JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Dr. Rose Schlaff (she/her) is a Pelvic Physical Therapist, Sexual Health Coach and the Founder and CEO of Be Well with Rose, LLC. She is passionate about helping women and queer leaders take the stress out of sex so they can feel energized and excited during intimacy and connect more deeply in all areas of their relationship. 

Dr. Rose utilizes simple evidence-based practices based on sexy science to amplify your desire and arousal, so you can feel confident, connected, and carefree in your relationship in and out of the bedroom. 

In addition to her virtual sex coaching practice, she is a guest lecturer for the University of Michigan’s Human Sexuality Certificate program, San Diego State University’s Marriage and Family Therapy Sexuality and Intimacy course, and has had the opportunity to lecture internationally on the topic of women's sexual and pelvic health in Beijing, China. 

Connect with her HERE.   Follow her on insta HERE. And grab her guide, Let's Talk About Sex, and it's a fill-in-the-blank MadLibs-style guide, HERE.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

If you've been interested in learning more about coaching with Amanda, she's now booking coaching clients for 1-1 support in creating the relationship and orgasmic pleasure of their dreams.   If you’ve been thinking about it, maybe we should talk!  Link here to book a free call to see if we’re a fit. 

EPISODE 213: with Dr. Rose

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

If you’re ever really exhausted at the end of a long day and you really want to go from turned off to turn on, then you're gonna love this week’s podcast because if you're looking to find more ways to amplify your desire and arousal, you're gonna want to listen in as this week on the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast I have the pleasure of talking with Dr. Rose Schlaff. She is a pelvic floor PT, sexual health coach, as well as the founder and CEO of Be Well With Rose. She is very passionate about helping women and queer leaders take the stress out of sex so they can feel energized and excited during intimacy and connect more deeply in all areas of their relationship.

So welcome, welcome, Dr. Rose. I’m so happy you're here.

0:01:02

Dr. Rose: Yes! I’m so happy to be here.

Amanda Testa: I always love to start with kind of learning a little bit about the journey that you've been on with this work because I know you have been doing this for a while. Would you share a little bit more about kind of what led you on this path?

Dr. Rose: Oh, my gosh, absolutely. I get this question all the time, as I’m sure you do too. [Laughs] Right, like how the heck did you get here? So I’ve always been that go-to friend that people share things with, you know? “Oh, I’ve never told anyone about this,” or, “Oh, my gosh, this might be too much information, but I just don't know who else to talk to,” and that’s always been my superpower is making things that are traditionally un-talk-about-able feel really safe and comfortable and fun and easy.

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Dr. Rose: So I loved those conversations that I was having in my personal life, and, professionally, I found my way to physical therapy because my mom has a disability. 

0:02:08

I saw after many, many, many encounters with her amazing physical therapist, how profound and understanding the human body can be, how much pain and pleasure in the day-to-day life, right -- not even from a sexual standpoint -- but moving better, feeling better, how much can be accomplished without medication with physical therapy which, really, was like magic in my eyes. So I felt like I had these two parts of me that were okay, I have this part that likes talking about sensitive things. I have this part that wants, really deeply, to understand the human body, and I figured out that pelvic floor physical therapy was a thing.

So I was like oh, this is perfect! I can still have all this knowledge of the human body, still have all this knowledge about pain and pleasure from a physiological standpoint and also I can treat the muscles of the pelvis. 

0:03:07

So I’m talking all day about pee, poop, and sex which are very sensitive topics. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Dr. Rose: You know, I loved the work that I was doing. It’s different than the work I’m doing now a bit because I’ve gone through my own journey. I was in an incredible facility, a biopsychosocial approach. We had myself, a sex therapist, a sexual medicine physician all evaluating and treating the same people. I was learning a ton from this approach, and I also, at the same time, was really struggling deeply with my own health. I had pretty intense anxiety for the first time in my life. I was having panic attacks. I’m a life-long extrovert over here, and I was feeling really drained, depleted by my human interactions both with my patients but also with my partner. I felt this disconnect. 

0:04:10

I didn't really know what was going on, so I went to the doctor. We figured out I had a big hormonal imbalance in my thyroid that was creating heart palpitations, panic attacks, all the things that I was experiencing. So my nerdy physical-therapy brain was like oh, good, it’s a physiological issue. Let’s just address these hormones and get me back to normal. 

You know, I worked with that endocrinologist for about a year and a half, and it got a little better. During that time, I was working with a therapist because practice what you preach. I was working in a biopsychosocial model. I knew that, even though it started as a hormonal imbalance, there were still psychological impacts of that, and that helped a little bit but I still, at the end of the year, felt pretty out of control of my body, felt really disconnected to my body, disconnected to people around me, and was just struggling to connect and enjoy my life like I had been prior to this experience. 

0:05:15

I remember sitting in that endocrinologist’s office, and he had this big look on his face, and he was like, “Congratulations, your numbers are normal!” It was the biggest gut-punch that I ever could have gotten because it felt, in that moment, like the medical system, the system that I had invested all of my time becoming a part of -- at this point, I had a doctorate in physical therapy and had been practicing -- I really felt like it had failed me. I didn't really know where to go next. I was like I tried therapy, I tried hormones, why aren’t I feeling better, and that’s when I really went on a journey of self-discovery. 

It took me a couple different places, but one was functional nutrition, one was coaching, and what really came out of this was identifying that I wasn't looking at myself in the system. 

0:06:14

I think that a lot of us, as individuals, just identify with traits that have truly been socialized into us. Everyone who is socialized as female, or most people anyways, have been socialized to care deeply for others, have been socialized to put others' needs ahead of our own, have been socialized to be perfect, right? We have to be perfect to be worthy of the same jobs, the same pay, right? There's still a big pay gap. And so, I was really identifying these things as my personality, right? "Oh, I'm just so caring. I'm just a perfectionist. I care so deeply," and, really, what I started to recognize was these are all products of the systems that we're raised in, and when I started having these conversations with myself -- but also my patients, patients who were navigating pregnancy and postpartum, were navigating difficulty reconnecting to their bodies and their partners after their baby or throughout menopause or throughout a painful experience or trauma, when I was talking about these things, I noticed a bigger shift than when we were just addressing the physical, than when we were just seeing this kind of surface individual approach.

0:07:37

And so, for me, that really put me on the path of where I am today which is yes, addressing the physical aspects of what makes sex fun and makes it feel good in our body, feel pleasure in our body, feel connected to ourselves and to each other, but also what's going on in our society that creates a barrier for that, and how do we navigate the psychological issues that come from that? We all have mindset and physiological responses to these things that we've been raised in that may be happening behind the scenes. We may not even realize. 

0:08:18

So, really, my joy now is using my own personal struggle, my own journey of discovery to connect the dots instead of having so many different individuals that we go to and try to put the pieces together ourselves. I love putting the pieces together with my clients, and I love helping women and queer leaders take that stress and heaviness and disconnection out of life transitions and really create ease, joy, connection, fun. It should feel light, and it can feel light.

Amanda Testa: I love that, and I think there are so many listening that can relate. I know, so often, my clients share the same of, you know, going through the medical system and everything's checking out, but they still feel awful.

Dr. Rose: Yes!

Amanda Testa: But it's not, right? I know. 

0:09:07

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: It can be challenging to navigate those waters, and so, I love that the understanding that you've gained through your years of experience has led you to this place of being able to guide others.  

Dr. Rose: Yes, and it's so important to note I did have a physiological issue. I did have a massive hormonal imbalance which triggered this whole shift in my body, even when something starts as a physical issue, right?

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Dr. Rose: Like pregnancy or postpartum or even physical pain or endometriosis or menopause, even when something starts as a physical issue, there is this waterfall of other effects, and until we can address you as a whole, even if the physical is addressed, there may be secondary issues that are continuing to keep you stuck in that pattern, and that's what happened with me.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, the holistic approach is so key.

Dr. Rose: It is.

0:10:06

Amanda Testa: I think, too, like you were mentioning, so much of our structural system is set up on extraction and is just really not conducive to our health, not conducive to our health, right?. It can be really common that, especially leaders and people that are ambitious or anyone, really, that’s doing what they think they should do in the world -- it's often like you work hard, you give, you sacrifice yourself for others, all the things that you mentioned. And so, oftentimes, people might not necessarily connect the dots of -- oh, okay. So I appreciate that aspect too. 

You mentioned, too, you work a lot with leaders. This is a question that I thought would be interesting 'cause I think, like you say, the holistic view is so important, but oftentimes we are very good at segmenting things in our life.

Dr. Rose: Right. Mm-hmm.

0:11:00

Amanda Testa: We segment work, then we segment family life, then we segment parenting, and then we segment our relationship, then we segment our sex life, but really, it all is so intertwined.

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Right?

Dr. Rose: It is.

Amanda Testa: And so, I'm curious, from your perspective, what might your pelvic floor and your professional success have in common?

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: How do they affect each other?

Dr. Rose: Yes, absolutely. I think this is so important to note because they are all interconnected, and the way you do one thing is often mirrored in the way you do many things. So, for me, prior to my experience, I was showing up. I was at a world-renowned facility. I was in a really high-level place in my career, and the energy behind it was very different than the energy that I bring now. [Laughs] 

0:12:00

So I think a lot of the time we learn how to play the game that's set ahead of us for what we've learned we have to do in society to be successful, and we do it. We check the boxes. We learn how to be a leader. We learn how to lead our team. We learn how to be there for our family, for our friends, and we've gotten very good at that, but what I see happen is there's this disconnect between this high-achieving, everywhere else in your life -- sometimes I say you're a badass everywhere else in your life, but then your sex life is kind of this dirty little secret where you feel like you're not quite hitting the mark or not quite feeling like you could or should be feeling, and it feels out of alignment because you're used to being really, really great in most areas of your life and setting your goals and achieving them.

0:13:04

So what I see is because we've learned okay, this doesn’t really matter for the rest of my life, I can deal with that later, it often comes last on the list. When I work with people, when we start bringing pleasure -- it's not just about sex, right? Pleasure could be and should be laced throughout your entire life.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Dr. Rose: And when we start bringing pleasure and we start practicing the things that I think make sex and intimacy the most fun like asking -- asking for what you desire, checking in with yourself and identifying what do I even want, what do I even need, asking for those things to mean that, the practice of receiving (that is so difficult, oh, my gosh, especially people socialized as female -- wow, it is so much easier for us to give than receive), the practice of receiving, the practice of being present while you're receiving, not thinking how you're going to reciprocate or give back -- all of these tools that we use to make sex more fun, to make intimacy feel better are things that, when we start to embrace them in this area, bleed out to the rest of our life and we're able to ask for what we need professionally, in our family, in our friendships. 

0:14:34

We're able to identify our desires more clearly. A lot of the time (this was certainly true for me) I felt like I was playing the game of life. It was like okay, get your doctorate. Okay, get this great job. Okay, buy the house. Okay, check, check, check, check, check. I've heard that reflected back from many of my clients of I've done the things, I've accomplished the goals, and, still, I feel something is missing, and I don’t know what I want, but I want something else.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

​​0:15:05

Dr. Rose: And so, that practice of connecting to your desires and identifying that can help you in every area of your life, and I've had clients who -- I was just talking to a client the other day who's a trauma therapist, herself, and she shared with me, "I'm a better trauma therapist now because I'm able to be present in my body and just be there with my clients without worrying so much about the give and take and what's happening and oh, my gosh, am I doing a good enough job,” or all the stories that run through our brain just like they run through our brain in the bedroom, [Laughs] they run through our brain outside the bedroom. So I think there is a huge connection and we can separate these things, and hey, if we're stressed in life, studies have shown when you're hooked up to an electromagnetic sensor and you're showed a scary movie, your shoulders and your pelvic floor are the first things to contract. 

0:16:12

So it's like if you're stressed, your pelvic floor is tense and tight. So it's the same with your nervous system and your whole body, and if you're relaxed and receiving, your pelvic floor is able to relax, rest, receive, enjoy. So it's connected physically, it's connected in our behavior in all areas.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think that is such a common thing especially for, like you say, people that are leaders or work hard, right? It's that go, go, go kind of collective spell that we have been taught, but it is. It's like that does inhibit that ability to kind of shift gears sometimes, right, because you're busy, leading your team, slanted at work, all the things, and then you come home and you're like [Snaps fingers twice]. It's hard to turn that off.

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

0:17:08

Amanda Testa: And so, I have a few questions about this, but before I ask you those, I'm curious -- and maybe this all goes together, but when you're feeling that tension and stress, obviously, it's a lot harder to relax. It's a lot harder to surrender (which is very important) and to be able to receive fully and to enjoy whatever experience you're in, whether that's at your board meeting or, you know, enjoying some delicious sex with your lover.

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: So I'm curious what would be some tips that you have to kind of relax the pelvic floor or kind of move into -- how do you turn off that desire to nonstop, to actually slow down and receive?

Dr. Rose: Yes, it's so hard to turn off "go" mode [Laughs] especially when we are so rewarded for it in our culture in every other area. So what I love to talk about is, two pieces. 

0:18:06

So the first piece is our breath is incredibly powerful for many reasons, but our pelvic floor and our diaphragm (which is the organ that we breathe with; it lives under our rib cage) work together like a piston and a car. So every time we breathe, if we are using our diaphragm, then our pelvic floor is moving. So as we breathe in, you'll notice because you can feel your rib cage expand left and right. You may feel some sensation in your belly or even lower all the way down to your pelvic floor. As you breathe in, your pelvic floor lowers and stretches and relaxes, and then as you breathe out, your pelvic floor contracts and lifts. This is so important because there's many different places that we can get stuck in our pelvis. 

So one, a lot of the time this go, go, go mentality, we're kind of ready, on. 

0:19:05

If you’ve ever noticed at the end of the day, like, "Oh, my gosh, my shoulders are so tense," or, "Oh, my gosh, I've totally been clenching my jaw," just noticing some tension in your body, there's a good chance that your pelvic floor might be holding onto that as well. So each breath that you do in this manner is allowing blood to flow through the pelvis. It's allowing your tissues to relax, release, and just kind of move. I always talk about this -- I don’t even know if this even applies to younger generations anymore -- cell phone arm or phone arm. You know, when you’ve been holding your phone up for a long time on a great conversation, and then you straighten your elbow for the first time after that, you're like oh, my god, my elbow is so sore, and you kind of have to do the Tin Man and shake it out a little bit, relax it. It's the same thing with breathing for our pelvic floor.

0:19:59

Another incredible piece of breathing is our respiratory organ (our diaphragm) has the vagus nerve which is our most important nerve for shifting into our restful nervous system. So our action-taking nervous system that we're in a lot of the day where we're taking action, we're making decisions, we're in this sympathetic fight and flight mode, and so, to just signify okay, I'm not in survival mode. I'm not taking action. I get to relax and shift into a different part of my night, that breathing can be really powerful to shift us. So that's the first part.

Then, the second part of this is really developing a system. I call it a sexy system or a ritual [Laughs] where you are actually telling your brain and body, "Hey, that part of our day is done. We are shifting now." This can look different for anyone, but some of my clients do this with a playlist. They'll just dance to a song. Some of my clients do this with a bath or a walk outside or a run or a shower or an eye-gazing activity with their partner or just three deep breaths together or a long hug, right? 

0:21:19

What are we telling our body? Okay, that part of our day is done. The next part is here, and I think during COVID this became even harder because, truly, many of us were working from home. I heard a lot of my clients say, "I'm drinking more frequently because that's the only thing that's telling my brain and body I'm not working anymore." And so, this is really important to have a ritual. Maybe you change your clothes. Maybe you do something else, but that ritual is important, especially if you work from home.

Amanda Testa: The rituals are so key. I love that. I always have a similar type of thing that we work with a lot of times. It's kind of similar to people here and there but, you know, that transition ritual is so key, and you can do it anytime, right?

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

0:22:06

Amanda Testa: The power of intention and ritual, I cannot say it enough, it's so key. Even, too, one of the things that works for myself and my husband is we, often, will just lay in bed for 15 minutes and just talk and connect and just let all the craziness dissolve.

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: One of the beautiful things about working from home, if your schedule so allows or I actually really try to make sure my schedule allows, is that there's time in the day that we can connect because that, sometimes, is the only time we have alone.

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: And so, it's really nice to make that time, but we also are very much in work-mode so we both need a okay, let's chill out for 15 minutes and just lay and chat, and then we feel much more in the mood.

Dr. Rose: Yes, I love that you shared that because I think that's also important to know. We've just been kind of taught that sex happens at night a lot of the time and we're like ah, I'm so tired or oh, I just did so much today, and maybe I do have a hard time shifting my brain at night, but I love that you and your partner both work from home so you have this flexibility, but also, maybe it's a weekend day. 

0:23:17

Maybe if you have kids you have your kids go on a playdate for a weekend day or, you know, getting creative with what are the best times for me where it's easiest for me to connect, where it's easiest for me to be present with my partner. That might be in the middle of your day, and it might be late at night for you. That might work, but just having permission to explore and knowing that there's no wrong time.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I love that too. One of the things I think is fun is, often, when you have kids I recommend doing the sexy Saturdays where okay, you go to your friends for three hours, then they come here for three hours, and you can do the swap, right?

Dr. Rose: Yes, exactly!

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] So that you can have some alone time with your partner. So I love that.

Okay, so now tell me some more about ways of shifting that into that more relaxed turn-off-the-work mode, get-into-the-sexy mode.

0:24:09

Dr. Rose: Mm-hmm, yes, so I think it's important to note that with responsive desire, it's a multi-part system, right? So we, first, need to decrease the stress and shift into that parasympathetic nervous system just like we were talking about, either with breathing and/or a ritual to shift your body, but we also need to be exposing ourselves to something that's a little bit sexy. The way that I describe this is say you had me over for lunch, and I had eaten a big breakfast. I wasn’t really hungry when I got to your house, but your cooking smells so good. Oh, my gosh, as soon as I start smelling your cooking, I'm like I've got to eat some of this food. It just smells way too good not to eat. [Laughs] I didn’t know I wanted it, I didn’t know I needed it, but now that I'm smelling it, I do. 

0:25:02

And so, every person will be triggered in different ways with responsive desire, but knowing your triggers, knowing your go-tos -- does that mean we're listening to sexy audio stories beforehand? Does that mean we're watching a sexy show together? Does that mean after our 15 minutes of down time where we just chat, maybe for 10 minutes we're just touching each other's legs and lower stomachs, just giving our bodies a chance to warm up to the idea of being aroused. 

I think, so often, we start -- okay, we've got 15 minutes in the middle of our workday. Let's go straight to the clitoris or straight to the money, and I think we're really doing ourselves a disservice by not allowing our nervous system to catch up. If we create space, even five minutes of space, it can make such a difference for how present we are to the touch, once we are doing direct genital touch or how much we're enjoying it and aroused during. We've all had that experience where we think we're gonna get into it faster than we do, and then we're kinda in it and we're like okay, this is good, but we know it could be better. That's not my desire for any of us. I think my desire for all of us is to be met with this ease and excitement and fun during every stage of connection, during every stage of intimacy. 

0:26:40

I really love playing -- I'm sure you know this game -- there's an incredible sex educator who developed a game called The Three-Minute Game. Basically, there is one giver, one receiver, and each person has two turns in that role. And so, when you're the receiver, you have one turn where you say, "This is how I'd like you to touch me," and then when the next turn comes, the giver gets to say, "I'd like to touch you like this," and there's discussion back and forth. Okay, yes, I'd love to touch your feet, but no, I don’t want to touch your big toe. Those just weird me out for whatever reason, but I'd love to touch your ankles instead, right? There's a discussion. I think sometimes people get overwhelmed even by four rounds of three minutes. That's 12 minutes of touch. What’s that gonna look like? Is it gonna be awkward? Where are we gonna go? Sometimes even starting with 30 seconds or 1 minutes, it's like 4 minutes to shift from go, go, go mode into, "Okay, we're touching. That feels good. Oh, my gosh, I haven’t had my hair touched in so long," or, "Oh, now that you're touching my back, I actually think I want you to touch my inner thigh. This actually feels really good." So just allowing your body and brain to catch up and be on the same page can be really beautiful.

0:28:11

Amanda Testa: I love that so much. That's Betty Martin. She's amazing. It's so true because there are numerous things, right? You might love to touch your partner in a certain way, but they might not like to receive it that way, right?

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: And you also need to be able to have those discussions like here's how you like to be touched. So you want to touch your partner the way they like to be touched and find out, also, when there is something that you want to do, what's the way you can do that in a way they enjoy, right? 

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: So often we don’t have those conversations, and sometimes you don’t necessarily want to talk, so just being in the process of the doing can help to put it into words, right, because you might not know how to verbalize it in the moment. That's why these games can be so helpful because it's a less-stress situation in a way, right? You're like we're gonna play a game.

0:29:02

Dr. Rose: Yeah, or we’ve got one minute on the clock. We probably can't mess this up, you know? [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Right, yes. I think that's fun, too, and I'd love for you to share a little bit -- I think, oftentimes, what can happen maybe is if you are in the cycle of things aren’t great in the bedroom, and then there's stress around it, and then there's that waterfall of things that happen that cascade to make you feel avoidant or have a lot of stress around sex, so what would be some ways you can kind of relieve some of that anxiety or stress about okay, this is gonna happen and ease into it with more fun and pleasure?

Dr. Rose: Yeah, absolutely. So there are so many different ways that we can do this, and it really depends on what level of stress, overwhelm, avoidance you're at. So, obviously, starting my career as a pelvic floor physical therapist, I worked a lot with people who were experiencing physical pain during penetration, and that level of fear surrounding sex is profound, and it's not uncommon. 

0:30:06

Seventy-five percent of people with vulvas have discomfort or pain with penetration at one time, and over thirty percent continue to have pain. So if you're listening to this, and you’ve ever felt discomfort, I want you to know you're not alone, but this is something that can shift. You don’t need to experience pain.

And so, something that can be really helpful when you're really at the end of this spectrum where you're just dreading sex or feeling really fearful about it, and maybe you once enjoyed it, but it's just gotten to a place where it feels so heavy, I really recommend taking sex off the table for a period of days. When I say sex, everyone's definition of sex is different. My definition of sex is very different than most people's. I don't define sex as penis and vagina or even orgasms at all. For me, sex is any time that we're together and touching or I'm alone and touching and feeling good, right? There doesn’t even need to be touch. It's just a connection with my body and my pleasure and my erotic nature.

0:31:19

So, for you, if sex looks a lot of different ways, maybe that's saying, "Okay, I love it when we hug, I love it when we cuddle, I love it when we kiss, but I notice that I'm feeling a lot of fear around penetration, and I would love for the next three weeks to take penetration off the table because my ultimate goal is for us to get back to a place where we're having more frequent intimacy and feeling really excited about it. And so, during that time, when we're taking penetration off the table, I would love for us to explore more external touch, and maybe we're playing the three-minute game, maybe we're not, but I want to create some times for us to explore together." 

0:32:08

And so, taking the pressure off penetration, taking the pressure off of orgasm, can be incredibly freeing, and also, we can create a space where it's like oh, that's easy. We have four minutes? Let's play the one-minute game. Okay, we did our homework for the week. We connected.

Amanda Testa: I love that. So key. Then, there's less pressure. I'm curious now -- 'cause it is true, you know? I know we've talked about this on the podcast around what to do when you have pelvic pain and how to seek out support, but oftentimes, there's multi-pronged approaches which is why you've got to look at the holistic view.

Dr. Rose: Mm-hmm.

Amanda Testa: And so, maybe if there isn’t pain, but there's just maybe discomfort or shame, even --

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: -- That can be a huge -- and that actually can present as physical pain.

Dr. Rose: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: So I'm wondering what might be some advice you have around that.

0:33:04

Dr. Rose: Yes, so I would say what I just said goes for anyone -- not just people with pain, but anyone who is feeling like sex has really become a chore. You're really feeling like it's a "should." You're feeling a lot of pressure to perform. You're feeling a lot of resentment about it. Although you wish you didn’t feel anger and resentment, you're starting to feel it creep in. That is a really good indication that we need to create a big boundary, and that boundary doesn’t need to last forever, but we need to create a boundary so that your nervous system can begin to feel safe again with connection. Whether it's taking penetration off the table for three weeks or taking all physical touch (outside of hand-holding and hugging) off the table for three weeks, those are options, but we can also decrease the pressure and stress by saying, "Okay, for the next three weeks I want to do an experiment. I want us to connect physically, and I want us to not create a goal towards orgasm. I want us just to connect physically and see what feels good." That's an option.

0:34:24

You can also -- I think there's a lot of pressure around initiation and, "Oh, my gosh, are they gonna ask me when I'm tired, and I'm tired of rejecting them, and I've rejected them three times already, so, gosh, I should just do this. You know, I should just do it," and we never want to push through that feeling. Although responsive desire exists, we have to at least feel an inkling of interest towards it, right? Just like the food example, "I smelled your food cooking, and then I got in the mood," but if I got there and you were like, "Eat the food! Eat the food!" I'd probably be like, "No, no matter how good that food feels, you're really shoving this food on me. That doesn’t sound good to me." So really being in touch with what feels good to you and what feels like a hell yes, even if it's a hell yes, I'm open to trying, and I can change my mind at any time. 

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

0:35:21

Dr. Rose: But, truly, identifying what part of this feels stressful. Is it the initiation part? Okay, then we decide my best hours to try this are Saturday mornings. Every other Saturday morning, we're gonna send our kids on a playdate, and every other Saturday morning, that's the time we connect, and outside of that Saturday morning time, we both know that it's off the table. So when you hold my hand, when you rub my shoulders, when you cuddle me, I can relax and now that this is just a cuddle. It's not for a purpose, for a next outcome. 

0:36:01

And so, that's another really beautiful way if you want to continue intimacy in your full spectrum but you just want to feel like you know exactly when it's coming so you don’t have to worry about it or you don’t have to worry if you're not on the same page. That's another great way to set a boundary.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I know in a little bit you're gonna share more about an awesome little fun, sexy MadLib you have around communication during sex and whatnot, but here's something that I hear a lot, and I know I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. Like you say, it's so important to be able to really honor what your body needs in the moment-to-moment and really being present moment-to-moment and being able to say no whenever you want to say no and have that respected or feel confident in saying the no without fear of, like you say, rejecting your partner. 

And so, I'm curious what some ways that you can share that? When you're in the action and you want to stop, it's totally okay, and a lot of times people are like, "Well, you know, I've already made it this far. Let's just, like, get it over with, whatever," which is really not a healthy thing to do for yourself because, in a way, you're overriding your own boundary, which we do. We're all human. We're gonna sometimes do that, but when you notice it happening all the time, that is when a lot of resentment and pain can build and all kinds of things. It's really important to speak that, and so, I'm curious what you could share around that. 

0:37:22

Dr. Rose: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really hard to say no, and it's really hard to say no when we've previously said yes. This is something we need to practice, and I find that sometimes a verbal no can be even harder. So sometimes just starting with a nonverbal cue of, "All right, I've noticed that sometimes I think that I'm gonna like something, and then when we get in it, it actually feels too sensitive or I actually notice that I'm not quite into it, but I have a hard time saying it when we're in the moment. 

0:38:02

Could we identify a hand signal or a word that could help me communicate that with you in a succinct way?" Because sometimes it's really the communication of it, of, like, “Oh, god, I'm gonna have to do this whole big explanation and then it's gonna take us out of the moment, and it's exhausting. Okay, I just would rather not.” So instead, having this discussion beforehand and saying, "All right, when I tap your shoulder or when I squeeze your upper-arm, right, whatever works for you or when I say 'mango,' that's when we know okay, we're gonna switch gears." 

Another thing that you can plan ahead of time is after that signal is given, what is the thing that always pretty much feels good? What's something that goes back to baseline? 

0:39:03

So it could be, "All right, when I give you this signal, I want to just come back to cuddling and eye-gazing, and then we can decide from there what we wanna do, but we might just end there." Actually explicitly getting that reassurance from your partner (of would you be disappointed if that happened or would that be okay) can be so freeing. We're not having these conversations, and inside our brain, we feel that heaviness of the fear of disappointing our partner, the fear of letting them down, and most of the time, our partner is like, "Oh, my god, of course, I wouldn’t want you to do anything that you don’t feel good with. Of course, it would be okay. Of course, I love cuddling you."

Another piece of this is if we have those times where we know okay, we're connecting back in, we have our ritual, there's not so much pressure on the few moments where we're intimate. It's like, of course, this was a great Saturday, and we're gonna try our next sexy Saturday.

0:40:12

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I think it's working through whatever might be standing in the way of you having those discussions, and you can do that. There's lots of tools or if you feel like you need more support, then that's available for you as well, but just knowing, oftentimes, when you can feel comfortable having those conversations, it's a huge celebration because it can allow there to be new connection in new ways. Oftentimes, especially if we've been in a partnership with someone for a while we might just assume, right, that they're gonna respond this way or assume this is what's gonna go down or assume X means Y.

Dr. Rose: Mm-hmm.

Amanda Testa: And so, it can be really hard to kind of step back and give the opportunity for new possibilities to bubble up.

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: But, like you say, most of the time our partners do want to please us, and they don’t want to be doing anything that's not enjoyed, right, and if you're not enjoying it, they probably know on some level, and they're not enjoying that either, right? 

Dr. Rose: Yeah, exactly.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] So yeah, it makes it good for everyone. Yeah.

Dr. Rose: Truly.

0:41:17

Amanda Testa: And so, I'm wondering, too -- I'd love to hear this perspective, because I know, oftentimes, when vulva owners in particular, can find ways to find more pleasure in their sexuality, it really does kind of amp up their confidence and their magnetism in all areas of life. I see this all the time, and I'm sure you do as well. 

Dr. Rose: Yes, yes.

Amanda Testa: So I'd love for you to speak, maybe, a little to that or what are some of the things that you see and why you think this work is so important, just for when you put the two and two together like oh, I never would have thought that enhancing my sexuality makes me more successful, but it really does. 

Dr. Rose: Yes.

Amanda Testa: I mean, I think that goes back to Think and Grow Rich with Napoleon Hill, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

0:41:59

Dr. Rose: It does. It does, and just like we are needing to practice all of these techniques, right, releasing the outcome of penetration or orgasm, just enjoying the process of connection, staying present in our bodies, feeling like we can say anything -- that courageousness that comes with practicing the no (even if it's a no that you previously said yes to). The confidence that you develop when you have shown your body, "Hey, I listen when you say no. It matters to me. Not only do I have the awareness, but I'm acting upon it, and I'm protecting you." That's huge. There's so many little micro nos that we encounter on a day-to-day basis. Just the nervous system stress that we undergo when that no feels really scary, when we feel really triggered by the thought of disappointing someone or oh, my gosh, what are they gonna think about me, and to have all that practice, it lessens the burden of those thoughts, but then, also, it lessens the burden of the secondary harm that's happening when we say yes and we mean no or we feel that sink in our stomach after, "Oh, sure, I'll pick you up from the airport. No problem… Oh, god, I actually -- why did I say that?

0:43:37

I could never say no now 'cause I already said yes,” and those moments, that's our precious energy. We're just reclaiming, little by little by little our, energy. We're honoring, little by little by little, our desires, our needs. That makes us so powerful and so magnetic. I know that we’ve been taught, I was taught, that the best thing you can do for other people is to bend over backwards and help them and do everything for them. 

0:44:11

I've learned over this time that the best thing I can do for other people is lead by example and show what's possible, honoring my pleasure, honoring my desires, honoring my nos, honoring my yesses. That, in and of itself, is humongously powerful, not just for you, but for the people around you, for your friends, for your family. Oh, my god, I've seen my entire family change since I've started this work years ago -- entire family.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, there's such potency in that and how it spreads around to everything that you touch, right?

Dr. Rose: Yes, no pun intended. [Laughs]

0:44:58

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Yes! Well, I feel like I could just keep talking with you, but I'm wondering, too, is there any questions that you wish I would have asked or any last things you'd like to make sure that you share?

Dr. Rose: Mm, great question. I think what I would love to share is if you're listening to this, I want you to know that there are so many things that we can do that feel fun and easy and can be easily incorporated on a daily basis to help you shift to a place where you do feel light, you do feel free, both in and out of the bedroom. If any of this resonated with you, I love to talk to people about this stuff. Please message me on Instagram @bewellwithrose. Please feel free to email me. I work with people one-on-one, in groups, in couples, and it's my joy. It is my joy to do this work, and even when I don’t work with people, I love seeing their journeys as they've discovered resources through me. 

0:46:11

I think we're not talking about sex enough in our society. We're not talking about pleasure enough in our society, and I think if you listen to Amanda's podcast, you are that person who is changing your system of friends, your system of work, your system of family. You're the one, and that change will ripple out from you, from everything you learn. If you are taking this information and you're like okay, I want to apply it, how does this apply to me, please reach out. I do free 15-minute phone calls, and even if we don’t work together, I love directing people to the right resources.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and also, I know you mentioned that you have a resource around communication that you were gonna share. So would you mind telling everyone where they can find that?

0:47:01

Dr. Rose: Yes, so I hear, all the time, "Oh, my gosh, where do I even start the conversation about sex? I just feel so awkward, I feel so uncomfortable. I don't know what to say." It's not fun. It feels really heavy, so I developed a resource that is meant to be fun. [Laughs] It's meant to be silly. You can do it solo (it's a great learning experience for you), but you can also do it with your partner. It creates this opportunity to just laugh and be silly together. If anything is awkward and weird, you can blame me. You can be like, "Oh, my god, this doctor who developed this is a weirdo!" You can laugh together. That's okay because sex gets to be silly. It gets to be fun. I want you to have that experience. So it's called Let's Talk About Sex, and it's a fill-in-the-blank MadLibs-style guide, and you can find that at www.bewellwithrose.com/talk.

0:48:06

Amanda Testa: Beautiful. Awesome, and I'll make sure to put that in the show notes as well and where everyone can connect with you. Thank you so much, again, for being here.

Dr. Rose: Yes, oh, my gosh, thank you for having me, and it's just a joy. We were talking before we started recording, we were like this is my favorite thing to do, so I'm totally in my pleasure right now!

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Dr. Rose: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Totally. I know, and just to really allow yourself to drop in and say, "Okay, what, out of this, was a nugget that I really want to hold onto," you know? "What was, maybe, something that I got from this episode that will be a support moving forward?" Hopefully, there were some resources that do help you feel less stress around sex, give you some more tools around transitioning from your busy day to, you know, a more relaxing and connecting evening with your partner or your loved ones, and also some great tools on communicating around sex.

Dr. Rose: Yes.

0:49:03 

Amanda Testa: So thank you so much, Dr. Rose.

Dr. Rose: Oh, my gosh, thank you, and please, let us know what your nuggets, what your takeaways are. Message us. I love hearing what's your action step after this, what are you gonna try? We're all sexy scientists. 

Amanda Testa: I love it. Sexy science. It's the best kind. [Laughs]

Dr. Rose: [Laughs] It is. It is.

Amanda Testa: Thank you all so much for listening. We will look forward to seeing you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. 

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. 

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Alyce Adams, RN, is an international expert in kegel exercises for women and she's helped thousands of women all over the world heal from pelvic organ problems such as prolapse, urinary incontinence, and much more.

After she became a mom, she suffered with saggy prolapse symptoms, leaking pee, and disappointing sex. 

Then, through a year of medical and scientific research, she uncovered the kegel secrets that completely solved those problems for her (and made her husband a very happy man).

Today, her mission is to expose the kegel exercise myths most women believe so they, too, can discover Real Kegels That Really Work™.

She’s already helped women in 19 countries around the world enjoy the life-changing benefits of the Kegel Queen Program: no diapers, no surgery, and mind-blowing sex.

Connect with her HERE!

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

If you've been interested in learning more about coaching with Amanda, I’m now booking coaching clients for 1-1 support in creating the relationship and orgasmic pleasure of their dreams.   If’ you’ve been thinking about it, maybe we should talk!  Link here to book a free call to see if we’re a fit. 

EPISODE 212: with Alyce Adams, AKA the Kegel Queen™

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Here's a question for you: are you looking to solve you pelvic pain or prevent pelvic health problems because one of the key things that we are gonna talk about today is avoiding the mistakes that are killing your vagina and how to optimize your sexual wellness. So kick back and relax as we dive in with a very special guest today. I'm so excited because I am welcoming Alyce Adams who is a registered nurse AKA The Kegel Queen, and we're gonna drop into what to do around your pelvic health.

One of the facts that I found so fascinating is that millions of women suffer with vaginal prolapse, up to half of all women over fifty years old, and one in five US women will have dangerous surgery to treat this condition. So the good news is, this doesn’t have to happen to you or someone you love. So we're gonna dive into all this today.

0:01:15

Welcome, Alyce, thank you so much for being here today!

Kegel Queen: Thank you, Amanda! I am super excited to help women get their feminine fire cranked up.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love it! I think we both share that big passion for trying to do things in ways that are safe and simple and healthy without having to resort to surgery or drugs or all the things. Granted, we are in a beautiful society where things are there when we need them, but often, we don’t, but we just aren’t educated to know what our options are. So that's why I feel like this is so important to talk about.

Kegel Queen: Yes. Yes, and I think, to that point, if you kind of look at the two opposing polls of how conventional medicine can work or not work for us -- if you have a broken leg it's really great to be able to get it set, get the proper cast, maybe you need pins or something. 

0:02:10

On the flip side, if there's something that you could be doing for yourself such as avoiding pelvic surgery by doing Kegels (and some other things that we could talk about if you'd like), there's this tremendous feeling of power when you do it yourself. I think that there are physical risks, of course, with surgery, but I think that the psychological side of, "Something's wrong with me, therefore, I need to be unconscious, lie down, and have an expert with years of our pain knowledge I could never begin to duplicate -- have that person do something physical to me," it's a really, really different psychological and emotional outcome than if you say, "Okay, this is going on with me. What am I going to do for myself? How can I lift myself up? How can I do this awake and on my feet?" So yeah, not just the physical risk of surgery, I think, is a really important piece of this.

0:03:26

Amanda Testa: Yes, and I'm wondering, too, because I want to dive into more around what are some signs of pelvic distress, what people need to look out for, but also, I'd love just to start with you sharing a little bit of your story and why this is such a passion for you, if you don’t mind.

Kegel Queen: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Well, like so many people who become well-informed about various topics, it's because I had some problems that I needed to solve.

Kegel Queen: [Laughs] I have one child. I have a beautiful daughter who's almost 18 years old now, and she's just the greatest thing ever. Being pregnant was not the greatest thing ever, and I began my pregnancy by vomiting for about two months straight. By the end of that time, every time I threw up, I would pee wherever I was. 

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

0:04:30

Kegel Queen: For me, not even so much carrying a big heavy baby or giving birth, but to me it was this vomiting that really blew out my pelvic floor.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Kegel Queen: After she was born, I had, not just the sneeze-pee -- fortunately, I didn’t have a vomiting-pee [Laughs] because I wasn’t throwing up, but I had sneeze-pee. I had symptoms that I didn’t even know were signs of bladder prolapse. 

I felt like every time I took a step it was like there was a bowling ball kind of lunging down between my legs. I had this kinda "gotta pee" sensation. Anytime my bladder wasn’t totally empty, if I took a walk or something or if, heaven forbid, I should try to run or jump or something like that -- and I had problems with sex. I knew that intercourse didn’t have the same level of sensation that it had before.

0:05:35

Then, after some period of time, my husband told me that it didn’t have the same level of sensation for him, and it was such an emotional gut-punch for me to wonder if I was ever going to be the woman I had been before. If this conversation happened with a friend and I was offering someone comfort, I wouldn’t say to her, "You're damaged goods, baby," but that's how I felt. 

In that moment, I felt like holy cow, this really important part of me, this really important part of my body, and this really important part of my relationship, and this really important part of my spiritual life and just enjoying my body and my sexuality had changed.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

0:06:35

Kegel Queen: That's what really pushed me to take action. So I decided okay, I think Kegels are supposed to be good for that. Let's figure out how you do 'em, 'cause I'd heard some things, like we all have, but I never really looked into it. I looked all around the internet. I talked to friends, nurses, and everything I found was garbage. It was like a paragraph or a couple paragraphs, maybe, and there was one thing that said this, another thing said that. There was nothing consistent. There was nothing that seemed like it had any teeth to it whatsoever. So I thought okay, I'm a nurse, I'm kind of a nerd, and I'm gonna go figure this out.

0:07:24

So I spent a year -- I would drop my daughter (she was in preschool at the time) off at preschool and then walk down the road right there to the medical library at The University of Rochester. It's a very prestigious medical school there, and I just parked in the library reading research for months and months and months, and I pulled out all the stuff that works. I looked at, like, what are the ways to do Kegels that actually have been shown to work, and I compiled all the good stuff into a program that I could do as a busy mom without burning tons of time and brain power and bandwidth on it.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

0:08:11

Kegel Queen: I started doing this program. In the beginning, I could do very, very little, but after about two months -- almost exactly at two months, it was like everything changed. I felt strong. It was like overnight, all of a sudden, I had no more sneeze-pee, I had no more of the saggy sensations that I found out, only in doing my research, were indications of prolapse, and that was gone, and sex totally changed. I remember one specific incident where it was like oh, gosh, this seems really different. Is this different for you? Yes, it is.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Kegel Queen: That was a very happy day. So i t seemed really evident that this is a thing to share and this is something a lot of women could benefit from, and I taught a class in my living room to some friends and then started teaching. 

0:09:19

One of the surprises that happened was in the beginning, I was really talking a lot about incontinence because there's so much research about incontinence. There's research about prolapse, and there's certainly enough research to go on, but it's so much less. So I was really talking mostly to people about incontinence, and the first time somebody came into my program and said, "I had a surgery date, and I canceled it because I found you," the first time that happened it was like, [Deep breath in] "Maybe you shouldn’t be doing that! Are you sure that's okay?" Then as time went on, I began to understand that that was really a great thing, and now that's my favorite thing when women come into the program and they say, "I canceled my surgery because I found this." Because surgery may have a place, but where doctors put surgery for prolapse -- and we should probably talk about what prolapse is in a sec --

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes.

0:10:21

Kegel Queen: Some might be wondering, but if a woman goes to the doctor, and she has prolapse, generally speaking, unless she has a real outlier doctor, they say, "Let's do surgery," or, "Let's wait 'til it gets worse, and then do surgery," and that's it. That's the end of the conversation where surgery may have a place, but it should never be the first line treatment, and it should never be the only treatment that's recommended. 

So that's the thing that I really want to shout from the rooftops the most is anybody who has vaginal prolapse, don’t think surgery is the only thing that is possible for you.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love that, and just to back it up for a moment, maybe could you share a couple of the signs of prolapse or what that means for those who might not know?

0:11:21

Kegel Queen: Yes. Yeah, so when we're talking about vaginal prolapse or pelvic organ prolapse, the word "prolapse" just means that something in the body has shifted out of its proper position, and there are other kinds of prolapse. What we're talking about is vaginal prolapse or pelvic organ prolapse, meaning the uterus or the bladder or the rectum has slipped out of its proper position, and in the case of the uterus, it means the uterus is lower down in the vagina. Like if you go in with your fingers, you'd hit your cervix lower than you used to. With the bladder or rectum, that means there's a bulge in either the front or back wall of the vagina (depending on which organ that is). There's a bulge covered by the vaginal wall. It's that organ literally kind of hanging into the vagina. When it's severe, any of those organs can actually protrude out the vaginal opening, and sometimes it happens suddenly. 

0:12:23

Sometimes it happens in stages. It's not fun, and it's definitely something that needs attention. It needs a proper medical diagnosis so that you're sure what's going on, but before you just say, "Yeah, sure, surgery," there are other options.

So the bulge or the low cervix is the thing, and that can come along, and that's often accompanied by, people describe, like, a sagging or dragging sensation, I feel like I'm sitting on an orange, sometimes discomfort or aching. Pain, though, not really. Sometimes, if it's the rectum, maybe you have difficulty moving your bowels. If it's your bladder, maybe you have difficulty emptying your bladder. Usually, not pain though. Pain would be, generally, an indication that something else is going on.

0:13:23

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and so, once you kind of understand or have been diagnosed with prolapse, then let's talk about why Kegels. 

Kegel Queen: Sure.

Amanda Testa: Then, also, I'd love for you to share, too, why most people do them wrong. [Laughs]

Kegel Queen: [Laughs] Yes. So yeah, I'll just say, about doing Kegels wrong, it's amazing to me how many people talk about Kegels and how wrong they are. Holy cow, it's mind-blowing, really, and what else are we so wrong about that we don’t even realize?

So how Kegels can help is a couple of ways. So we're in just audio right now so you can't see my hand gestures, and you can see my little pelvic model here, but imagine that your pelvic floor -- your pelvic floor is the bowl of muscle and connective tissue. Those are the muscles you're working when you do Kegel exercises.

0:14:30

So the pelvic floor is a bowl of muscle and connective tissue, and these are the muscles you're exercising when you do Kegel exercises. If you could picture the pelvic floor as a bowl -- literally, it's a half a sphere. Just to totally over-simplify, it's a bowl, and your pelvic organs are supported from behind and below by this bowl (the pelvic floor), and then from the top and the sides by ligaments. So when the pelvic floor is too lax, it's too saggy, part of the support for your pelvic organs is not there. Also, when there's a gap in the pelvic floor (called the urogenital hiatus), it's normal, healthy, meant to be there. It's the gap in the muscle where the vagina and the urethra pass through, if that gap is enlarged, this can -- when your organs prolapse, they're literally falling through that gap.

0:15:35

So you need a couple ingredients for prolapse. One is (well, really, either one) either the ligaments aren’t doing their job properly or the pelvic floor isn’t doing its job properly or both. We can't do much about the ligaments. The pelvic floor, though, is muscles we can exercise and change. So when you do Kegels correctly (not if you do them wrong, but only if you do them correctly), you are building tone in the pelvic floor, you're making the pelvic floor more firm, you're making it thicker, and it's sitting higher up in the pelvis. So if you're imagining this hammock that supports your organs, then think of that hammock getting thicker and more firm and higher up. Those things all translate to better support.

0:16:27

The other piece is when you do Kegels correctly, the urogenital hiatus actually becomes smaller so there's a smaller gap in the muscle through which the organs can fall. Incidentally, there are many sex benefits of Kegels, and that's one of them. The pelvic floor is what gives the vagina its structure, and if the urogenital hiatus is large, that means there's not as much vaginal tone so by doing Kegels properly, thickening and firming the pelvic floor and decreasing the size of the urogenital hiatus, your vagina becomes more firm and tight. 

So we could definitely talk more about sex, and you probably want to. Just a wild guess.

Amanda Testa: Yes. 

Kegel Queen: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and can I back you up one second?

Kegel Queen: Yeah, sure.

Amanda Testa: This just makes me think of something too that I think is a fallacy, that I just want you to address really quick too as we fully move into that.

Kegel Queen: Sure.

0:17:37

Amanda Testa: Number one, I love how you are talking about the vaginal tone, right? 'Cause we want that tone, but we don’t want it too tight, right?

Kegel Queen: Exactly. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Because people will always be like -- you know, there's that horrible surgery where they sew the opening of the vagina a little tighter --

Kegel Queen: Oh, gosh.

Amanda Testa: -- you know?

Kegel Queen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Testa: Whatever they call it. The "mommy stitch." I don’t know what they call it.

Kegel Queen: Well, yeah, there are a lot of names for that. 

Amanda Testa: And no offense if that's happened to you -- what is it called?

Kegel Queen: I think they call it, sometimes, the “daddy stitch.”

Amanda Testa: Oh, yeah, but…

Kegel Queen: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: That's got so many problems already, and also no offense if that’s happened or if you’ve chosen that, but I've had a lot of clients that have had a lot of trouble with that.

Kegel Queen: Mm.

Amanda Testa: But also, you don’t want it tight, you want it toned. Maybe speak to that really quick.

0:18:19

Kegel Queen: Right. Yeah, so a well-functioning muscle is not one that's rock hard and contracted all the time. A healthy, functioning muscle is supple and stretchy and toned and firm. I always say, think about cats. If you’ve ever been petting a cat and you kind of dig in under the fur, along their spine you can feel their muscles, and they're not rock hard. They're squishy, but cats are strong. They are seriously strong. They can jump up on top of your counter, maybe the fridge even. You know, they're powerful, strong animals, and they're not tight and clenched. A tight, clenched muscle actually is weaker than a stretchy, supple muscle. 

Yes, a too tight pelvic floor is a huge problem, and that's one of the outcomes you can have of doing Kegels incorrectly. There are a lot of ways to do Kegels wrong and a lot of ways they don’t work. When you do them correctly, you shouldn't have risk for anything, but when you do them wrong, you are at risk for over-tightening, and it's a huge problem.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

0:19:36

Kegel Queen: Amanda, you asked about why so many people do Kegels wrong, and, honestly, it's kind of a big mystery to me why there's so much misinformation. Maybe it's just because it's about vaginas and people tend to -- their brain shorts out when you say the word "vagina" or something. I don’t know.

Amanda Testa: I love how you say that people's brains sometimes just -- you know, when it comes to the vagina, it's an important thing but, sadly, in our culture, it doesn’t get as much respect and talked about as it should. So I do feel like yeah, that's probably one of the reasons, but I'm curious also, too, perhaps, just the lack of being taught. You know, I think when I had my daughter, the midwives are really good because they actually worked with me, internally, to ensure that I was doing it properly, which I don’t think probably happens for many people. So yeah.

0:20:35

Kegel Queen: Right, well, and the thing is, too, even if you're moving the muscles correctly, there are so many other pieces to doing Kegels correctly.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Kegel Queen: Like, you could be moving your muscles correctly and totally end up with an over-tightened pelvic floor because you're doing too many or holding too long.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kegel Queen: I think, too (I'm not gonna name names), there's a particular school of childbirth education that has spread a lot of kind of bad Kegel information. I think that's one reason elevator Kegels -- I've looked, specifically, in the research for elevator Kegels by any name and that's the thing that's taught commonly in childbirth class where you start at the bottom, you slowly and gradually tighten to the top, whatever that exactly means, then you slowly and gradually let it go. 

0:21:37

Maybe that kind of thing could be potentially useful during sex, but any way of controlling your muscles and playing with them could be potentially beneficial for sex, but for therapeutic Kegels that are going to address pelvic floor problems like incontinence and prolapse, there is absolutely no research support for elevator Kegels. This is just one example.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and I'm wondering, too, what are some of the things you might be doing. If you think you're doing your Kegels, what might you be doing wrong? [Laughs]

Kegel Queen: Well, let's talk about the one perfect Kegel. Is this a good time to get into that?

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love that! Yes, please.

Kegel Queen: So the best way to convey how to do one really, really good Kegel is with what I call the movie star exercise. So you do it with me, Amanda. Listeners, please join in.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I will join.

0:22:44

Kegel Queen: So close your eyes and take a minute to think of your favorite movie star. This is somebody you'd really like to impress. I, generally, like to think of Denzel Washington at about age 40. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Kegel Queen: So eyes closed. You and Denzel or whoever are having dinner. You're in a quiet restaurant at an intimate table for two off in the corner. You're having a nice conversation, and this special person is right in the middle of telling you a revealing personal story. He or she is really opening up. It's an amazing moment, and all of a sudden you are struck with a sudden overpowering urge to pee and pass gas at the exact same time. So hold it in. Hold it in right now and give it everything you’ve got. You cannot ruin this moment. Squeeze as hard as you can and hold that squeeze. Now, relax those muscles completely. That's one good Kegel.

0:24:04

So just try that motion a couple times, and the relaxation, and make sure you end with fully, consciously relaxing the muscles. There are four pieces of that that are really, really important. First, you're squeezing the entire pelvic floor. The exercise was not you think you're gonna pee while you're having dinner with Denzel; the exercise is you think you're gonna pee and pass gas at the same time. The pelvic floor, the biggest muscles of the pelvic floor are called the levator ani muscles. That means, in Latin, "lifts the anus." So if you're practicing by stopping your stream of urine -- which, by the way, is fine to do but never, ever any more than once a week ever -- but if you're practicing by trying to stop your stream of urine and you're not also engaging the muscles around your anus, you're missing the boat. You’ve got to work your entire pelvic floor.

0:25:10

Another piece is maximum intensity squeezing, maximum intensity contraction. If you're doing one, two, three, four, like that kind of kind of pulsing Kegels that many women are taught to do, like, do 200 Kegels a day and they're gonna be like that, you're missing the boat. You need to do a high, maximum-intensity squeeze in order to engage the type two muscle fibers that are the ones you're working on developing to get the results that you want. Again, doing Kegels just for sex is different, and we can talk about that.

Third, you're holding that contraction. It's not just like one, two, three. Well, the problem with those one, two, three little ones, it's not maximum intensity and it's brief, so you want to do both a strong hold and a sustained hold, and then finally relaxing completely. It's absolutely vital that you begin and end your Kegel practice and follow every Kegel contraction with conscious, complete relaxation because having over-tight pelvic floor muscles, not only do they not work as well, but you can end up with muscle spasms that are really painful, you can end up with pain with intercourse. 

0:26:38

It's not good. So it's absolutely essential to prevent that over-tightening of the muscles, and we do that by using correct Kegel technique including conscious, deliberate, strong relaxation.

Amanda Testa: Beautiful.

Kegel Queen: So that's one, and there are so many Kegel myths that that come up against -- like Kegel devices. The whole red-light thing is another one that just drives me nuts. If you're doing Kegels whenever you get to a red light or whenever you're waiting in line (which is advice given out by many people including health professionals who ought to know better), you're not gonna do them. The whole scheduling thing is key. You can't just kind of whenever and whenever an opportunity comes up I'm gonna do it. 

0:27:33

Well, think about if you approached cleaning your house that way or the activities you do for making a living. Well, when an opportunity comes up, I'll do it. You're not gonna do it! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Yes, so you were saying the four keys -- okay, number one is squeezing the entire pelvic floor, making sure that you use maximum intensity, holding the contraction, and remind me, what did you say the fourth one was? Is that the timing?

Kegel Queen: Relaxing.

Amanda Testa: Oh, relaxing. Relaxing, yes. 

Kegel Queen: This is why you don’t want to do Kegels while you're driving.

Amanda Testa: That makes sense.

Kegel Queen: Because if you're multitasking at all, you are not fully able to relax, and that is key. I cannot stress that enough. 

Amanda Testa: I love that 'cause I did think I heard that too. Yeah, every time you're at a stop light -- yes, I did hear that.

Kegel Queen: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And so, I'm wondering -- obviously, you have your Kegels for prolapse, right?

Kegel Queen: Mm-hmm.

0:28:38

Amanda Testa: And then I know you also mentioned there's other Kegels or just in the benefits of certain types of Kegels for sexual pleasure or for sex, and so, I wonder if you might share a few tips around that if you don’t mind.

Kegel Queen: Absolutely. Absolutely! It would be my pleasure to do so. So therapeutic Kegels would be what's good for prolapse, for urinary incontinence, and for certain sex benefits. So therapeutic Kegels meaning a specific way, like, we just did that one particular way of using the pelvic floor. What that kind of Kegels can do for you sexually we'll talk about, and I want to also talk about some other things you can do with your pelvic floor for sex.

So therapeutic Kegels can benefit your sexual function and pleasure. Number one, we talked about what it can do for the structure of the vagina. We already talked about that. 

0:29:37

The other thing that's so powerful is that when you're doing therapeutic Kegels and the pelvic floor is thicker and more firm and accustomed to exercise, that means the pelvic floor is getting more and better circulation, not just while you're exercising but all the time. Just like any muscle in the body. If I work out and my biceps get bigger, they're getting more blood flow. Healthy circulation is one of the major, major keys -- as you know well, Amanda -- one of the major, major keys of healthy sexual function is having healthy circulation. Good circulation is an essential part of arousal and lubrication and orgasm. It is key. 

0:30:32

So that's one piece, and then the other piece is you can simply enjoy the sensations of your pelvic floor contracting and relaxing while you're engaged in sexual behavior of any kind. My favorite pelvic floor trick I call the "fire-it-up” move, and that is those little brief little pulsing Kegel contractions to maybe, like, I'm not necessarily in the mood, but I'd like to be, this can help. So while those little pulsing contractions aren’t going to do much for changing the structure of your pelvic floor -- maybe structure's not the right word, but changing the thickness and firmness and so forth, those little pulsing contractions aren’t gonna do much for that, but they will bring circulation in the moment. They will bring your attention to the pelvic floor.

0:31:36

Another thing, because your pelvic floor is part of your sexual anatomy (we didn’t even really get into this either), but your pelvic floor is right there where your genitals are. It's, like, right there. We've already talked about vaginal structure. Another piece is there is a pair of little muscles, called the bulbocavernosus muscles, that are literally attached to the clitoris. So I call it the amazing clitoris trick, that if you can learn to control those muscles -- and it's not fancy, it doesn’t have to be only those muscles or whatever, but your entire pelvic floor includes them -- but if you get good at using those muscles, you can actually move your clitoris back and forth, and that's toward and away from your nose, not side to side. If you can imagine what that could do for the level of stimulation you're receiving in various situations, that's a really powerful thing to do. 

0:32:46

Then simply just playing with the sensation of deliberately contracting or deliberately relaxing the pelvic floor during sex. Try it with high intensity. Try it with low intensity. Try it with little pulses. Try it for a sustained time. You can't do it wrong if it's just for fun, so just try it! Once you gain control, you may already have control of your pelvic floor, at least somewhat, and by just deliberately engaging that control, those sex benefits are things you could start having today. You're not going to have the sex benefits of 24/7 better circulation and firmer muscles and all that today. That takes weeks, but you may be able to have a better time the very next time you have sex simply by engaging the muscles with consciousness.

0:33:51

Amanda Testa: I think it's such a key thing to bring awareness and consciousness to because, often, we don’t think about this area, you know? I think it's like anything. I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but I do feel like we're very good at segmenting things in our lives just because that's what we've been taught, but yeah, we are holistic beings. All these parts of us are always here, always doing their thing whether we pay attention to them or not, so when we bring our awareness and our attention to things it really changes the consciousness. Like you say, you're aware. You can tune in a little more and be aware of what you're noticing.

0:34:30

Kegel Queen: Yes, absolutely. This is something that I really notice with women in my program. Women come in with a whole range of relationships with this part of the body, and I'm thinking of one woman who was an early member of my program years ago, (one of the first) and she told me, "I'm in my sixties," she says, "And I've never put my fingers in my vagina before." I've had another woman I'm thinking of who, I was on the phone with her, and she couldn’t say the word vagina. So many women are like I don’t know what's going on down there. I've never done this before. We really are trained from diapers, literally, specifically diapers, to ignore the sensations in this part of the body, and that's only the beginning. Then, we have so many moments of shame and trauma for so, so very many women. We have so many cultural and personal reasons that it may have been adaptive to cut off from that part of the body, and sometimes getting back in touch is a big deal.

0:36:07

Amanda Testa: It is a big deal, and I think that's why it's so important to talk about these things 'cause, you know, I see that all the time with women that are just very disconnected, and it's by no fault of our own. It's just that a lot of it is our culture, but the good news is if you desire to learn and to explore and to be an experimenter in this way, it can be so rewarding, right?

Kegel Queen: Yes, absolutely.

Amanda Testa: And just honoring the steps it might take to get there as well.

Kegel Queen: Yep. Yep, your body is there. Anytime you'd like to start asking it a few questions, it might not answer right away in a way you can hear, but it's there.

0:36:48

Amanda Testa: Yeah, yes. Ah, this is such great, amazing information. I just so appreciate all you've shared. You’ve shared so much around what are some of the things to look out for and why it can be beneficial to practice your own exercises and learning how to do them properly so you can avoid surgery, and also knowing there are alternatives to that. I always say, try what's the easiest first and see because it can often make such a huge difference.

Kegel Queen: And the safest.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, the safest, right, because I know, yes, there's a time and a place for surgery. Also, my husband's in healthcare, and he does a lot with avoiding surgery too because we don’t realize all the complications and everything else that can happen. Granted, yes, there's a time and a place for everything, but often, I think we aren’t given the options as women and we're not taught, really, as vulva owners, what options we have. So it's really important to take your health into your own hands and do your own research. 

0:37:48

Kegel Queen: Yes, and for us to talk with each other about it. 

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes.

Kegel Queen: Oh, my gosh. I wrote a whole blog about it. I know a pair of sisters who both had rectocele (a prolapsed rectum) for years, and they never told each other. These are not estranged. They live in the same town. They have holidays together. They hang out, but they never talked to each other about it. These are sisters! There's so much shame.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Kegel Queen: Women joke about urinary incontinence. It's a joke. Women, tragically, think oh, it's unavoidable, but with prolapse, there's this tremendous personal shame about it. 

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes.

Kegel Queen: Women do not talk to each other about what's going on.

0:38:37

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember I was at a women's event once -- which is one of the reasons I love doing groups because I feel like it never fails. Every time I do a group there's always the oh, my gosh, I thought it was just me remark, right?

Kegel Queen: Yes.

Amanda Testa: Well, in the US there's really poor postpartum care.

Kegel Queen: Oh, gosh.

Amanda Testa: And so, most people don’t even know what their options are. One woman started talking about how she was working with the pelvic floor PT, and it was life-changing, and then everyone was like, "Oh, I need to reach out to this person!" I was like, "Yes, we need to talk about these things!" [Laughs] Right? Because we don’t know what we don’t know, right? 

Kegel Queen: Right. Right, and even I, I mean, before I became The Kegel Queen, I was vagina-friendly. I was a nurse already. I left midwifery school to have my own baby, but it wasn’t as though I was not interested in vaginas or not familiar with vaginas, and still, when I had my own issues it felt really private to me, and I didn’t know anything about it. Crazy.

0:39:54

Amanda Testa: Yes, well, I appreciate you so much for sharing all this. I'm wondering if there's a question that you wished I would have asked that I didn’t or anything else important that you want to share. 

Kegel Queen: Well, you know, as I've said earlier, my big mission is for women to know prolapse doesn’t have to equal surgery. One thing we didn’t talk about, I just mentioned a little, but a really important thing about doing Kegels wrong is Kegel devices. These are questions I get so much. People are always talking about jade eggs and Ben Wa balls and vaginal weights and all different things you can put in your vagina to help you do Kegels. I would say these things are useful as an awareness tool like work with a jade egg or Ben Wa balls to experience sensations, but the very worst thing you can do as far as Kegel devices -- which are unnecessary and, also, I would say disempowering because it's an external thing where you really could do it just with your body better -- but one thing you really, really want to avoid with devices is anything that you're supposed to hold in your vagina and walk around with -- vaginal weights or even the natural weights like a jade egg or something -- if you're supposed to put them in and hold them in and do things vertically, not good. This is teaching your muscles to clench.

0:41:32

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kegel Queen: A clenched pelvic floor is just as uncomfortable as clenched shoulders or a clenched jaw, if not moreso.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kegel Queen: So we definitely want to avoid devices of all kinds, especially devices like that.

Amanda Testa: I appreciate you sharing that because, personally, I love a jade egg, but it has to be done in the right way. It's like a sex toy like anything else, right?

Kegel Queen: Right.

Amanda Testa: There are a lot of people out there teaching a lot of wrong things around it.

Kegel Queen: Oh, my gosh.

Amanda Testa: Like you said, walk around with it in and expect a miracle and this and that. No, there's a very specific process that is safe and beneficial for that awareness and kind of the sexual acts aspect, but definitely there's no miracle cure around these things. It's a practice, like you say, and I think a lot of times people want an Easy Button.

0:42:23

Kegel Queen: Of course, they do. 

Amanda Testa: Sometimes there's work to the Easy Button, right? That's what the beautiful thing is about the Kegel, right? It, when done properly, can be such a miracle-worker, right?

Kegel Queen: And you don't need to take off your pants to do it. 

Amanda Testa: Yes, exactly. You don't even take off your pants. Yes. So I'm wondering, too, I would love for you to share more about how people can work with you and learn about your program.

Kegel Queen: Sure.

Amanda Testa: If you don’t mind sharing a little about that.

Kegel Queen: Yeah, absolutely! So I know this podcast will be on the internet forever and ever. People will be listening for years to come. What I'm offering may change over time, so the best thing is to go to www.kegelqueen.com and you'll find out what's going on there. There's always gonna be info there that anyone can see and use. I have a blog. Currently, I have a free webinar. Over time, who knows what will change, but there will always (as long as kegelqueen.com exists) be information and education for you there. So I would just show up, see what's there, see what you want to do, and make sure you talk to your friends.

0:43:39

Amanda Testa: Yes, please! If this episode has supported you or given you an "aha," if there's anybody else that you think could benefit, please, please, please share. Thank you so much, again, for being here, Alyce. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you.

Kegel Queen: Thank you, Amanda. It's great fun for me.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and, again, I'll make sure to put in the show notes where you can find more and learn more about all the amazing Kegel Queen offerings and her amazing course which you can do from the comfort of your own home which is amazing. [Laughs] So thank you, thank you, again.

Kegel Queen: Yay! Thank you!

Amanda Testa: And thank you all for listening, and we will look forward to seeing you next week. Please, yes, if you have questions or anything else around the episode you can reach out to myself, you can reach out to Queen Alyce. We can help you out so please make sure to do so.

Kegel Queen: Yep. You can use the contact form on my website if you have questions for me.

0:44:35

Amanda Testa: Yes, all right, and we will look forward to seeing you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. 

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. 

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Carla Crivaro is a certified, trauma-informed, Sex, Love & Relationship Coach. She works with men and women to experience delicious sex, profound love and authentic relationships.  Here she shares more about the Forgotten Father.

Connect with her free community HERE.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

If you've been interested in learning more about coaching with Amanda, I’m now booking coaching clients for 1-1 support in creating the relationship and orgasmic pleasure of their dreams.   If’ you’ve been thinking about it, maybe we should talk!  Link here to book a free call to see if we’re a fit. 

EPISODE 211: with Carla Crivaro

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to the podcast! Today, I’m gonna be talking about something that I have not touched on the podcast in a long while, or maybe if ever, around, specifically, how birth and parenthood can affect how men feel sexually about their partners. I know that, often, I’m speaking from the women’s part of view, but I also think it's interesting to listen to some different perspectives as well -- to, perhaps, have more empathy in your relationship, or if maybe you're looking for additional support, that there are resources available.

Today, I’m going to be talking to Carla Crivaro. She is a certified trauma-informed sex, love, and relationship coach, and she is going to be sharing more about this phenomenon of -- now, tell me what you call it ‘cause I really think this is great, Carla.

0:01:05

Carla Crivaro: So, I call it The Forgotten Father.

Amanda Testa: Yes, The Forgotten Father, and I think this is a really important thing to note because, often times (we’ll get into this) when we become parents, yes, it is a total game changer in so many ways for everyone involved, and this will just be an interesting way to just kind of get some different perspectives. So welcome, Carla. I am so happy you're here today!

Carla Crivaro: Thank you, Amanda! Thank you for having me and for giving me the opportunity to speak to your audience as well.

Amanda Testa: Yes, of course.

Carla Crivaro: As you were saying literally a moment ago, we’ll be talking more about The Forgotten Father, but one of the biggest problems that I have working with men is, obviously, trying to speak to the men that need the support to actually come forward and ask for it, and quite often it’s normally the women in their life that say to them, “Hey, do you think maybe you would be best having some support around this, whether it’s health or emotional or mental?” So speaking to women about this -- and they can be looking out for the men in their community to see maybe whether the men in their lives might be, you know, The Forgotten Father.

0:02:07

Amanda Testa: Yes, and so, Carla, as we dive in, I’d love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about why you're so passionate around this particular topic.

Carla Crivaro: So, I would say, probably, one of the reasons that I’m so passionate about it was exploring my own dynamic, actually, with my relationship with my husband when we had children. It’s not something that, really, I noticed initially after having my first or even my second child, but really, when I started my own self-development path and exploring things like my own inner child and my own growth as a mother, my own growth as a wife as well and as a sexual being, did I then start to take a look at, you know, actually, what’s my husband going through, you know? I’ve had people, friends that I can talk to about what I’m experiencing. I have got the midwives, and in the UK, you have health visitors that come and visit you periodically after you've given birth.

0:03:00

I’ve got those people that come and talk to me. When I go for the baby check-ups at the general practitioner -- I know in The States you call them pediatricians and physicians. There was always someone somewhere checking in on me, and I started to actually think about the fact of where are men getting that support. 

Then, when I started doing coaching, I was speaking to men and starting to get male clients. I was noticing, actually, that there are quite a few men experiencing something that I felt possibly my husband had experienced, and that is when a child is born, the whole dynamic of the relationship changes. So what that means is, you know, the mother tends to be the one that gave birth. If they're breastfeeding, they're the ones that sort of need to be present for the baby, and a lot of their time and a lot of their energy and a lot of their effort is around looking after the baby. As a mother, you’ll know that when your baby is born and you're constantly having a small child attached to you, you can get a little bit touched-out and a little bit overwhelmed with too much physical touch, you know? That’s something I experienced myself.

0:04:09

The problem is for men, men don't have access as much to physical touch because if you take a look at young men (children and youth), as men are growing up, they’re constantly being given messages that, you know, they shouldn't be crying, they are detaching from intimacy, physical intimacy, emotional intimacy. So they become sort of left as an individual very much by themselves with nobody with whom they can express how they feel or even connect to on a physical level. Then, obviously, the partner comes along, and they have that connection. The issue is, obviously, when the baby comes along, that connection they have with their mother is influenced in a way that the man, more often than not, doesn't know how to ask for what he needs. He feels a certain amount of guilt asking for that. Also, you know, the mother also has her own needs and her own space as well, so it’s trying to understand how to manage that dynamic.

0:05:09

Quite often, what can happen is, because a lot of men aren't able to communicate, they tend to go in one of two different directions, generally. One of them is that they tend to become Mr. Nice Guy. So they will -- and I use Mr. Nice Guy with embedded commas because they will self-abandon and people-please and try and do absolutely everything possible that they can to be that good father because they do really want it, and they want that validation, and they want to be seen, and they want to be witnessed. So the way that they do that is by trying everything possible to make the other person happy but, obviously, in the process they're abandoning themselves.

In the other direction, you get men whose inner child displays as angry and resentful of the relationship that the partner now has with the child, and they sort of, in a way, become disconnected. 

0:06:00

What they might do is throw themselves into their work. So they work really, really late at night or they might start doing sports or being out in the evening to be away. They might be more defensive, be a little bit more on the attack (putting their partner down). All of this is actually from a place of being a child, because when you think of children and their behavior when they're not getting attention, they do either act in one of two ways. They try and do everything possible to get your attention in either supporting you in trying to do everything and make you like them or they act out. 

Men in the relationship behaving in that way, the problem is, as women -- and the way that I behaved to it as well (I’ll put my hand up there) was with frustration and just “grow up” and “I’m dealing with my problems, you sort your problems out.” Obviously, with the growth that we’ve experienced in our relationship, understanding each side of the story, now I can see the pain that my husband would have been going through and the problems that my clients come to me with and the problems that they're going through and how I support them with coming through it and coming to the other side of it.

0:07:14

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I just want to state, Carla, how this is such a great thing to talk about because anyone out there who’s a parent can probably relate to when you first have your first night alone with that baby, how, just in general, everything is hard, you know? Not only if you gave birth, physically, you're healing. You have all of that that you have to deal with. Your body is maybe in pain. It doesn't feel anything like it did before. You are exhausted. You are, like you say, touched-out, and then from another co-parent -- in this case we’re talking specifically to heterosexual relationships where there’s a man parent (a father) and how they can feel so neglected. I think this is really true because one thing we don't realize as a new parent (as a mom) is that, like you said earlier, we can be touched-out, but we’re getting a lot of that need met (the need of feeling connected), and you get all the oxytocin from your bonding with your baby, and then your partner can be really left out, and they can feel all these things. I think it’s interesting. Maybe if you can reflect in your own relationship what might be present.

0:08:20

The other thing that you said that I think is really important to note is that so often men are conditioned to not show any emotion, right? I love the documentary The Mask You Live In which you've probably seen, but basically, it just goes to show -- it’s a lot of research around how the number one acceptable emotion for men is anger and how much support the mom has. Granted, in The US it’s very poor. I wish it could be so much better, but there are at least some follow-up visits (one), but I think it’s so true. There’s not that same support for men. There are not those same groups, and even if there are, men aren’t as motivated to go out and find those or to know they need them, so they’ll find other ways to maybe stuff what they’re feeling.

0:09:00

Carla Crivaro: Yeah, and it’s exactly that. Yeah, I love the point that you brought to the fact -- anger. The thing is, people express anger in different ways. So you will get the Mr. Nice Guy. They will totally, you know, bury that anger and won’t allow themselves to express it, but they’re really feeling it inside. That can be they’re throwing themselves to be this perfect husband or their vision of what a perfect husband or partner or father is, but deep down there’s that resentment there because their needs aren’t being met as well. Then the anger that’s coming out with the man on the other side (on the attack and the defensive), the anger there is big frustration and probably passive aggressiveness and comments to maybe put down the mother. 

I see quite often in Facebook groups in the parenting groups (and they're specifically for mothers and the breastfeeding groups) how often women say, “You know, my husband doesn't want me to breastfeed ‘cause he wants to connect to the child,” and things like, “I’ve decided that I’m going to introduce solids like this, and my husband just doesn't get it all.” “I’ve tried to explain to my husband why I don’t want to smack our child, and he just doesn't get it.” 

0:10:10

I think, you know, one of the problems for the fathers is because the mothers are so involved with the child-rearing, they tend to also take a lot of decisions without actually involving the father at all. Really small things like presenting information, asking them what they think, and suggesting, “Do you think this is something interesting that we could try,” rather than bringing information and saying, “We’re doing it like this.” You know, enabling them to feel a little bit more involved in the child-rearing can actually really be supportive of them to feel like they have a role. One of the reasons being is so many men feel on the side lines. They feel like they're not actually part of the family anymore, and that they are just literally there to provide financially. 

One word that I hear used really often is loneliness because, you know, previously (pre-child) they would have that companionship, that physical part, they were able, probably, to talk a lot more than they ever have before. Then, all of a sudden, that’s gone, and it sort of can feel like it’s being taken from them as well. 

0:11:17

Not that it has, but that’s obviously the feeling. There is a huge amount of loneliness that men will experience and a great weight of responsibility. Responsibility of being, you know, more often than not, the breadwinner and also a huge responsibility of being the good mother and father because we talk so often now of what it means to be a good mother or a good father, you know? We’re given lots of information. There’s lots of messaging from media as well. 

So there’s so much pressure coming, also, at mothers. I want to make sure that people listening are aware that I am fully aware of the problems that mums have, and it’s not to take away from them at all. Obviously, today, we’re highlighting the fathers and what they're experiencing and the support that they might need as well.

0:12:04

Amanda Testa: Yeah, you know, and it’s interesting too, I think I read somewhere that a fifth of couples break up in the first 12 months after having a baby, and so, I think what would be so amazing was if there was a lot more support given to parents around here’s what to expect when you have a kid and here’s how to make sure that your relationship can go through this period of a transition and hardship.

And so, I’m curious for you, what are some of the ways that you feel like couples can move through this or what can they do to feel like both parties are being supported when they both have such huge needs at this time?

Carla Crivaro: Well, I work with men as individuals on this issue so what I can do is talk about how I would support men in the coaching, and women that are listening, I would say that if they recognize that their male partner might be experiencing this, then maybe invite them to listen to this podcast or seek a professional to support them (somebody like myself), or if it’s something that they need to process through, we go into things like trauma or therapy to get a suitable person that can help with that. 

0:13:18

Someone that they can explore independently, I think ,as well, is quite important just because a fear, for a lot of men, would be to talk really openly about how they feel and not feel judgment from their partner because they really do need to express what they’re saying because the men that come to me and talk to me have talked about things like feeling on the sidelines, losing desire for their partner after seeing them give birth, and I can talk a little bit about that a bit later. 

What I tend to do with clients is work a lot on their inner child. Amanda, did you want to explain what the inner child is? I imagine that you work with the inner child with your clients.

0:13:57

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I mean, I think this is a great concept because the inner child -- basically, we all have kind of the order of how we come into the world. Typically, when we are in the womb, no matter the relationship with the birth mother or whatnot, you are in that state of receptivity, right? You don't have to do anything. You're just receiving. Then, as soon as you're born into the world, you cry for your needs, you cry for things, and you maybe got that need met and maybe you didn't, and so, there’s all this attachment stuff that can come up. But also, we have these childlike aspects of ourselves, right? These childlike aspects of ourselves can often run the show, right? It’s a part of our subconscious, and it can pick up a lot of messages before you're even a verbal, before you’re even a verbal human, right, when you're a baby or when you're really young, but it can hold all kinds of things from the past. It can hold memories and beliefs and emotions and all kinds of things. Sometimes these pieces of us can get triggered in certain situations, right? 

And so, when these inner-child pieces come up, usually it’s because they're unmet needs that these younger parts of us need and didn't get met. And so, when we, as an adult, can consciously give those pieces what they need, then they're more likely to come into integration, and just like you were talking earlier about how a child behaves, this is true for our inner child, right? It can show up when we don't want it to, and it will really let its presence be known. [Giggles] But if you give it attention and love and care, then it’s going to be more calm and more integrated, right? I’d love to hear anything else you want to share about that. Please do!

0:15:41

Carla Crivaro: Yeah, so exploring the inner child, the relationship with the inner child, and how the inner child actually, quite often and more often than not, is the one leading the behavior and leading the thought processes and stories and also that reaction from the nervous system that’s automatic. 

0:16:00

So we tend to, as well, when we’ve been with somebody in a relationship for quite a while, we make assumptions on their behavior before they’ve even done it. Like, we create our own stories about the other person which means that it makes it difficult for them, in our eyes, to be able to change because you put them in a box, and this is the sort of person that they are. So you make assumptions. The moment that they say something to you, your inner child reacts and behaves automatically in that way. It responds, and then your partner, she will then come back at you from her inner child, and then you just end up both of you in this play of being triggered.

So being aware of the inner child and where it’s showing up in the relationship means that the client is, then, able to observe it and also stop it from actually moving forward and stop it from being in the relationship, basically. Also we invite the men to also observe their thought and observe their ego. So what are they making situations mean? That could look something like I am not considered in the relationship, I’m not good enough -- those words themselves might not be the specific words, but the general idea of the general theme tends to be things like I’m not considered, I’m not good enough, I’m not loved, I always do things wrong, that type of idea. 

0:17:22

When we have those stories about ourselves, we, then, have shame and we have a lot of shame around how other people are going to view our behavior and the way that we’re acting, but because it’s also automatic, it can be almost, in a way, embarrassing to notice that that’s what we’re doing, but also not being able to stop it as well.

So it brings an awareness to thoughts, to stories. Also, something that I have taught men who were being, in embedded commas, Mr. Nice Guy, things like boundaries and just being able to say things like, “No, don't speak to me like that,” ‘cause I do tend to get quite a lot of men whose partners will get really frustrated because they're not doing things the way that they should be doing or how they want them to do. So a lot of it is teaching them boundaries but also how to put boundaries into play in a way that’s non-confrontational which is supportive so it’s less likely to create the trigger of being a child from their partner.

0:18:22

Another thing, also, that I look at with men is embodying how they want to feel in their relationship, how they want to feel being in the relationship with their partner, what sort of ideas and sensations and high-vibe emotions would they like to bring into their relationship, and then behaving from that place instead of a place that’s wounded or laced.

So yes, those are sort of the main ways that I would support and help a man through that process, and I imagine, Amanda, when you're supporting women in their sexuality, those are the similar themes that women will be looking for support in as well.

Amanda Testa: Exactly, and, you know, one of the things, too, I just want to make sure we loop back to, because I think this is interesting, obviously, the birth process itself can be an amazing thing. It can also be quite traumatic for all parties involved sometimes too, and sometimes in those experiences, that can cause a lot of problems too, but I know you mentioned earlier around how sometimes men can be traumatized in witnessing birth, and so, I’m curious if you would speak to that. 

0:19:29

Carla Crivaro: Yeah, sure. So what I want to share here -- I really want to make women aware that it’s not about them and it’s not about their bodies or about who they are. So, you know, here, we’re looking at trauma and how the body itself reacts to a situation, and it’s not sort of a cognitive behavior. It’s literally the nervous system that is behaving from a primal place, a reptilian place almost. So I just want to set the scene a little bit just to give people an idea of what the mum might be experiencing.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Carla Crivaro: So if you imagine that a man is stood there. He’s watching everything unfold. He can see his partner in pain. She’s in labor. He really wants to do something, so he wants to help her in some way, but he’s not sure how or what because the medical professionals are talking to her, he’s never seen her like this, and he’s frightened. He doesn't know how to help her. His heart’s pounding, and he knows that this isn't about him, so he knows that he can’t ask for anything because he’s not the one giving birth, it’s his partner that’s giving birth, but all of this is happening to him as well, you know? He’s thinking to himself, “She’s the one that’s carrying the baby. She’s the one that’s going through the labor. I need to be here for her.”

0:20:44

His heart will be racing, but, you know, even though he’s experiencing all this emotion, it’s likely that his feet are bolted to the floor almost in shock. “What do I do? I don't know how to behave,” and he will probably feel trapped inside his own body as though he’s watching everything through someone else’s eyes, you know, almost like detached. Then, he probably, if it’s a vaginal birth, might see the baby actually coming out, and all of these emotions that he’s feeling in his body at that time all of the stress that he’s under, all of the fear, and all of those sensations and emotions that he’s feeling as he’s watching the baby being born, what that can do is it can -- his body needs to connect that experience to something, and his body needs to connect the experience to something because the body needs to remember what the situation was so that the mum doesn't enter into that situation again. 

0:21:40

So this is sort of, in a way, what you would consider a trauma response, and the body’s learning a behavior, learning a situation that it doesn't want to repeat. So it doesn't want to feel these emotions and these sensations again, so it attaches to the scenario and it could be the partner, it could be her vulva, it could be the baby, and he will, not always, but he can attach that trauma to the situation.

So what happens is, the baby’s born, everybody’s happy, and the guy’s there feeling all of these things. A few days pass, maybe a week or two, and he struggles to look at his partner in the way that he used to. Maybe a month or so down the line they try and have sex, and he’s unable to keep an erection or maybe he’s unable to hold his baby. 

0:22:32

What’s happening in those situations -- because the body has connected those sensations and that trauma, let’s say, to either the partner, the vulva, or the baby, what can happen is, the father is still in that trauma response and unable to pass through it because it’s a nervous system response, it’s a somatic response to the situation, so that requires, obviously, working through and releasing all of that somatic tension and stress to be able to pass through and get to the other side. That’s why I say it’s really not about the woman at all; it’s completely about the man and how his body has reacted to the situation.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and, I mean, I think that’s important to name that everybody’s unique experience is valid, and it’s just to realize when these things happen there are solutions, right? That’s the beauty. Once you're aware of something, then you can do something about it to bring your goals to fruition, right?

0:23:33

The last thing I’ll ask -- and then maybe if there’s time, one more question -- but I do want to know if maybe there is a tip or two you might share? Obviously, if one is finding this kind of residual traumatic experience in their body, feeling that they can always reach out to professionals like yourself, but also something that I do feel like you mentioned earlier that I think happens often, because often there is a -- I don't necessarily like the term mismatched libidos, but there’s that difference in desire in couples. Oftentimes, it is not the woman who doesn't want to have sex. It can be the man that loses desire, and I‘m wondering if you might speak to that, and maybe if there’s a tip that you can recommend for them to get that back.

0:24:13

Carla Crivaro: Yeah, of course. The very, very first thing that I would say is recognizing that your libido has dropped and just, first of all, giving yourself a massive hug and accepting that that’s happened, and that is perfectly fine, and it’s not forever. It doesn't need to be forever, and just sort of being with it and accepting it -- not accepting it in the sense of okay, I accept it, and I’m not going to do anything about it, but just being okay with that, okay with where you are at this moment in time. Then, with regards to returning to the libido, my feelings on this is returning to a self-pleasure practice that is really tuned into the body.

So the way that a lot of men tend to self-pleasure is, you know, goal oriented, ejaculation is the key, let’s get it over and done with as quickly as possible to get that release. So returning to the body, slowing everything right down, touching different parts of the body as well, and I know a lot of men feel uncomfortable doing this type of self-pleasure because they can feel it’s a little bit gay to touch themselves in that way, and they tend to use that term in quite a derogatory way. 

0:25:23

You know, there’s that fear of touching themselves that they might be considered homosexual, but my invitation is one, it doesn't mean that you're gay, and even if it does, that’s also not a problem, but when you're touching yourself, that you experience the touch that you're receiving. So, you know, if you're touching your arm, for example, that you’re feeling your arm being touched rather than your hand touching your arm. 

And so, bringing yourself back to that, slowing everything right down, what that will also do is when you begin, just start to feel certain emotions, maybe being with your partner, because you’re taking everything really, really slowly, any sensations that come up of discomfort, you're able to notice them rather than blocking them off or shutting them down. 

0:26:11

Being able to notice them means that, then, you can sit with them and allow them to move through you and to be expressed if they need to. If you’ve already explained to your partner what you’re doing and why, they will, I’m sure, be very, very supportive of helping you work through that, but yeah, that would be the way that I would suggest with regards to libido. Coming back to the body, slowing everything right down, then returning to pleasure and removing the goal of ejaculation or if they’re with the partner, removing the goal of orgasm and just really returning to the body and pleasure.

Amanda Testa: I love that, and I think it’s so key for everyone just to really tune into their sensations and be present to whatever is happening, right? So, so good.

So I’m wondering, Carla, if there is maybe a question that you wished that I would have asked that I didn't ask or anything else that you want to make sure to share?

0:27:12

Carla Crivaro: I would say, Amanda, that we have covered everything. I would like to let men know that I do have a community that I will be launching at the end of April that will be a space where we meet every week for 30 minutes, and then we’ll have the opportunity to meet other men and talk about their own experiences, and any men that come, they don't have to talk if they don't want to. They’re able to just be there, present, just to feel the support of other men in the same situation or similar situations ‘cause, obviously, we all have nuances to our own life situations and what we’re experiencing. Finding men in the community (the local community if possible, and if you're not able to find that, then obviously I have one that will be starting), will just make huge, massive shifts. It will make massive shifts in yourself, and also talking about it will enable other men to talk about it as well. I’m hoping it’s a conversation that gets started among men and not just sort of me having to speak to women. [Laughs] It’s a message to sort of filter through, so that’s my invitation to create that community because we heal best in community as well with the support of other people around us.

0:28:33

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Carla Crivaro: So, yeah, I definitely recommend that.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and there’s one last question that I have. For those who are listening and are thinking, you know what, I would love if my partner would get some support, and I’m not quite sure how to bring that up -- and I know you alluded to this quite a few times. You gave some tips, but maybe, you know, to have this conversation with your husband, what can they say? That’s always something I always hear, right? I’d love to hear your perspective about it ‘cause I’ve got some thoughts, but I’d love to hear how do you bring this up or how do you share this information for them to determine if they want to act on it or not?

Carla Crivaro: Yeah, so I would ask them how they feel. So how did they feel during the birth of the baby? What were the emotions that they felt? Do they remember how it felt in their body? Just taking a moment to close the eyes and going back to that scene can sometimes be enough for them to remember what they felt in their body and how they were feeling at that time. Asking them, you know, “How do you feel about your role as a partner?” “How do you feel in our relationship?” “Do you have any needs that you feel need to be met?” Working to understand what the emotions are and how they feel, and inviting them to tell you what they're feeling and experiencing, then I would say, “Okay, what you're feeling’s really normal,” because I has a woman from the UK talking about this concept of The Forgotten Father, and I think that that way would be so much more invitational rather than trying to diagnose. 

0:30:04

It would be so much more supportive, and it would give the man the opportunity to actually start expressing himself which is where the growth is gonna come from and also the bond in the relationship as well being able to communicate exactly what we feel and the needs that we have.

Amanda Testa: Yes! Also, where can everyone connect with you and find more about you?

Carla Crivaro: Yeah, so my website is www.carlacrivaro.com, and that’s the best place to find me. Instagram and Facebook don’t really like me too much, and I’ve been shadow-banned [Laughs] for talking about sex. So I just stay with my website. I do blogging, and I appear on podcasts. That’s the best way to find me is by my website.

Amanda Testa: Beautiful, and I’ll make sure to add all that info in the show notes so that people can find you and connect with you. Thank you so much, again, for coming on. I really appreciate this perspective of The Forgotten Father, and I think it's so important to have these conversations. Also, if you are concerned about how to communicate, that’s always something that you can work on as well. I’ll make sure to put in the show notes too -- I have a great little three-minute video about how to have a good conversation about something like this if you need a script. Sometimes people like that. That will be available as well.

0:31:23

Carla Crivaro: Thank you.

Amanda Testa: Yes, you're so welcome, Carla. Are there any last words you’d like to share?

Carla Crivaro: No, just thank you for giving me space in the women’s container for us to be able to talk about men and what they might be experiencing too. It’s really appreciated.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I think it’s important, too, to bring that empathy in, and so, when you can just see things from another’s perspective, that you might not have thought about before can just be very eye-opening. So I appreciate it, and thank you all, too, for listening. I so appreciate you all, and we will see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. 

0:32:08

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. 

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Dr. Uchenna “UC” Ossai is a sex-positive pelvic health physical therapist and sexuality educator and counselor. Dr. UC is assistant professor at the University of Texas Dell Medical School and also serves as pelvic health program manager at UT Health Austin. She is on faculty for the University of Michigan, School of Social Work’s Sexual Health Certification Program. 

Dr. UC is one of few licensed physical therapists in the world with an AASECT certification in sexuality counseling; as well as the only Black physical therapist with this specific designation. Dr. UC spends her days treating people with both sexual and pelvic floor dysfunction, and her evenings educating the masses on everything that has to do with “sexytime”. When it comes to sexual intelligence and great sex education, UC embraces always being unapologetically real, happily crunk, and deliciously kind.

Grab her Ebook: Sexy Swagger, A Guide to Reimagining Your Sex Life Here.

To learn more about UC, Check out her website that has LOADS of gems HERE.

Follow her on insta here.

Check out her fab free sex ed resource platform Woke is the New Sexy HERE.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 209: with UC Ossai

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast. If you ever struggle with pelvic pain or painful sex or are just looking for ways to have more pleasure, I’m really excited for today’s podcast because I am going to be talking with Dr. Uchenna Ossai who is a sex-positive pelvic health physical therapist as well as a sexuality educator and counselor. She also goes by UC, and Dr. UC, she’s also an assistant professor. She has a very long laundry list of amazing credentials, and not only is she only of the few licensed PTs who also has a certification in sexuality counseling (I just think that’s amazing), as well as the only Black physical therapist with this designation. 

0:01:05

And so, I feel like that’s such a beautiful thing to have this combination. She’s so fun. I love her playful way of sharing about sex and all these topics that can be considered taboo but are so important to talk about, and so, she has an amazing Instagram channel, @youseelogic, and she has such good information there, and she’s so much fun. Every time I see one of your reels or one of your posts, I’m always like, “Yes!” It always brings so much joy to me because you talk about such amazing things in such a fun and playful way, so thank you for all that you do.

UC Ossai: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. That was such a beautiful intro. I feel like aww, who’s this nice person that you're discussing? It’s me! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes, it’s you!

UC Ossai: It’s me! No, thank you! I appreciate you saying that, mainly because I love educating the community, the masses, other providers, consumers of care in the way that I do because we were not given -- at least when I was growing up, I wasn't given education about my sexuality, my sensuality, my eroticism, all of that, in this way. 

0:02:16

It wasn't given to me in a particular framework that was easy or felt appropriate to bring up in a healthcare space or with my family and friends, and so, I just wanted to kind of break down that barrier. So, that’s where You See Logic was born. 

Amanda Testa: I love it, and I feel like, too, so many can probably relate to that experience, you know? I think, obviously, the sex education system here in the U.S. is terrible, and just in general, it’s something that we can always learn more, right?

UC Ossai: Always. Always. I think that’s why I focus on sex ed for grown folk, becuase I think we all thought that we stopped our education at 18 across the globe or even sooner than that. Who knows, and as adults, as we’re getting into relationships with people, as we’re having kids or not having kids, whatever your choice is, but evolving as a human, so does our sexuality, and we’re not necessarily given that continuing lifespan base education on sex which we so desperately need.

0:03:26

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes, and I think it is interesting you say people stop learning about it at 18, and it’s true! Then, you see people that might have pelvic pain or don’t really know how to talk about it or are in relationships where it’s very unfulfilling in that department or where they don't really understand how much potential for pleasure is in their bodies. I know that was me too. [Laughs]

UC Ossai: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: It’s a learnable skill!

UC Ossai: Right? It is! It is.

Amanda Testa: You know, there was something that I saw on your website that really struck me. I mean, I know there’s a lot of people that report pelvic pain, but there was a quote that I saw: “Eighty percent of women who have chronic pelvic pain are still having penetrative sex despite reporting moderate to severe pain.”

0:04:13

UC Ossai: Yes.

Amanda Testa: That just made me so sad.

UC Ossai: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. As a pelvic health physical therapist, I see this every single day where the burden of being -- not burden, but I think that what society puts on women and vulva owners is -- they put a lot on us to perform, to provide, right? I think that, no matter your sexuality, no matter your relationship structure, it gets internalized. You can be the wokest, dopest progressive person out there, but you still have internalized this societal messaging because it’s hardwired in all of us. We’re all swimming in the same pool, and it does take a lot of conscious work to get ourselves out of that mindset, but then when you're having sexual pain, often times people say, “Oh, it’s just easier for me to grin and bear it than tell my partner it hurts because I don't want them to lose access to this part of being sexual.” 

0:05:21

Also, it speaks to the notion that we define sex as only penetrative sex, right? That that’s the gold standard of sex, and it’s really not. It’s a beautiful, fun way to access our sexual pleasure, but it’s not the only way to access our sexual pleasure, and I know some people roll their eyes, and they're like, “Yeah, I get it, but…” and that’s really because of how that individual is looking at sex, right? If your viewpoint of sex is, “Well, foreplay, penetration, thats it,” then yeah, that’s going to be how we are going to move in space. That’s how you’re gonna negotiate your sexual pain in that framework, but if you have a more expansive view on sex, and saying, “Yes, penetration is an important part of my sex life, but there are also other things I can do while I figure out how to manage my pain with the penetrative model. 

0:06:21

That’s where I want a lot of my patients and community members to get to. I’m not saying throw out the concept or notion of having penetrative sex. I’m not saying it’s not good or bad or whatever. I’m saying it’s a component of being sexual, not the component of being sexual.

Amanda Testa: That’s such an important point to note, because I think if people are experiencing pelvic pain, and instead of having to feel uncomfortable or feel like, “Well, this is the only way that I know,” or, “This is my partner’s go-to,” it doesn't mean you have to totally cut off yourself from intimate connection. It can just look different, right? I think that’s sometimes very hard for people to wrap their heads around. 

UC Ossai: Absolutely, and we tend to -- it’s gonna hit different depending on if you're in a heterosexual relationship or a homosexual relatonship or you're pansexual --

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

0:07:23

UC Ossai: -- depending on how you rest or explore, and so, it’s gonna play out differently ‘cause you might, depending on how your relationship structure is and how you engage in sex with your partner, that does play a significant role. If there’s a more traditional approach that you take -- traditional is not necessarily saying conservative or anything like that. Some people, traditional for them is open discussion of sex. For some people, traditional is, if they're in a heterosexual relationship, having the man lead in terms of the sexual encounter and the woman follows.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: So, you know, that’s where we’re talking about a cultural approach. A cultural approach isn't necessarily racial. It’s about how does one engage in life, period --

Amanda Testa: Yes.

UC Ossai: -- and how those power dynamics play out in the sexual aspects of their relationships, whether those are long term relationships or short term relationships. 

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I’m wondering, too, with that, communication is such a big key.

UC Ossai: Huge.

Amanda Testa: And I feel like, in some ways, people are good at it and in some ways they're not, and also, I feel like sometimes the more progressive or the more you are comfortable talking about your sexuality, the more you are comfortable in your own body, the easier it is to talk about your boundaries or what is good or what you want or having those discussions before any kind of connection. 

0:08:45

Then, also, sometimes too, if you're in whatever kind of relationship and it’s been more of a long term thing, it’s easy to just get into patterns where maybe you don't talk about it. And so, I’m wondering, maybe, if you have any tips around talking about your sexual needs and how to bring up those conversations because I hear that all the time from clients. That’s one of the hardest things. They can talk about everything but not this one thing. It feels really hard to talk about.

UC Ossai: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I love this question, and I think that you can do it many ways, but the first thing that we have to think about when we’re wanting to bring this up is we have to start with ourselves, and we have to ask ourselves this question: how have I defined my sexuality? Is it solely through the eyes of my partner or is it through my own eyes? Based on that -- right, if you're saying okay, I’m doing this through my own eyes, what is it that you’re looking for? What is it that you need? Is it that you need novelty? Is it that you need more intimacy, more connection? 

0:09:47

Is it that you need more aggressive touch? Is it that you need lighter touch? Really think about what it is that you're looking for. Is it that you need more words of verbal affirmation during sex or do you need less verbal affirmation and more just your partner paying attention to you and understanding what the physical cues are? Have you had that discussion with your partner? Then, once you figure that out, it’s a lot easier to talk to your partner about what your needs are, especially if you’ve been in a long term relationship.

0:10:27

I just did a post yesterday, actually, about looking at your partner with fresh eyes, with new perspective, especially long term partners, right? You're looking at them, and you're like yeah, I know their moves, I know this, but have you ever just taken a moment to stop and close your eyes for a second and open your eyes and look at them and observe them as if it was the first time you met them, as if you do not know that they're ticklish behind their left ear, as if you do not know that they don't like their stomach being exposed? How about that, right? 

0:11:00

Maybe that can be a simple exercise because depending on how your partner is, they may respond to some type of, “Hey, babe, I would like to try this game out,” versus talking directly. Some people love direct communication, and some people don't, right? Some people may say, “Oh, I don't feel comfortable with this,” or maybe you can just tell your partner, “You know what, I would just like to try something where I’m in charge, and I’m gonna blindfold you, and I’m gonna  massage you,” and you can do the things you want to do with them, and then you guys can debrief, and that can be a way to open up that conversation.

Everyone has a different style, you just have to first, like I said, figure out what it is that you need and are looking for or want to explore, and then think about how that communication will be best received with your partner and also how it would be best received with you because sex is a collaboration, and the reality is, I think the fear that a lot of people have when they say how do I talk to my partner, it’s not that they arent ready, it’s that they may be fearful that their partner isn’t ready, their partner isn't examining the way that they're examining, and they don't want their partner to feel bad because their partner may have a different understanding of sexuality than they do. 

0:12:19

That’s where the problem is, to be honest, because I think if people were on the same page with each other, it’d be a lot easier to talk about it, but since you're not, it’s like, “Oh, I don't know how to talk to my boo who’s a little sensitive when it comes to talking about sex.”

Amanda Testa: Yeah. 

UC Ossai: And so, I tell people that there’s nothing wrong with trying out some of these techniques, but then if it’s not landing, there’s nothing wrong with getting help from an amazing coach like yourself, from a licensed mental health provider, from a sex counselor, from whoever you feel comfortable communicating with. That is actually an amazing opportunity to reimagine your sex life, to construct a new dialogue and expand, right? I tell people every time you have a roadblock and there’s a willingness from the both of you, and it doesn't even have to be an equal level or intensity of willingness, but just at least some, it’s a beautiful opportunity to grow.

0:13:18

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love that willingness and just having that fresh look. 

UC Ossai: Yeah!

Amanda Testa: Even just as you say it my body’s like oh, that opens up a little bit because there is such possibility in that, right? 

UC Ossai: There’s so much possibility. Like I said, pretend that you're the freshman. Don't be the professor. You're not the expert. Stop.

Amanda Testa: Yes!

UC Ossai: It’s also a lot of work to be the expert. Think about that. It’s a lot of work to be the expert. If you guys wanna do a mindful thing right now just think about it. Be like I am the expert, and I’m always having to tell boo thang about what I -- ugh, can’t I just be an observer? Can I just be a learner? Can I just take on the role of being the explorer and discover again? You can do that anytime you want. 

Amanda Testa: I love that. The explorer versus the expert.

UC Ossai: Be that sexy explorer. Yes, honey!

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

0:14:17

UC Ossai: Yes. So much more fun, too. See, my pelvic floor relaxes when I say explore versus we have to be the expert. I’m tired. I work all damn day. I don't want to necessarily -- I tell people, “I’m not Captain Save You All.” I’m Captain Save UC, but I can't be always on all the time, and I think that’s the reality too. I’ve given this advice, and I think this advice is relevant depending on the person and where they are in life. Taking control of your sex life and telling your partner -- but sometimes people don't want to do that. Sometimes they're just like ah, I’m tired. Why do I have to tell them every little thing? I want them to read my mind. 

Amanda Testa: Yeah, it feels like work sometimes.

UC Ossai: Right?

Amanda Testa: You’re like I’m too tired. It’s too much.

UC Ossai: I’m too tired.

Amanda Testa: And it’s like I’ll just not worry about it.

UC Ossai: I’ll just not worry about it. I’ll just have sex, right? This is my point. this is why having that expanded view of sex can be real helpful. 

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

0:15:14

UC Ossai: Because sometimes you're like I don't feel like telling you how to do that thing that I want you to do well but it’s not quite working for me, so let’s focus on sensual touch and massage for now, tonight, because that’s part of our repertoire. We’ll both be satisfied, and it’s gonna be beautiful, and then when I have the bandwidth I’ll talk you through the other thing that I feel like.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love that. 

UC Ossai: Right?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, and those other bonding behaviors or other sensual touch are other ways to be together. There are so many ways. You can define that for yourself too. It can look like anything, really, right?

UC Ossai: Literally anything.

Amanda Testa: Sex can look like anything.

UC Ossai: It can literally be anything. That’s the thing that I’m working with, with couples. If we just take you out of this binary concept of sex and just add onto it, it will just free you up so much. 

0:16:14

Sex becomes ten times more exciting when you have so many other ways to engage with your partner and value it. That’s the key thing. Valuing those other approaches are huge because if we minimize the value of those encounters and we don’t say -- my friends, when was the last time you had a passionate makeout sesh with your partner in the back of a car like you were a young whippersnapper in your teen years? That stuff is smokin’.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Yeah.

UC Ossai: Right?

Amanda Testa: Yes!

UC Ossai: Like, it will put blood in all of the parts of your body, especially if you kind of deal with a little time like ooh, we’ve got ten more minutes with the babysitter, let’s make out! You know? Whatever! I think that can be such a fulfilling moment, and then to hold that sensual space ‘cause you don't necessarily have to explore past that. You can just hold onto that sexual energy and let it build for a day, for an hour, for two days, for a week, and then express it in a way that your body desires in the moment. You see how I said it? I didn't say oh, then you can have penetrative sex. Express it in the way that your body desires, and being tuned into that enough, that’s what it really means to be a fully embodies sexual person.

0:17:47

Amanda Testa: Yes.

UC Ossai: It’s having that sexual flexibility. 

Amanda Testa: Mm, I love that term too. Sexual flexibility. It’s good, and how your body wants it. I think that is something too, just being in touch with what your body wants and needs. I think that brings me back to something that I want to touch back to. The painful part because when you are able to tune in, then you can feel and listen to that because it can be easy, also, to bypass what our body’s saying, bypass pain for whatever reason. When you can feel what your body needs and wants and you can talk about it, then you have so many more options.

I’m wondering, too, for anyone that’s listening that is struggling with painful sex or pelvic pain, what other advice you might have to give to them or maybe just some baby steps that they could start to explore.

0:18:45

UC Ossai: Sure, absolutely. So anytime people have unwanted pain with sex, know that there’s not one solution becuase pain with sex is an umbrella term. It’s like saying someone has bacne, right? 

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Totally yeah.

UC Ossai: Hmm, it’s complicated meaning that there are lots of reasons, tons of reasons, why people have pain with sex. It could be that they're severely constipated. It could be that they have endometriosis. It could be that they have vulvodynia. It could be that they have clitoral pain that has nothing to do with vulvodynia. It could be that they have hip pain that’s referring into the levator ani or the pelvic floor. It could be because they have a prolapse that’s causing pelvic floor muscle hypertonicity. It could be because they have pelvic floor weakness and the muscles are strained, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

0:19:42

So my first piece of advice is to make sure that you're going to see a licensed medical professional who specializes in pelvic pain, who specializes in sexual pain. Usually, the people who are specialists are going to be a uro-gynecologist or a female urologist that specializes in female medicine. When I’m saying female medicine, that’s how usually they describe it, but women and non-binary vulva owners, that would be my first stop or gynecolosits who specialize in pelvic pain. They're out there. So identify those people first. It’s not just MDs. It can be PAs, nurse practitioners as well. So that’s gonna be the first step just to make sure that they screen and properly roll things out. But then from the non-medical side of things or from a less intensive let-me-make-an-appointment-with-the-doctor component, I think it’s first about understanding okay, what precisely hurts about sex. If it’s initial penetration, I always tell people that the solution to initial penetration isn't the same solution for people who have pain with deeper penetration.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

UC Ossai: One thing that we also have to remember is that there are a ton of nerves in our pelvic floor and those nerves come from the hip, the spine, the rectum, the bladder, all of that. 

0:20:58

So all of those can influence what’s happening. So if you're having pain with initial penetration, I would say the first thing is getting your partner to start slow, right? So starting with a finger. No matter who you're having sex with, starting with a finger, using a lot of lubricant. A lot of times people say use lubricant if you have pain with sex. Well, yes, if you actually have dryness, lubricant is very helpful, but if you don't, it’s actually just the idea of penetration. Having your partner kind of push -- and it’s hard to describe it here, but it’s almost like you're pushing your skin down towards your anus on your vulva, so it almost gives some slack to the vaginal opening. Then you insert the finger and just kind of massage at the opening, right? So if you think of your vagina as a clock, right (twelve is the urethra, six is the anus), then just massage from one to eleven, from right to left, just to kind of open things up, kind of desensitize the tissue a little bit. If that’s the only type of sex you're having where you're just having additional penetration, then you can practice doing side to side, then you can do in and out, whatever you decide. 

0:22:02

Also, using an external vibrator can be helpful, and not necessarily on the clitoris. For some people that’s perfect, right, because that helps to kind of distract and you can do penetrative intercourse with that, but also, you can put it on the pubic bone. When you put it on the pubic bone, it vibrates through the entire pelvic floor and can really act to help improve blood flow to the area and decrease pain sensitivity. So that can be really helpful. We call that pairing, but oftentimes usually people do pairing and they put it on the clitoris, but I like the pubic bone, ‘cause it really does help to relax muscle, and that can be great with initial penetration.

Now, for the folks who have pain with deeper penetration, again, a gang of issues. the first thing I always tell people, and people are shocked when I say this, make sure you're popping.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: Okay? I can't tell you how many times I did a pelvic exam and I go into someone’s vagina, and there’s, like, a mountain from their rectum because they haven't emptied, and they're like, “Yeah, that’s my pain,” and I’m like, “Oh, okay, ‘cause the penis, toy, finger keeps hitting the poop.”

0:23:09

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: That’s straining that posterior vaginal wall, and that’s part of your issue, so make sure that you’re emptying your bowels well, that you're not overly straining. If you have a constipation problem, consult with a rectal specialist, but also work with a pelvic health physical therapist to help you with that. If you get that down, it that’s the cause, it can reduce your sexual pain by at least 50% or more. 

Amanda Testa: I just want to note to that too that I think it’s so interesting how constipation can affect your pleasure and also just how helpful it can be to go see a pelvic floor physical therapist because there’s so much that, like you say, little things we don't realize, just to the importance of pooping, right?

0:24:00

UC Ossai: I know! Who knew?

Amanda Testa: I know a lot of people that have this problem, so I just love that you named that. So thank you. [Laughs]

UC Ossai: Yes, plus, it always doesn't feel great when you're full of poop all the time. I mean, you're not gonna feel like a sexy superstar if you're carrying four days of stool, right? I don't feel sexy when I’m bloated. I don't know about you, right? I don't feel sexy when I’m constipated, and so, that’s just a fact. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

UC Ossai: You know?

Amanda Testa: Yes.

UC Ossai: It’s just a fact. It’s like we can have sex, but it’s not gonna be fun, you know?

Amanda Testa: Yeah, mm-hmm.

UC Ossai: Then another thing to consider with deeper penetrative pain with sex is the fact that sometimes those muscles are really, really strained or they might be too tight. and so, a couple of things off the market you can buy is Ohnut. It is a fantastic tool to help people with the components of penetrative sex. I tell people it’s a great tool to have in your toolbox whether or not you have pain.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: You can use it with your finger, you can use it with a strap on, you can use it with a penis. It’s fantastic, and it does limit the depth of penetration, right? Particularly for people who say it feels like something is hitting a wall in their vagina, that’s a great tool.

0:25:22

Another thing, too, is pelvic floor relaxation exercises, diaphragmatic breathing. Diaphragmatic breathing, especially when you couple it with your vagina and your pelvic floor is essential. Oftentimes, people just do the belly breathing. They don't really think about their pelvic floor. So I always tell people to make sure that you do a quick scan. Make sure your ears are relaxed, jaw is relaxed, shoulders out of your ears, relax your belly, pelvic floor, and toes. Relax your toes. If your toes are clenched, your pelvic floor is clenched. If your jaw is clenched, your pelvic floor is clenched. So make sure you do that quick scan, and then place your tongue to the roof of your mouth, breathe into your nose for three seconds, and when you breathe into your nose, you want your chest to stay still and that belly to expand. You want to feel the anus and vagina open as you inhale. It’s almost like you're inflating a balloon, and then as you exhale, you're deflating that balloon.

0:26:11

So you want to have that synergistic movement with your diaphragm and your pelvic floor to make sure that they expand and coordinate. What that does, not only yes, it does up-regulate your parasympathetic nervous system which is very important for sexual response and deregulates your sympathetic nervous system that’s thinking you're being chased by a bear all the time, but also, it helps with your blood flow to that area. It helps with pelvic floor muscle relaxation. It should be really, really nice particularly if you have pain with intercourse.

Those are my quick tips when it comes to different types of sexual pain. Then, also, we have to remember our folks who have pain with arousal before they're even touched and our folks who have pain after sex. The people who have pain after sex, it’s important to have an aftercare plan or afterplay is what I call it. We have foreplay; we need afterplay. Do you want to do couple belly breathing with your partner? Should you ask your partner to get you an ice pack or a heating pad? Do you want to get in child’s pose or happy baby pose to kind of help your body recover? Those are really nice things that you can do to take care of your body afterwards, particularly if you're a person where you're like I feel raw, I feel all these things.

0:27:19

Another thing, too, for those of you who have pain after sex. Private Packs is a fantastic tool. It’s a vulva pack that can be heated or cooled. It’s in CVS stores. Check out Suzanne Sinatra. She founded this company many moons ago, and she is just killing the game, and I recommend it to my patients all the time. 

Amanda Testa: Beautiful. I love that, and those are very doable things to remember and to hold in your toolbox. I think, too, I’d love to talk about if someone maybe has fear around going to see a pelvic floor PT or fear of bringing these things up with their medical provider ‘cause that is a big part of it, right? Oftentimes there’s a lot of shame.

UC Ossai: Yes.

0:28:09

Amanda Testa: Sometimes people feel uncomfortable talking or bringing it up. Of course, the medical care can run the spectrum.

UC Ossai: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I’m curious how you can advocate for yourself if that’s true for you.

UC Ossai: So, first and foremost, that’s a great question. I want everyone to recognize that your sexual health is an indicator of your overall health. So people who have sexual dysfunction or sexual pain or they're not happy with their sex life, they have some sort of distress with their sex life, they're not gonna view themselves as healthy, okay? So it’s a very important indicator. I also want to acknowledge that we are all in this humanity thing together, and some of us in that humanity thing are also doctors and healthcare providers who also have our own hang-ups about sexytime and are not the best when it comes to bringing those up. Some of us are and some of us aren’t. 

Amanda Testa: Right.

UC Ossai: The Medical Programs across the board don't do the best job of preparing future healthcare providers for sexytime. That’s changing. It’s getting better, but historically, that has not been the case. So I just want to put that caveat. 

That being said, there are a ton out there who are really trying, who really want to empower you and support you.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes.

0:29:25

UC Ossai: There are a ton of us out here. A ton. So the first thing is write down your questions. Write down your questions. I’m just using an example, if you're going to see your OBGYN, you maybe have 15 minutes, and so, you might have to make a separate appointment. Call ahead and say, “I have a concern about my sexual functioning. Should I make a separate appointment with doctor so-and-so to discuss that because I know I’m supposed to do my pap smear, and I’m supposed to talk about this other health issue. Yada, yada, yada,” right? And so, that’s the first advice I have.

The second advice I have is to understand that they may not have the answer to your solution, but they can at least give you referrals for that, right? So they can say, “Okay, thank you for sharing this with me. We definitely need to address this. Here’s what I can contribute to this. I can prescribe a medication. I can prescribe topical estrogen cream. I can prescribe Lidocaine cream. I could do this, but I do want you to address your fear with a licensed mental health professional or a coach or a counselor. I do want you to address your muscular and skeletal dysfunction with a pelvic health physical therapist. So I’m gonna make those referrals, and let’s circle back in three to six months and see how you're progressing,” right?

0:30:39

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: If that doesn't happen, it’s not because you are inappropriate. It’s not because you asked a question that was not right. It’s simply because they do not have the answers and they may not feel comfortable telling you they don't have the answers or they may not be comfortable talking about sex even though they should because they're a healthcare provider. That’s not on you. So what I say in that moment is, “Okay, thank you! Do you have referrals? No? Okay, great, then I’ll find another provider that can help.”

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: That’s how I would approach that because I think it’s really important for us to understand all the things that I just said, but then also be willing to walk away or seek someone that does match your energy, [Laughs] that does really want to help you in that capacity because it is a valid concern. So many times we see people with -- sorry, my alarm is going off. So sorry!

Amanda Testa: No worries!

0:31:43

UC Ossai: So many times, so many times we are seeing people living with chronic pain for five to ten years before they get help or living with sexual concerns for twenty years because they never brought it up or they brought it up one time and a doctor dismissed them and just said drink wine, you should be fine, and they drank wine, and they weren’t fine, and they were like well, I’m not gonna go back to that doctor. And so, I just want you all to think about it. This is a part of your health, and it is a priority, and you have a right to have your questions answered. You have a right to have full autonomy of your healthcare, and that means working with someone that’s going to take your concerns seriously and, at least, put you in a direction that will help address those concerns.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I’m wondering if you have any resources that you can share of where people can look if they're, maybe, wanting some supportive help, like, where they can go to find a great pelvic health PT or if there’s any resources or websites or anything you might recommend in that area.

0:32:52

UC Ossai: Yeah! Yeah, absolutely. So my favorite resource started by Jeanice Mitchell. She’s a pelvic health physical therapist. It’s called MyPFM.com for my pelvic floor muscles. She is a force to be reckoned with, and she created this nonprofit that’s all focused on pelvic health. She has a database where you can access, find providers in your zip code. She has a database within MyPFM.comhttps://www.mypfm.com, but then she also directs at Herman and Wallace which is another institute defying pelvic health specialists, and not just pelvic PTs, but massage therapists, nurse practitioners, doctors, all that. Then The Academy of Pelvic Health which is a branch of the American Physical Therapy Association. So that’s our governing body, and they really are the authority in our licensing and training, and they have a huge database as well, so you can find people on those websites for sure and simply enter your zip code.

0:33:53

And then, of course, you know, just like any provider, interview them. Call and say, “Hey, these are the concerns I have.” If they answer your questions appropriately then you're like, “Okay, great. I’ll make an appointment. See you in a few weeks.”

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I think it’s so important to advocate for your own healthcare, because I never realized the importance of this. [Laughs]

UC Ossai: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Until I got together with my husband who is in medicine, and he just opened my eyes to so much about how you really have to advocate for yourself, and yes, you can trust people’s opinions, but also really listen to what your body’s telling you. If something is bothering you, and you can't get the answers you want, keep seeking, right? There are ways to find relief, and you don't have to live in pain. There are so many ways to find workarounds or find solutions. There's a lot of opportunity for healing. 

UC Ossai: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

UC Ossai: Absolutely. I cannot agree with that more.

Amanda Testa: And so, okay, now I want to just change the topic just a little bit.

UC Ossai: Yeah!

Amanda Testa: Because something, too, I love that you always talk about is kind of some popular myths about orgasm. 

0:35:06

UC Ossai: Oh, yeah, sure. Let’s do it.

Amanda Testa: Would you talk a little about that?

UC Ossai: Gosh, I mean, where do I begin?

Amanda Testa: Right? [Laughs]

UC Ossai: [Laughs] It’s fine! Choose your own adventure with that one!

Amanda Testa: This could be a multi-epic encyclopedias of information, but yes.

UC Ossai: I know. Okay, this is actually one of my favorite ones. That the orgasm achieved through the vagina or vaginal penetration is this mythical creature that if you don't achieve it, you're not a full person, and I just -- [Laughs] The reason I’m stumbling here is I don't get it. I don’t…

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

0:35:52

UC Ossai: So the thing about it is this. That pleasure is subjective, and we really have to think about this. I will tell you a story. I’ve been a pelvic PT for ten years, eleven years. I will never forget this individual that walked into my clinic one day, and they said to me, “I am anorgasmic.” I said, “Okay!” When we go through the interview, I said, “What about through clitorial stimulation? What is the sensation?” They're like, “Oh, I have orgasms with clitoral stimulation,” and I said, “Oh, okay.” That was my response. Oh, okay. In my head I was thinking they were anorgasmic. I’m like oh, okay, great. I said, “Okay, so then what is your concern?” And they're like, “Well, I’ve never had an orgasm vaginally. Clitorial orgasms, I have those easily. It’s not the same.” [Deep breath out] I said, “Well, why is it not the same?”

0:37:01

I think, honestly, what was happening was that through their upbringing, right, when they were not having orgasms with penile penetration, the kind of messaging from their partners was like oh, well there’s something wrong with you. That when I’m penetrating you, my penis isn't giving you an orgasm. And so, they thought that that was actually fact, and so did their partner. That’s an education deficit.

Amanda Testa: Right.

UC Ossai: That’s a true education deficit that this person has carried their entire adult life, and then when I finally kind of work it down for them and I said, “Listen, not all orgasms are going to be felt the same. You might have an intense orgasm one day. Later in the day, you might have an orasm that has a glass ceiling to it, right? There are many reasons that that happens.” And so, experiencing an orgasm isn't the goal of sex, but the method of how you expereince that orgasm also doenst matter as long as you're having pleasurable intercourse where you feel safe, where you feel sexual, where you feel good, right? If one day, you're having penetrative sex, and you’re massaging the clirotis and you're like whoa, that felt real different. That’s fantastic! Wonderful. You can repeat that in your next sexual encounter or, dare I say, don't repeat it and try a different path of pleasure and see where you go from there, see where that boat takes you.

0:38:42

When we talked through this after a few sessions, she actually felt a lot of anger about the years that she spent kind of shaming herself or blaming herself and pathologizing herself because of this very pervasive popular myth that this vaginal orgasm is the creme de le creme and all the other orgasms are trash. It’s just dripping in patriarchy. Ugh.

Amanda Testa: Yes. [Laughs] Ugh.

UC Ossai: Yeah, that myth is annoying. Then, the other myth that I also find annoying is the whole we need to cum at the same time. What? [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Right? [Laughs] Yes.

UC Ossai: Really? No, I mean, if you're cloned maybe, you know? I think that -- [Laughs] sorry.

Amanda Testa: It’s true. 

UC Ossai: Romantic comedies have destroyed us, right, for this very reason. I think people do a lot of mirroring in sex too. When they're learning about sex they're mirroring their partner and they want to feel what their partner’s feeling and they want to engage, and yeah, depending on some tantric practices, some of those can happen. People can do a lot of things. 

0:40:03

You can kind of time all those things if you want to get deep and real into it, sure, but on the regular, simultaneous orgasms, that, again, should not be the goal. If you experience an orgasm at the same time as your partner, cool, but that doesn't mean you're doing anything right or wrong, it just means that that’s how the cookie crumbles.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: That’s great. Then the next time you have sex, if you cum first and your partner cums later, great. If they cum first and you cum later, great. We don't need to -- I think one of the things, too, is I tell people to free ourselves from these myths and really be self-centered when it comes to your sex life and really have that exploritative approach, because when you have that and you don't have that performative standard, it’s just so much more fun. 

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

0:41:02

UC Ossai: It’s way, way, way more entertaining when you don't have in the back of your head, well, I need to make sure that I cum at the same time as my partner. 

Amanda Testa: That's just more stress, more lack of being in the minute probably.

UC Ossai: Yes!

Amanda Testa: That just is more of all the things and the breaks in your brain that are like meh. 

UC Ossai: Oh, yeah, it’s like you take a bath in Lidocaine; it just shuts everything down.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Yes.

UC Ossai: Like ugh. Your erotic mind cannot flourish when you're thinking about that.

Amanda Testa: Right. Thank you so much for all the amazing wisdom that you're sharing. I feel like I could just talk to you forever. I’m wondering, though, if there’s maybe any question that I didn't ask that you wish I would have asked or anything else that you want to make sure that you share?

UC Ossai: Gosh, no. I love this conversation. I love talking about rethinking how we approach sex, and knowing that it’s just going to continue to evolve. The way I think about sex now is not how I thought about sex five years ago. How I thought about sex five years ago is not how I thought about sex five years prior to that.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

UC Ossai: I do not expect to think the same or necessarily have the same opinions in five years, but I definitely know that in five years’ time I’m gonna be more intimately connected to my body and my needs, and that’s the goal. We just want to evolve. We should all think of our sex lives in that way as we age and move through life.

0:42:46

Amanda Testa: Yes, and the evolving is possible for anyone. I can speak to that, I mean, at least for my experience and so many people and clients and stories that I hear, it’s possible, and so, just to have that, being able to feel the possibility of what’s available can really add hope. It’s like don't be dwelling on the circumstance you're in now, but there’s always a possibility for something different. Even when it feels hard there is, and so, that’s why there are amazing experts to help you. That’s one of the reasons, Dr. UC, I’m so happy that you came on because I really want to make it feel less hard to get what you want for yourself, right, to find the resources and tools that you need.

UC Ossai: Yes! One hundred percent. One hundred percent.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and thank you for all the amazing work that you are doing in the world and all the pleasure you're bringing to people. [Laughs]

UC Ossai: Thank you. I love it, and it’s just a joy, and I hope that people take away from this just a little tip, even if it’s a tip they may not take in personally but they can share with a friend because we all deserve to have a sex life that’s free of judgement, that’s empowered, and that we’re content and happy with.

0:44:00

Amanda Testa: Yes, and for everyone listening, too, I will let Dr. UC, in a second, share about all of her amazing ways to connect with her and get more information, but also, on her Instagram, it’s Y-O-U S-E-E L-O-G-I-C, @youseelogic, and she’s got such great content in there. She does her weekly Bourbon Tales where she’ll answer questions. And so, there’s just a plethora of information there, too, and resource that I want to make sure to send you to. Where else can people connect with you?

UC Ossai: Absolutely, so people can connect with me on my website www.youseelogic.com. I have a free platform there, Woke is the New Sexy where you have a free downloadable ebook that takes you through each of the subsections of intersectionality, penis owners, postpartum pregnancy, chain orgasms, you name it. We have it on there, and we’re updating all the content now, so you should be ready to go when you check it out. 

0:45:05

Then, if you want a little bit more guidance, I have my ebook, Reimagining Your Sex Life. It’s just a sexy swagger guide to how you can -- and this is geared towards women and non-binary folk -- but how do we reimagine our sex life? I do a segment called Swagger Tips on @youseelogic, and I took my top ten since I started and I just created this workbook that you could work through, and it’s been super fun to create that, and I’ve had a few people who bought the ebook and said, “Hey, I loved it, and I want some more help.” So they can book one-on-one sessions with me. Particularly, those of you who have pelvic health issues, as a pelvic health PT, I can talk you through that and counsel you through that and navigate those components, and so, I’m just really excited to share that with you all.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and your website is such a goldmine of resources, so thank you. Yeah, and I will make sure, too, to put in the show notes all the details of where you can connect with Dr. UC. Thank you, again, so much for being here.

0:46:11

UC Ossai: Thank you Thank you, this has been great.

Amanda Testa: Thank you all for listening, and we will talk to you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. 

Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. 

Thank you so mUCh for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Marie Magdalena Wolf is a certified trauma informed Sacred Sexuality and Relationship coach. 

Her journey to heal her own sexual trauma and experiencing better sex in her relationship led her to a life changing energy and spiritual awakening.

She remembered Sacred Sexuality as her purpose.

She is now guiding women, men and couples back to their orgasmic pleasure, truth and power so that they create fulfilling intimacy and healthy exciting relationships, along with expanding their consciousness to new realms of love and possibilities.

She offers private coaching, group courses and live workshops and retreats.

To learn more about her upcoming offerings, you can connect with her here.  Join her free FB group, here.

Follow her on insta here.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

If you are feeling it is HIGH TIME for more pleasure and satisfaction in your life, Schedule a confidential heart to heart connection call with Amanda HERE.

TRANSCRIPT

Amanda Testa (00:02):

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex love and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex love and relationships and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome.

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Are you wanting to enjoy more money and better sex? If you are looking for more pleasure, passion and money than tune in as on this week's podcast episode. I’m talking with my dear friend and colleague Marie Magdalena Wolf on what it takes to really receive all that you desire. Uh, Marie is a certified trauma informed, sacred sexuality and relationship coach. And I am so excited to be here with you today. Yes, we, we actually met back in probably 2016. Yeah. And when we both embarked on this journey of one of the certifications we had done together, and I just love, love Marie. We were pussy posse sisters, and now it's just been fun to watch how everything has blossomed and growing. It's so interesting. This, we were talking the other day about how connected, you know, sex and money are. And so welcome, Marie. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for being here.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (01:11):

Thank you so much for having me. I love you so much. It's so good to be on this journey with you. Yes.

Amanda Testa (01:18):

And I would love if you wouldn't just mind sharing a little, a little bit of your story and why you're so passionate about out this work.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (01:24):

Yeah. So it's crazy, right. I feel like between the time that we met and today, so much transformation has happened like internally and externally. And so what led me to start this journey was my personal desire to heal sexual trauma. I didn't even realize that I had sexual trauma actually before get on the journey and just have a better relationship with my ex-husband. And I was so committed to feeling the fulfillment in the bedroom, feeling the sexual pleasure and the aliveness I knew was somewhere. And I didn't know where to find that like a lot of people. And so I started to look around and then I found a certification and I found beautiful tribe of people you included. And it started. So it was really first and foremost, a personal desire.

Amanda Testa (02:11):

Yes. And I think that there's so many, you know, people that I talk to that can relate to that really wanting the sexual satisfaction and pleasure in the relationship, which is a very important part. You know, oftentimes people, I think put it on the back burner, but truly it's a huge part of feeling fulfilled in your partnerships and your relationships. And I mean, and I can relate to, you know, back in my twenties when I was in a very unfulfilling relationship for a long time and just how that was such a lack. Right. And you find ways to maybe push it down or numb it out or be like, everything's fine, but it's truly an important part. I I'd love for you to share a little bit more about that.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (02:50):

Yeah, you're so right. And it's so important for people to hear it and not wanna hear it once, but hear it over and over and over again, through different angles because we are conditioned to not believe it's important, even more for a lot of us with religious conditioning or whatever upbringing we had sex is sinful or dangerous, or there is some kind of negative connotation to it for a lot of people. So it's really important for people to hear that this desire is beautiful. It's holy, it's important. And it's connected to other aspects of yourself. Like your sexuality is part of who you are and being fulfilled in that area of your life is so important. And like you and I have talked about recently, cuz we hung out recently. It was how much is connected to worthiness? You know, how much feeling worthy of your sexual desires is important , and it's connected to that sense of like self worth. Like, am I deserving of what I want? And yes, you’re so deserving.

Amanda Testa (03:44):

That worthiness piece is so huge because you know, this is something that I work with a lot with clients and I know you do too, because I think that, you know, just based on our cultural upbringing, a lot of times there is just that sense of “not enoughness”  and it shows up and like you say, our sexuality is part of everything, right. I think it's very easy for people to compartmentalize things, but truly we are holistic beings and how we are affects everything. <laugh> right. So it can make sense if, you know, I know we were talking about this too. We, you and I both work a lot of times with like high performing, like really successful type a driven woman and they can be really, you know, just rocking and rolling in business and everything's going amazing. And then yet they feel really shut down in other areas like being able to surrender or being able to, you know, find fulfilling relationship. And so it's kind of like that. Well, if I it's like knowing that you can have both, you can have both the success, the pleasure. So I'd love if you'd speak to that a little bit.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (04:44):

Yeah. This is such a beautiful conversation, right? Cause there is so much richness and so many layers to this, but like you say, I think for a lot of us, there is internal splits, internal dichotomies, not just one dichotomy, but many dichotomies inside of us where we're like, I think I can have this, but I've been trained to believe that if I have this, I can't have that. And with our clients, like for me, I see with my clients, it manifests in many different ways, but at the core of it, there's always this, I may be giving myself permission to be worthy of that. Let's say it's sexual pleasure, but I don't believe I can have success or I don't believe I can have money or I don't believe I deserve to be loved. And it's almost like we are fragmented within, we have created this, like these beliefs that we, that we have practice keep us separated inside.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (05:31):

And I think what we're doing is really allowing ourselves and others to be like, no, we can have these inner pieces communicate together. And it's okay. And going back to what you're saying about type A women, like I think for a lot of women, they adopted the quote unquote kind of masculine way of doing business. This idea like, you know, it has to be hard and it has to be intense and it has to be nonstop. And then putting pleasure out of the equation when really to be fulfilled all of us, regardless of your, our gender, we need to bring pleasure back in our life. And it's like bringing that softness and that capacity to surrender. Not only because it's important, but because you're actually gonna success better, you're gonna have the, have a better quality of success. So yeah, bringing these pieces of ourselves together

Amanda Testa (06:22):

And there was something that you were just saying too around accessing all the different parts of us and how, when we have told ourselves a story or we feel like if I have this, then I can't have that. If I have this, then I can't have that. Or you know, I'm either on or off when it comes to productivity or whatever it is. And I mean, a lot of our, a lot of, especially here in the us, the productivity kind of grind culture is very extractive, but yet that is what we've all been taught is that you gotta work hard and you gotta do well and you gotta succeed. And then there's like the pyramid that you gotta get to the top of, which is really not benefiting anyone, maybe the person on the top, but that person on the top is usually exhausted and overwhelmed and extracting from others, which doesn't feel good sometimes or ever. Right. So it just makes me think that it's, it's important to talk about because I feel like, you know, we, yes, it's amazing and wonderful to build success. And so what I see though is, a lot of times you have done all this work. Maybe you have all the things that you've checked off on your list, but yet you're missing the deep fulfillment that you were expecting, which you had all the things <laugh>

Marie Magdalena Wolf (07:28):

Right. Yeah. And you know, this links back to that worthiness piece that I think we're gonna be, we're gonna keep on talking about, because we are brought up to believe that our value is conditional. So we are only worth the success of the money or, or the lifestyle or whatever it is or the good grades. You know, it start in school for me was so predominant and we forget that our worth is, you know, we can't put a price tag on it. We are worthy because are. all of us each, every one of us. And I feel like when we start by this, then we can allow ourselves to have our desires for money or because it's a beautiful desire also to wanna have money, to wanna feel abundant, wanna feel that our needs are met, wanna serve with more ease in our lives. So I think it's very important to not make money. Like the bad guy it's says by guy, like it is important, but maybe reframing like what within us are we connecting to in order to get there? And if I'm worthy inherently, because I am create so much peace and ease and like I can show up more, more in myself, you know, and I can welcome my desires. And so, yeah, I really feel like it starts that like I am worthy. And from that face of deserving of pleasure, I create success that is in pleasure. So it's really about changing our beliefs.

Amanda Testa (08:50):

Oh my gosh. So much yes. To that. Yes. I love it. It is so true. And I think, and I always see this and I don't know if you do, but it goes hand in hand that when you do start owning the worthiness and feeling better in your own physical being, and body and learning how to, you know, bring more pleasure into your life in all the ways, then it becomes more lucrative. You bring in more of what you want. And maybe, maybe if maybe if even make more money is not on your agenda, that will still happen. Right. And I find it too in couples, like when they're connecting, when they're having great connection, when they're have great sex, they start bringing in more of what they want. Right. Amazing things start happening outside of the bedroom too, because it is like, we're, we can't separate ourselves.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (09:31):

I know this is so important, right? This is this aliveness. And this is what, sometimes I know it's tricky in the messaging because we know we talk to people who just want better sex. And the beauty of our work is like, not only do they get this, but they get so much more than this because it's an internal fulfillment. It's like a reconnection to self to your soul in your body. It's like an, alivenesss magnetism. And it's true when you help a couple, oh my God, we can't talk so much about relationship dynamics. But when each partner grows into that worthiness and shares it with each other, they're ready. Not only as individuals, but as a couple. And they bring better things for the home the family. Yeah. It is true. It is beautiful and so important.

Amanda Testa (10:20):

Yeah. And I mean, and sometimes on that road, like you say, people come for the great sex, but there's all these other things they get. And also there's a lot of things that often are uncovered <laugh> right? Because we are often very unaware of what might be happen on a subconscious level or all the things that we've experienced in lives that are showing up to keep us from feeling that we are worthy or feeling that we deserve what we want. And so oftentimes, you know, the journey might not look like you think it will <laugh> because then you start unwinding all these different things that you've experienced and like really working through those to get to a place where you can then have the great sex. And sometimes, you know, there's, there's a journey involved, right? <laugh>

Marie Magdalena Wolf (10:58):

Yeah. The journey I wanna say, almost never looks like what you think is gonna look like <laugh>,

Amanda Testa (11:05):

Especially

Marie Magdalena Wolf (11:06):

Through coaching and sexuality coaching. What we do is still emerging is still new. I think for a lot of people, they have to understand like what it is about. And like you say, working with a, a subconscious mind and a subconscious beliefs and listening to the body, cuz the body's gonna tell us what they are is, is new. And it's so fascinating cuz you think sex coaching is about, you know, different strokes and different speeds and different toys. And, and yes, of course this is important knowing your anatomy is important, but more importantly is your beliefs. And really like that's why speaking about money and success and work is important because I see a lot of people who stay stuck in their perception of sex. For example, you know, for a lot of us, we get into our twenties and we start exploring sexuality. We dating and being single and dating and having sex for a subconscious mind is a very different thing than being engaged or being married or being committed, no matter the, the relationship or agreement, right?

Marie Magdalena Wolf (12:05):

Just this idea of commitment and building, it's a very different things. And we have modeled that our parents didn't necessarily have the greatest relationship for a lot of us and, and all of those beliefs start to kick in at different stages. So that's why I think in relationships I've seen for myself sometimes I'm like, oh my God, but I was so free. And I was so sexual and I, and like my quality of desire has changed. Yeah. But I'm in different situation. So my subconscious is turning on different little softwares, you know, different, different beliefs. And then I get to work with that.

Amanda Testa (12:39):

Yes. And you know, something else that it's making me think of when you are really getting into understand where your beliefs come from and how to kind of work with the body, what's coming up around that and reframing them is what often comes up too. That like you mentioned before, these taboo things, there's a lot of shame. And so I would love if you would speak to the shame for a moment.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (13:01):

Oh my God. Yes. Shame such a big one. Shame. It's so important to first of all, welcome shame because it's one of the emotions that is the hardest to feel for is shame. And there is fear. I think that is the hardest to feel. And even like just this week I did a session with a client. It was all about shame and reframing her relationship to that. And so much empowerment came from this and what I think it's so important for our audience to really understand and hear over and over again. It's the thing that we don't like. The thing that block us, the emotions that are heavy are protectors. Like I see it over and over again in session, when we ask the question, what role does that serve? And we are in a very deep, almost like a hypnosis kind of state. The answer is always, I am a protector.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (13:54):

And so shame is a protector. And we know, you know, from, I don't know if it's like sociology or where the research comes from, but that we as humans are, are social creature and shame is a way to regulate our behavior in community. Right? So shame has a function to keep us surviving and evolving as a species. But then we realized that, you know, some old, like some, some of this shame doesn't serve us so to speak, right? So we understand it has a function. We understand, we took on shame to protect ourselves growing up. So if our parents say masturbation is so bad and blah, blah, blah, and we feel shame as a way to be loved as a way to stay accepted. And then you keeps on going up, maybe your school mates are shaming you when you're like, you know, a teenager and about your body or your sexual preferences.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (14:48):

And then, and then shame stays there like, oh my God turns on to protect us every time we wanna express more of ourselves. So dealing with shame in our coaching work is just so important because it's just gonna be there. And you know, I remember Layla saying something in our, something, you know, the few things that stayed with you. Like they, I remember her saying that don't remember what the context was, but she say, I eat shame for breakfast. And for me was really the reminder that, oh, every time I expand, every time I show up, every time I take risk, I'm gonna feel ashamed. Like, and I'm gonna hold myself and feel and do all the things I know how to do and eat it for breakfast and go on <laugh>. So yes.

Amanda Testa (15:32):

I mean, it's so true. We have these natural rhythms of expansion and contraction. And so as we're on this path of growth of expansion of more pleasure or even more money or whatever it is, there's gonna be discomfort in that because our nervous system really wants to keep us safe. It wants to have things remain as they are when there's change, then there's fear. And it's like, eh, and so oftentimes you will have a big expansion and then maybe the next day you're like, Ugh, there's a compression that happens. And it's kind of just being aware of that, to know, okay, I know that after I expand, then there is gonna be a contraction. So how can I hold myself through that contraction? And how do I plan for that? Because just knowing it's gonna happen, the acceptance part and the awareness can be so helpful and healing to know. Right?

Marie Magdalena Wolf (16:20):

Yeah. So helpful. And then we develop a new relationship to shame and we can't even like give it a new role within us. Like that's a thing that my client was doing is like shame first was a protector. And then she said that we chat was so cool. She said, oh, I'm gonna make it a piece that allows me to be funny. Like, and so she transformed inside herself and gave it a new role, a new function in her empowerment, connecting to her empowerment and knowing like, so in this conversation, I think when we wanna move away, not move away, but let's say transform shame. We need safety. And I, as you know, you and I like safety is the cornerstone of what we do. Helping people feel safe in their sexuality and their pleasure and their orgasm and their expansion so safe. When you practice feeling safe in your nervous system, not just in your mind, but in your body like regulating, then shame is so much easier to transform because it does and have a rule anymore. If you feel safe, then you don't need that shame.

Amanda Testa (17:16):

And it's such a like, like you say, safe safety is the cornerstone is the number one thing, feeling safe enough to tune into what you want and to be able to voice it, name it, and to be able to receive it. Those are three big keys around that too. And the safety is the number one thing. And like you say, you're like, well, how, how go about feeling more safe in, in wanting more, but you can easily, I mean, that's actually part of the process. You're like, well, what would it look like if you have X amount of dollars in your bank account, how does that feel to you? Like, does it feel, do you feel an openness? Do you feel, you know, kind of an expansion in your body or does it feel scary or do you feel like compression in your chest? Like kind of noticing what's coming up, whether it's around X amount of dollars in your bank account or X amount of orgasms in an experience with your partner, right? Like it can be anything, but that is such

Marie Magdalena Wolf (18:03):

A good way

Amanda Testa (18:04):

To discern that. Yeah, exactly. And at the same time, <laugh>,

You know, for me, I see

Marie Magdalena Wolf (18:12):

This like three spheres relationship, which we often equal to love, uh, sex, which we equal to orgasm and pleasure and aliveness and then money, which we equals to abundance and wealth and freedom. Right. So I see these three spheres and for me, they, we have to like, how do they intersect or don't intersect and can we bring them closer to each other within ourselves? Um, because I see them as facets of the same side of us as us, our capacity to receive in our capacity to communicate, connect with and exchange. So safety, you know, and we're talking about sex and money, the most charged topics in, in society really. I don't see what is more charged than sex and money.

Amanda Testa (18:53):

Yeah. It's so true. And like you say, like, I just picture like the VIN diagram of bringing all this together and like what happens when these things come together? And I think sometimes again, it's like opening up the spectrum of what that looks like of what sexuality is of what abundance. And maybe it might not look like you think it might look right, because when you kind of open the potential of what is possible, there's space for something new there's space for something different. Now, when I think about that, cuz oftentimes you might think, well, if I'm sexual, how can I show up to work like that? Well, there's always a dial, right? You can always have a dial of how you express yourself. So maybe when you're with your partner, your sexual expression looks different. Your aliveness looks different than when you are in an important business meeting, but your aliveness can still be turned on in a different way. Right? It's like being excited and turned onto whatever it is you're doing in that moment. Right. Ooh,

Marie Magdalena Wolf (19:48):

I love that, Amanda. I think this is beautiful that you talk about the dial and the fact that we can raise the level, like turn on, turn up or turn down the volume, but still stay true to ourselves because I think part of the fears of sexual awakening is, oh my God, I'm gonna be too much. I'm gonna be uncontrollable. I'm gonna be horny all the freaking time for men and for women, no matter the gender, like for men also fear, they fear of being in their sexual power because of, you know, the society we live in. So people tend to shut themselves off and, and repress because they're afraid, oh my God, if I turn it on, this is over.

This is over my life is over <laugh>

Marie Magdalena Wolf (20:28):

And actually you're right. Part of safety is knowing that it almost like it's a light that can shine brighter or less bright, but at the CORe of uss, we are alive at the Core of us.

Amanda Testa (20:39):

And I like to think of it like as kind of like a charisma, right? When you think about someone who is charismatic and fun, and you can tell the people who walk into a room and just have that energy that draws you in, right. You can feel it versus someone who might be more shut down or more, you know, not really feeling good in themselves. And it's normal that we'll go through those experiences. Cuz I mean, I think we could, all I know for my own experience, there was a long time of my life where I was totally miserable in my body and hated myself. And you know, it took me a while to move through that. But I feel like for the first, I don't know, 20 something years of my life, I probably wished that I looked different or wish that my body was different or wish that I was different or I wasn't good enough because I wasn't skinny enough or whatever the story I was telling myself was <laugh> right. And then you realize at some point like, well who's telling me this, this is like, this is what you know, I'm seeing around me or this is what my, the magazines are telling me or this is what the culture is telling me, which is truly a bunch of BS.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (21:39):

<laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative>

Amanda Testa (21:40):

Right.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (21:41):

For sure. And you know what I noticed, that's in interesting around body image. I was thinking about this the last few months. I, first of all, I used to wanna be really, really skinny when I was a teenager in my twenties and now I'm like gain some boob or gain some ass and I'm like welcoming it all. So it's so funny how those standards change. Even internally, those standards of what we think beauty is or attraction is. And what's funny to notice is that my body actually hasn't changed much in the last 20 years or 25 years. Even my weight hasn't changed much, but my self love is completely different, which means really it's an internal game, you know, it's like, yeah, it's, this is so fascinating. And it really shows how beliefs work with it. Like now I love myself more and I embrace my pussy and I embrace my breasts.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (22:27):

I love my breasts, all parts of, of myself I used to hate and they haven't changed. It's my, it's the love that I give to them that I has changed. And, and I think as a result, I feel more beautiful. And as a result, I am more beautiful because I feel more confident, you know, I really think it's connected, you know, and I try to partner who finds me beautiful because I own it. And I allow him to reflect it back to me, to versus before was like secretly wanting it. But at the same time being like so afraid of it,

Amanda Testa (22:54):

I love how you just said, I allow him to reflect that back to me. And I think this is bringing up another point that I know we wanted to talk about around receptivity and being able to receive the good, right. It's like how comfortable would you feel to just be standing there naked and having someone adore and worship you and compliment you and just like tell you how amazing you are. How, how would that feel? Well, it feels amazing. And, but it might not feel it might be hard at first, right? Sometimes I do. We were talking about this the other day because I've changed so much in how I view myself. It's sometimes hard for me to put myself back into my mindset of how it used to be. And I think, thank God, but it's possible for anyone, right? Like you said, you just have such, my body hasn't changed that much. And actually I've probably gained like 20 pounds in the past few years and there's still so much like love and feeling good in my body. And it doesn't matter to me like it once did. And maybe that comes with age too. But I think it's a lot of work of self acceptance and appreciating who you are as you are. I'm like what this vessel is capable of. Right.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (23:54):

And yeah. To

Amanda Testa (23:55):

Receive people appreciating it. Yeah.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (23:57):

It's a word like it's because you know, it's the same thing with money. It's the same thing with pleasure. It's the same thing with being found at attractive and being successful. Like sometimes we, I mean the game is internal and we don't realize that we want something, but we're so afraid of that. We block ourselves from receiving them and through the coaching work and just self, self heating and self development, we start to see that we are the one afraid of ourselves in our power and blocking it. And so if we talk about being found attractive or I would've been terrified to be with the men who would see the Goddess in me, like I would not even, I have allowed this kind of men in my life. And when I started to give it to myself, doing mirror work, massaging my pussy, massaging, my breast, looking at myself, feeling all the ness and grossness and just moving to the emotions.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (24:44):

And then I attracted a man who sees me this way and it's beautiful. Cause then it's a virtual cycle. The more I receive it, the more he feels free to offer to me. And I offer it to him and it expands and it expands and it expands. And I think receiving, we can only receive all this goodness that we want in life when we feel safe in it. And it goes back to the dial. You know, we were just talking about this idea. Like it is safe for me to be sexy. It is safe for me to be sexy and spiritual and smart and share my gifts and make money doing this and be compensated in a delicious way. It is safe to be worshiped by my partner. Like those levels of safety, because since it was not modeled to us a conscious mind that no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (25:28):

Like being married means fighting all the time. Being married means fighting about money and fighting about not having sex. Oh my God, this is what I had around me growing up, you know? And then we try to normalize it when it's not normal. So it's really about changing the stories and the trauma and, and realizing, and sisterhood love. We know sisterhood is such a big part of it. Like for me being around women like human, all the beautiful women and not just women, like just expensive human in our community that are owning themselves and their truth. That makes me feel safe cuz I know I'm not gonna be rejected if I shine. Or if I say my relationship is amazing, I know I'm gonna be accepted.

Amanda Testa (26:08):

I think that's so true. Like the community aspect, because healing happens in community, right? We are not meant to be in isolation. And I do find that's what sometimes I love about just the group aspect of finding a community that feels supportive, right? Finding that environment where you can be your true self and be celebrated in it and have the people reflect back your amazingness and having friends that like  mirror how amazing you are or partners that mirror how amazing you are. And I think that is, you know, something that you might have to cultivate and it can take time. And I think that just is to name the real challenge of that. I know I've talked about this recently on the podcast of just like the challenge of community, but, and I, and it's funny cuz today I was on another meeting and, and someone was, was talking about Bumble BFF, which I've never heard of, but apparently it's a way to connect with friends to make friends Bumble BFF.

Amanda Testa (26:57):

So I was like, oh, there you go. Here's a tool. If you wanna try to build some community, <laugh>, you know, finding  those people that uplift you. And that's what I think is so important because you can't truly be yourself unless you can also have that reflected in others. Sometimes when you, when you feel like you have to numb who you are or mute who you are or there's all the kinds of different words for it, tall poppy syndrome or whatever, the thing that you don't wanna shine to bRight? Because then you'll feel bad or you'll make other people feel bad. It's like, no, you wanna be in an environment where everyone is the brightest star because there's a million bright stars. There's galaxy that is unfathomable full of bright stars. And we all have room to be as bright and brilliant as we wanna be. We're not taking away from anyone else. We're not going anyone else we're just magnifying each other's brilliance. The more we do that, right? Oh,

Marie Magdalena Wolf (27:44):

I love, I love it. I really like felt the image come alive and I saw the stars above and I was like, what a brilliant metaphor. It's so true. It's such, we're just adding more brilliance to the universe. Like this is ultimately we're meant to be. And it's you're right. It's a very vulnerable conversation because sometimes changing and owning our pleasure and owning our dire for wealth wealth in all the forms of the money being included. Let's not shy away from talking about money. It's a big part of life and it's, I believe it's energy. So it's accessible to everybody. You have to be willing to expand your community and maybe some relationships are gonna change and maybe you're gonna let go of some friendships. So let go of some relationships or set clear boundaries with your family around it. And that's part of the journey. That's part of the journey to trust that you're being an inspiration and that the people that see you as who you are, will come into your life and you don't have to. Yeah, you don't, you don't have to force your yourself to be something else. So you keep community. Yeah.

Amanda Testa (28:48):

I appreciate you saying that because you mentioned about how things change, things might change. Right. And that does feel scary and hard. And so, you know, maybe would you feel okay. Talking a little more about that because I think that is a big fear that people have like, well, yes. What if I do change? And what if my community changes and there's fear in that, but what's on the other, their side of that. Right. Maybe you can share a little more about that if you don't mind.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (29:09):

Yeah. I think, I think we forget, you know, we forget that the world is a really big, amazing place and there are a lot of humans and something I see a lot in social media, we get to be trapped in echo chambers and we forget to look outside and I think it's and to, to seek what we wanna have to seek the people who shine, what we wanna have. And I think when we repress our desires, it shows up as envy and jealousy. But when we own our desires, it, it becomes inspiration. And if we feel that we can connect these people, that they are just an expression of ourselves then will allow us to start a dialogue with them. Maybe reach out to them, maybe send them a DM, maybe be in their Facebook group or follow them on Instagram or just go for, have a coffee or create a little gathering of people on a special theme like you and I wanna do right.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (30:02):

And we know we're gonna be doing it. And I think that really, really helps. But to understand that it's not personal when people want to keep us small, it's the same as shame it's crabs in the bucket phenomenon. It's a real behavioral trait of humans to feel threatened by change. And therefore to wanna make sure people around us behave the way they've always behaved. And that's not what we're meant to be. We are meant to evolve and we are meant to change. And so it's nothing personal. I think that really helps to realize that it's not personal when people do it, but we can still have very good boundaries and voice our truth and keep connecting to the people who inspire us, us. And yeah, that has helped me more than everything to be with women who celebrate me. That's why I do it with my clients all the time. And I'm sure you do too. Like celebrate, celebrate. You are love in your celebration. You are loved in your happiness. You are loved in your orgasms. You are loved because you made $5,000 or you made $10,000 or, or whatever. Or you get get celebration is the antidote this fear of losing community

Amanda Testa (31:07):

Yet. Oh, I think that is so true. And I think that's, what's so great about a lot of the communities that we're in. It is revolving around a lot of celebration, a lot of bragging, a lot of owning your wins, a lot of owning your amazingness and like talking about it, cuz that's not something that we've been taught a lot of the times either, right? It's like, you can feel intimidating to share good things about yourself or to really own that you're a freaking amazing coach or you have a huge business and all the things, but when you can share about it, it is inspiring and it is exciting and it makes you feel good because it shows you what's possible. I think that is something like you mentioned earlier, envy, and I've been reading bene brown, one's new book, the Atlas of the heart.

Amanda Testa (31:44):

I always love learning more about emotions and data around this and whatnot, but you know, really understanding what is it, the root of a lot of emotions and like envy, resentment. Those are all in the, in that same fam family. And so oftentimes when we're feeling jealous or we're feeling envious or whatever it might be, there's something that we want that we're not naming. Right. Or there's something that that person has that we want that we're not naming or we're not owning in ourselves. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I think when you feel those emotions come up, it's important to just take a, take a breath or two and just examine where you are and be like, yeah, it's totally cool that I feel this way. And I'm wondering why, like, what is it about this that's triggering to me? What is about this? That's making me feel bad or not good.

Amanda Testa (32:21):

Right. And it's maybe X, Y, Z. And then the like, well I want that. And then there's probably a part of you. That's like, well, you can't have that. That's not for you. And then you have to like work with those voices and then realize, wait a minute, this, if this is possible for them, this is possible for me. Right. Or how could I look at this in a way that it could be an inspiration versus a, a jealousy. And I think at one point I went to some, I forget some meditation retreat and I forget who this was with, but that was one of the, the lessons was around. Like we are, if we are all connected in some plane, we are all one in some plane. Then you already have what that person has. Yeah. You can just connect to it within yourself. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Marie Magdalena Wolf (32:58):

I love the, the idea of like our desires are from the divine. Like our heart and soul desire are from the divine and just letting go of all the judgements. And the thing is be like, oh, let me follow this and let me have this. And like you said, like we're saying, it's just reflecting in others. Sometimes, you know, sometimes we need permission and permission comes from seeing a others, do it and have it and it seem safe. They seem, okay, so why not us? And I feel like that's how we foster communities where we all lift each other out, you know? And I thought about something cool that we can do right now to be like, how do we brag? How about we give an example of what celebration looks like? And we brag just a little bit. You and I, what do you think?

Amanda Testa (33:41):

I love it. You go first and then I'll go. I love

Marie Magdalena Wolf (33:43):

It. All right. I brag that I'm in a, I redid my office and you can't see it cuz we are on audio. But my back drop is like bright pink and it's an accent wall and it feels so good. And it was a challenge, but I remodeled my office and I feel I could queen in my Pussy portal. I feel so good. I brag that I have amazing soul clients who transform and I excited to work with me. And I show up with love. I brag that my partner is loving and amazing and growing. I write that we just moved into a new house and we're saving money by a house. I brag that I masturbated last night, I self pleasured Last night he was sleeping next to me. And he was like, I love you so much. I was like, yeah, I just need it for myself. And it was with my beautiful crystal dildo and it felt so good. And I connected to my desires for my pleasure. So yeah, this is what I brag about for now. <laugh>

Amanda Testa (34:38):

Yes, yes, yes. So, well bragged so well bragged I am celebrating you and I just wanted to shine too in looking at you in your beautiful backdrop and it's gorgeous and there's this beautiful, like gold artwork behind you and it looks gorgeous like this halo of, um, amazingness shining from your head <laugh>

Marie Magdalena Wolf (34:57):

Oh

Amanda Testa (34:58):

Yes. And I will brag. I want to celebrate that. I just, the most epic vacation with my family went to the mountains and I just love, love, love the nature. I just get off on nature so much. It turns me on to every cell of my being. And I just love, love, love, immersing myself in that and totally disconnecting. I was hardly on my phone or the electronics and it felt so, so good to be. And just like, so see, as far as the eye could see, and even now as I'm remembering it, I'm just like, oh, that feels so good. And I had such a good time connecting with my family and I just want to celebrate my epic, epic relationship and my amazing husband who is just so sexy to me and so handsome. And I love how we flirt all day long back and forth.

Amanda Testa (35:41):

And like, I go sit on his lap and give him a lap dance, when he’s on a zoom call and all the things that we do and just, um, the playfulness that we have and just how it is possible for things to get better and better over time. We've been together for, I don't know, 14 years now, something like that. And it's still so, so good. And I like get so excited and tingly when he, when he, when he looks at me and I love that that's still possible after all this time. And I will celebrate just the amazing clients that I get to work with and how beautiful it is to watch their journeys unfold and how amazing it is to see them step into to new levels of pleasure and joy in their life and their relationship, and really claiming what they want and being able to set boundaries for themselves and actually get things that they want. It's so amazing. I also will just brag that I love my work and I love also that I get to help steward the next realm of sex and relationships coaches as I'm one of the senior teachers for the coaching certification that we did years ago. And I just also celebrate that how fun it is to do the work that we do. Right. My husband's always laughing. He's like you have the best job <laugh> I really do. <laugh> yay. Okay. That is some feeling good. Lets talk about how good it feels to brag. 

Marie Magdalena Wolf (36:57):

Seeing you and I celebrate you in your growth, in your amazing skills as a teacher and mentor and badass leader and a sexy mama who gets to be fucked and love in the way that she wants and her husband, husband and all the goodness.

Amanda Testa (37:14):

Oh yeah, this is so fun. Right? So I'll invite, if you're listening right now, maybe to take a moment, you can brag to wherever you are, brag to your kid, brag to the car, brag to the dishes, whatever you're doing right now, just say three things you wanna brag and celebrate. And we're gonna just give you a minute to do that. Yeah. We're gonna celebrate you.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (37:32):

We celebrate you in the little things and in the big things that you proud of, that you love about yourself, that you love about your life and we celebrate your heartfelt desire, whatever desire is like bubbling up, you know that you can have it, you are worthy in every cell of your being of having it.

Amanda Testa (37:51):

Yes. Yes. I just so love talking to you Marie. We could talk for hours. So I know I, and I know we've been talking about we we're, we're Suming up a pretty amazing retreat around the wealthy orgasmic woman.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (38:05):

Yeah. I love

Amanda Testa (38:06):

To follow us to stay tuned, to see when that will be. <laugh>

Marie Magdalena Wolf (38:09):

I know we're excited basically this idea we've we've been talking about how, you know, relationship to money and relationship to pleasure are similar in our capacity to feel safe and worthy of receiving. And, and we just wanna help other people feel safe in their desires and feel safe in their experience and just expand their capacity to receive so that they can share more of their gifts with the world and you know, feel highly compensated for their wisdom, that we all have wisdom. And also in pleasure. And basically what we're doing is like changing the paradigm. We are rewiring pleasure and success together. So we can do it from a new rich, loved, you know, relaxed way and make it like make it something that is possible for, for people.

Amanda Testa (38:56):

Yes. So if everyone listening wants to learn more about Marie, Marie, let me know if there is any, you know, where's the best way for people to connect with you and learn more about your coaching and working with you.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (39:07):

Yes. So you can follow me at Marie Magdalena Wolf on Facebook and Instagram. I think on Twitter now I had my assistant open an account and I'm just repurposing concept and I'm like, oh, and I have a free Facebook group free for now. Maybe not forever called holy Fuck Yes. Cuz holy. Yes, for me, is everything together? The holiness and the sexuality and saying yes to what's alive within us. That's what it's about. So join us in holy. Fuck.Yes. And you can email me at Marie@holyfuckyes. Dot com and ask me questions. I have three beautiful coaching programs, one for men, one for women and one for couples. If you are non-binary we can talk and create a custom package for you and I work with people over six months. So when we work one on one together, it's a beautiful journey cuz we don't change these old beliefs in overnight and it's good to take our time to integrate them in our nervous system. So it's beautiful six months journey of sacred, sexy transformation for you to feel sexy and have the pleasure and the healthy relationships that you want. 

Amanda Testa (40:17):

Beautiful. Thank you so much. And I'll make sure to put in the show notes, all of this, and I'm wondering Maria, as we close, if there's any less words you'd like to share or if maybe there was a question that you'd wished I'd ask that I didn't ask.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (40:27):

Well, I just wanna say that I love you so much and that you're badass and that I'm so grateful that you're having me on and how you are an example. And I don't know, I'm makes me, it brings that tears to my eyes. Like you're an example of a woman who is beautiful and successful who wants to lift each other up and who brings on other people on your channel to talk about themselves and you don't see others as competition. You see others as sisters and as peers and colleagues and you know there is room for everybody and you just showing the way. And I have chill lot over my body. Like I'm just really, really grateful for you to do that and to just lead the way and show up and include us. You inspire me.

Amanda Testa (41:08):

Mm. I love you so much too. And I just really want to, uh, just thank you for all your support. You've given me over the years and I just your celebration and I love you inspire me with your beautiful writing. And if you don't follow Marie, she's an amazing writer. So you do need to follow her. Her writing is so beautiful and just, you inspire me with your unapologetic being and how you just take up all the space and are just so, so true to yourself and like really honoring your desires. So thank you.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (41:35):

Thank you. And you know, just, Hey here, one thing I wanna add up to this, it's like, mm-hmm, <affirmative> celebrating our expression and you say me taking up space in my mind. I'm like, there's so much more space I can take. And I really feel like we're not too much. We are beautiful. And we can't take up space and is room for us to take up space in our garden, in our house, in the world, in the online space. When we walk in the street, just like be in your body, take up space. This is safe. Find the people who love you in this. Yeah. Too much is actually maybe not enough. So too much is just the right amount. This to say that <laugh>.

Amanda Testa (42:15):

Yes. Well thank you so so much, Marie, and thank you everyone. Who's listening. I so value you and thank you so much for tuning in every week. And please, if you've enjoyed this episode, share with a friend, if you a friend that you know would love it, please share then. Um, thank you so much, Marie, for being here.

Marie Magdalena Wolf (42:29):

I love you. Bye.

Amanda Testa (42:32):

Thank you so much for listening to the find your feminine fire podcast. This is your host Amanda test. And if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden and invitation. I invite you to reach out. You can contact me@amandatestthe.com slash activate, and we can have a heart to heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook and the group find your feminine fire group. And if you've enjoy this podcast, please share with your friends, go to iTunes and give me a five star rating and a raving review. So I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

EPISODE 208: Art of Flirtation

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Would you like to master the art of flirtation in your relationship? If you’re looking to keep the playful spark alive and well, this skill is a must. This week on the pod I’m going to show you why flirting can be so fun and how to get better at it starting today. This is Amanda Testa, your host, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast.

So I love flirting. I think it is such a fun way to stay connected, and I will just brag on my amazing husband for a moment because he is a master woo-er, and I always joke about when we first got together because when we were dating, he did the most romantic things. Number one, he was up front and honest which was quite refreshing, and he didn't play games, he was really up front about his story and what he wanted. 

0:01:03

I really appreciated that. Number two, he sent me love letters in the mail, right? Such a beautiful thing. He also, one time, came over with a card and gave me a foot massage and left. This is the beauty of flirting. It’s giving without intention of receiving something in return. He was intentional with what he wanted and shared it with me and inspired me to do the same and, really, thus an epic flirtation began that we still continue to this day. And so, so many people ask how do we keep the flirting alive, and how do you do it, and what if you're not a flirter, what if it feels hard for you? What if your partner doesn't flirt in a way you want them to, what can you do? And so, I’m gonna share a little bit about that today.

Number one about flirtation is it really keeps the energy in your relationship alive and flowing. Like anything, it needs nourishment to thrive, right -- your relationship. Specifically, in this podcast, I’m gonna talk more to flirting in relationship versus, like, when you meet someone, but you can use these skills in any situation, really, because flirting can just be a fun way to be in your own energy  and share that with others, right? 

0:02:06

It doesn't always have to be with a goal in mind, and I love how Mama Gena says in her book The School of Womanly Arts -- she says: 

“Flirtation is nothing more or less than enthusiastic self-love and experiencing it in every fiber of your being and allowing that love to overflow to others. The gift of flirting leaves the giver refreshed and the receiver enhanced. It is not currency; it is something that is done for the sheer pleasure of it, not necessarily with any goal in mind.”

I love that, and I think it’s so true, and if you are flirting, will you sometimes get things that you want, yes, and will you have fun, yes, but it’s done just for the pure joy of doing it, for the pure joy of sharing your love with others, and loving yourself is a big part of it too. 

So I want to share a few keys around flirtation. There’s so much science done on this, and so, I also like to just bring in really understanding who you’re with or who this person is. 

0:03:02

If you're in a long-term relationship, you know what the person that you’re with probably likes and doesn't like, so always keeping that in mind. 

And so, when you are going to flirt, you want to pay attention to the other person with your whole body, right? You can start by being in your own body, and sometimes this takes practice, right? Focusing on what you love about yourself, focusing on what feels good in you, focusing on the playfulness that you might feel or maybe any excitement or turn on, or maybe focusing on the goodness of your own body or just the warmth in your heart, right? Even taking some breaths into your heart, right? Even taking some breaths into your heart before you connect with someone can just bring in more openness. 

So when you pay attention to that person with your whole body, you can be aware of their energy, of their state, and what’s going on for them, right? You can feel if your body wants to lean in. I think leaning in is such a beautiful way to flirt just by bringing your body closer to that person and notice are they leaning in or are they pulling away and really honoring what you're sensing from the other person. Do you feel a call to lean in more, and are they responding? 

0:04:03

If not, honoring the cues, right? Really being aware of your partner’s cues when they are inviting you in or when they are like maybe now’s not a good time, and you can try again later because we’re always busy during the day, and sometimes someone might not want to flirt, and sometimes they do, and so, that’s important to tune into. When you are paying attention to the other person with your entire body, you can feel into that. You can feel into their openness, or are they, you know, writing an email or something and they’re busy in this moment and you can come back later, right?

Another thing, when you are paying attention to someone with your whole body, is you can subtly mirror what they’re doing. There’s a lot of studies on this, on mirroring. You don't want to copy exactly what the person is doing but just maybe mirroring their body position. Mirroring their body movements in a subtle way can actually bridge connection. This actually can work in a lot of situations. Not just in relationships, but, you know, anyone you’re trying to connect with. Maybe if you do a little mirroring you can find a connection.

0:04:58

Also, when you are paying attention to someone with your whole body, then you can notice maybe when might be a good time to touch. I think showing affection through touching can be so beautiful, right? It’s, again, touching without expectation, touching to give the touch, touching to show affection without expecting anything in return, and if you get it, great, and if you don’t great, right? 

You're not touching to get something; you’re touching to give affection and to play and to be flirtatious, right? So maybe you touch their low back or maybe you give them a hug or a kiss, maybe a passionate kiss. Sometimes kissing without expectation can be super hot and fun, right? Press your hands on their body. Hug, and when you hug, really let your bodies press together, not just one of those pat-on-the-back hugs but a hug where you’re touching each other’s bodies, right? A

Also noticing when you are with someone for a while how they like to be touched, and make sure you're touching them in the way they want to be touched, right? Not necessarily how you want to touch them, but how they want to be touched. Maybe you are so called to grab their butt but they don’t like that? Maybe you can touch their low back. Maybe they love when you touch their ass, and that’s great, and you can just grab with abandon, but knowing what kind of touch your partner enjoys can be so powerful, and if you don't know, guess what? You can ask. 

0:06:08

You can even just say, “You know what I’m missing is more touch, and I just would love to know how would you love for me to touch you?” That can be a great conversation starter, right? Would it be okay if when you're working at your desk, if I can come behind you and massage your shoulders or whatever it is, but ask if you don't know.

The other thing about paying attention to the other person with your whole body is, then, you can also make eye contact with that person, right? Looking in their eyes, that is such an underrated connection tool, and I know people can laugh and turn their nose up at it and think it can feel corny, but sometimes just giving someone your presence and your eye contact is a beautiful thing. Whether it’s your partner, whether it’s your kids, whether it’s your dog, right, your pet, sometimes just that eye contact can be a beautiful thing that we don’t get enough of because, in this day and age, we’re so often on our screens and on our phones and busy, that just taking that time to really look at someone means a lot, and it’s important. So I think that those are some keys around paying attention to the other person with your whole body.

0:07:05

Some other ways that are really key for flirtation, I think, are actively listening to the person that you’re talking to or your partner, right? Actively listen to what they're saying, and remember the small details that they share with you so that you can bring them up later. 

Show them that you care about them by paying attention to what they’re telling you. Even if it’s something so boring to you, to them it may be so important. For example, my daughter loves some silly show that I could care less about, but for her, she loves to talk about it, and so, I am going to remember the small details of the people and the show that she shares with me so I can bring it up later. Then she feels heard and she feels seen, right? Just think about when you share something with your partner when they ask about it later. How good does that make you feel, right? So remembering to listen to what your person or what the person that you’re with is saying, and you can bring those details up later just to show that you're listening. Again, listening is a big key, and we can talk about this for days, but I’m just gonna touch briefly on that right now.

0:08:01

The other thing is being silly and having fun together, right? Make them laugh. Maybe there are certain inside jokes that you share. Maybe there’s a funny thing that you experienced once that you want to talk about again. Maybe you just want to be silly together, right? We, often, are so serious that we forget the playfulness. 

What could you do to add in more silliness and play to what you're doing? Maybe it is adding in some silly sexual inuendos to what you're doing, right? Just having more fun and being silly. Making them laugh can be just such a fun way, ‘cause when you laugh together, too, you're also releasing stress, you're releasing energy, and it can be so connecting. I know there’s nothing better than when my husband and I have one of those moments where we just laugh so hard that we can't stop, and we laugh and laugh and laugh. [Giggles] Sometimes we have stories that we go back to, and we’re like, “Oh, my gosh, remember that time…?” And it still makes us just cry with laughter, and that is such a fun way to connect.

Another great way to flirt is with compliments. Now, not using some corny line or something inauthentic, but an authentic compliment can be such a great way to flirt, and some keys around this would be how can you let your person know that you desire them, right? 

0:09:09

Sharing how attractive they are to you. Sharing what you love about them, what turns you on about them, what you appreciate about them, and making it a daily thing. How can you, daily, share what you love about your partner. 

How can you let them know every day that you desire them and that you want them and you're happy to be with them? Especially in long-term relationships, it can get kind of stagnant. You can just take each other for granted, and, really, we have no clue what’s around the corner so it is so important to be loving and share that with the person that you're with, and how good does it feel when your partner lets you know that they desire you, that you are desired, that you're wanted? That feels so good, and so, it’s awesome to offer that to the person, right? 

Mention some aspect of their personality that you love, and also compliment them in front of others when you have the opportunity. This is great to do for kids too. They love to be praised -- having you brag about them in public, right? Maybe it’s something that -- you know, again, for your partner, when you have the opportunity to compliment them in front of others and really share your appreciation for them.

0:10:07

You can do this in so many different ways, right? Maybe it’s writing love notes. Maybe it’s sending sexy texts. Maybe if you know your partner loves getting flowers, you don’t have to go and spend $75, but you could. You could get extremely extravagant, or you could just go and pick up a $5 bouquet at the grocery store, right? If you know your partner loves something, how can you maybe bring that into it, right? Sending them small tokens, letting them know that you are thinking of them. That’s basically the key, right? When you are feeling loving and you want them to know, right, how can you let them know that you are thinking of them? Maybe you’re out and about and you see something that reminds you of them, and you snap a picture of it, and you send it to them, right? Letting them know that you are thinking of them in ways that you enjoy and in ways that you think they might enjoy. I think sometimes people, often -- well, what do I say if I wrote a love letter? What do I say if I write a love note? I think you can just let your imagination have fun with it, you know? Share what you appreciate about them. Share something that you’re grateful for, you know? 

0:11:03

I think this is a beautiful thing that has been passed on in my family. I guess I can thank my grandfather because he was so loving to my grandmother. He was always writing her love notes. He was always drawing pictures, writing love notes, sticking them in her books, sticking them around the house, sticking them in drawers, and I just thought that was the sweetest thing, right? Then my mom and dad always used to leave notes for one another, and my husband and I do that too. Even now -- I love it -- my mom will come to visit, and she’ll write little notes and leave them around the house, and I’ll find them in random places, and it’s the best to just get a little love note. 

And so, how could you be playful in that realm? What if you just have a little post-it pad, right, and just write down 25 post-its, maybe one little thing you appreciate about them, right? Like, I love your blue eyes or I love the shape of your ass or I love when you make me laugh or I love the top of your lip or I love the way you parent or I love how you're so fun when you play with the dog or whatever it is, right? Just writing down and hiding them around. 

0:12:00

Hide them in their shoes. Hide them in their pockets. Hide them in a jacket. Hide them in a book. Hide them around in drawers. It can be just a fun way to play and to, again, let the person know that you are thinking about them and that you appreciate them and that you love them. It never gets old, and I know sometimes people might be listening and be like ah, this is so corny or this is so cheesy, but, you know what, like everything, you have to nourish it and love it like a plant. Your relationship, too, needs the same things. Like anything that you want to nourish and thrive, you have to give it attention and love and all of those things.

So I love sending those little reminders in whatever way feels good, and you know, if you really want to get crazy, you can go to the store and buy a ton of cards. You can get on Amazon, order a package of cards, and just write notes. Have a package of cards that you can use if you want to write a love note. You can even drop it in the mailbox at the post office if you want them to get it in the mail which is super fun ‘cause sometimes my husband still does that, and I love it so much. I’m like ooh, I got a special letter! Ah, it’s so fun, and the other fun thing about love notes, which I think is great, is if you're with someone who is nostalgic or likes to hold onto things, you can reread them again and again which is so beautiful. 

0:13:09

I’m that type of person, right? I love to look at old pictures, and I love to look at old love notes, and that’s just who I am, and so, my husband knows that about me and likes to see me in the box of love letters reading them. I’m like, “Oh, remember when you sent this to me?” or, “Remember when I sent this to you? Oh, we used to be so --,” and then it can remind us, right? Sometimes, like everybody, we can get in a habit, and I’ll be like, you know what, one thing my husband told me when we got married is if you want more love, give more love, and sometimes if we’re in a rut or something like that I’ll be like you know what, I need to write a love note, and it does. It gets the pattern going again. We will have cycles in a relationship, right? Sometimes we’re gonna be way more playful and flirtatious, and other times we’re gonna be just surviving, and other times we’re gonna be in, maybe, a winter, and other times we’re gonna be super hot and horny for one another, and it’s just the way it is. And so, kind of honoring where you are but keeping the connection alive can be done through flirtation.

0:14:02

Some other things that I think are really powerful to note here is you tune into yourself and your own connection with yourself -- how can you tune in deeper to saying yes to what excites you, saying yes to what feels good to you. Can you take time to realize that you are important, that your needs matter, and what is it that you need, what is it that you want, and giving that to yourself, and asking that for yourself.

So maybe if you want more flirtation and your partner isn't willing or doesn't know how, you can just start the conversation. You can even say, “Hey, check out this podcast. Can we listen to it together and talk about it afterwards?” Or you can just say, “Here are some things that I think would be super fun,” and I love this jar exercise. I think I learned this from Michaela Boehm. Can’t recall but, basically, each get a piece of paper and write down things that you would love for your partner to do for you, right? It can be the most mundane thing. It can be the most extravagant thing. Really, you're just letting your imagination have fun, and you're gonna write these things down on a piece of paper with enough room in between each line that you can cut it out, and then what you're gonna do is you're gonna cut out all those things that you desire from your partner, and you’ll put them in a jar, and then you can give that to your partner and say, “Look, if you're ever thinking of something that you wanna do for me, here are some things you can choose.”

0:15:11

I remember I used to do this for my husband back in the day. I made a folder of all the things I wanted him to give me. Like, “If you're ever thinking of something you wanna give me, here you go,” because we’re not mind-readers, right? Some people think, “Well, I just want them to know what I want. I just want them to just know and sense it,” and guess what, people don't. That is putting way too much pressure on your partner and yourself that you're gonna mentally telepathy information to them. Yes, sometimes people are very intuitive, and sometimes they're not, and that’s okay, but you can ask for what you want. And so, this can be like a fun little game, that way your partner can go through those lists. Maybe they're not capable of doing all the things, and that’s okay because we also want to honor people’s limits, honor what people are capable of, but then there can be some ideas, right? If you have put a list of 25, 35 things in a jar for your partner, then they can say, “All right, well, what are some of these things that do feel doable?” It can just get their brain and their wheels turning too because they might have other ideas that they want to -- it can just be like flexing the muscle, right? 

0:16:02

We often have atrophied muscles in this department, especially if we’re in long-term relationships, and so, how can you flex the muscle in ways that feel doable as it gets stronger and stronger, and then it will be functioning just like new. And so, it can be super fun to do that. And so, by saying yes to what excites you, you can remember that, right, and share that with your partner.

Okay, I had a couple other things that I wanted to mention. Doing something helpful for the other person can also be a flirtatious act, right? So maybe you’ve been really busy or your partner’s been really busy and you notice maybe things are out of control in certain areas of the house or maybe there’s something that your partner is noticing that they complain about a lot. Maybe you can help them out in that area, right? Maybe help unload the dishes more. Maybe help offer more parenting time so your partner can have a break, right? These are very important things to do for one another, and also asking for what you need. Again, such a skill to work on is being able to ask for what you need and really state the why behind it so that your partner can get on board, right, because sharing the household responsibilities is a big thing, and sometimes going over and beyond is so appreciated, right? 

0:17:08

So that can be like acts of service, if you're familiar with the love languages. You kind of want to know what your partners’ are in a way, and I have mixed emotions about that body of work, but the key is, if you can understand what your partner likes, how they enjoy receiving love, then you can give love to them in those ways. So sometimes acts of service can be very flirtatious and fun. As long as you're enjoying it, right? Again, it’s coming from your own joy and fun. Also being spontaneous can be fun, right? We can also get stuck in ruts. What’s something new you can do together?

A couple years ago, my husband and I did an improv class together, and it was so fun. It was kind of a random idea, but we both thought it would be fun, and it was really empowering in so many ways because there’s a lot of good relationship-building skills in improv because it is all about trusting your partner and not talking over them but working with whatever they’ve given you, right? “Yes, and” versus “no, but.” It’s like yes, and how can we support one another, how can we build on what this other person’s doing, how can we be there for one another in whatever way? 

0:18:05

So, I will say, improv can be a really fun thing to do for your relationship. That can be a spontaneous thing that you might want to do and surprise each other. The thing is, when you're gonna surprise each other, try to keep in mind what your partner’s into because if they're not into the thing that you’re surprising them with, that’s really not as thoughtful as you might think it might be, right? We really have to be selfless sometimes in our relationships. Again, this is coming from a place of getting to have fun and having the pleasure around sharing your love, right?

Another thing is presence. I think presence is so underrated. Presence is what so many desire. So many times I hear this from clients, especially clients who identify as women, around wanting presence from their partner. Yes, we get busy. Yes, work’s important. Yes, providing is important, but presence is so, so important, and everyday presence. Not just Friday night we have a date, I’m gonna give you presence then and then I’m gonna be busy. No, it’s presence in the day. I love how Stan Tatkin talks about launchings and landings. Finding some way of connection in the morning, finding some way of connection when you come back together at the end of the day -- or if you leave for work and come back. These launchings and landings are so key, and finding ways to connect in little ways throughout your day. 

0:19:11

So presence, turning off your phones and truly being present with one another can be so key. The other thing is date nights, right? It can be easy to put those on the back burner or to say, “Oh, date night’s gonna be Netflix and a movie and some popcorn or whatever,” which is fine, right? 

But on occasion, getting dressed up for one another can be super fun and flirty and hot, right? How much do you love to see your partner all dapper and looking good? I love it, and I know when I put in a little effort, it goes a long way, right? I can't tell men enough -- or anyone, really -- when you're going to bed or anytime you think you want to be intimate, brush your teeth. These little things like how can I show my partner that I care by taking care of my own body, taking care of my own self. Maybe I haven’t showered in four days. Maybe they love that, right? Some people do, and I know sometimes being unshaven and unbathed is super hot, and sometimes partners like cleanliness. I mean, it really is knowing what your partner wants and how can you turn them on by giving that to them, right? 

0:20:03

How can you turn yourself on by turning your partner on? Ooh, that’s fun to think about, right? How can I turn myself on by turning my partner on ‘cause I know they love this, and it makes me super turned on when they're turned on. So I’m gonna just put in a little effort, and it really goes a long way. So not forgetting to do that for one another. It can be so easy to get in our ruts, and so, having fun and finding ways to flirt, again, you can practice this, right? You can practice this starting today, you know? Maybe I’m curious, out of all the things that I shared today if there were one or two that really struck a chord. They're like, “Mm, yeah, I definitely think I can do this, “ right? Maybe even just playing with your own energy like how can I really be in my own energy, feeling really good in myself and sharing that love with others? Even if it’s just smiling at someone.

The other day, I was out to breakfast, and I was just feeling so good, and I was smiley, and I remember smiling at this lady in line for the bathroom. I was sitting at the table, and she came over, and she was like, “That is just the best smile. Thank you for that. So often, people just don't give you any attention or are just busy on their phones. That was just such a genuine smile, and that felt so good to receive,” right? 

0:21:07

That felt good for me to give it, it felt good for her to receive it, and that lightened both of our days, right? Ah, it’s so good, and so, I’ll invite you to play with flirting, and what parts of it feel challenging to you, maybe? What parts feel easy? For the parts that feel challenging, how can you be with those, and what might you need to move through that, right? Sometimes being curious like, well, I notice when I go to flirt I feel like this ugh in my chest and maybe it’s that I never saw any flirting in my house coming along or I thought that women aren’t supposed to flirt, and that has to come from the man or whatever silly stories the conditioning of our culture has sent your way, you can unravel that and be like huh, that’s interesting. That might be why. I never saw a lot of touch in my family of origin, or I never experienced much flirting, you know? I’m kind of a serious person so maybe it’ll be hard for me to be a little more playful, but we all have it in us, right? We all have that ability, and it is such a fun way to play in your relationship. I really can't speak enough to keeping that playfulness alive and knowing yes, you’ll have cycles, but when they're good, let that run. Let it run! Have as much fun as you can.

0:22:10

So practice your flirting, and I’d love to hear how it goes for you. Please let me know. You know, really practice, right? Maybe you want to pick a totally safe circumstance to start, right? Maybe thinking of, throughout your day, how can you be more in yourself and share that essence with others in a way that turns you on, okay? [Laughs] I am so happy to have you all here listening. Thank you so much for supporting the podcast. I truly, truly can’t thank you enough, and I will look forward to seeing you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. 

0:23:06

You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. 

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

EPISODE 207: with Michelle Emmanuelle

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the podcast today. I am really excited about this topic today because I think this is something that so many deal with and we don’t often talk about. Really, what I think can happen a lot around this issue of burnout, as we will dive into, is that we are so conditioned to work hard, and do and do, and go and go, and not really listen to our body’s needs or, oftentimes, we just can't because of the structures that we live in, to be able to take the time we need to care for ourselves. And so, I’m really looking forward to talking today with Michelle Emmanuelle. Welcome so much, Michelle.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Thank you so much for having me, Amanda. I’m happy to be here with you.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and she specializes in burnout recovery, and so, I am gonna have her share a little bit more about her journey in a moment but, really, I think what I love about bringing this topic into the light more often is because so often once we can talk about it and understand that there’s actually many types of burnout. 

0:01:17

There’s actually over, I think, eight kinds of burnout did you say, Michelle?

Michelle Emmanuelle: Yes, I mean, there’s probably more. I identify eight in my programs, so I’m sure there are more, but the eight is what I talk about.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and just how it really affects us and what we can do about it. So listen in, make yourself comfortable, and I’d love for you, if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit, Michelle, about what made you so passionate about this work that you're doing now.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Great question. You know, I feel like it’s definitely been a cumulative process for me. I have been in different industries over time, and I’ve experienced it myself not realizing what it was, just the constant fatigue and the constant drain. I left what I was doing -- I was actually hired as a yoga and wellness fitness instructor at a high school in Oakland, and I created their wellness program, and that’s when I started to actually start to see the impact of stress and burnout and the high cost that it was actually costing people in terms of their livelihoods, their relationships, my students. 

0:02:23

From there, I went into becoming a wellness coach and wanted to really help people to recover from that and just realizing that there were limitations that I could do within the school system, and I felt like there’s some areas that I really feel like I can help people have that recovery and recognizing it as more long term. And so, I decided -- I was doing some of that on the side just in terms of supporting my friends and my colleagues, and I felt like this is something that is really necessary and people really need to understand the impact. I mean, people can actually be hospitalized. The impact is huge. It’s not just ugh, I’m tired, but the physical impact of burnout is very serious and needs to be taken seriously.

0:03:03

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I’m wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit more what some of the symptoms are of burnout.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Well, you know, that’s the interesting thing is that [Laughs] it really does depending on the type of burnout, but, typically, in general it’s brain fog and lack of concentration, irritability, consistent fatigue, depression, constant sense of anxiety, lack of sense of control, loss of sense of purpose and meaning in life. Oh, the list goes on. In terms of emotional, there’s just, like I said, irritability, lack of bandwidth, capacity to deal with one more thing.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Also that feeling of stuck, there’s just nothing else. You’re just on this treadmill, and there’s just nothing else but that. 

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Like I said, that’s a long list, but those are the generalities of how they can show up in the body. Lack of sleep -- sleep is also a huge one because poor sleep is a big factor in burnout as well.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and what do you think are some of the reasons that it’s so prevalent nowadays?

0:04:03

Michelle Emmanuelle: Well, I think, honestly, it’s our culture. We live in a grind culture where productivity and performance are valued and rewarded and honored in many cases at whatever the expense. There are bonuses, promotions, accolades, respect, and all those things that are actually accompanying these performance-based things that are very transactional and not sustainable, you know? So it’s been built into our culture where that’s what we value. I think now we’re getting to the time, particularly with everything with COVID, we’re starting to realize, you know, this isn't worth it. I think that’s what a lot of people are realizing for themselves. Organizations are definitely seeing this mass exodus of people like if you’re not taking care of me and my mental health, my physical health, then I’m not able to stay. 

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Just recognizing the cost that it’s really not worth paying.

0:05:01

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and it’s so true especially -- and I know working in corporate. You mentioned you work with a lot of corporations, and I think, too, in those environments, at least something I’m seeing now which is a good thing is that people are paying more attention to mental health --

Michelle Emmanuelle: Absolutely

Amanda Testa: -- and to wellness.

Michelle Emmanuelle: They are, absolutely, which is really good. That’s why, basically, I’ve pivoted in terms of how I’m presenting the burnout workshops because before I was like healthcare, wellness, and wellness sometimes felt like they thought I was talking about yoga, and they were like, well, we’re not really into that kind of thing. And so, what I’m really trying to help people understand, particularly organizations and corporations, is burnout recovery is basically helping the culture thrive. 

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Michelle Emmanuelle: You know, so my focus is working with organizations and corporations that are people-centered cultures, and my support is by offering the burnout workshops to help those cultures to thrive. So the outcome is basically what they want, but it’s also something that’s gonna help the culture. 

0:06:02

And so, it’s not just like okay, here’s a one-off workshop on mental health, now get back to work. [Laughs] You know, it’s already partnering with organizations that have that values system of being a people-centered organization and really caring about people first, recognizing that it’s the people that’s gonna bring the productivity. It’s the people, you know, that bring the innovation, that bring the changes. It’s not necessarily the data, it’s the people behind the data.

Amanda Testa: Yes, so, so powerful. I’m wondering, too, ‘cause wellness, like you say, can mean so many things, what does wellness mean to you?

Michelle Emmanuelle: Great question. It’s so funny ‘cause it changes depending on my life. After two years in COVID with everyone else, I feel like my answer is really lifestyle, you know? Before, I would say something like wellness practices, selfcare, and all those things are still true, but wellness really is a lifestyle. It really is. It’s the long haul. It’s taking my health, my mental health, my emotional health, physical health seriously enough to be consistent, and practicing and feeding myself, and doing different things that are really gonna support that quality of life that I desire. So wellness is basically how I live, you know?

0:07:17

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I love how -- it’s interesting because I’m, you know -- as more and more people become aware of wanting to contribute to more of a lifestyle that is feasible and that is less draining, if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit more about kind of the different types of burnout. I know you focus on eight, so I’d love to hear more about those if you don't mind.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Sure, sure. I am gonna tell you all about this. When I heard this, I thought it was amazing ‘cause I have always heard burnout workshops -- burnout based in very generalities -- tired, fatigue, and so, when I actually started researching I was surprised. So there are seven that are identified, and I actually added another one which makes eight, but there’s physical burnout, mental, emotional, spiritual, social, sensory, and creative. 

0:08:07

The eighth one that I’ve added is also burnout due to systemic oppression which is a very real type of burnout. So those are the eight that I identified.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Again, I’m sure there may be more, but these are the most common, and, like I said, number eight I’ve added as well.

Amanda Testa: That’s a very real important one. 

Michelle Emmanuelle: It is. 

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering if you would be open to sharing a little bit more about each of those.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Or what you can do to support yourself or find the resources that you need to work through them.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Yes, I think that one of the things that I actually try to include in the workshops is just people having that physical awareness of what’s happening in their bodies, you know? So it’s not just the cognitive, like, okay, I have the knowledge, but also the awareness of how do they know that they’re actually experiencing this? 

So a lot of times a person might be going to bed super early and still wake up completely drained and tired, but maybe they’re not physically burned out, you know? 

0:09:06

So I think the important thing is just to recognize where that is coming from -- you know, the source -- so that they can have the appropriate recovery and rest to support them.

Amanda Testa: I just want to share a little bit. I think that is so true about the physical part because so often we are disconnected to what’s happening in our bodies or we are too busy to think about it or we’ve been taught not to. You know, even just sitting at your desk working and saying I need to go to the bathroom, but I’ve got to finish this email and not doing it, right?

Michelle Emmanuelle: [Laughs] I can hold it!

Amanda Testa: But, I mean, I know too, because not only with all your experience in teaching and facilitating, you’re also a dancer and a certified yoga teacher and have done a lot of work around that too, so I’m curious how that affects your connection to this.

Michelle Emmanuelle: It affects it powerfully, honestly, Amanda, because what I’ve been learning in my trainings -- and I’m the consistent student. I’m always in some training program like whoa, and nerding out. 

0:10:00

One of the things I love to nerd out about is the brain and the neuroscience behind things. So what I do, in terms of supporting people in their recovery process, is I think it’s so important that people understand how their body works, you know? As you mentioned, I come from a background of being a professional dancer, and from there I went into yoga and it’s been a very circuitous route, you know, to get here today, but I just realized how important the somatic or the physical practices are as part of the recovery process because we actually -- our lived experiences live in our body. So it’s important that our recovery actually includes physical practices to decode these habitual patterns that have been in our bodies called biobehavioral patterns, so we need to actually include those physical practices to decode that so then we can encode new practices that are gonna be signaling our body towards rest, restoration, safety, and relaxation.

0:10:58

An example of that is just simply breath. Breath is the most accessible way to down-regulate our nervous system, bring us into a space of peace and calm. So part of the practices that I include in all the workshops is supporting people and helping them have accessible practices that they can do and they can access at any time, they don’t have to find another 20 minute in their day, you know? I tell people, “I’m not asking you to add something; I’m actually asking you to include it into what’s already there,” you know? Sometimes the practices are literally 60 seconds. We always have 60 seconds, you know? We can pause in between something just to take a breath, you know, or even just pausing. 

So yeah, absolutely, the physical practices are very important, and I’m currently in a somatic training -- [Laughs] one of many -- that’s just very mirrored with the neuroscience of everything because we actually have neurotransmitters throughout our entire body, not just in our brain, you know? So it’s important to really understand how that’s really happening, you know, in the systems and how this is showing up in our bodies in terms of our nervous system and how that’s impacting our health over time.

0:12:09

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michelle Emmanuelle: I can go on, so I’m gonna pause [Laughs] and take a breath.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes. Yes.

Michelle Emmanuelle: [Breath out]

Amanda Testa: Yeah, so you were saying just the importance of being able to tune into what’s happening physically so then you know okay, I’m going to bed early, and I’m waking up so exhausted, but maybe it’s not my physical body. That, potentially, it could be one of the other many, many ways that burnout shows up.

Michelle Emmanuelle: To be honest with you, I think the past two years, all of us are, in some varying aspects, mentally and emotionally burned out, you know? I think that just because of all that we’ve experienced -- the loss, the grief, the changes, the unknown -- that takes a toll over time. And so, I feel that’s definitely something that people have had -- should have some kind of awareness around and, again, that emotional burnout can show up as impatience, increased fear and anxiety, that sense of constant overwhelm, decreased motivation, self criticism, decreased focus; and then mental is lack of focus, that mind fog that I mentioned earlier, memory recall, the busy mind is also something that is pretty consistent in mental burnout, those repetitive thoughts (especially when it’s time to go to bed just cannot turn your brain off).

0:13:23

So there are definitely practices that can help support those. those are just some examples of how those two -- and I think, again, because of the times that we’ve lived through and we’re still in in some ways (in many ways, really), emotional and mental burnout is -- like I said, to varying degrees, I believe that we are all in some form of that right now just because of the longevity of still trying to figure out what’s happening in the world, right, and watching awful things continue to happen in the world currently. So that wears on our nervous system as well. Again, having practices that are going to support recovery and also having awareness of how that’s showing up in our bodies is really helpful and essential for people to have that sense of rest and calm, and so, to avoid the negative impacts that will prolong burnout.

0:14:10

Amanda Testa: I definitely feel that collective traumatic thing that we’ve all been living in for so long. Not just with COVID, but just the way things are. So it is sometimes hard to find the ways to focus on yourself when everything feels overwhelming, so I love how you really focus on the micro things people can do.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Absolutely. I’m a big fan of micro, you know? I heard this quote that I really, really loved by Arianna Huffington and her definition of micro steps, and she says that micro is too small to fail, and I love that because we tend to set goals like okay, I’m gonna do this and such, and then when we don’t do it there’s that sense of failure and whatever, but the micro is too small to fail, so it can be just hey, I’m going to pause once today to take a breath. That’s a micro step. If you forget by the end of the day, that’s okay. You’re laying in bed, pause then, you know?

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

0:15:05

Michelle Emmanuelle: It’s easy just to push the reset button and start again, you know? I think that’s why I’m such a fan of the accessibility because the accessibility creates the sustainability of it, you know?

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Michelle Emmanuelle: It’s easier to keep that consistency happening. So if it feels like too big of an ask, when a person is burned out, anything is too big of an ask, really, you know? So what’s the easiest entry point for a person to start their recovery process, and that’s what I really try to focus on, you know? It’s like you can take a breath, you can pause, let’s do this right now, you know? I’m a big person on data, so I love people to actually start to create their own sense of data, so we do, like, a before and after. Like, hey, write down how you're feeling. We’ll do this practice now. Write down -- oh, and now you have a compare and contrast. You can see the impact of it. 

I like to also bring about a new way. I time things for people because I like to really debunk that mindset that there’s no time. It’s like guess what, that took 60 seconds, that took 90 seconds, that took 2 minutes, you know, just to show that there’s time, and look at the difference, and that’s why I have people write things down or something like that because they get a chance to -- they’ve created their own data. 

0:16:16

They've written down what their experience is prior to the exercise and afterwards. It’s something that they can do themselves. it’s not a big huge teaching moment for me, it’s just like an offering and a guidance of what they can do.

Amanda Testa: I love that. I think, too, you know, it just makes me think when someone is very overwhelmed -- ‘cause I know in experiences in my life where I’ve been burned out. It’s just even something little feels like a lot, so I love that reminder of yeah, it’s really only 60 seconds.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: And it’s so small you can remember it. Even if you just forgot it and it’s 11 P.M. and you’re finally remembering, you can take a breath in that moment. Yes, I love that. Yeah, and so, I’m wondering, then, when it comes to the emotional aspect how that shows up.

Michelle Emmanuelle: You know, the emotional  -- interestingly, the emotional burnout is one of the types of burnout that has the biggest impact on our physical body because emotions are really regulated by the brain. 

0:17:09

And so, again, that can show up as that sense of overwhelm and depression and anxiety and hopelessness. It can show up as irritability and just a sense of -- I think, really, overall, it’s that sense of drain, that feeling like there’s bandwidth, you know, where it just feels like -- you know, actually what it shows up as is what we were discussing -- that sense of, like, “Oh, Amanda, I have this one thing I’d like you to do,” and that feeling like, “Oh, please don't ask me to do that.” That right there is an example of how emotional burnout shows up. Like, “Ugh, I can’t. Please don't ask me that.” It just triggers something in our system that says, “No, I’m at maximum already.” So that’s an example of that emotional burnout as well. ‘Cause if a person were to pause and say, “How do you know that you can't, what does that feel like?” Then they start recognizing that in their body. Their first response is, “No, no, no, I’m too overwhelmed. I can’t.” But really, it’s being triggered by something, and it’s usually that sense of -- there’s an emotion attached to it, and that emotion is usually attached to, as I mentioned before, some kind of biobehavioral pattern that we -- an example is, like, a person who has their shoulders constantly a little bit raised towards your ears. If you lift your shoulders up a little bit rather than that relaxed feeling, that gesture of raising the shoulders up is a pattern of anxiety, and over time the shoulders can just kind of stay in that pattern. 

0:18:33

Even if the person’s not in a situation that is anxiety-ridden, it’s still neurologically transmitting as anxiousness to the body, you know? So that’s what I was talking about, having those physical practices to decode those patterns. For example, breath -- helping that awareness and go okay, let me pause for a moment. Let me relax, you know? And so, encoding something new. So yeah, the emotions are really very powerful and super important to have that awareness in terms of how to support oneself when they start recognizing that, you know, and just recognizing oh, well, I just bit that person’s head off, you know? And just like okay, let me pause for a moment, and I use that word a lot, the pausing and breath because it’s the most accessible and easiest way. 

0:19:21

There are many, many practices that will support emotional burnout recovery. Breath is one of them, and I offer that first always because everybody knows how to do it. [Laughs] There’s very little teaching in that. It’s simply like take a pause, maybe notice your exhale, you know? One of the things I practice and I offer people is just counting their exhales, and even that process, people start noticing first they're counting, they're counting fast because their breath is shallow and quick, and then by numbers 20 and up, the counting starts to go slower because the exhales are longer, you know? And so, super simple things like that that can just support, and also the breath is what happens in the brain, and the brain signals the body that oh, it’s safe. If I can pause for breath, then I’m safe. That safety is gonna actually send out many more neurotransmissions to the body as saying oh, it’s okay, you can relax now. 

0:20:15

So, again, that’s why I offer breath as the first one, just because it’s accessible and it’s powerful

Amanda Testa: I love breath so much. It is, and it’s right there at the fingertips at all times. It is. When you are able to slow down your breath it can do so much to stimulate that parasympathetic nervous system and calm you down. It doesn't take long.

Michelle Emmanuelle: It doesn't. It’s 60 seconds [Laughs] or less but…

Amanda Testa: Yeah, these are beautiful tips, and I love how simple they are. Then I’m wondering when it comes to if you feel okay to maybe dive into a couple more of these that you feel like are important to note and what people can do for some of the other types of burnout here.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Let’s see. [Breath out] I’m gonna try to generalize some, because there are some that support just the specifics and others that don’t. A practice that I feel is really supportive of everything is a grounding practice. 

0:21:07

A grounding practice is, basically, a way of bringing one’s attention to the present moment, and so, a grounding practice can look like, again, just taking a moment to pause and just feeling one's feet on the ground and noticing what is touching what. So noticing their feet on the ground, noticing their back body touching and leaning back against a chair. Doing that, noticing where the arms are resting, and this is a really great practice because it not only brings a person to the present moment, but it brings a person connection back to their bodies.

So a lot of times the result of burnout is this disconnection to one’s body because we go into what is called armoring or dissociation like numbness, and that lack of mind-body connection is pretty much disconnected, really. And so, this grounding practice is a way to just bring a person back into their body and, again, just noticing what’s touching the ground, noticing what’s supporting the body if the person’s sitting down, just noticing what’s supporting their weight, and just feeling that weight in the chair, the couch, the ground, whatever it is that they’re sitting on. This also can be done standing. 

0:22:16

Again, there are some people that I work with who have standing desks, and so, you know, we just pause for a moment just like okay, with your arms down, hands just resting by your side, and just notice your feet on the ground, noticing your shoulders relaxing. I have them lower their hands to their sides because that’s the most relaxed position. If their hands are anywhere else on their body, there’s some muscle involved in holding that position, but when the arms relax, the shoulders naturally relax as well, you know? So I think that to be a really helpful practice and offering to people because, again, when we bring ourselves to the present moment, we start to recognize okay, what is happening right now because the patterns of burnout is, you know, this sense of anxiety or whatever it is, that heightened cortisol that’s just constantly going in that stress moment, but bringing one’s self into the present moment actually even just scanning and looking around the room, there’s something also definitely connected with the eyes and the vision and stress, so relaxing the gaze helps the body to relax. Our eyes are also direct pathways to the brain. Not to nerd out on that, but it’s super interesting.

0:23:26

So that would be another practice, I would say, that’s beneficial to any type of burnout -- physical, emotional, mental, creative, spiritual. Spiritual, I wanted to say, when I say spiritual burnout, that’s that sense of purpose and meaning. So it’s not connected with any particular religion, it’s just a sense of purpose and meaning, and the social burnout -- I just want to explain that one a little bit -- that we are social beings, you know? I think during the shelter in place we really were impacted by how much connection is important to us, you know? That’s part of what we need as human beings: connection, safety and belonging, you know? So we don't have that sense of strong connection, and we can be in the midst of many people and still not have that sense of connection, you know? So that’s a type of burnout as well.

0:24:12

The grounding practice is a way, again, just to reconnect with our bodies, bring us into that present moment, down-regulate our nervous system to a place of peace and calm, and the breath will naturally follow, you know? That’s something that -- sometimes breath work is a little bit hard for people, and they just feel like, “Ah, I feel like I’m forcing it,” or, “I don't want to do this.” It’s like, “Okay, let’s just stand here, “ or “Let’s just sit and just notice.” Just taking our attention and noticing what we typically wouldn't take time to notice is a support.

Amanda Testa: I love that. Just the simple noticing and using the eyes and the orientation and how that can affect how your body feels.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Completely.

Amanda Testa: Right, and it makes so much sense when you think about if you're always feeling like you’re hyper-vigilant or alert all the time, and so many times, if we’re working on a computer all day we’re just, like, so zoomed in. We don't use our eyes like we would, you know, the way we’re meant to use them.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Exactly. Yes, our eyes are actually a stress indicator to the body. When a person is stressed, the vision gets very narrow and very focused, and that’s part of our fight, flight. Our survival mode is, like, what do I need to do? It’s zeroing in, you know? 

0:25:17

So relaxing our gaze and just focusing and allowing the peripheral vision to engage and kinda noticing what are we seeing with our peripheral vision? What are we seeing, and just kind of taking in the whole surroundings is literally signaling our system of safety because it’s relaxing that narrow-focused vision, that laser focus that happens during stressful times. That, again, super simple, very accessible, and literally is sending a signal to our bodies that oh, it’s okay. I’m safe. I can relax my eyes, so there must be a place that I can rest now, you know? So that’s really helpful.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I’m wondering, too, out of all the -- when you do these workshops, what do you feel like is the number one thing people appreciate most when they walk away? What is the feedback you get from people?

Michelle Emmanuelle: You know, two things: one, people tend to be really surprised that there are so many different types of burnout, so a lot of the feedback straight away is this, like, “Oh, that’s so much better. That’s so much more helpful, “ because a lot of times, taking a vacation or taking time off, those are really good things, but they’re not sustainable if a person’s gonna jump right back onto the treadmill, you know? 

0:26:22

So a lot of times what people really appreciate is having specific tools for the specific type of burnout that they’re experiencing so that they can actually have the appropriate rest. If they’re discounting, like I said, going to bed early, and they actually are very emotionally and mentally burned out, that may or may not help because their sleep patterns are probably disrupted, so going to bed early’s not necessarily gonna support that, you know? So that’s one area.

I’d say the second is the accessibility of how easy the tools are and how much they work. I’m always surprised, too. As I’m doing the content creating, I’m always practicing these different tools that I offer people, and I’m always like wow, I feel better! This is amazing. It does take 60 seconds, you know, or whatever, but I really believe in keeping things accessible so that they can be sustainable. 

0:27:11

So those are the two areas I’d say. Just recognition that there’s more than one type of burnout, and the accessibility of the practices to help support the recovery process.

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too, if there’s anything that you have upcoming that you’re excited about or any programs or how people can connect with you to learn more.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Yeah, thank you for asking. I am really excited about the group coaching that I started. So I found that I wanted to offer something that’s a little bit more engaged for people long term, ‘cause the workshops are feeling like oh, that was great, and they need a little bit more. So I feel like the group coaching is such a great way to really support people in community and engage in the healing practices with others who are in a similar space and place. Studies have shown that, actually, I think it’s something like a 35% increase of results when people are in a community going through healing practices together. And so, the group coaching is just really something that I really enjoy just to help people to really connect with one another. 

0:28:11

It’s a built in accountability group, it’s a built in place for sharing challenges and celebrations with people who are also on the same page that you may be. So that’s something I’m pretty excited about. I’m also excited about the -- before, I was doing workshops that, basically, encapsulated all the different types of burnout in one workshop. So it’s just like the burnout recovery toolkit, here it is, all in one which is a very good overview, but I found that people are actually wanting some time to just focus on the specific burnout recovery for emotional and mental burnout. So I have specific types of burnout workshops for different categories and those are exciting to me too. People can actually find out more about those on my website which is called sustainablechangemaker.com. I’m sticking with the theme of that sustainability of practices.

0:29:06

Amanda Testa: Yeah, well I’ll make sure to share that in the show notes as well so everyone can connect with you and learn more about the amazing offerings that you have right now. I’d also love to know if maybe there was a question that you wished that I asked that I didn't ask or anything else that you want to make sure to speak to?

Michelle Emmanuelle: You know, one thing I feel that has been very powerful that I would like to reiterate is how burnout recovery really does support work culture. So many corporations and organizations are working through really trying to make sure that the people are being served and they’ve been including more diversity equity inclusion workshops and positions and trainings and mental health, which all are so important, and I really feel like those organizations and incorporations who have a people-centered culture can really benefit their employees by supporting them with burnout recovery because it’s win, win all of the way because it really does crate that increased engagement, retention, all the things that people are wanting in their culture -- buy-in, productivity, sense of meaning and purpose, creativity, and innovation -- all of these things are supported when the people are actually getting their needs met through the burnout recovery. 

0:30:24

It’s because of the burnout, typically, that the data of the mass exodus that’s happening right now is happening including the systemic issues. So the burnout recovery -- burnout due to the systemic issues is real, you know? There’s no such thing as micro when it comes to aggression. To our nervous system, aggression is aggression, period. And so, it’s important to recognize that there is a sense of purpose and opportunity for recovery. It is possible. I can’t tell you how many people I talk to, Amanda, who tell me that they used to work at a particular organization but they quit because of burnout. A lot of times people think that that’s the answer, that they’d have to quit, and it’s not the answer. It’s a definite solution, but burnout recovery is possible without actually having to leave one’s job. For some people who that may not be an option for, this is really good news, you know?

Amanda Testa: Yes, exactly. I mean, just having the option is, like you say, a solution, but it’s not always accessible. 

0:31:27

Knowing that there’s ways you can do it -- I’m wondering, too, if people are listening and they're like well, I need to send this to my boss or I need to tell my corporation about this -- that’s one of the things that Michelle does as well is she does work with corporations, so you can make sure to send her information along or pass it to the ones that can help on a bigger scale.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Absolutely. Yes, thank you for asking that question, Amanda, I really do feel like people are wanting to do better, you know, in their organizations and corporations. I really see that a lot across industries, and so, that’s why I reframe what burnout recovery can do because it really does support work culture, it really does help the culture to thrive. All of the things that these people are wanting and the leaders are wanting -- and also it’s important to have the buy-in from the leaders, you know? So there’s a burnout recovery toolkit simply just for leaders so that they recognize what burnout looks like in their staff, how they may be contributing to it, how they can prevent it. 

0:32:24

I think it’s so important that it’s modeled because a lot of times burnout is a top-down type of thing. In many organizations I’ve been seeing that.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Michelle Emmanuelle: I try to cover as many bases as I can, but definitely it’s something that I think is so beneficial for everyone because we’re human and we need it. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes. Thank you so much, Michelle. I so appreciate you being here, and I’m very excited for all that you're doing, and thank you for offering this burnout recovery, and sustainable ways to do it to actually make it easy.

Michelle Emmanuelle: Thank you, Amanda. I’m so honored for this time with you, and I appreciate the opportunity to share my work and share some examples of the practices, and I hope it helps people.

0:33:05

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and for everyone listening, too, I’ll make sure to put in the show notes where you can find Michelle and the website and all that good stuff as well. So thank you all for listening. We will see you soon!

Michelle Emmanuelle: Thank you!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. 

Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself. 

0:34:01

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]