy and trust. You just start from scratch, noticing only what things feel like in your body and how things feel for your partner. Yeah. And and prioritizing that connection. That's it. So good. And it really is,

Emily Nagoski (16:02):

I mean, it's so easy to say, I say it and I'm like, well, that's a couple of sentences. And then you think about what it actually takes to do that work. Like, let me not minimize what an undertaking that is, but the fact that people go through that process is a Testament to how powerful the results are. Like it is so worth it. It changes your relationship with your body, with your sexuality, with your partner. It can transform your understanding of the nature of the universe. Like literally people are talking about like I have a greater sense of peace and meaning and purpose.

Amanda Testa (16:37):

I mean, I, I believe it. I totally believe it. And I, I was just going to say that too because yes, it sounds so easy, but yet there's so much too simple, but the process to get there might not be so simple. Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (16:50):

And there's the, because we are raised in a, this very toxic culture that first of all lies to us about our sexuality. Literally. Like there is nothing I learned about sex up until the age of 18. That was not wrong. Every single thing was disproved by the science I was exposed to over the following 10 years. And I have spent the, my career teaching people the stuff I learned that taught me that everything I learned was wrong. But not only was I lied to, I was taught a whole bunch of kind of moral messages about what it meant to be good at sex, to be a good sexual woman, to perform sexuality adequately. That I could be like a failure as a human if I failed to follow the sexual script. So it felt like there was a lot at stake for me being able to conform to this culturally constructed aspirational sexual ideal. It felt like there was a lot to lose and as you gradually learn what's actually true about how sex works, that it's has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with pleasure and connection. You realize that they're , you know you're doing sex right when it is literally impossible to fail.

Amanda Testa (18:11):

Yeah. That's impossible to fail. And that requires that connection and vulnerability.

Emily Nagoski (18:17):

Yeah, trust and sort of what, what Peggy Kleinplatz and her team says is creating a context of just safe enough and what counts as just safe enough is of course going to vary from couple to couple and encounter to encounter and person to person. For some people turning on the lights is like right at the edge of what they can tolerate, in terms of risk and it's like this huge thing that they turned on the lights and they can see each other's bodies and they can allow their partner to see their bodies. For some people that is going to a swing club. For some people that is opening their relationship. For some people it is daring to be in a committed monogamous relationship where they tell their partner what they have longed to do sexually for years and never been able to trust anyone else to even say the words out loud to say it out loud and trust that their partner is not going to turn away from them in disgust.

Amanda Testa (19:13):

So powerful. I love this conversation and I'm so excited because I feel like I am kind of wanting to shift what I originally wanted to talk to you about because now when you're talking about this new science, I'm fascinated.

Emily Nagoski (19:24):

You introduced it with burnout and here I am talking about all the sex stuff at all,

Amanda Testa (19:27):

But it all connects. I know. Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (19:30):

Imagine trying to like, like go to a just safe enough place when you're feeling overwhelmed and exhausted and stressed out by, you know, there's a pandemic like just safe enough is different in this context than just safe enough in a context where, you know, you can walk down the street without wearing a mask and worrying about whether anyone's got a potentially deadly virus.

Amanda Testa (19:52):

Right. That's a really different context. Exactly. And I think everyone's living with a little bit more stress level than they might even realize because of the pandemic. Heck yeah. So that's a big thing. But I also, we can come back to that in a minute, but I want to dive in. You know, when you mentioned that how much things have changed since you wrote Come As You are and the science, how it's rapidly changing. I'm curious, what is something else that was surprising to you that changed?

Emily Nagoski (20:22):

Peggy Kleinplatz's research was a very big part of rewriting the desire chapter. But I also did a whole lot of work on the last chapter, which is about Metta feelings or how you feel about how you feel. One of the things I say is that I teach women to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies, and so when I was saying that in a classroom one time a student raised their hand and said, Emily, could you be more precisely as, could you define your terms? What do you mean when you say confidence and joy? I was like, ah, that's a real good question. Let me get back to ya. So I thought about it and I read some things and I came back and I said, okay, so confidence, it comes from knowing what is true about your sexuality.

Emily Nagoski (21:06):

It is knowing about like the dual control model. It's knowing about responsive desire. It's knowing about like the cultural messages that you absorbed in your early life. It's knowing what's true about your body, even if it's not what you wish were true, even if it's not what somebody told you should be true. Knowing what is true. That's where confidence comes from. Joy is the hard part and joy is loving what is true about your sexuality and your body even when it's not what you were taught should be true, even if it's not what you wish were true. Knowing what is true and welcoming it with an open, loving heart. That is where sexual joy comes from and more work has been done in understanding the impact not just of self compassion practices, but of the mutuality, this, this dynamic interplay between partners when it comes to creating joy. When you can show up authentically as you are and be received with the warmth and compassion that we're all born deserving. But particularly in terms of our sexuality, we are so rarely able to receive because we're also scared and like tender and delicate and fearful around our sexualities. When we can take that leap into full vulnerability and our partners just there for us, that is where joy explodes. And that's where chapter nine went. Hmm, wow. Yeah. That full vulnerability piece when piece of cake, right?

Amanda Testa (22:50):

And so as people, you know, lean into that a little more or want to play with trying to have more of that, what are some things they can do to be more vulnerable or to even approach that with their partner if that's something that they don't, you know, they don't ever talk about.

Emily Nagoski (23:07):

Yeah, I mean the first step is very often having a conversation about it before you even do anything. Because the conver, and I know, especially when I talk to young people, people who are early in their sort of sexual self exploration, it can be easier just to do sexual things than it is to talk about it. But the talking about it is so often the starting place where you have a conversation and you set the frame of like, look, this is something I've been thinking about and I've rarely talked about it to anyone because I have all this worry that if I tell someone what's going on, they're going to react negatively. So this is me sharing with you a thing that I feel worried you're not gonna be welcoming of. So I'm going to ask you just to stay really neutral. I'm gonna say this thing and you're just going to go umhum, and then be silent for 15 seconds. Can we try that? Right? Like set the stage and what you can say could be anything from, I've always wanted to try handcuffs too. I'm so exhausted and overwhelmed these days that I haven't had a sexual thought much less masturbated for three months.

Amanda Testa (24:18):

Yeah. And I think that is such a good practice that you just shared practicing what a neutral. Let's just have a neutral experience with something. Right, because that could be even hard.

Emily Nagoski (24:30):

Yeah. Cause it's also, especially if you're talking to a partner, there's a whole other level of stakes because when you say something about your sexuality, you're not just saying something about your sexuality. It's also very often something about your shared sexual connection and Oh boy. Nobody ever wants to hear that. Like they're potentially failing at anything. Right? If you got the, like "it's a boy" masculine script. Part of the rules are you're supposed to already know everything. And for your partner to say anything about their sexual needs or desires automatically implies that you have failed because you didn't already know the thing. And so you have to act like you already knew everything. So that's one of the reasons why when folks have spectacular sex, it's not just that they don't learn tips, tricks, and techniques, they don't just learn different tongue motions. They learn an entirely different definition of what it means to be a man or a woman.

Amanda Testa (25:29):

Yeah. Important learnings. And you know, moving back easy,

Emily Nagoski (25:35):

It happens really fast. Well it, once you learn it, you never have to like do it again. You're done.

Amanda Testa (25:40):

So true. It is easy and it actually makes everyone feel so much better. And having that understanding, and I think, you know, bringing it back to what I was asking in the beginning, cause I thought this was such an interesting viewpoint of the human giver syndrome and why that comes into play often in relationships and you know, sexuality for sure.

Emily Nagoski (25:58):

Oh boy. Yeah. So Human Giver Syndrome. We bring this term from a very dark but pretty short book by a moral philosopher named Kate Mann. The title of the book is Down Girl, The Logic Of Misogyny. If you have the stomach for it, highly recommended. But it is a book that talks a lot about sexual violence and misogyny. So it's not for everybody, but in it, Kate Mann posits a world where these two kinds of humans, there are human beings who have a moral obligation to be their full humanity. You can send the name. Human beings have to be their full humanity to be as competitive, acquisitive, and entitled as required in order to maximize their human beingness. And that's one group of humans. And then there's another group of humans, the human givers who have a moral obligation to give their full humanity, their time, their attention, their patients, their kindness, their bodies, their hopes and dreams.

Emily Nagoski (26:54):

Sometimes their lives sacrificed on the altar of someone else's comfort and convenience. So, so guess which one women are, it is of course not as simple as like men are the human beings and women are the human givers. That's just the cultural script that you get taught on the day you're born. But like I'm married to a cis hat dude who is a hundred percent human giver and it changes the structure of our relationship that both of us are givers. Like we're constantly monitoring each other's energy and trying to pay attention to each other and he will just like give and give and sacrifice everything. If we're not both paying close attention. And one of us is willing to be like, Hey, I noticed you're giving a whole lot and maybe maybe a, you need to like pay attention to you and how can we make sure we're meeting your needs too.

Emily Nagoski (27:42):

It's a really different dynamic if there's a human being and a human giver in a relationship together because then the human being just feels entitled to take anything to give her gifts. And the more the giver gives, the more the human being feels entitled to take. And so you have this really imbalanced relationship where one person is just happy to take everything and the other person is giving and giving and giving. And again, because this is a moral obligation to be pretty, happy, calm, generous, and attentive to the needs of others. If the human giver dares to violate their moral obligation, they deserve to be punished. And if there's no one around who will punish them, we'll just, we'll just go ahead and beat the crap out of ourselves, right?

Amanda Testa (28:25):

Hmm, yes. Hmm. Yeah, that just makes me, just feel like I'm sad and it's so true and my God, we, we do beat ourselves up so badly and you know,

Emily Nagoski (28:39):

We say the things to ourselves that we would never say to any other person.

Amanda Testa (28:43):

Right. And that just, I think it's under so wonderful for people to hear and understand like the origins of why we do that. Because you know, so many of the women that I talk to are just so hard on themselves and this burnout piece falls right into play. If you're just giving and giving and giving and you know, not ever giving yourself the opportunity to replenish or have your needs met and of course you're going to eventually run out, run out of things to give.

Emily Nagoski (29:13):

Right? And you're not allowed to get your needs met because what kind of selfish bitch are you to stop meeting other people's needs just to like be, you know, meet your basic bodily needs. How dare you.

Amanda Testa (29:25):

Right. Yeah. Right. You talked to that too. Like why and then when you noticed that maybe in yourself, like if you see someone and you're like, there is something I don't my about that person. It's probably this conditioning that you're unaware of.

Emily Nagoski (29:38):

Right? Cause it's not just that we beat ourselves up, it's so we also have reflexive judgment. Like here I am giving everything, I have to like force my body to conform to the culturally constructed aspirational beauty ideal. I am forcing myself to conform to a parenting ideal, into a work ideal, into a class ideal. And here's this other person walking around, not beating the shit out of herself and just going ahead and letting herself not conform to the ideal when every moment of my life is dedicated to forcing myself to do this. How dare she. And so we judge that person because they dare to accept and welcome themselves precisely as they are. And if we, if we do nothing else, if we can just notice that we do that and be like, don't at that point, like beat the crap out of yourself because you have that judgemental thought.

Emily Nagoski (30:28):

That's not the goal. The goal is just notice that and be like, Oh, right. That is, that's human giver syndrome, right? They're telling me to be judgmental of other human givers. And I know that it comes from the place of exhaustion because all of us givers are giving so extremely much all the time that we expect other human givers to show up and give everything they have for us also when we need it. That when a fellow human giver, like you're in a workplace situation and a fellow human giver says, no, I can't help you with that project. I have to go home at 4:30 to pick my kid up from whatever. Like we want to be like, that's great. You do, you have fun, and there's this part of our heart that goes, how dare you? How dare you protect your boundaries?

Emily Nagoski (31:17):

How dare you limit what you give here and to me, just so you can meet other obligations, how dare you? Or how dare, Oh, like nobody ever comes into work and says, I got nine hours of sleep last night and people are like, yeah, right on. No, somebody has to come in and be like, that's so good for you. Self care is really important. I was up until four a frosting, the cupcakes for Becky's birthday party, but good for you. Good for you. Oh my gosh. Yes. Can we change that culture? Can we change that so that when somebody says they got nine hours of sleep last night, we genuinely in our hearts are like high five.

Amanda Testa (31:56):

It's like, Oh, there's a possibility that that can happen for me.

Emily Nagoski (31:59):

Yeah. And it is beautiful and it's happening for her. And she didn't just do that by like deciding she did that because she has a structure in place where everyone around her agrees that her getting adequate sleep is necessary for her and for the household. And so she has help. She has support. It is not just that she like took care of herself is that she had everyone around her caring for her and agreeing that her wellbeing was part of the priority of a family.

Amanda Testa (32:34):

Yeah. And I think women, or anybody, The human givers sometimes don't realize that when they ask for what they need, the people around them will probably be supportive because I, there's one story of, you know, this woman hated cooking. She's like, I'm done cooking. And her family was like, yes, now we don't have to listen to you complain about it every single night. And they figured it out and she didn't have to cook anymore. But it was like the other people in the family just couldn't stand how she constantly complained about how much she hated it.

Emily Nagoski (33:04):

And there are so many ways that could have gone wrong. Right? Right. They could have been like, you know what if you hate it so much, just stop and how do you respond if somebody is like, if you hate it that much, just stop. No you can't stop because then you're a failure because you've got to do all the things. And if, if she had said like I hate it, I'm not going to do it. And they were like well then nobody, nobody's going to eat. And nobody was like there for her to like, cause that's a need that just has to get met. Like it has to get done by somebody. And it is so easy for a person who's been trained to be a human giver, just to assume that it's her job. And if she doesn't do it, no one will. And if anybody else does it in a way different from how she would then it is not adequate. Right. That's a big one. Yeah. One of the things that I, a very slightly snotty but also true is if you want it done your way, you'll have to do it yourself.

Amanda Testa (34:01):

Right.

Emily Nagoski (34:02):

But there's a huge freedom of having it done someone else's way cause it's done.

Amanda Testa (34:09):

Right. And that's a big process for a lot of people to get to that ability to let it be done. And you know, it's a, it's a growth curve. But the thing is is that once you realize how much freeing, how freeing it feels and what space it opens up for other things, it becomes more manageable. And it's, you know, I think sometimes when you look at these things and thinking they're these huge leaps, well there's little steps that you take along the way. So it's much more doable. Absolutely. Yes. It doesn't have to feel like this seems too hard to do. No. And that's what I love about your book. So you definitely need to check out Burnout if you have it because there's amazing step by step, you know, tools you can use.

Emily Nagoski (34:49):

That was a priority for us. Concrete, specific evidence-based, doable strategies that you can use. Like you're not gonna, we're not gonna change the world tomorrow. Like we're not going to end sexism, we're not going to end racism. We're not going to end the pandemic tomorrow, but we are going to develop specific practices we can use today to make today a little more tolerable, a little more manageable, a little more energy giving instead of emotionally energy draining, which will make it even easier for us to get through the next day, which would make it easier to get through the next day until we've got so much energy that we can all collaborate together to end sexism and racism and the pandemic

Amanda Testa (35:33):

And I, and that too. Once you have that help that, that mindset or have tools and can implement them, then there is more bit more capacity and yes, there is more mental health, which you know, definitely will help you have the better relationship and have more capacity to even have desire.

Emily Nagoski (35:50):

Oh God, yes. Yeah. It's much easier to have desire for sex when you're not constantly full of exhaustion and resentment about how exhausted you are. Yeah. There's a lot of stories, laundry shows up a lot in the people who have magnificent sex, their stories like getting the laundry finished, getting the dishes finished and it's not just about getting the laundry finished and getting the dishes finished. It's about like if your partner participates in that stuff and you share a household and that's part of your relationship. When your partner participates in that stuff with you, you get to feel like my partner is a hundred percent there for me and they understand what my needs are and we are here for each other and like that is by itself sexy. The whole chore play thing isn't about seeing your partner engaged in the labor. It's about the, my partner is showing up for me and my partner understands what the needs are and we trust each other enough to collaborate on these basic things that have to happen and like we're just, we're a team. It's us against the laundry.

Amanda Testa (36:58):

Yeah, that's important. And I love that cause it's.

Emily Nagoski (37:02):

It is silly? I can almost not tell.

Amanda Testa (37:04):

Well, I actually don't think so because for me, I know in my relationship I grew up in a very, in a very Southern home, so it was very much my mom was the giver. And I just remember when I was a kid thinking I will never marry a Southern man. I know that's terrible. But I was just like, I saw that didn't seem right to me. And so it was always a big important thing in my life to find a partner who was collaborative and I'm so grateful that my husband is like that and he is amazing. I mean he has his tasks and he is amazing with them and I have mine and when everything feels off balance we talk about it. But it does make our relationship so much better because I know that we're in it together. It's that connection piece. Like you say.

Emily Nagoski (37:51):

Skills around like chores and other household stuff are not identical to the skills that you need to communicate around sexual needs. But if you've got a good base foundation where you can talk about that stuff, that's the foundation to build from. Like, if you can't even talk about like sharing taken out the trash, how are you going to talk about, I didn't have an orgasm last night and I really wanted to have an orgasm. Yeah.

Amanda Testa (38:22):

And those conversations, if they feel really hard then you can always reach out for help if you need.

Emily Nagoski (38:28):

Absolutely. They are, they are hard. We have all been taught that like, Oh, it's that who we are as people can be measured by our orgasmicity or by our sexual performance. And so like, in a way that only some people are taught, their personhood, can be measured by the laundry and changing the sheets every week and getting the dishes done every day. Like only some of us tie our identity to those tasks, but pretty much everybody was lied to about how much it matters that they perform according to a sexual script. Right. Yeah. PS doesn't matter at all. It's not about that. Not conforming to the script is actually the way to set yourself free. Yes.

Amanda Testa (39:19):

I well I just so appreciate your wisdom and I feel like there's such so many gems here and I adore both of your books. And I'm curious, you mentioned that you were making some rewrites for Come As You Are. Do you have any I know with everything going on in the world right now, things are, are not quite moving the same speed they once were. So do you have an idea of when that might be coming out or still in the works?

Emily Nagoski (39:47):

The plan now is for it to come out next spring. So spring of 2021 it was originally scheduled to come out in the fall of 2020, but I actually feel really good about that change because in the fall, in October of 2020, what are we all going to be paying attention to? Just one thing, just the election. It would be really hard to sort of convince anybody to think about, you know, the science of sexuality in the midst of that. So I'm perfectly happy to have it be delayed into the spring when whatever happens happens and we can all begin to like figure out what our lives are gonna look like now. Right.

Amanda Testa (40:22):

And we'll really need to be having some good sexual connection.

Emily Nagoski (40:26):

Oh God yes. And like if we can't get to sexual connection and I want to make sure people do not feel pressured to like use this quarantine time as time to connect sexually. If you are too exhausted and overwhelmed to find sexuality inside you just like lie in bed with the person you share your life with and like cuddle and cry. That counts right now that is a hundred percent like meeting your basic bodily need for connection. And we're also in a place where we're like, if you have a partner and let's acknowledge that about one in three households in the United States is a solo person. So some people are like, I would love to have someone I could just like lie in bed and cry with. But if you are a quarantined with a partner and maybe also some kids, these might be the people you love most in the world, but a connection is a biological drive like hunger. And the thing is when you get really hungry it can get desperate and then you eat some food and then what happens is you get full and you're kind of done and you need to stop eating.

Emily Nagoski (41:33):

A lot of people are bumping into that wall of like, I am full on connection, really use some time by myself. So recognizing that the need for connection is an oscillation that's built into our bodies. We want to spend some time in deep connection with people and some time in like just shallow connection with people and some time by ourselves. Like you can acknowledge that and if your partner's like, I could use some time alone, don't take that personally. That's not a rejection. That's just their basic biological need of being like, I am full. I do not need any more pizza. I have had enough pizza. I would like to go lie down and have a nap because of all the pizza. I hate connection. Feels like that too.

Amanda Testa (42:16):

Oh yes. I feel that the alone time need has been big for me lately, especially this past week. So I've had lots of early morning solo walks. Which have been life saving.

Emily Nagoski (42:26):

That's a wonderful, yeah.

Amanda Testa (42:28):

So I'm curious, is there any question that you wished I would have asked that I did not? Any the last words you'd like to share?

Emily Nagoski (42:38):

Oh, that's a really good question. I think I got to talk about all the things that are super top of mind. I'm in the brain space. I don't know if you've experienced this too, but so I want to say this. Okay. So in the beginning of burnout, Amelia and I talk about this a very simple study that some researchers did where they had college students do little mazes just on a piece of paper with a pen, just sort of go through this maze. And there's an illustration of a mouse in the middle. And on some of the mazes there's an illustration of a cheese over on the side. And in some on some mazes there's an illustration of an owl. Over on the other side. And the idea is, are you moving toward the cheese or you're trying to get away from the owl.

Emily Nagoski (43:23):

And it turns out that the students who were doing the cheese mazes completed more, mazes faster and made fewer mistakes and the people than the students who had the owl mazes. Now these are, these are very cartoonish. They're black and white line drawings. This is like the cheese is not this like very motivating, appealing goal. And the owl is not this very scary threatening threat. It's just draw lines on a piece of paper. But even with this tiny suggestion of like, are you moving towards something that matters to you or are you trying to avoid something that's dangerous? Even then the people who are moving toward the cheese do better. So my experience of the pandemic and quarantine and all that stuff is that the owl in my life is like 14 feet tall and just like camped out in my backyard.

Emily Nagoski (44:16):

So this is how I live now is with this 14 foot owl camped out in my backyard. And it's really hard to keep my eye on the cheese even though getting toward the cheese is how I'm like make my life worth living. So I would say the only thing been on my mind lately that I haven't said yet is I want to create space for people to normalize the power of living in a context where the threat is just sort of diffuse and everywhere. It really is an enormous cognitive and emotional load that we're walking around with. It makes everything just a little bit more difficult. But if we can remember what the cheese is and everyday do something or other that draws us, gives us a sense of connection with what Amelia and I call a your "something larger" to make meaning you engage with something larger than yourself. That's how you make meaning. So if you know what your something larger is and you can engage with it, whatever that takes, that will make it that little bit easier each day to tolerate having a, yeah. 14 foot owl your backyard. Sometimes the analogies get super silly.

Amanda Testa (45:30):

That makes so much sense though. And I can relate so much to that. But that's such a beautiful, beautiful advice to just, you know, do one little thing to remind yourself of the cheese. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Nagoski (45:43):

Because it has to be worth it. Like there's a, has to be a reason why you're tolerating living with this owl in your backyard. There's nothing you can do about the owl much. Like we can do little tiny things to defeat the owl. Mostly it's about like living your life even though the owl is there.

Amanda Testa (45:59):

Yeah. Thank you so, so much. I so appreciate your wisdom and always the science. So it's been a pleasure. Pleasure talking with you again Emily. Thank you so much. Thank you. And everyone who wants to connect with you and learn more about you. Definitely. her books are amazing. Come as you are and Burnout. And where else can people connect with you?

Emily Nagoski (46:25):

The main thing I'm doing in terms of like being available on the internet, Amelia and I are making a podcast that we call The Feminist Survival Project 2020. Uback in the summer of 2019. I looked forward to 2020 and I was like, it's going to be a hellscape. What can I do? And making a podcast with Amelia about evidence based strategies for tolerating the hellscape,uwas the whole point of the podcast. And I have turned out to be way righter than I ever wanted to be. Uso I hope people will listen to it. Umaking it is part of me staying connected with my cheese.

Amanda Testa (47:02):

Oh, I am so excited to check that out. Amazing. I'll put those, all this good stuff in the show notes too so everyone can find that. And as always, thank you so much for tuning in and thank you again for being a guest. Emily. My pleasure. Everyone. Have a beautiful day and we will see you next week.