JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Learn more about Dr. Catherine Roach via her website HERE.

Catherine M. Roach is Professor of Gender and Cultural Studies in New College.   She has over twenty-five years of research and teaching experience on gender and sexuality studies in American popular culture. A two-time Fulbright Award winner, she has held visiting fellowships and delivered invited lectures at universities in Australia, Canada, Scotland, England, and Greece.

She is the author of Mother/Nature: Popular Culture and Environmental Ethics (Indiana Univ. Press, 2003) and Stripping, Sex, and Popular Culture (Berg, 2007).  Her academic book Happily Ever After: The Romance Story in Popular Culture (Indiana Univ. Press, 2016) won Silver Medal in the 2017 Independent Publisher Book Awards and earned mention in the New York Times Book Review.  As part of that book’s study of the “Find Your One True Love” narrative, Roach undertook a companion project of writing two historical romance novels as Catherine LaRoche (Simon & Schuster, 2012, 2014).

Her newest book is a general-audience book of public scholarship, Good Sex: Transforming America through the New Gender and Sexual Revolution (Indiana University Press, 2022).  Read the companion essay, “Making Good Sex: The Story of the Book.”

Her current collaborative research involves gender and sexuality studies and art history about the famous 19th-century American statue The Greek Slave (original version at Raby Castle, UK, and two later versions at the University of Alabama).  The project tells a gripping tale about today’s most pressing issues of bilateral social justice: the US and UK’s ongoing reckoning with racial and sexual justice movements.  It’s a lost story of transatlantic art and slavery that ties the two countries together from the 19th century to the present day.

At the University of Alabama, she has won the school’s top research and teaching awards: the Burnum Distinguished Faculty Award (2016) and the Southeastern Conference (SEC) UA Faculty Achievement Award (2021), including UA nomination as SEC Professor of the Year.  She is a Fellow in the Collaborative Arts Research Initiative, working to bring research alive through the arts for a broad public audience.  Every semester, she teaches the popular cross-university course “Sexuality and Society” that addresses cultural change in America and campus sexual wellbeing.

She enjoys hiking, paddling, cooking, and spending time with family and friends— especially summers escaping the sultry Alabama heat back in her native Canada.

• • Purchase Good Sex on Indiana University Press: https://iupress.org/9780253064691/good-sex/

  • Jamie McCartney - The Great Wall of Vagina: https://www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/

    Sophia Wallace’s Work - The Cliteracy Project: https://www.sophiawallace.art/cliteracy-100-natura
    

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EPISODE 235: with Catherine Roach

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. We are going to be diving into Good Sex, the new gender and sexual revolution, and the Manisexto (if you will) that will help start the standards for ethical and pleasurable sex in 2022. I am super thrilled today because I am going to be talking with legendary Catherine M. Roach. She’s a professor of gender and cultural studies at New College - The University of Alabama, and she has over 25 years of research and teaching experience on gender and sexual studies and popular culture. She’s a two-time Fulbright award winner with lots of amazing accolades. So I feel very grateful to have you here, and I’m really excited to dive into this topic. So, welcome. Thank you so much.

1:03

Catherine Roach: Well, thank you, Amanda. That’s a very [Laughs] grand introduction, thank you. I never think of myself as legendary, but I’m delighted to be here chatting with you.

Amanda Testa: Yes, well, I think we often don’t always celebrate ourselves enough so I’m gonna celebrate you and all your accomplishments. And, also, we’re gonna be talking, too, about your new book. It’s called Good Sex: Transforming America Through the New Gender and Sexual Revolution, and I really love the structure of how you outlined everything here in the book. We’re gonna get into that in a minute.

But before we do, I’d love if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit more about why you’re so passionate about this topic. What led you to write this book?

Catherine Roach: Yes! Thank you. That’s actually one of my favorite questions about this book 'cause it very much came from my students. So I’m a professor at The University of Alabama, and I teach Gender, Sexuality, and Pop Culture topics here. I published several other books, but this one, more than anything else I’ve written, comes really from the students.

2:01

It was driven by a sense of student need here on campus, and I don't think our campus -- I’m in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, it’s this college town -- I don't think it’s particularly different from other places around the country in this regard. We’re a large public state university. We have what’s called a core curriculum where students have to take a little bit of social science, a little bit of humanities, a little bit of natural science.

So, this course I developed about seven years ago as one of the social science courses in the core in order to reach a broad mix of students from all across the campus. And this was because, in my smaller seminars that I had been teaching for 20 years on these topics of gender and sexuality and popular culture, I was hearing from students this need for a bigger, curricular, safe space where they could think and learn and engage academically with issues about positive sexuality, things like consent, hook-up culture on campus, and the #MeToo movement that was sort of exploding at the time, and the growing openness for gender and sexual diversity in the country but that still came with a lot of backlash and risks.

3:17

There are places where you can sort of talk about that on college campuses, like frat parties and bars, but to talk about it academically in a safe space where they can learn and think and write and reflect and hear from guest lectures, that didn’t really exist in a way it seemed that it needed to.

So I created this bigger lecture course. We have 75 students, usually, every semester, and I’ve been teaching the course every single semester for seven years now except last year when I was on a sabbatical and somebody else took it over for me, and so much great material started emerging from the class. The students write weekly response papers, and I saw that if you create a safe space and give them an opportunity to think and write and reflect, amazing material came out.

4:04

And so, this research project grew directly out of the course. I wanted to take this material that we’d been talking about, workshopping together in this larger lecture course, and turn it into a book.

So the book very much emerges from the class, and it’s just chock full of responses from the students and, obviously, anonymous. I asked students if they wanted to participate in this research project once the book started getting going, and those students who did consent, I gathered responses from them confidentially (respecting student privacy) and included those in the book. So I feel it’s very much a collaborative effort in that sense, and it very much reflects the students’ engagement with these issues about gender and sexual diversity and positive sexuality. So it’s sort of a snapshot of young people around the country today who are here on campus in the class. So I’m very grateful to the students. They made this book possible.

5:06

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so powerful, and I think, too, that’s the beautiful thing about being in an academic environment (a college campus). I feel like it is such a -- there’s people from everywhere, and so, no matter, kind of, what the regional area is, the college campus is usually kind of a little breath of diversity, of forward-thinking, and I think this is so important to talk about.

First, let us dive in a little bit more to around when you talk about the new gender and sexual revolution, can you talk a little bit more about that tipping point, that shift that you are speaking to?

Catherine Roach: Mm-hmm, yeah. Well, by using this term new sexual and gender revelation, I’m trying to take a positive view, engage in an optimistic, positive sense of where the culture is going. There’s evidence to indicate that we’re at a tipping point or a turning point, a shift in the culture exemplified by some very fundamental changes in the last decade in America.

6:05

Things like same-sex marriage becoming legal across the country since 2015. The #MeToo movement exploding, making a hard line against sexual assault, creating a conversation about the bedrock importance of consent, and also making it less shameful to talk about issues of sexual assault and it’s less of a taboo topic than before.

The body positivity movement, body acceptance is becoming really important. Seeing a lot in social media, a lot of companies have come to embrace it within the last decade. Then, also, issues like transgender becoming much more mainstream; gender nonbinary, gender diversity becoming much more mainstream and visible than before. So all of these changes in the culture can be seen as part of a fundamental shift toward more equity, inclusion, acceptance of diversity around gender and sexual diversity.

7:03

It’s not to say that there’s any sort of paradise here for gender equity and inclusion or positive sexuality. There’s also an often virulent backlash provoked by this sense of change and greater openness. But, nevertheless, it seems to be here and particularly among younger people, the Gen-Z, the college-aged demographic of young adults 18 to 23. That’s what really gives me hope, what I think is the grounds for optimism about change in this direction of greater openness and equity.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think that’s so powerful to have that hope, especially in the greater scheme of the political climate right now and overturning of Roe v. Wade and just all the things on the docket they want to get passed around like limiting contraceptive accessibility and just all the things. Sometimes it can be easy to get really frustrated because when you talk about pleasure and equality and bringing in all of the juicy aspects of it, there’s also the complex side effects and all the parts.

8:06

And so, they're all very important, and I think what is beautiful is that all of these ways of expressing, there are names for them, there are ways that it’s more talked about, less shame which is so key and important. Also, just a lot of the keys that you talk about in your book are just in general good things to think about, right? [Laughs]

Catherine Roach: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Like when you want to have better sex, these are just important for any person no matter what.

Catherine Roach: Yeah, I think that because, as I was saying earlier, so much of the book is driven by the students, I found that the students respond to (that flipping the script is one way to think about it) focusing on positive aspects and more optimistic developments in the culture like on the question of the #MeToo movement or sexual assault, nobody wants to spend an hour and a half class period talking about rape, for example. It’s depressing. It’s scary. It can be retraumatizing for students who’ve experienced sexual assault which is a big demographic. It can be demonizing towards sexuality.

9:09

So I find if one flips the script and asks instead, “What does positive sexuality look like? What are the Hallmarks of a healthy, pleasurable, sexual experience? What do we need to get there? What does it look like? What needs to change in society as a whole to enable and support healthy, intimate relationship,” students respond much more enthusiastically to those sort of questions. They engage more. It feels like a powerful forward-moving beneficial conversion.

So I try to flip the script in those ways in the classroom and then in the book without being overly naive or simplistically optimistic, that would, I guess, be the risk or the downside.

Amanda Testa: Right, right.

Catherine Roach: But to focus on the positive.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I’m wondering if you would feel open just talking about what some of those Hallmarks are. I like how you refer to it as the Manisexto manifesto, if you will.

10:07

Catherine Roach: [Laughs] Yes!

Amanda Testa: Can you share some more about that?

Catherine Roach: I got that from my husband, actually. I was muttering at home about this. “I want to write a new book. I want to write a book. It’s some sort of manifesto about sexuality,” and he said, “You mean a Manisexto?” He’s very good with puns and word play. They sort of fall like acorns from a tree, I’d say. So he came up with this word play of the Manisexto - a manifesto about sexuality. So that’s another way that I describe in the book this sense of a new gender and sexual revolution or this turning point, this tipping point in the culture. You can think about it as a Manisexto, a manifesto about positive sexualities that are working its way through the culture.

So, yeah, I talk about that there’s five central commitments I see to it. A commitment to positive sexuality. That sexuality is a normal, healthy, pleasurable aspect of being human. That people have the right to their sexual choices as long as those choices are consensual and hold people’s best interests, and so, positive sexuality.

11:14

A commitment to equity and inclusion or to normalizing diversity. That sexual and gender identities take many forms and because diversity is the norm, equity and inclusion need to be central values for any strong, democratic society.

The third commitment would be to body positivity or body acceptance. It’s termed sometimes body neutrality ‘cause there are different ways that that works out. But no more shaming or bullying for not having the perfect body. We’re opening up this definition that society’s had of what constitutes the good body, the sexy body, the beautiful body, to thinking much more broadly. It’s another way of thinking about diversity, actually, about the diversity of bodies, themselves, and minimizing shaming around that.

12:00

The fourth commitment of the Manisexto is to consent. Full consent is fundamental for all sexual activity, and meaningful consent arises out of egalitarian gender norms based in new and broader scripts about masculinity and femininity. so that’s part of this Manisexto also, so decreasing slut shaming, double standards, tight man-box rules that are boy shaming also.

Then, the fifth commitment of the Manisexto, as I’m envisioning it, is to share pleasure. That good sex is mutually respectful and pleasurable. So I talk about ideas of closing the heterosexual orgasm gap, especially in the campus culture hook-up culture. It’s time to learn about cliteracy as a notion of literacy about the clitoris which is not my own. I didn't coin that. Porn literacy is part of that also. So this essential commitment to equitable pleasure for all partners involved.

13:05

The title of the book Good Sex is meant to be a play there on good as in ethical, moral, and consensual, respectful, but good also as in pleasurable, equitably satisfying of desire, not necessarily orgasm-centric only ‘cause pleasure is broader than just that. Although, there’s nothing wrong with orgasm. But good as in whatever good means to you in body pleasure.

So that’s the Manisexto.

Amanda Testa: I am just in love with all of those tenants! I think this is so beautiful. It’s interesting, too, ‘cause one of the things that you mention around the porn literacy, too. I’m sure with college-aged kids things are way different, especially with just access for younger and younger kids.

I actually am curious about this ‘cause one of my clients recently was asking me around, you know, for younger kids, when they have all this exposure to non-realistic things happening, kind of trying to educate them but then also what other options can they have that can support them to be more positive in the way they view? So I’m wondering how you might speak to that if you feel you can answer that.

14:12

Catherine Roach: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that’s a great question. And actually the conclusion that my book works towards is comprehensive sex education.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Catherine Roach: So I think that’s a big part of the answer there in terms of this question about pornography. Porn is hugely accessible. Much more so than when I was a young gal. It has to do with the internet, right? The explosion of the internet and access to the internet, the web at a young age. I’m not entirely against pornography. I think there’s a role pornography plays. There’s queer porn. There’s feminist porn. There’s ethical porn, slow porn, artistic porn. But the one thing porn is not designed or meant to do is to function as comprehensive sex ed. It’s like a fantasy factory, and, in its more negative forms, porn is often -- there’s violence, there’s demeaning aspects to women, to sexual minorities.

15:11

But even when that’s not there, its primary function is not comprehensive sex ed, and our culture as a whole often doesn't have great sex ed. I hear this from the students all the time, no matter where they're from --

Amanda Testa: Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Catherine Roach: -- in the US or outside the country. They’ve had hugely-varying experiences of sex ed from incredibly bad, damaging, or absent sex ed to, if they're lucky, pretty good comprehensive sex ed. But in the default of high quality, consistent sexuality and relationship education accessible to everyone, a lot of young people turn to porn to figure out what is sex or what am I supposed to be doing in bed or what does it mean to be a good lover. And so, we get these sexual scripts rom pornography (like, we get a lot of gender scripts from the culture as a whole), and then that’s what young people have.

16:03

They often talk, also, about how their parents are too embarrassed to talk with them in an open or ongoing way about sexuality. And so, they're sort of left to muddle through, figure it out on their own, and porn is often what they turn to as a default, even knowing this isn’t enough.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Catherine Roach: This isn’t supposed to be a realistic depiction of healthy, satisfying relationships, but that’s what they’ve got.

Amanda Testa: Right. It’s hard because there’s such -- I’ve had friends that have wanted to kind of create an online type of educational platform for kids (older kids, right?) but there’s a lot of red tape involved, let’s just say.

Catherine Roach: Yes, yes.

Amanda Testa: So I think the best thing to do is, like, yeah, if we’re parents, I’m always like good for reaching out. That’s the number one thing you can do. What is it in your own experience that you would have loved to see differently and what is it that you still hold a lot around that might need some extra exploring and curiosity so that you can be more open to whatever might cross your path with your kids, right?

17:07

Catherine Roach: Right. Yeah, so openness and communication. Maintaining open lines of communication is super important. In many realms of life, communication is the answer.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I like that you talk about this, too, because it is so important, and I know I talk about this a lot on the podcast, but it always comes up. It’s, like, wanting to have these conversations around having better sex or bringing up these conversations around, like, what consent looks like or how can we do this and how can we talk about supporting my pleasure and not have it be divisive or all the things around that, right? [Laughs]

Catherine Roach: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Testa: So, what would you share around that?

Catherine Roach: Around the question of consent in particular?

Amanda Testa: Or just about having those discussions without getting people upset. How might you suggest that? I always like to get different people’s perspectives on this question.

18:03

Catherine Roach: So it depends. So there’s the conversion of parents and kids in the home conversation. In the realm that I work in is the classroom with students and myself and then the guest speakers that I bring in, so there’s an element of verticality there, power difference. But then there’s the peer-to-peer conversations. And then in intimate relationships themselves (romantic or sexual relationships themselves). I think, in all cases, emphasis on open communication is super important. It needs to be ongoing. A sense of respect for the other and acknowledgement that we come from different backgrounds, different sets of values or fundamental commitments, it can be different religious backgrounds, socioeconomic, racial; differences of ability, disability. Ideally, difference is fun and engaging and stimulating and interesting, but it can also be a source of anxiety and concern or just, sort of, mystification.

19:11

It can create barriers. So working through all of those differences with an open mind and a sense of the other partner in the conversion, their best interests. So respect, openness, diversity, commitment to the good. There’s something about the long term I think is important. There’s the immediate goals but then the longer-term vision of a relationship, where you want that to grow into. I think that’s important, too.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Catherine Roach: That open communication is very difficult. As you’re communicating and trying to keep openness to the other, it requires a communication with one’s self and knowledge of one’s self, and in some ways, that’s maybe the most difficult. It requires you to be open and honest with yourself about where you're coming from, what it is you want, what are the sources of your pleasure, your own goals, your values and being able to articulate all of that, that’s difficult. It changes for all of us as we go through life.

20:13

Amanda Testa: And you're right. It’s very different based on what you learned, what your experience is. Everyone’s unique in that. It is inspiring to me to hear the young college kids (the Gen-Z people) they're all having these conversations at such an early age like, “What do I like? What do I enjoy? What’s in this for me? How can I enjoy this experience?” which is very different from the education I got. I went to college in the early nineties, so that was a while ago. [Laughs]

Catherine Roach: Yeah. Yeah, I am interested in these demographic shifts. I think this cultural shift that I was talking about is very much tied to a demographic shift. In recent polls, now, one out of five (around 20%) of our Gen-Z youth 18-to-23-year-olds are identifying as LGBTQ, embracing a sense of gender and sexual diversity and claiming that as part of their own identity.

21:08

And it’s different that one out of five is a higher proportion now than even just a few years ago when the poll was finding one out of six. And I don't think that there’s a bigger queer community now, necessarily, but it’s that people feel more empowered to be out about that, to be open and honest with them self and then with others in the culture. I think that’s very encouraging.

So this sense, for a lot of young people, that diversity is not a source of anxiety. It’s the world that they increasingly seeing and growing up with and surrounded by all the time, and they're just fine with it. They don't have a problem with people who are gender nonbinary or guys who dress in traditionally-feminine clothing or a sense of hosting slut walks on campus and women who can embrace their sexuality and aren’t afraid of slut-shaming labels.

22:05

That’s just not cool anymore, slut shaming. Not to say it doesn't happen, but there is a stronger voice and positionality that creates space or all of that among young people.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so --

Catherine Roach: On a good day! On a good day, that’s what I’m feeling, and I’m like, “Yes! You go young people! You’re leading the way!” 

Amanda Testa: Yes! We want to encourage that! I think that’s so important because the hope in there is that as they rise into the world and offer their gifts, and that perspective will gratefully open up a lot more in the world.

Catherine Roach: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that’s right. And then, it’s like a ripple effect. I was just talking to one of my students. She’s a young engineering student, and there are more and more women in engineering here on campus, and she’s going to work for a company that is embracing gender and sexual diversity in the workplace and making that a central part of their workplace culture.

23:06

And so, if companies want to succeed and attract the best workers -- one wants to be sort of, not cynical, but realistic or pragmatic about bottom-line value and issues and cultural competence around gender and sexual diversity. Companies can take that perspective. You want to attract the best workers nowadays? You can make sure that your company culture is competent and inclusive on these issues.

Amanda Testa: Yes. I think that the other thing, too, around that I’m curious about is when you’re talking with your students, when you're polling them or when they send in their reports, what are the things that they most are excited about? I’m curious from your research. What are the things that excite them most around sexuality, around sex, around the future? What are the things? Do they share about that?

24:01

Catherine Roach: A variety of things. I think this openness to more gender and sexual diversity, that’s a positive point that comes up a lot. A sense that, on this issue, consent, for example, that’s been in the culture a lot and gets addressed on college campuses all the time. The way that that can be very empowering for women. It gives women a more gender, egalitarian, dating culture, campus, hook-up culture. That’s something that comes up a lot. To what extent is that changing here on campuses now? The flip side of that, that I hear from the students, is about new gender codes around masculinity. 

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Catherine Roach: That’s a hard one for guys, but I do hear this from them. Some of them talk about how the haze around the guy code (the man-box rules) is lifting, and they find that so liberating.

25:00

It’s a lot for guys to break through 'cause there’s so much restriction around the gender norms for men, more so than women, even. There’s been more openness from the women’s movement and feminism. A gal can be an engineer (like I was just saying) or a doctor nowadays. But it’s actually harder for a guy who wants to be a nurse or an elementary school teacher.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Catherine Roach: Or a guy who has experienced unwanted sexual contact or sexual assault himself to be able to come out and say that. There’s even more taboo and shame, in a way. So there is a lot of, I would say, excitement (to answer your question) around the sense of new masculinity, inclusive masculinity, the possibilities of that are finally allowing a certain freedom from these very tight structures of man-box, tough guy, rules for masculinity in the culture.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Catherine Roach: I think that’s sort of a next wave that’s coming that I’m very interested in 'cause there’s a lot of costs for guys, too.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

26:02

Catherine Roach: I like to buck those rules to try to break free of the man box. There’s still a lot of shaming and, “Be a man.” That rhetoric has not gone away at all. But for guys who see through it who can break free of the man box, there’s a great sense of empowerment coming from that.

Amanda Testa: Right. I just think, too, it’s interesting. I feel for a lot of men in that category because there isn't a lot of healthy right of passage kind of things for a lot of men or that coming of age, those rituals, those things that are more of a healthy way of coming of age versus hazing or shaving your head, or whatever it might be, that happens when peers do the initiating of something that used to be done by elders or community. I’m curious your thoughts around that if you notice that or what your thoughts are.

Catherine Roach: Yeah, yeah, and I think it relates to what we were saying about pornography earlier also, ‘cause if you're talking about a lack of narratives in the culture for positive sexuality, positive relationship instruction for guys, I think that’s true.

27:10

One thing that they get is porn - porn telling them how to be a real man. What does a sexual stud look like, and it fuels huge anxiety. And so, I do hear that from the guys. We just did a unit on genital anxiety which is actually true for women and men.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Catherine Roach: But your penis is likely never to be as big as that of a porn star. Your vulva is not going to be as, sort of, clam-shell shaped and groomed as that of a female porn star. So those narratives of the manly stud guy, the sexy gal that come out of porn, play in the minds of young people. I hear that from their responses in class, and it makes them feel bad. Like, I’m a bad lover or they're just like a confused lover, and so, there’s a lot of rough-sex tropes that they enact with each other because they think that’s what I’m supposed to be doing.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

28:06

Catherine Roach: Like hair-pulling or spanking or choking, and not to shame that if that’s your consensual kink that you work through with good communication, that that’s what gives all partners involved in such pleasure, but that doesn't seem to be happening in a lot of these narratives that I’m hearing from students that just -- the tropes that they're fed by the culture, and so, as they’re trying to figure things out without great communication, what they end up enacting with each other.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Catherine Roach: So, yes, we could have more and better role models or sources of insight and compassionate leadership on these issues as we’re all trying to figure out healthy, intimate relationship.

Amanda Testa: I do feel like that’s an upcoming trend, though, that’s gonna hopefully expand is around the -- I don't know the term. I’m probably gonna mess it up. I’m just gonna say this one. It’s probably wrong, but, you know, the conscious masculinity or really different ways of being a man and there’s more groups and there’s more men’s groups about it and there’s more things I see with youth-guided things.

29:05

Catherine Roach: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Testa: So that’s a positive thing. And I think, too, also, it also is a lot around where you live and that kind of thing, what you have access to. So there’s that.

Catherine Roach: Yeah. Yeah. I think inclusive masculinity or the new masculinity or --

Amanda Testa: Yes, thank you.

Catherine Roach: -- or to use the plural to talk about masculinities. There’s more than one way to be a good man. There’s lots of ways to be a man. Being traditionally feminine could be one or being nonbinary could be one, and being gay and being playful with gender expression, that there’s lots of ways to be a good man, and certainly being sensitive and inclusive is an essential part of it.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and I want to go back just a minute to the genital anxiety course, ‘cause I just want to celebrate that so much. If only that could have happened back when I was in college. I think about, too, all the people that I work with, and this is such a huge thing because they never got the awareness that, oh, okay.

I remember reading Sheri Winston’s Women’s Anatomy of Arousal, and I was in my thirties when I read that, and I was like, you know, I’m college educated, I’m very smart. How do I not know these things about my own body?

30:09

Because, like you say, we’re not taught. And so, I’m curious what are some of the things that you talk about in that course, if you're open to sharing or if that’s okay to do so?

Catherine Roach: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I think…

Amanda Testa: For the adults listening, I think a lot of the people that are listening to the podcast probably are women who are past the college age or maybe they have kids in college, or maybe they're young still, but just, yeah, let’s talk more about that.

Catherine Roach: So, yes, genital anxiety or genital positivity (where we’re flipping the script) -- diversity is the norm. As part of a commitment to diversity, to inclusion, and in body positivity or body acceptance, we would talk about the way that genitals are diverse in all sorts of ways. Symmetry is not the norm. Asymmetry is actually the norm that, in terms of women’s vulvas, the inner labia are actually usually bigger than the outer labia.

31:07

And so, sometimes, they do these labiaplasty surgeries now, and there’s increase in this as a form of plastic surgery or cosmetic surgery. There’s been a big increase in it. Women are worried that their inner labia are too long and they're protruding out of the vulva or that their vulva isn’t symmetrical, is not like a Barbie clamshell vulva. And that’s all perfectly normal.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Catherine Roach: It’s perfectly normal for the labia to be different and to be big and to be doing their thing, and it’s all good. There are some great artists who work in this area. We bring this work into the classroom. Jamie McCartney is a British artist who has The Great Wall of Vagina he’s made from 400 different plastered casts of actual women’s vulvas (women who volunteered to participate in his art project). So to show the huge diversity, it’s all vulvas are beautiful in that sense.

Amanda Testa: Yes!

32:00

Catherine Roach: He works with men also to show the diversity. There’s a lot of anxiety of, “My penis isn't big enough.” This actually comes up in class. Well, not quite so boldly.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. 

Catherine Roach: But it emerges, anxieties about the penis, and so, to show the diversity of penises, also, size, shape, whether there’s foreskin (whether it’s circumcised or not circumcised which can also be a source of shaming).

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Catherine Roach: Another artist whose work I really like is Sophia Wallace who has worked with this term cliteracy or literacy about the clitoris. She’s a New York City-based conceptual artist who has this project, The Cliteracy Project, and she uses 100 natural laws about the clitoris (or more broadly about women’s sexuality). Her whole point is that there’s this massive sexualization of women’s bodies used all the time in the media and in the culture, that women’s bodies are sexualized and then consumed or the sexualization of women’s bodies is used by companies for consumer intent, advertising and such.

33:03

But, underneath all of that, there’s this massive illiteracy about women’s sexuality, about women’s sexual pleasure which is centered on the clitoris. So the whole notion of penis-in-vagina sex as sort of a standard trope of what constitutes sex is one that leads much more reliably to male orgasm than to female orgasm, that women’s sexual pleasure generally involves engaging the clitoris, centered on the clitoris, if we’re talking heterosexual sex. The penis-in-vagina male-orgasm vision of sex is one but not the only, and it works for some women but not for many women.

So this whole notion of genital anxiety and genital diversity and genital positivity is linked, then, to women’s sexual pleasure, to men’s sexual pleasure, too, ‘cause if you're anxious about your genitals, if you think you don't look good down there, you're probably gonna be anxious about your sexuality and not enjoy intimate encounters as much as you could.

Amanda Testa: Yes. Yeah.

34:01

Catherine Roach: So they're related, all bodies. Inhabit your body with joy. All genitals are lovely genitals and capable of the pleasure that your body can give you.

Amanda Testa: I love that. I’m so glad. That makes me so happy. [Laughs] I just love it. I just could keep talking to you ‘cause I love these conversions. I would love to know just maybe if there was any question that you really wished that I would have asked that I didn't or if there is something that you want to make sure to share?

Catherine Roach: Huh. Oh, that’s a lot of pressure now. [Laughs] I don't know!

Amanda Testa: Or what closing words you might like to share?

Catherine Roach: Good sex involves equitable sexual pleasure, egalitarian gender norms. Good sex is sex that is mutually pleasurable and respectful. It is entirely possible, I think it’s increasingly within our cultural reach, and I’m hoping that with an emphasis on open conversation, inclusion, and comprehensive sex ed it’s somewhere that we can get.

35:13

Part of what gives me hope is the sense that younger people are less concerned about shame and taboo --

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Catherine Roach: -- and are helping us get there --

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Catherine Roach: -- to this vision of sexual justice.

Amanda Testa: I love that. Oh, that’s so important. Thank you so much for being here, Catherine.

Catherine Roach: Oh, my pleasure. 

Amanda Testa: And I want you to share, too, where everyone can learn more about how to connect with you, how to get all your books, all that good stuff, if you don't mind sharing that.

Catherine Roach: Well, thank you. Yes, thank you, Amanda, for inviting me onto your podcast. I said that this was my first ever podcast, and it’s sort of fun! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Ah, I’m so, so glad.

Catherine Roach: The book Good Sex just came out. Indiana University Press is my publisher, and I’ve been delighted to work with them. The book is available where one buys books. You can go to Amazon. Certainly, you can go to the website of Indiana University Press to get it.

36:08

Amanda Testa: I’ll put in the show notes, too, just the links to where you can find it and also if you have an independent bookseller you love, (I always love to support those) just sharing that, too. [Laughs]

Catherine Roach: Exactly. Yes.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and then I’m wondering, too, for people listening that are just taking this all in, digesting these Manisexto commandments, if you will, the tenants and the beauty of these, what would be, you’d say, the easiest step forward? If there was one first step you’d offer people, what would you say that would be?

Catherine Roach: Well, I guess, too, we were talking about open communication and how that begins with one’s self. So, I guess, to think about your own body, your own pleasure, your own desire, to know that there is nothing shameful about one’s desires and sexual pleasure. And then, to be able to communicate that with partners as one wishes.

37:04

In whatever partnership feels respectful and open and empowering and affectionate and rewarding, to find the space to share with your partner, to know that our bodies are supposed to make us feel good, and sexuality is supposed to be a source of pleasure and joy and connection and intimacy, of positive growth. I guess there’s the Manisexto.

Amanda Testa: I love it! This is so beautiful. Thank you so much, again, for being here. Again, I’ll put in the show notes where everyone can connect with you and with the book and, again, we’ve been having a delight talking with Dr. Catherine Roach, and thank you, again, for all the amazing work that you're doing in the world. I’m so grateful that you’re out there doing this and all the people that you’re touching and how that ripple effect will bring a lot of openness and much-needed education.

Catherine Roach: [Laughs] Thank you very much, Amanda. It’s been a pleasure.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Yes, thank you!

38:02

Catherine Roach: Take care!

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

• Get your pleasure journal HERE.

Want more support? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda here.

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 235: Microdosing On Your Own Medicine

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

I believe that pleasure is foundational. It is a powerful tool to cultivate embodiment, nervous system regulation, and joy. And so, in today’s podcast episode, I’m gonna be talking about how to microdose on pleasure. Yes, how you can use your own medicine (microdose on your own medicine) to feel better in your body, in your sexuality, and overall in your life. And so, I love this topic because something that I find -- as you know, I’ve been talking about this for years -- that we can make little, small shifts and have big results, right?

Oftentimes, in our culture, we think it’s an all or nothing thing, right? We have to be all in on something or all out.

0:01:02

I’m either eating really healthy or I’m gorging on ice cream and chips. I’m either working out all the time or I am never doing anything. I’m either all in on my relationship or I’m busy and disconnected. And this is just not realistic, A, because we aren't meant to be all or nothing, right? We are multidimensional beings, and the more we can accept that, the more we can also accept what’s happening outside of us as well. And so, even just sometimes hearing the word pleasure can bring up so much.

So I’m curious, even as you feel into that word, pleasure, what do you notice? What might you notice happening in your body, in your being? Maybe any sensations you notice. Maybe any thoughts. What happens? Not judging what’s happening, but just being curious. What do I think about pleasure? What does that word mean to me? It’s just a curious thing to explore, right?

0:02:02

For me, pleasure means it feels good. It’s something that’s nourishing. It’s something that’s helpful and inspires feelings of warmth, of coziness, of joy, of ecstasy even, right? Being in my body, focusing on my sensations means focusing on my five senses, really dropping into presence. It means connecting with others. It can mean enjoying a good meal. It means laughing. It means cuddling with my kid. It means petting my dog and just luxuriating in his fur. It means enjoying the sun on my skin. It means walking through the cold snowy days and feeling that cold on my skin. It means watching a weed’s determination as it pushes through concrete, right? It means so many things but, mostly, it means presence - full presence in the moment that we’re in and this, to me, means a place of acceptance, of curiosity, and of acknowledgement of whatever is here, right? Even if it feels uncomfortable, especially when it feels uncomfortable because, so often, we can judge our experiences, judge how we’re supposed to be.

0:03:08

Oftentimes, when you see, like, “Oh, I want to be an embodied goddess and feel all the pleasure,” and you see all these images of these skinny, white women in flowing dresses. And, believe you me, I’ve been complicit in that as well, but then I realize it’s more than that, right? It’s not that, and that is just one way of being, right? That’s just what our culture has taught us is the norm, and that’s not true, right? That’s very unrealistic.

And so, what my invitation is is to kind of feel into the openness of what it could look like to have more pleasure in your life, to have these little micro hits of pleasure throughout your day. I like to call these pleasure pops or microdoses of pleasure or whatever it is for you. Really, what that term means is little, teeny, minute, almost non-noticeable doses of a medicine so that you can feel the effect.

0:04:02

The reason I think that pleasure is such a beautiful way to do this is because this is just something that’s natural in our own bodies. This is just something that we can cultivate connecting to, and, yes, there are tools and techniques in how you can do it, right? There are so many ways you can connect to these kind of expanded states of presence. You could do it through psychedelics. You could do it through breath work. You could do it through pleasure. You could do it through so many different ways, right?

But one of the things that can be so simple is, again, sometimes we look at things, like they have to be all or nothing, but what about just embracing? What could be little ways that I could dip my toe into adding more presence and pleasure into my life? And if it ever feels too much, guess what? You don't have to keep doing it. You can tune into what you need, right? I truly feel like that’s what pleasure means to me. It’s tuning into what you need in the moment and offering it to yourself as much as possible, and if you can’t offer it to yourself, can you ask for it? Can you receive it, right? These are three big things that can be really challenging.

0:05:02

Often, so often, what happens is in our lives, too, we feel rejected or we doubt ourselves or we don’t trust ourselves. This is another thing I hear a lot is that feeling of I’m not enough, that feeling of what I have isn't good enough, what I’m doing isn’t good enough, my body isn't good enough, my relationship isn't good enough, what I’m doing to take care of myself isn't good enough, how I am as a parent isn't good enough, how I am showing up at my work isn't good enough, right? Does any of that sound familiar? Well, it’s not your fault because it is our patriarchal culture that we live in, right? The supremacist culture of oppression, of extraction, of producing for someone else’s gain, often, right? I like to think about how can you take some of that and give it to yourself? How can you nourish your own self? How can you take some of that energy and put it to your own use so that you can better take care of yourself, so that you can better take care of your family (your loved ones), so that you can show up in your community in a way that makes a difference in a good way, right?

0:06:12

Because, really, what I think we all want deep down is just that feeling of what I’m doing is enough. I’m good. I’m good inside, right?

There’s a parenting expert that I follow, Dr. Becky, and she’s amazing. She just wrote a book called Good Inside, and what I love about this book and just her philosophy is that we are good inside. We are born good, and whenever someone is experiencing a hard time (like your kids or any relationship, really, you can look at this in any experience) this is a good person having a hard time which, oftentimes, is true, right? And that’s not to discount your own experience based on someone’s bad behavior because your own experience is important and needs validation and witnessing too. And so, I think what most of us want is that feeling of, like, yes, I’m enough, I’m creative, I’m original, I’m unique, I’m fun, I’m me, right? How we can find that is tapping into our own medicine more and more. I think doing that through little daily doses of pleasure is such a great way to do it.

0:07:15

Why is this important? Because, number one, it really helps you move through self-doubt. We have so much coming in, oftentimes, from external sources - social media, the news, people around you, going to the grocery store and seeing the magazines. There’s constant bombardment of this external narrative, and so, when you’re constantly feeling our culture’s messaging of, “You’re not right. The way you are isn't acceptable. This isn’t enough,” of course you’re gonna feel that way, right? And so, sometimes turning off that outside influence can be such a huge way to trust yourself more, to believe in yourself more. What is it that you truly want? What is it that you truly believe? Not what our culture’s telling us, not what you’ve been conditioned, but what is it, right?

0:08:01

Then, also, why else is it important? Number two, it helps you hold yourself with love and kindness, right? The more that you can be present to what’s happening in your own experience and find a way to connect to it, find a way to move through it and to come back to a place that feels stable, that feels good, that feels resourced, that’s so key because the more we can accept who we are and all the parts of us, the more we can accept others, right? It helps you stay resilient, as I talk about a lot when we are working on finding more pleasure, embodying our sexuality more, finding more connection in our relationships, a lot of it has to do with taking care of our own selves and our own nervous system so that we can be in a place of resilience more often than not versus a place of overwhelm and stress and anxiety or shutdown and disconnection. And so, when we can find ways to take care of ourselves, nourish ourselves in pleasure, we are more able to stay in that range of resilience. We can enhance our capacity for joy and pleasure. We can be more present in our lives in the moments that matter.

0:09:04

Also, too, like I said, to be able to look towards difficulty with compassion, whether that’s in yourself or others because, again, it can be hard, right? There’s so much that we are constantly bombarded with, but sometimes it is important to look towards that difficulty. I think it’s very important to look towards that difficulty and just see if you can remain in your heart while you witness it. It doesn't mean you necessarily have to do anything about it to start but just witnessing even in yourself. Because, again, the more we can have acceptance for our self, the more we can for our whole selves in the whole collective.

And so, again, this is why I like to call it microdoses of pleasure ‘cause you can start small, and I think those are the ways we make change over time is little small things over time. I know I talk about this, but BJ Fogg is a behavioral researcher at Stanford, and he created a program called Tiny Habits, and he also has a book about this.

0:10:00

Really, what it is, is finding ways to make change by doing the little tiny things, adding them to things you're already doing (rituals you already do), and adding these other little tiny things along the way because, truthfully, the more that you can make a really super small change, celebrate the hell out of yourself for doing it, the more likely you are to continue doing those things. Again, this is why all or nothing fails, right?

If you want to drink more water, for example, and then you go buy yourself three gallons of water and sit them on your desk, that might be overwhelming, right? But if you’re like, “You know what? Every time I get up to go to the bathroom, I’m gonna refill my water, and I’m gonna make an intention to drink it,” you're more likely to do it, right? If you are wanting to start working out, you're not gonna immediately go run a marathon, right? That’s not realistic. The same thing is with pleasure and with enjoying your body more and being in your body more and enjoying your sensations more and cultivating that sensuality. There are little teeny ways that you could do it.

0:11:00

One of the smallest ways I love to share with people is to create a pleasure journal. This is something I always do with my clients ‘cause I think it’s so key and it’s simple, right? So what this looks like is every day, at the end of the day, you're gonna write down something that brought you pleasure. Ideally, it’s a sensational pleasure, but it could just be anything like, “I got a beautiful, warm hug from my kid today,” or, “My partner walked by on his way out the door and gave me a kiss and it felt really connecting,” or, “I was walking the dog this morning and, oh, my god, the leaves (the colors, the brilliance) were gorgeous.” “Today, I had the most delicious pumpkin muffin I’ve ever eaten in my life,” right? Whatever it is, but something sensational like what was something that brought me pleasure today, something that I saw that was beautiful, something that I heard that was beautiful, something that I tasted that was delicious or yummy, something that I felt on my skin that felt good. Tuning into those five senses. What was it?

0:12:06

Just start making little notes of that at the end of the day because the more that you can drop into those sensations and just feelings of what you're experiencing (your sensations in your body) that is what embodiment is. It’s being in your body, noticing what’s happening, being aware of the sensations, being curious. This is a language that you have to learn, right? Not all of us know this language, and the more you can learn this language, the easier it is to expand on that - the easier it is to expand on that when you are in the bedroom or having sex with your partner or yourself or whatever it is. So starting small is so key. Then, when you start to think about, “What are the things that are bringing me pleasure everyday?” it kind of helps your brain default more to that.

I love these things so much so this is why I truly desire to create more opportunities for women and gender-expansive humans to create more pleasure in their lives, to be able to find these ways (these little pleasure pops, these little microdoses of pleasure) that you can do throughout the day so that you can reconnect to your own medicine and to remember that you are medicine, right?

0:13:16

What you are offering in this world is unique. It is different, it is important, and it is so needed. I really want that remembrance to come alive in every person that’s listening to this podcast, every person that wants to feel that tingle in places you’ve not felt in a while, to feel that feeling of a warm delicious hug. That’s what I love. I like warm hugs. Like Olaf, I like warm hugs. But, yes, creating the secret, maybe it’s like a sensual love affair with yourself, maybe it’s a way to just connect more deeply to the things that matter to you.

Again, it’s not our fault, right? This is our culture that we live in, and so, it is so amazing to be able to take these little, slow things and add in more joy, add in more connection, add in more presence to everything that you do because this is such a huge capacity builder for more sensation, for more pleasure, and it’s all so connected.

0:14:22

People sometimes struggle with this. So one of the things that I do with clients is really help to create these new pathways of pleasure in your bodies and beings, and there are ways to do it, right? There are proven processes to do it. And so, if this is something that you’re interested in learning more about, I’m going to be launching a new group program that is gonna be starting in January of 2023. Really, the intention is to connect to your own medicine, to use pleasure as your own medicine and connecting to that on a daily basis so you can remember: “I am medicine. I matter, and what I am doing in this world is important. My pleasure is important,” and centering that.

0:15:07

People always ask, “Well, why is this important? With everything going on in the world, why is this important?” And I have to say that it’s probably one of the most important things because, really, when you think about those stories of human resilience, of what inspires people in the midst of dark times is the human spirit. The thing is, it’s not just that. It’s the action that you take because the more that you can take action, the more things actually change. We can have the mindset. That’s a big part of it. Have the thoughts and have the experiences, but then it’s the doing. How do you continue to do this day after day? How do you continue to do this in a way that you can show up for yourself, that you can show up for your family, that you can show up for your relationship, that you can show up for your community? How can you do this day over day? That’s the work, right? That’s why it’s practice, and that’s why it can be so important to be in a community, held in a supportive community with other people doing supportive things because, truly, healing happens in community.

0:16:13

As I’ve served hundreds of clients over the years with my skills and coaching and pleasure embodiment and somatic trauma resolution, what I see time and time again is that we all have this ability to return to our blueprint of health, and we need a pathway sometimes, right? Once we can open that door, we remember. We have that within us. We don't need anyone else; we just need to find that path back to ourselves. And sometimes that’s hard, right? Sometimes you do need, “How do I do it?” And you need the help, but once you learn, then you have that treasure trove of resources for yourself to return to again and again and again. You can find your desire again. You can find your pleasure again. You can find safety and bliss in your body and know and remember that you are just enough exactly as you are without having to make drastic changes. Something that is challenging is thinking in that all or nothing, right? We don't have to do it all or nothing. We can make it gentle, we can make it doable, and, really, with the work that I do, I find that is the most sustainable way to make change is to do it in small increments over time. Otherwise, it could be too much and you shut down and you're like, “All right, well, that’s not for me.”

0:17:25

And so, I know that if you're listening to this podcast you are probably one who is on a path of growth, is on a path of devotion to yourself, to your expansion, to finding more ways to have more pleasure in your life and in your families and in your relationships or however it may be, but just know it is possible to tenderly heal your relationship to your sexuality, to shamelessly embrace your pleasure and you can cultivate deeper-connected relationships because of this, because when we’re more connected to our own medicine ourselves, when we take that time to marinate in that everyday, it changes how we show up in the world. It changes how we show up to our work. It changes how we show up to our families.

0:18:07

It reminds you of who you are because, in this crazy busy world with so much outside stuff constantly infiltrating us, it can be so challenging to remember what that even is, right? And so, by making these daily doses of pleasure and connection to yourself, you can remember that. You can find space for you and who you are to take root and blossom. It’s so, so key.

If this is something that you’re interested in learning more about, I’ll invite you to shoot me an email. Send me an email: amanda@amandatesta.com and in the subject line I want you to put “I am medicine,” and I can add you to the list to learn more. It’s gonna be very, very limited in space because I really want it to be an intimate experience, and know that even just doing these small things -- I’ll encourage you to get a journal, make it your pleasure journal.

0:19:05

I’ll even put in the show notes a page out of a pleasure journal that I’ve created. It’s a PDF and you can download it and just print it out or you can save it on your computer and write in it every day. Whatever way works for you. Use it as a journal prompt, and at the end of the day, check in, like, what were the things that brought me pleasure today?” Make it be that simple. That could be your first step.

So, know that there are numerous ways to go about this. It can be easy. It can be fun. Most importantly, it really helps you to connect to the wonderful magic that you are. That reminds me of one of the archetypes that I work with in my coaching that is from the Rebloom Coaching Methodology from one of my mentors, Rachael Maddox. I just adore this methodology because it does give such a beautiful map of reblooming. This part of connecting to your own medicine is all connected to the expressionista.

0:20:01

This ability to be who you are in the world and, again, we just need to remember that. The expressionista is all around whole-self expression, sharing who you are with authenticity and passion and confidence. I’m excited to help support you in that!

So, if you're interested, then I invite you to reach out. Again, you can shoot me an email: amanda@amandatesta.com and put in the subject “I Am Medicine,” and know that if the timing that you’re listening to this podcast is not exactly in 2022 or 2023 that there are still ways to tap into this so reach out if this is calling to you, if you’re feeling that urge to reconnect to your own medicine, to your own magic, to your own pleasure, and how that can expand in so many areas of your life, then I invite you to reach out. I’m sending you so much love. I’ll put the pleasure journal in our show notes. Wishing you a beautiful rest of your day or evening (whenever you’re listening to this in the world), and we will see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

0:21:07

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

• Resources:
  

  • Dr. Laurie’s Website: https://www.drlauriemintz.com/

  • Becoming Cliterate: Why Orgasm Equality Matters and How to Get It: https://www.drlauriemintz.com/becoming-cliterate

  • A Tired Woman’s Guide to Passionate Sex: Reclaim Your Desire and Reignite Your Relationship: 

  • 32:26 in the transcript: Dr. Laurie’s Best Practices Sex Communication Script

  • https://www.drlauriemintz.com/a-tired-womans-guide-to-passionate-

  • Follow Dr. Laurie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlauriemintz/

  • Follow Dr. Laurie on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrLaurieMintz/

  • Follow Dr. Laurie on Twitter: https://twitter.com/drlauriemintz?lang=enneagram

  • Follow Dr. Laurie on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/drlauriemintzcom/

  
  

Want more support? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda here.

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 234: with Dr. Laurie Mintz

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Are you aware of the orgasm gap? If you’re looking to find more pleasure and fulfilment in your sex life, then listen in for some enlightening facts to change your sex life for the better today. On the podcast this week, you're gonna learn why, statistically, only about 39% of women orgasm during heterosexual encounters and what we can do to change this cultural problem.

I’m Amanda Testa. Welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am so thrilled today to introduce you to Dr. Laurie Mintz. She is a feminist author, therapist, professor, and speaker whose life work has really been dedicated and committed to helping people live more authentic, meaningful, joyful, and sexually-satisfying lives through the art and science of psychology.

0:01:00

So she’s a tenured professor at The University of Florida. She has amazing research under her belt as well as has written two popular books which I highly recommend - Becoming Cliterate: Why Orgasm Equality Matters and How to Get It (such a great book), and also A Tired Woman’s Guide to Passionate Sex: Reclaim Your Desire and Reignite Your Relationship.

So I’m so, so thrilled to be talking with you today, Dr. Laurie. Thank you for being here!

Dr. Laurie Mintz: I’m so thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

Amanda Testa: Yes, you know, over the years, I know you've done so much research in really helping female-identifying people to have better sex lives. And so, people out there who have listened to the podcast might be familiar a little bit around orgasm inequality and all the things that that goes into, but I’d love to know a little bit more about your passion for this and what that means for those listening who might not be familiar with what that term is.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: So, yeah, I would love to share that. So the orgasm gap, as you said, is the really strong and consistent finding in the scientific literature that, when cisgender women get it on with cisgender men, the women are having substantially fewer orgasms than the men are.

0:02:04

You used one study which found that 39% of women (versus 91% of men) said they always (or usually always) orgasm during an encounter. That’s a huge gap. Now, that particular study didn't ask the context of the sex. Was it relationship sex? Was it hookup sex? Other research has found that the gap is biggest in hookup sex, it gets smaller in friends with benefits, but it never closes altogether. Even in relationship sex women are having substantially fewer orgasms, and one thing I want to say is a lot of people say, “Oh, it’s 'cause women’s’ bodies are difficult or elusive,” but other research makes it abundantly clear that that’s not the case. Women have more orgasms when having sex with other women, and they are pretty consistently orgasmic when alone. So that tells us the problem is not out bodies, it’s the way we do heterosexual sex.

0:03:00

My passion for this topic comes from my students. I teach the Psychology of Human Sexuality at The University of Florida to hundreds of students a year, and their stories around the orgasm gap really are painful. Many of them felt broken, like something was wrong with them. So I started teaching to them to close the orgasm gap and really focus on the clitoris. That’s the best way to close it, right? I would get notes from my students like, “Thanks to your class, I’m orgasmic.” “Thanks to your class, my girlfriend’s orgasmic,” and that really inspired me to get out beyond my classroom and make this a passion issue to close the gap culturally and in individual bedrooms.

Amanda Testa: I love it. This is so important. I’m curious, too, how you feel like it expands outside of just intimacy, outside of just in relationship. How does the orgasm gap affect everything, really?

0:04:01

Dr. Laurie Mintz: You know, it both reflects everything and it perpetuates everything. So, basically, this is not an isolated problem. It is really part of a bigger oppressive patriarchal system, and a lot of times we’re aware of some of the sexism and the oppression of women, but this is one area that it’s so deeply ingrained in the fabric of our culture that sometimes we don't even notice it. Like, for example, in Becoming Cliterite, I have a chapter on linguistic analysis that really -- we use the words sex and intercourse as if they're one in the same, and that’s very heteronormative and it also values male pleasure ‘cause that’s the act that men orgasm in most often, not women. We use foreplay as not important, just a lead up to the main event, even though that’s where women mostly orgasm. We call our entire genitals a vagina. We name our genitals for the part that’s most sexually useful for men versus ourselves.

0:05:07

So the orgasm gap is due to a much deeper cultural problem of the over-valuing of male sexual pleasure and the devaluing and fear of women’s sexuality, but closing it also has really powerful effects. Honestly, when I started this, I really did know it was reflective of a broader cultural problem, but what really took me by surprise is all the notes I’ve gotten from women readers saying, “Once I became empowered in the bedroom, it had amazing ripple effects outside of the bedroom. If I could be strong and empowered enough to speak up about my needs in the bedroom, it empowered me in the boardroom as well,” if you will, “or with my friends, with my children, everywhere.” So I think it has big-time ripple effects.

0:06:05

Amanda Testa: I think that is so interesting and huge because I see that, too, just so many times when I talk with clients or couples and women that are constantly saying, “You know, well, we can talk about everything, but one of the things we don't talk about is sex,” right? It’s such an intimate, vulnerable place, and that is where a lot of our conditioned behaviors can show up, right? We want to be pleasing or quiet or make sure the other person -- you know, typically, a lot of times female-identifying beings are very care-oriented and they want to make sure that everyone else is okay first.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Taking that initiative to put your needs first can be such a challenging thing at times.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: That’s so important. It really is going against the grain of I’m gonna take care of other people outside the bedroom and in the bedroom, like, oh, if it’s good for him, it’s good for me mentality. Letting go of that and saying, “You know, my needs are just equally as important as everybody else's in and out of the bedroom,” is very essential for female-bodied people.

0:07:11

Amanda Testa: So key. So I’d love to know what are some of the ways that we can go about closing the orgasm gap?

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Would you like me to talk about culturally or in individual bedrooms? They’re a little different.

Amanda Testa: Well, how about we go into a little of both ‘cause I think it all is important.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: And it’s all connected, right?

Amanda Testa: It is, really, so much.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: So, culturally, it’s conversations like these.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: It’s changing our language, no more: “sex is intercourse; foreplay just a leadup,” naming our vulvas, sex education. I mean, I’m sad to say I don't think we’ll get there in our country in my lifetime, but I hope we do eventually. They are there in other countries educating about pleasure, consent, the clitoris. Poor literacy - showing people this is make believe (yes, it’s not reality). Using the word clitoris loud and proud, calling out false images on TV, in movies, with your friends.

0:08:13

There are so, so many ways, but a lot of it is bringing female pleasure and the clitoris into the limelight, and why the clitoris? Because, as you said earlier, very few women orgasm from penetration alone.

The old stats used to say 75% don't. Now, later stats, those questions were like, “Can you orgasm from intercourse?” There’s such a pressure to do that, and people will say yes if it happened once. And so, later studies asked women, “Can you orgasm from just a thrusting penis?” Only 15% say yes, and in research I’ve conducted when I ask, “What’s your most reliable route to orgasm,” only 4% say penetration alone, and we know that when women pleasuring themselves less than 2% do so exclusively with penetration, the rest need clitoral stimulation alone or combined. So that’s why getting the clitoris in the limelight is very important.

0:09:12

Then, in terms of individual bedrooms, my book is a combination of feminist analysis to close it culturally and prescriptive self-help, and I’ll just tell you what the four self-help chapters are, and then if you want, dive into any of those deeper.

The first is get to know your own anatomy. You can't use it well or teach others to if you don't know it so really educating yourself and taking a look, that’s the first step.

The second step is working with the sex organ between your mind. We are subject to so many sex-negative thoughts that they become part of us, and making those conscious and changing them. Like, “Sex is for me,” instead of, “If it’s good for him, it’s good for me.”

Then, learning mindfulness because so many of us during sex and in life, right, our body’s doing something and our mind’s doing something else. We could be receiving oral sex and thinking, “Do I look okay? Do I smell okay? Oops, I forgot to return that email,” and all of those things are super normal and super common, and nobody’s in their body all the time, but learning to notice when your mind leaves your body and bring it back.

0:10:20

Then, masturbation. Self-pleasure is essential. Touch yourself, use a vibrator, use your hands, figure out what you like ‘cause everybody’s vulva needs something a little different. Don't stop there. Then, there are chapters on transferring that to partner sex. How? First, with good sexual communication in and out of the bedroom and, second, by changing the way we do scripts. No more foreplay just to get her ready for intercourse: intercourse, male orgasm, sex over. Change the scripts to turn-taking scripts. She cums first or she cums second or if you both want to orgasm during intercourse, use a position where you can get the clitoris stimulated. Use your hand or use a vibrator.

0:11:07

So that’s kind of an overview of both cultural and individual change.

Amanda Testa: I think, too, oftentimes when we work on the individual level, it does spread out (like you just mentioned earlier) around being able to know what you need and speak that in the bedroom. It expands everywhere, and I think, too, the more -- I’ve been doing this work for a while, too, and it gets me so fired up. It gets me so fired up, and I love it so much because I feel like there’s such potential and there’s such possibility and it does sometimes feel like will things change in my lifetime? Probably not, but I also have a ten-year-old, and I want them to know what’s possible and how, hopefully, they can have a different experience. I do feel like, in some ways, things are changing or maybe I just surround myself with things so it looks a little different, but I know in the big picture, oftentimes, we just don't even have that understanding of our own anatomy because of the lack of sex education. The lack even of -- you know, for professionals to have adequate education of our anatomy. Oftentimes the anatomy books don't even fully break down the anatomy of the vulva-bodied genitals. So I think that is something to note.

0:12:10

And so, I always find it so fascinating. I have a 3D model of the clitoris, and when I show it to people, often their minds are like, “What?!” I’m sure you probably notice that, too. Maybe even just talking a little bit more about the anatomy or your thoughts on that and how we can help educate about that.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yeah, well, we know in sex ed we don't cover anatomy. We put the boys in one room and they talk about wet dreams, and then they put the girls in others and talk about menstruation. That’s not the same. The girls learn about their uterus, basically. They don't learn -- and maybe their vagina’s mentioned, but that’s it. The vulva is what the real name is for the external anatomy, and it includes the outer lips, right, which is -- I’m gonna use a penis comparison, here, just ‘cause people know more about penises if that’s okay?

Amanda Testa: Sure.

0:13:04

Dr. Laurie Mintz: So the outer lips are sort of like the same thing that covers the balls - the sack. They just enclose what’s in to protect them. Then, there’s the inner lips. While they're called the inner lips, many stick out beyond the outer lips. That’s completely normal. One is bigger than the other, often. Those are made of the same embryonic tissue as the shaft of the penis. They’re hairless, they're full of touch-sensitive nerve endings and erectile tissue. You follow them up, it forms the clitoral hood which is made of the same embryonic tissue as the foreskin. Obviously, that’s what’s often removed in circumcision. You pull the head up and there’s the glands of the clitoris, and there are more nerve endings packed in a small space than anywhere on a human body, so intense that most can’t touch it directly, that’s painful.

0:14:00

They have to do it more indirectly through the hood or even through underwear or different types of touch. Above the clitoris is called the mons pubis, and that, you can describe it as a mound of fatty tissue, but what’s essential is it has the internal clitoris running through there so you can actually -- that’s why a lot of times if women push the palm of their hand there while they're stimulating the rest of themselves, it’ll feel really nice. I’m gonna come back to the internal clitoris in a moment. There’s also the vaginal opening, the anal opening. The anal opening isn't officially on the vulva, but I’m gonna mention it. Both openings have a lot of nerve endings surrounding them, and the inner third of the vaginal canal (which is the inside part) has touch-sensitive nerve endings. The upper part has pressure-sensitive nerve endings. So the bottom line is that for the vast majority of us, all of the pleasure-sensitive nerve endings we need to orgasm are on the outside, not the inside.

0:15:04

But the internal clitoris which was only discovered for the first time in about 1997, although it was written about in the sixties by a group of feminist women and that’s often over-looked, but it was not in the scientific journals ‘til later. Helen O’Connell is responsible for that - a wonderful urologist. Bottom line is the clitoris is massive. It is a massive internal organ. It has legs. It has bulbs. The bulbs surround the vaginal canal, and it’s chock full of erectile tissue.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I always think that’s such a beautiful thing to note is that vulva-bodied people have as much erectile tissue as penis-bodied people, it’s just in different spots.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Exactly. One of my favorite urologists says that the -- I love the way she says this, Rachel Rubin. It flips everything around. She says that the penis is just a big external clitoris.

0:16:00

Amanda Testa: Yeah. [Laughs] I love that, and I think it’s so important to talk about this because so often we don't know what we don't know, and so, even as well-educated people we still don't know what we don't know. I know when I first started learning more about this, I was in my thirties, and I was blown away at what I didn't know about my own body, and I have a college education. So it’s just we don't know these things.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: We’re never taught!

Dr. Laurie Mintz: They don't teach it. I mean, I teach it in my class, but it’s not a required class, and it’s brand new information to most of my students.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm. And so, I think sharing this information far and wide for all people so that we can work to understand our anatomy so we can better work with it --

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: -- and better learn how to pleasure it.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Exactly. Exactly. 

Amanda Testa: Another thing you mentioned that I want to go back to, also, is the mindset piece because there is so much that can come up around everything that has come on top of you since you came into the world around sex and how it affects your ability to be present, to enjoy your experience, to let yourself surrender to the experience versus feeling too busy or, oftentimes, I know a lot of people that want to be in control, they don’t like that feeling of losing control or letting go or leaning into the pleasure and letting it take over. So I’m curious what you might say about that.

0:17:16

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yeah. The mindfulness piece is so big. I once told a client that her biggest sex organ was between her ears, and she looked down at herself and said, “I guess I’ve been looking in the wrong place all these years,” but the truth is that the brain is essential in so many ways, and that the way you think about sex, the shame that you carry, the negative feelings - you have to get rid of those. Again, being able to be present in your body, which is so hard. I mean, I can say it like, “Oh, be present in your body,” but it takes so much time and practice, and the one thing that I love to share with people to underscore that is that the latest brain research shows that the mind state right before an orgasm is almost identical to the brain state of deep mindfulness, meditation.

0:18:09

So that tells us that turning off that thinking, judging of oneself, constantly self-monitoring part of oneself is not optional. It is a requirement for orgasm.

Amanda Testa: I’m curious, too, when you share this with people, what are some of the tips that you advise to kind of allowing them to be more present?

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Well, you know, a lot of times we’ll talk about do you meditate, but a lot of times I’m dealing with really busy people, and if I say, “Have a meditation practice?” They're like, “Nuh-uh, not happening,” or they can't quiet their mind enough for meditation. So I do encourage people to even try six to ten minutes a day. I’ll share my own unique meditation practice.

Every morning I get my coffee (which I love, right?) and I sit down in front of my candles that I light, and I put in my earbuds, and I put in meditation music, and I drink my first cup of coffee that way.

0:19:11

It literally takes six minutes, but I try to fully focus. The candles, the vision, the smell of the candles, the feeling of the warmth on my hands, the music, and really try to focus on those senses just for six minutes, and I’ll tell you, in those six minutes, my mind can wander anywhere from one to one hundred times, and that’s not a failure. That’s the practice is noticing and going, “Oops, there she goes again,” and bringing it back, but for people who don't even want to do a meditation practice, there is another way. You can learn this in daily life. Like, the next time you brush your teeth, how many times are we just mindlessly brushing our teeth or washing our hands or washing the dishes or even going to the bathroom? Anything that involves physical sensations, practice it during those times.

0:20:04

Practice really honing in on the physical sensations, noticing when your mind wanders, and then bringing it back when you notice it.

Amanda Testa: I love that so much, and I find that so -- I mean, it’s easy to do and easy not to do, right?

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Right.

Amanda Testa: I am always teaching just take a minute and drop into your senses or whatever you're experiencing, no matter what it is ‘cause, like you say, oftentimes people put a lot of pressure on themselves of what a mindfulness practice needs to look like. “Oh, I have to get up an hour earlier, and I have to do all this and that.” I’m like, “No, you don't. You can just live your life,” and depending on my days, it’s always different. Like today, I didn't feel like getting up, and then when I did, I just sat there and petted the dog for ten minutes. I was so tired, and that was it, right? We were just cuddling, and I was petting the dog and just feeling. His fur is so soft. He just got a bath, you know, and letting that be it! I was like this is a good one.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: That’s mindfulness. You were immersed in the sensations of petting your lovely dog who just had a bath, and you could really focus. That’s mindfulness in daily life. That’s such a beautiful example.

0:21:09

Amanda Testa: And how exactly does that translate to better sex? I’d like if you would share a little more about that in more detail.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yes, okay, so you cannot have an orgasm when you're thinking, “Do I look okay? Do I smell okay? Oh, m gosh, I forgot to do that email.” Having an orgasm, having pleasure requires an ability to focus on your sensations and get out of your head. So once you start getting good at it in your daily life, then you can practice, then you can apply it to the bedroom. I always have my clients try a couple weeks in their daily life and figure out what works. For some, it’s just focusing on a sensation. For others, it’s the breath. Then, once you learn to be in your body and to notice when your mind wanders and bring it back, then you can do that in bed, and that is a building block, an essential foundation for pleasure and orgasm, to focus on your body.

0:22:08

Amanda Testa: Ah, so important. I would love, too, if you would share a little bit -- ‘cause I know a lot of your research and work is also around low libido or finding the passion again in long-term relationships. I know a lot of the listeners fall into that camp. And so, I’d love to change gears a little bit and kind of dive in a little more to some of the challenges around the busy-ness of life that gets in the way of the sexual connection and what people can do to kind of get that desire back.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yeah, so before we do that, what I want to do is divine desire ‘cause the definition of desire is key to this situation. So when we think about desire in our culture, we think about it as feeling horny which is actually the beginning of arousal. It is not just desire. When you're horny, your genitals are throbbing, you might be a little wet, tingly.

0:23:03

That’s what people say they’re meaning when they're horny, but that’s actually the beginning of arousal, and what happens -- and this is so important. It’s just so unknown, though, in the popular culture. The older you get (for most people) and (most important) the longer a relationship goes on, the less horniness you feel. That’s just natural, and then people go, “Oh, no, what’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with my relationship?” without realizing this is normative, and so what do you do about it? You use a different type of desire.

There’s a very important type of desire that is not in the popular press. If it was, if people knew about this, they wouldn't feel so abnormal. Some people call it responsive desire, some people call it receptive desire, but what is it? It’s the idea I am open to the idea of sex for reasons other than being horny.

0:24:00

In fact, someone did a study (I love this) and there were 237 reasons that people have sex. Being horny was only one of them and it wasn't even the top reason. It might be because you know it’ll be good when it gets going. It might be because you’ll feel closer with your partner after. You might get better sleep. Whatever.

So, a lot of times people do that, and then they call it duty sex, like, “Oh, this is duty sex ‘cause it started without horniness,” and I say, “No, no, no. If it was fun when it got going, congratulations! You're using a sex therapy technique. That’s not duty sex! It’s only duty sex if it’s not good when it gets going which is a different problem.” If people haven't been doing it, they’ve stopped having sex because they don't feel horny, I say don't wait to be horny to have sex. Reverse the equation, and have sex to get horny. In this model (and it’s based in science) horniness comes after touch, and it’s much more circular. So that’s the most important thing.

0:25:10

The other important thing for people struggling with this is scheduling sex. Now, that doesn't sound sexy, right, but I don't like to use the word “scheduled sex.” I like to use the word “tryst.” What’s a tryst? A planned meeting between lovers. Nothing happens in our adult life, really, without scheduling it. I mean, here we are on this podcast today, right? ‘Cause we both put it in our calendar, we got ready for it, we made space for it, we got in the headspace to talk to each other, and here we are having a nice conversation, and the same is true of sex. It doesn't just happen when you’ve got a job and kids and pets and aging parents and whatever else you’ve got going on in your life so you need to create the space for it. Decide your ideal frequency and schedule it and make time for it.

A lot of times people are like, “No, no, that’s so unromantic. Sex has to be spontaneous!”

0:26:05

I say, “I don't think it ever was. Think about when you were dating. You took a shower, you got dressed, you put on your nice underwear, you put on perfume, you flirted all night, and [Gasp] wow! The night ended in sex. That wasn't spontaneous; it was well-orchestrated. It was planned even then.” So letting go of that myth that it has to be spontaneous.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s such a good point because people do forget that, and it can be really easy -- you know, especially after these past few years of being homebound and being in sweats and stuck with the people in your house for extended periods, and you're like, okay, we need to shake things up a bit. Put a little effort in on both parts, right? Or however your relationship combinations come together, but it’s the effort sometimes that feels good, right? It’s even kind of like that ritual, and every time you do these repetitive things, it’s kind of signaling to different parts of your brain, like, oh, something special’s gonna happen here! 

0:27:02

Whether it is just taking a shower or lighting a candle or whatever it might be, right?

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely. Exactly. You know, saving energy and time and making sure to schedule your tryst, if you can, not right before bed ‘cause so many times what happens is we’re exhausted, we get into bed, and it’s like, “Oh, I just want to sleep.” A lot of our circulating hormones responsible for good sex are lower at night. So making sure that you're engaging in an encounter when you're really physically able and ready to do so.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. I know you mentioned, too, the other camp where, say someone used to have a lot of excitement and used to enjoy sex (whether or not it was when it got started or after the responsive desire kicked in or whatever), but then now it’s where they're like, “Well, I don't feel anything,” or, “I don't have the pleasure I once had.” I think that’s a lot of frustration for a lot of women that I talk to as they age is sometimes feeling like, “I don't have that same sensation that I once had.” I’m curious if you could speak to that a little bit.

0:28:10

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yeah, well, first of all, that is a really important issue, and it’s not psychological. This is a biological issue, and people often don't know this and feel like something’s wrong with them. As we age, when we get to perimenopause, our estrogen decreases, and with decreased estrogen comes a lot of things - sleeplessness, hot flashes, moodiness, vaginal dryness. Then, penetrative activities can become painful, but what people don't know is there are solutions to this. See your gynecologist. See a sexual medicine physician. They can prescribe you all kinds of things - vaginal moisturizers. There are some over the counter, but they can also prescribe vaginally-inserted estrogen or Systemic Hormone Therapy which has gotten a bad rap, but recently, the American Menopause Association endorsed it for everyone except a very small percentage of the population. So see your physician.

0:29:09

Also, lube is your friend no matter your age. But as we get older, especially, even with vaginal moisturizers, or even young people, sometimes what we feel in our head is not reflected in our body and vice versa. Using a lube, putting it on your vulva, putting it a little bit inside your vagina, you’ve got to have that moisture to get going, and it’ll help create more moisture.

Also, as we get older, we often need much more intense or specific pinpointed stimulation, and figuring out what that is and getting it, alone and with a partner. Often, I’m a huge proponent of vibrators, and the research shows that women who use them have easier and more frequent orgasms, they have better sexual health, etcetera. I can get into all the details, but here’s something really interesting.

0:30:03

Our clitorises, and actually the head of the penis, have special cells that are found nowhere else in the body that are responsive to vibration. People have been using vibration for years, and that can help get over the lack of arousal. Mindfulness has been shown in studies to help with that.

So try all those things, and if none of that works or if none of any of this works, that’s a really good time to see a sex therapist who can help you with figuring out what’s going on and why, but start with your physician, start with a vibrator, start with lube, start with mindfulness.

Amanda Testa: And it can be such a fun exploration. There’s such a huge variety of sex toys available now. There are really great companies that are making all kinds of fun toys. So it can be just a fun exploration, and that can be another way to potentially add in some novelty. [Laughs]

0:31:06

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely. Absolutely, and that’s the other thing. Sometimes people aren’t too tired for sex or too stressed for sex, they're tired of the sex they're having. So adding in some novelty, trying new things -- I always encourage my clients don't ever do anything that sounds aversive ever, but do stretch your boundaries to try new things.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I think, too, that’s something around the sexual communication piece which you spoke to earlier that even just maybe you could share a tip or two around bringing things up with your partner that you want to maybe expand your sexual repertoire or you don't want to go right up to them and be like, “Our sex is no good. I’m not enjoying it,” no. Like, what’s the right way to do it? [Laughs]

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Well, first of all, start outside the bedroom.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: And use good general communication skills. What you just said is really bad, right? “You're bad. I don't like this.” Nobody’s gonna respond well to this.

0:32:04

Own it. Own it and use “I” statements (sentences that start with I). Don't ask questions that aren’t questions. We’re socialized to do that. You know, like, “Do you want to have sex?” That’s never a question. It either means I do, and I hope you do or I really don't, and I hope you don't. Use what I call meta communication - communicating about communicating. So you might say something like, “I want to talk to you about something, and I’m really nervous to do this ‘cause I’m afraid you're gonna feel defensive, but I’m not talking to you to criticize you. I’m talking to you because I really love our sex life and I want it to be the best it can be. And I was listening to this podcast, and I learned that when we schedule sex and use vibrators and really experiment and take the time to build arousal, most women have many more orgasms.

0:33:00

I know my pleasure’s important to you, and it’s important to me too just like yours is. So I’d really like to try those things. What are your reactions?” That’s the real question at the end. That’s the only real question. So that’s kind of a script you can use. Start with meta communication, be loving, non-critical, and own it. “I” statements. 

Amanda Testa: I think that is such a beautiful script. I was just gonna say, too, for all of those listening, I always put the transcript in the show notes page. So make sure, if you want a word-for-word script, you can go back to the transcript and get it ‘cause I think that’s such a great way. Sometimes we’re just like, “Give me the script!” Obviously, you can digest it in your own words, but I love that meta communication concept and just making sure it’s a what is the reaction not like -- that’s not a question.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Exactly, and you can use meta communication in the middle of a conversation too. Like, “I feel like things are going downhill and we’re getting tense with each other. I don't want that to happen. I want us to talk and be on the same page.”

0:34:02

It’s communicating about communication. At the end, too: “How do you feel that talk went? I’d like us to talk more about sex. How did that go for you?”

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and, like you mentioned earlier too, when it feels like you're stuck or there’s maybe not the willingness that you’re hoping for or whatever it might be, you can always seek professional help because sometimes we do need that.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I’d love to know, too -- I know we’ve covered so much good information, and I feel like there’s so much more, but I’m wondering if there are any other important concepts or anything else that you feel is really important to share that you’d like to talk about.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: That is such a good question. I think we’ve actually covered very much everything that I would really want people to know except that I just want to give listeners: your pleasure is important, and there are techniques out there to enhance it, and you're fine the way you are.

0:34:59

There’s so much concern about am I normal - “Are my inner lips normal?” “Is the way I masturbate normal?” You are fine. Stop using the word normal and just figure out what works for you. That would be my only message that we haven't covered.

Amanda Testa: I love that. Right, there is so much that’s common but not normal, and then there is no normal sometimes, right, when it comes to everyone’s body is different. Everyone’s innervated a little differently. Everyone’s body looks different. Everyone's genitals look different. That’s the beauty of it, right?

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: The diversity of the way we are.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Exactly. Yes, exactly.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Yes.

Amanda Testa: Ah, well, I have so, so enjoyed talking with you, Dr. Laurie. I’d love to know, as well, if you could share with everyone listening what are the best ways to stay connected with you and all of that good stuff.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Sure, and I’ve enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for having me on.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: You can find me on my website, www.drlauriemintz.com. So that’s D-R-L-A-U-R-I-E-M-I-N-T-Z, and, there, you’ll find links to my Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, all of that, but on all of those social medias, I have the same handle. It’s all @drlauriemintz so you can find me there as well.

0:36:13

Amanda Testa: She’s always got such amazing info that’s shared there and such great tips. I also encourage you to check out her books as well. Becoming Cliterate, I so recommend. 

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Thank you! Thank you so much, I appreciate that, and those are available anywhere books are sold.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s the beauty of books, right? We can do so much to educate ourselves if we’re just open.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: Absolutely, yes.

Amanda Testa: Just having the openness and curiosity is just such a beautiful way to approach these subjects, I think.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: I could not agree more.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Well, thank you so much again for being here.

Dr. Laurie Mintz: It has been my pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and thank you so much, too, to everyone listening. I’ll make sure to add all of Dr. Laurie’s contact information in the show notes as well as the transcript. So thank you again for being here, and thank you all for listening!

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

0:37:03

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

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EPISODE 233: Pleasure in Movement with Mark Testa

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. If you are curious to find more ways to have more energy and even feel like you're in the mood, feel desire, today, I want to talk about finding pleasure in movement because I truly believe that pleasure is foundational in so many ways, and when we are looking at our overall holistic wellbeing, there are a lot of things that come into play when it comes to feeling good and having desire and feeling empowered in our sexuality. I love how we can actually cultivate energy from within. I love doing this with sexual energy but also just the importance of movement in general.

0:01:01

My husband and I were actually riding back from a trip away this weekend, and we were talking about this because when it comes to feeling good in our bodies, there are so many things that we can do, and a lot of the time it’s easy to do and easy not to do, right?

So, actually, I’m bringing my lovely husband, Mark Testa, on the podcast again today. Welcome, Mark.

Mark Testa: Hi, Amanda, nice to see you again.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Mark Testa: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I’m gonna be talking about finding pleasure in movement because we were talking about this yesterday and just how much better you can feel with minimal -- it doesn't have to be things that are overwhelming, but let’s just chat for a minute about this, Mark, because I know we had such a good discussion in the car yesterday, and I was like this would make such a good episode.

So tell me. Why are you passionate about this topic?

Mark Testa: Well, really, I mean, we have this vessel (our body) that, you know, we want to get pleasure out of, but if it’s not healthy, if you're sick, if you can’t move, if you have aches and pains, there’s not much pleasure associated with that.

0:02:08

There are ways to get our vessel (our body) healthier. We were talking about this yesterday. I think the number one thing that most people don't want to do, and (you know, I’ve taken care of patients for 30 years) most people don't do that is the main needle that will move everything else is exercise. Like you said, it’s easy to do, it’s easy not to do, and I’m not talking about doing a triathlon or a marathon or spending hours a day in the gym. I’m just talking about very simple, basic things. I don't want to sound like the profit of doom, but I think it’s important to talk about why this is so important for our physical health, our vessel, for it to be healthy. I’m gonna start with some stats.

0:03:06

I know we talk a lot about nutrition and supplements and which diet’s right for us, but this exercise reduces all-cause mortality by 50%. Anything that can kill you, short of a trauma, this will reduce by 50%. No diet has ever shown that. No supplement has ever shown that. So, to me, if you're gonna start somewhere, we just start by moving our body.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, and I think what’s so interesting, too, is ‘cause I feel like so often people just want an easy button. They want a pill or something that’s easy, and, honestly, there are ways to do things that can add up to be a lot of things in easy ways, but there is no magic pill, right? There’s no magical way to get your desire back or there’s no -- even Viagra. That serves a purpose, but there’s also downsides to it. I’m just saying because we have to look at our whole selves.

0:04:04

The reason why I want to talk about movement is because, not only is it so powerful in just keeping you healthy, but also as we look at being overwhelmed, one of the main issues I see with clients and a lot of the research out there around why women have so much trouble around desire and sexuality, there are numerous parts to it, but one is overwhelm. One is just being burned out, and I love how, actually, Emily Nagoski and her sister address this in their book, Burnout. But the beautiful thing about even just 20 minutes of exercise is it gives your body that feeling of completing a stress cycle because it’s like you're trying to escape from the lion. Granted, we aren’t in a world where we’re being chased by lions, but our biology still thinks that we are, often, and so, when we have a lot of stress, we can feel like that, right? And so, when you give your body an experience like it has survived, it outran the lion, that can really help reduce your overall stress. There are numerous ways to do that (which I’ll talk about in a minute) that can be really easy.

0:05:07

But I’m curious, Mark, when it comes to some of those other health benefits, what were you going to share around that?

Mark Testa: Well, I was gonna start somewhere else, but let me just start where you talked about stress. So exercise definitely has been studied to reduce stress through the autonomic nervous system and improve the vagal tone (the vagus nerve) which a lot of people talk about. You can do it with breathing exercises and maybe exercise, because it stimulates breath, stimulates and improves vagal tone, and if you wear an Apple watch or you wear an Ōura ring or you wear a WHOOP, you can measure that through your heart rate variability. I mean, it’s a measurable metric.

But I think, equally as important, exercise addresses the leading cause of death in America which is cardiovascular disease. Again, better than diet, better than supplements, and women catch up to men in cardiovascular disease after menopause, and so, it is the leading cause of death.

0:06:09

So if we can start to exercise (again, 20 minutes a day) it really makes an impact on that. We’re starting to see arrhythmias like A-fib or ventricular fibrillations start to increase, too, in America. This has a really bad downstream effect of causing strokes. And so, exercise can really address the strength of the heart through getting it to work. It is a muscle.

Then, when you talk about Viagra or you talk about -- what’s the female libido?

Amanda Testa: Well, it’s called Addyi, but actually it’s not -- I had a Urogynecologist on talking about that drug, and it actually has not had a lot of positive reviews. Mostly, it has a lot of bad side effects and there’s a lot of contraindications. So it’s something to be very wary of. Again, if you want an easy pill, that might be a placebo which if that helps, great, but there are also a lot of downsides to that so I don't recommend that medication at all.

0:07:09

Mark Testa: But exercise, then, will increase nitric oxide flow which is what Viagra does. You cannot short-circuit the brain to get the result. There is no easy button, whether it’s male genitals or female genitals, you want blood flow.

Amanda Testa: Right, or non-binary, gender-expansive humans, however you want to refer to your genitals, I want to respect and name that too. But, honestly, there are so many things at play, often, with these kind of sexual, quote unquote, “dysfunctions,” and there are things -- sometimes you do have a medical need for something, and that is understandable, but oftentimes, there’s a lot of emotional things behind it, there are a lot of layers to it, and so, that’s why when we approach anything we’ve got to look at the whole body. I think one of the reasons I want to talk about exercise as foundation is because even just, like I was saying, making it easy, I would like to talk a little bit about finding pleasure in movement because, I know for myself, I was an athlete for many years.

0:08:06

I did triathlons. I ran long distances. I did a lot of things that I really enjoyed at the time, and, honestly, I feel like there is a fine line there, right? I also struggled with eating disorders and so many body image issues for so many years, and I feel like one of the things that got me over that was to have a different mindset around how I viewed what I take in, what I do, and it’s from a place of being aware and noticing what feels good versus berating myself and beating myself up. I want to name this because I think a lot of time with exercise, I know for myself, I used to be someone who would be like, “Oh, well, I ate a bag of chips, so now I’m bad, and I’m just gonna eat crappy all day, and I’m just gonna go down this rabbit hole, and, oh, I better work out and beat myself up,” and I did it as a punishment versus as something that felt good. I just want to name that because I feel like it’s one of those things where if we approach it from a pleasure-based mindset, it can be so much different.

0:09:10

Like, what are the ways that you enjoy moving? What are the ways that feel good? How can you bring in pleasure to your whole experience? I’ll talk more about that in a minute, but I know Mark has got something to say because he’s over here excited to share.

Mark Testa: [Laughs] No, you know, again, back to some of the physical things, too. I mean, I say these to help incentivize, mostly, people’s health, right? Diabetes is another thing that can easily be addressed. It’s not gonna reverse it, but, you know, when we exercise, it redistributes our body composition, right? You may lose weight. You may lose belly fat. These are things that are involved in diabetes and fatty liver (which is now almost an epidemic in America), and so, again, just more reasons to start moving.

0:10:01

Again, easy things which we’ll talk about here in a second. As we all age, we lose muscle. It happens after 40 years old. People start to lose muscle, and what does it get converted to? It doesn't even get converted. It gets replaced by fat.

And so, for men, fat breaks down into estrogen, and so, if there’s a loss of libido after midlife in males, it could be related to excess fat (belly fat, in particular). Fat is inflammatory. Inflammation, we know, feeds diabetes, dementia, cardiovascular disease, and arthritis. So if there’s pain in the body, it could be overstimulated in ways that are modifiable by our behavior, but also the last point about losing muscle, if we fall (especially after 65) and break a limb (usually it’s the hip or the femur), there’s a 50% mortality in the first year.

0:11:12

So that means the chances of someone dying after a hip fracture in the first year is 50%. Not to mention, how poor the quality of life will become, generally, for the people who survive that first year.

So movement like this is far-reaching into our health, but when we talk about it around pleasure, it’s, again, our body. We want to be able to use our body for pleasurable things, whether that’s in relationship with our partners or enjoying our environment or enjoying the people who we love being around (children, grandchildren) or traveling. You know, in my career, I saw so many people who were gonna wait until they retire to do something and then couldn't do it because they had pain, and so, their life went from work to the ability to excess zero pleasure after they retired. We want to access things now because we don't ever know what we’re gonna have later.

0:12:16

Amanda Testa: Right. I mean, and the reason, again, why I am talking about this is because I feel like it’s such -- when I think about the foundations that we need for thriving, right, there are a lot of base-level things. A lot of times I work with women who are so overwhelmed and tired that they really have a hard time finding what feels good, finding ways to find pleasure, and so little things that we can tweak into our daily routines -- I love talking about the groundskeeper archetype. You know I talk about this a lot with weeding and watering, adding in what is good, and taking away what’s not, and I think by just adding in more pleasurable movement in a day, that can feel good. And so, what are some ways you can do that?

Honestly, I love making things easy so when I think about making moving my body feel pleasurable, what are the things that feel good to me, and listening and turning into what that is day by day.

0:13:07

I think I learned this a lot through my own self-pleasure practice, honestly, because it’s like listening and tuning into what you need each day, in all the ways, right? So when I broke my ankle last year (it’s been like a year now, and I’m finally feeling better) I couldn't do a lot of movement, and so, that was really hard, I noticed, because, for me, I kind of went into a depression after that. Finding new ways to move -- obviously, based on your ability there are modifications that you can make. And so, I still modify, but what I like is ease, right? That’s one of the things I like is ease. So I just workout at home. I used to be a personal trainer so I’ve got all of the accoutrements. Even just like an inexpensive resistance band you can get a lot out of.

And so, I love just getting up and rolling downstairs in my PJs and working out. Half the time, Mark will poke in laughing ‘cause I’m in my nightgown, like, I don't even have a jogger on, whatever. I just do it.

0:14:02

The zero barrier to entry for me is enjoyable. I know some people love going to the gym or have a workout class or whatever it is that they love - the community aspect of that. I used to love when I used to run and (again, that’s one of the things is listening to your body) my body doesn't like that anymore. I love to run but my body does not. It hurts, and, at this age, I just have to honor what my body’s telling me, and so, even then just finding that community. I used to meet up with these running groups and all this and that, and it was so fun because I feel like that’s one of the things that we often -- I think a lot of the mindset I see out there is punishment, right? It’s a punishing thing. Even when we go to certain workout classes, and they’re yelling, and they're like, “Come on! You can do this!” and yelling at you, “It hurts! Feel the pain!” I hate that so much because that, to me, is the antithesis of what I’m going for. I used to be all about that, right? I used to be an endurance athlete, so I know what it’s like to feel pain and push through it, but there’s a difference between doing it in a way that’s punishing and doing it in a way that’s loving and encouraging. So I want to talk about that for a moment, and I’m curious, Mark, your thoughts there.

0:15:09

Mark Testa: Yeah, I agree, right? Low barriers to entry so we can move our body. You know, if you're not used to exercising, get a decent pair of shoes on and you could go for a walk. Walking is definitely very beneficial for cardiovascular health, respiratory health, movement-of-your-joints health. Thirty minutes or twenty minutes if it’s too much. I have an exercise bike in the house so I get my cardio on that, generally. While I’m doing that, I am reading a blog, I am listening to a podcast,  I am catching up on some other things. So maybe it’s not the best way, but for me, that’s what I need to do. I multitask, and I find that pleasurable because people always ask me, “How do you listen to so many books?” It’s when I exercise or when I’m walking the dog when I do that, and so, that’s an easy way.

0:16:07

Then like Amanda with her ankle, we all have aches and pains. I’ve got mine, and so, I want to continue to build muscle. I don't want to lose muscle ‘cause I am over 40, and so, I still lift heavy weights, but instead of just going to the gym and lifting heavy barbells, I’ve had to modify a lot of those things and use dumbbells now, and I use a lot of machines that guide the motion so that I can restrict or limit the painful ranges that I do have but still get the benefits out of it. Again, I’m usually getting something additional out of it that is pleasurable to me like listening to a book or a podcast and doing other things while I’m working out. Then, we walk together. We walk the dog a lot. We get out into our neighborhood. We walk up to the square together and get coffee. That’s always a great thing. That’s a mile-round trip, and it serves a lot of purposes.

0:17:06

Amanda Testa: Right. I think the other thing, too, that’s fun is what are the fun things that you enjoy, right? Dancing - it can be that simple. Can you put on a song and dance to it? Can you go outside and feel the sun on your skin or the elements, whatever they may be? I love when it’s snowing or if it’s raining and I’m out with the dog because no one’s out, and I love that so much. It’s like the quiet that comes with that, and so, for me, being in nature is a big resource for me. It’s something that rejuvenates me. So I love going hiking or just even walking in the woods or even if we have some kind of issue where we can’t, even just going and sitting in nature and letting that be good. Even just squeezing all the muscles in your body and holding it really tight for 20 seconds. Squeezing every muscle in your body, clenching hard, squeezing, and then [Sighs] relaxing. Even that is going to give you that effect of moving your body.

0:18:03

So there are ways that you can be creative in finding the movement, and so, I always feel like, yeah, what’s the pleasurable way? For tuning in again to what your body wants is, like, is it more gentle? Is it just yoga? Mark and I, we used to love to do Yoga with Adriene on YouTube. It’s free, and it was, like, 25 minutes, and it was such a great thing to do especially as I started moving again after I could walk after my ankle injury and just being able to do something gentle felt so good for my body. So even if it’s just gentle stretching, it’s like really just giving your body some love I feel like, at the end of the day, is what’s so important.

Mark Testa: In coming back to your ankle, I think there’s a lot to talk about there because, you know, it did hurt you, it did impact you physically, but it impacted us as a family and as a couple ‘cause we couldn't do things together. You were laid up, literally, non-weight-bearing for six weeks. That was difficult.

0:19:00

So if our partner, our significant other has got health things that are limiting them, that really does spill over into the ecosystem of your home and your relationship. And so, this idea of finding pleasure in movement goes beyond just you as the person and more into you as the couple, you as the ecosystem of your family and things like that.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so true because, I mean, even as we’re talking now, I think I’ve shared with you before, Mark has had some issues, and he had to have another heart procedure last week, and, thankfully, he’s doing amazing, obviously, here as we’re talking about this, but how it is really challenging when you are at the age where people are injured or have health issues and how to navigate that as a couple. It can be very common for depression to set in if someone has an injury.

0:20:00

And so, being empathetic and understanding if that is the case and always knowing you can reach out for additional support if you need. Oftentimes, you can find resources through your doctor or if you want additional support in that area then, definitely, I urge reaching out because that’s very important.

Mark Testa: You know, let me just address, real quick, depression. It reminds me of a patient I saw in the late ‘90s who would come to me for acupuncture, and it helped her depression. But it was a cost for her every time to see me, and it wasn't really getting to any root causes. It reminded me of numerous articles between the ‘90s and today that show that exercise can relieve mild to moderate depression better than medications, really, without the side effects either. With mostly upside effects. And so, when it comes to mood, again, there’s just no shortcut to changing some of that because some of these medications come with really adverse side effects that people don't want, but exercise can be a really good solution to mild to moderate depression, among other things.

0:21:13

Amanda Testa: Right? Also, I think that mental health piece, that’s why when we’re looking at our sexual function and our pleasure and our ability to enjoy that connection, there are so many aspects to it, and even if you're just doing 150 minutes a week -- isn't that what you said?

Mark Testa: That’s about it, yeah.

Amanda Testa: A hundred and fifty minutes a week of some kind of exercise can be a huge change-maker. That’s why I do 20-minute workouts ‘cause I’m like 20 minutes? I can do that. It’s easy for me because 20 minutes I know I can do.

What’s the story you had about the minute?

Mark Testa: The minute?

Amanda Testa: With your music teacher?

Mark Testa: Oh, yeah. Right, when I started playing percussion, he would tell us, “Look, go home and practice. All I want you to do is one minute a day,” and we were all very puzzled by that.

0:22:02

Like, one minute a day? How am I gonna get better with one minute a day? But what that was, was a very simple, “Well, I can do that.” But then one minute turns into five, turns into fifteen, turns into twenty, and it was like the next thing you know, because you're enjoying yourself and you didn't have any preconceived notion of, “Oh, I’ve got to crank out 30 minutes of this,” which sounds like drudgery sometimes when you're starting ‘cause you're no good at it, one minute, you could do, and it turned more and more into more and more time which also kind of leads to the next analogy.

Really, a farmer doesn't plant a seed and expect to see it crop the next day, so, again, this also takes time to develop, but I bet most people will see a benefit to exercising within seven days (really quickly). You know, you’re not gonna see a change in your body composition, but you're gonna notice, “Hey, maybe I’m sleeping better. Maybe it’s easier for me to move my body. I’m getting up with less morning stiffness.”

0:23:08

And then there’s the whole idea (similar to the drumming) of momentum, right? So once you do it three times a week or four times a week, now, all of a sudden, you've got momentum behind it, that sort of flywheel approach where now it’s going, and it’s really easy to do. You’ve built it into your routine, and you just show up every day and the next thing you know you’ve enjoyed it, you feel good, you're seeing the benefits, and it’s easy to continue to do.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think finding that momentum around feeling good, it does spread out. Like Mark said, even just after a couple weeks you’ll notice you feel better, and I notice for me, I can tell you I go through periods when I really, really have a good ritual and routine around moving my body and other times where it’s harder. And so, when I get back into the regular rhythm of moving my body in ways that feel good, I do notice I have more energy and I do notice I feel better, and, honestly, there’s a lot of benefit to how you show up in the bedroom, right?

0:24:17

Often, when we have better cardiovascular health and mood there’s a more positive body image. I’m not talking about trying to force yourself into some, as Audre Lorde says, the -- oh, my gosh, I’m having a mental block right now because we just spilled chocolate on the floor, and I’m like, “It’s staining the rug!” These are the things my mind thinks about. Side note.

Yes, so back to the topic at hand. Oh, yes, The Mythical Norm, and just how much pain and misery that causes people to try to look like some unrealistic norm. Thank goodness that’s changing a little bit where there’s more diversity in the images you see in magazines and here, that, and the other.

0:25:01

I, personally, really highly recommend diversifying your feed, diversifying what you take in, looking at lots of different bodies and sexual orientations, and ways people are together so that you can open your mind to what is normal because what we have been conditioned to be normal is not, right? it’s very not normal, and so, I see so many women that struggle with body image and, because of that, don't want to have sex or don't want to be seen naked and just how much it causes pain and suffering and how we can really change that. We can change that.

And so, when you feel better, then, you know, you want to be intimate, and also, it makes it more comfortable to move your body into different positions, right? Sex is a physical act, let’s be honest, and when you're in pain, you can always find ways to adjust things and modify things so, again, if you need help in those areas you can always reach out. But how fun it can be to have more energy and when you have more energy, it creates more energy. I know that cultivating your sexual energy is another thing I talk about a lot because it is part of our overall wellbeing, right? If we have a lot of stagnancy, a lot of things that aren’t moving, then it’s harder to connect to that energy in us.

0:26:16

Mark Testa: And so, not that I’m a physics wiz, I just remember this from physics class. One of the laws of thermodynamics is that energy can neither be created or destroyed. It just can be transferred, and so, you can transfer energy into your body with drugs and stimulants, but that has a short-lived life cycle. You can transfer energy from movement and food and, now, all of a sudden, you have more energy. So when it comes to what you just said, I think you can cultivate it by transferring it from one region to another.

0:27:00

Amanda Testa: That is true. I mean, and actually I was just looking at a study on physiological sexual arousal following acute exercise, and there’s some that it pointed out like it’s driven by increases in sympathetic nervous system activity and endocrine factors. Chronic exercise lightly enhances sexual satisfaction indirectly by preserving autonomic flexibility which benefits cardiovascular health and mood. Positive body image due to chronic exercise also increases sexual wellbeing. I think that’s interesting to note because, a lot of times, what happens with arousal is we have to also be able to hold, not only -- our nervous system needs to function in a way where we’re not constantly in either a sympathetic or a parasympathetic tone. It bounces back and forth all the time, and that’s normal, right? We want to be in that range of resilience which is where we can easily ride the waves of our lives without falling into extreme overwhelm or depression and shutdown, and so, when we exercise, too, it enhances our capacity for arousal which means, again, we can hold more of that good feeling, too.

0:28:12

Mark Testa: Which I’m snickering over here remembering my anatomy class. We always used little stories to remember things, but parasympathetic in the sacrum, right, which affects men and women, but we remembered is, “S234 keeps the dingdong off the floor.” [Laughs] We had all kinds of silly things like that.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Mark Testa: Right? A male cannot have an erection or stimulation in any general region (male, female, or nonbinary) without some sort of parasympathetic tone which we already learned earlier that exercise stimulates the vagus nerve in ways like that. And so, to get parasympathetic-tone healthy, there are beautiful effects on that.

0:29:03

Amanda Testa: Yes, and so, all this to say is I really feel like what are the foundations that you could look at to make some easy changes because there are easy things to do so maybe looking at what are the easy things if I’m going through my day and I’m thinking what needs to be weeded and watered? Where could I add in more movement that feels good? Where could I add in more care for myself in a loving way? Again, I think that’s the big key is looking at it in a way that can add more pleasure to your life versus this is something I have to do, this is something that’s annoying, this is something that’s painful, this is something that I don't enjoy. It’s finding a way to make it enjoyable and pleasurable because there are ways to do that. If you need help in that area, obviously, you know that we’re available and we’re here for you. But I would just encourage you to maybe look at those things. What are some ways that I can easily find some more movement? Maybe if it’s even just like I’m sitting all day (which we all are in this epidemic of sitting all day in this day and age) is how can I make little reminders to myself like I’m gonna do some full body squeezes.

0:30:04

I’m gonna squeeze my butt as hard as I can. Maybe I’m going to just have some things at my desk that I can just remind myself with. Maybe every hour I’m gonna stretch, I’m gonna get up. Maybe I’m gonna invest in a standing desk, all of these things. How can I be more loving to my vessel that is so important to enjoy pleasure in all the ways. Like Mark said, it’s not just sex in the bedroom; it’s how can I enjoy my life and be present to the things around me with less pain, with less overwhelm?

So that’s why I wanted to share that today, and thank you, Mark, for all your wisdom in this area.

Mark Testa: Thank you for having me on your show.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Mark Testa: I always enjoy it, and if anyone would like to reach out to me, I’ll offer it as well. If you’d like some exercise ideas or feedback, reach out to Amanda, and I’d be glad to give you any support I can.

Amanda Testa: Mark’s been in healthcare for 25+ years so he knows a thing or two which is what I always love when we talk about these things ‘cause we both get very passionate and fired up.

0:31:04

I, around doing things in a trauma-informed way and doing things in a way that is realistic and pleasurable and he, too, right, because he treats patients all the time, and he’s like, you know, people don't implement. Oftentimes, it’s because of the mindset that we’ve learned around all-or-nothing thinking, right? It’s either all or nothing. I’m good or bad. I see that so much. I see it so much. We have to realize that we can have multiple things happening at the same time, right? You can eat a bag of cookies and still be a good person. You can eat a bag of cookies and still love yourself. You don't have to beat yourself up, and we do. We shame the shit out of ourselves, and there are ways that you can evolve beyond that. You know what, it’s because of, unfortunately, our conditioning, right? We are just in this culture that we’re in, and so, it’s understandable that we would treat this all ourselves the way that we do, but there are techniques and there are methods to move through that, and I do feel like a lot of times, when I’m working with people around their sexuality, body image is a big part of it.

0:32:09

So this is a lot of what I talk about. Oftentimes, too, I think I mentioned before I was a personal trainer and I taught Stroller Strides (workouts for moms) for a long time, and that’s kind of one of the things that got me into this work around sexuality is because I would hear all of the complaints and all the struggles that moms face, and so, I get it. I also, too, lived that myself, and so, I know what you can do to feel better, and so, that’s why I like to also look at all the different holistic ways we can have more pleasure as a foundation in our lives.

I appreciate you listening, and I would love to hear any nuggets that you’re taking away. Again, thinking about what can I do to make this experience a little more pleasurable, whatever that is. All right? Sending you lots of love, and we will see you next week.

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

0:33:11

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Sasha Ostara is a Mexican multicultural woman, she's a Somatic Feminist,
Somatic Trauma Healer and Pleasure Coach Specializing in Female Sexuality, and Jade Egg.
She believes Vulva Love is a Feminist revolution, and pleasure as medicine and liberation.

Important links

               Follow Sasha on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sasha_ostara/

• • Feeling Safe In Your Body: https://www.sasha-ostara.com/safebody

  • Work with Sasha in her one-on-one coaching program, Unbroken: https://www.sasha-ostara.com/unbrokencoaching

  •   Work with Sasha in her group program, Untamed: https://www.sasha-ostara.com/untamed

  
  
  
  

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 232: Sasha Ostara

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Today, I am so thrilled and honored to be welcoming an amazing guest. We are going to be diving into somatic feminism. We are going to be diving into honoring our bodies and our vulvas as a way of connecting to our power and really using this to decolonize ourselves from the systems of oppression. I am so, so thrilled to welcome the incredible Sasha Ostara. Welcome, Sasha. She is a Somatic Feminist, and I love this term that she coined. We’re gonna talk more about that. She’s a Mexican-Lebanese multicultural mother. She’s a witch, a goddess, an amazing human, a powerful, powerful space holder, and I just am so thrilled to be talking with you today. Thank you so much for being here, Sasha.

0:01:09

Sasha Ostara: I’m so honored for this invitation. Thank you so much for allowing me the chance to be here with you, with your audience, and just to share this space with you. It means so much to me.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes. Well, I’m so excited to share more about you and your wisdom because I really feel like -- we were just talking about this before we started recording because we got to spend time together a few months ago in Costa Rica where we were space holding for our retreat and just talking about how when we can get together in those types of spaces, it really just brings out the best in us. It brings out that empowerment, the support (feeling that support), and, in this day and age, oftentimes, we are very siloed in a way because we’re still recovering from COVID, and just with the way it is, is we don't have that in person connection as much so it feels really good to be remembering that and also to connect energetically with you over the waves of the Zoom land. [Laughs]

0:02:05

Sasha Ostara: Yes, it’s so amazing how when, particularly, people that have been working on their own embodiment, their healing, these powerful witches get together, magic happens, and it’s exponential healing and an exponential empowering experience. I feel like that’s maybe my favorite part of sharing space with other powerful witches. It just feels like we grow exponentially in a couple of weeks.

Amanda Testa: It’s so true, and because we don't -- I feel like, we need more spaces like that where we can be celebrated and encouraged in that way versus most of our cultural experiences that are the exact opposite where we are not able to fully express that.

Sasha Ostara: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: So it’s so important, Yeah.

Sasha Ostara: And to be nourished. I feel like it’s just the same with sharing this, it’s like maybe the thing that makes magic be so evident is the fact that we get to be nourished by one another instead of being the sole providers of nourishment in our communities, in our environments.

0:03:15

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Sasha Ostara: It’s just usually the role that so many people with pussies crave.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Sasha Ostara: So many women just start becoming the immediate nourisher of our environments, our families. It’s so exhausting to be dealing with our kids, our husbands, our mothers, our families and friends. We need the spaces to just sit and receive. Oddly enough, we are also giving, but it’s such an energy exchange that it feels nourishing at the end of the day.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and for everyone out there listening, I’ll just invite you to try that on even for just now. How about you just sit back and relax and receive and let yourself be nourished through Sasha’s wisdom and our conversation.

0:04:03

Sasha Ostara: Yeah. Yeah, we all need a little bit more of receiving. We are so used to just giving. Let’s just receive for a change.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes to receiving. I’m wondering, too, because I know all of our stories are a very long web, but I’m wondering if maybe there’s one aspect that you might want to share about, really, what led you into your passion for this work.

Sasha Ostara: Ooh, that’s such a fascinating story because what led me to this work was that I needed it to survive because I was just about to give up on my dreams, my hopes, not my life, of course, but there was, at some point, a sense of “there’s nothing else for me. I guess, this was it. I guess this is as far as I will ever get in life.” I just felt that gloomy energy growing everyday in my life.

0:05:04

I had lost my joy, my humor, my desires, my ambition, my vision. I was feeling really lost in my own little world journey, and the thing with the journey into the underworld is that we risk hanging there for so long that we forget that we can actually start climbing back up.

So I was in that moment in which I was hanging in the underworld for too long, and I was just starting to give up and feeling like there was nothing else for me, and then my grandmother died. She was like my mom. She’s the person that raised me and is closest to me. When she died, I was hit by this force, by this arch of leaving, of thinking, okay, I don’t want to get to that point in my life and think that I didn't do anything with my life, that I just raised my kids and then was left empty with my emptiness and emptiness as well.

0:06:15

So I was pushed towards looking for more. That search led me back to my body. I had been looking for that in mythology, in meditation, in spiritual practices, but the one place I hadn’t looked for it was in my own body, in my own pleasure, and when that moment happened, in which I was just about to give up, about to just let life happen to me without really trying to make anything out of it, it was like a force inside of me woke up and said, “I’m not giving up on you. We need to make something with our lives. We need to experience pleasure again.”

0:07:04

For me, it was really an energy of Aphrodite. I usually share that it was Aphrodite, who I felt that had died, but then she came back and said, “Oh, no, I’m not dying. [Laughs] I’m reclaiming you. I am taking you back, and we are living life at our fullest.”

Amanda Testa: That is so powerful, and that you were able to listen to that call.

Sasha Ostara: Ah.

Amanda Testa: Which is not an easy thing to do either, right?

Sasha Ostara: Yeah, I am so grateful that I had the chance to listen. I am grateful for my grandmother because I feel like that was her biggest farewell gift, and, for me, she had to give me that because she was the woman that lived fully until she gave up on her pleasure. So it’s like healing that trauma.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Sasha Ostara: I have always focused on healing my family trauma, but I didn’t realize that that was a piece that needed healing as well, the piece of reclaiming my Aphrodite, my pleasure, my desire to live fully.

0:08:08

Amanda Testa: Ah, I love that so much. I’m wondering, too -- you know, I love how you mentioned you had searched everywhere for your own body. I’m wondering how you came upon that. What was the invitation into exploring that?

Sasha Ostara: Hmm, so I found that -- I had a spontaneous Kundalini awakening during a meditation. I could go on long, long meditations. At some point, I started meditating three or four hours a day, and my spirituality, up to that moment, was a spirituality of detachment from the body.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, yes.

Sasha Ostara: It was about leaving my body and moving to the higher spheres of consciousness. Then, I had this experience in which I felt my body pull me back, pull this consciousness back, and I started having waves of orgasms. It was like what’s going on? Is the universe having sex with me? What is happening? [Laughs]

0:09:14

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Sasha Ostara: I was having orgasm after orgasm in ways that I hadn’t experienced before. I feel like that was the moment in which something shifted when it came to connecting to my body because I realized that this energy was craving for something more. It was literally the Kundalini asking for experiencing more for experiencing more like this. After that, things started to shift and change, and I heard from Layla Martin, and I heard from -- I started flirting around with a friend that I had talked to many years ago. Just having that conversation, it was like I started to feel alive again, and that started showing in many different areas, and one thing led to another which was finding my picture that allowed me to connect to pussy again, to connect to her power again.

0:10:13

What started as a search for more orgasms, like the one I had just experienced, ended up becoming a search for myself, for my deepest power.

Amanda Testa: Yes. Mm, I love that so much. I love the term that you coined - The Somatic Feminist. So I’d love if you might share a little bit more about what that means for the listeners.

Sasha Ostara: Yeah, so, precisely, in that journey (in the journey of finding my pleasure) I found that there was an internalized sexism that I didn't realize I had. There was a sense of an urge of giving my power away to my partner or to whoever might take it. I realized that the whole experience of many of the people I was surrounded by was similar.

0:11:05

There was a desire to become the perfect concubine, to please the partner, to be sexy and desirable. At the end of the day, it was not what my soul was craving. My soul was craving for something deeper, and I started exploring the wound that was lying underneath that desire. I found that the wound was one of misogyny. How, after all, cultures of oppression have caused the deep harm regarding how people (specifically people with pussies) have embraced our sexuality for a long time, how we kept learning that our sexuality belongs to somebody else, how we are sexual to please somebody else. That has been something that I literally heard from some of my earliest clients. 

0:12:05

They would tell me things like, “I feel guilty about self-pleasuring because I feel like I am cheating on my partner.” There is even a phrase in Mexico that says that women are produce for gentlemen. So I have a client telling me, “This is what they used to say in my family,” and then I heard it somewhere else, and I said, whoa, this is precisely the wound that so many of us have been carrying about our sexuality. It’s a wound of having had our sexuality and our pleasure being taken away from us and used to pleasure others, to get other people to be nourished by this powerful source of energy, and then we are left empty, tired, and feeling like giving up like I was these years ago.

0:13:00

So I discovered that it was a struggle that didn't start with me. It’s a struggle that so many other women have studied about, worked on, and I recognize that it is a path that is deeply connected to both the body (our somatic experience, how we live these experiences in our body) and feminism as a fight for justice and equality and for bringing a sense of understanding of how to find freedom from the systems of oppression through our pleasure, through (like Audre Lorde said) our erotic nature, our erotic force. So it was this recognition of those giants on which shoulders we are standing - their fights, their achievements, and to continue that lineage. I was always craving for a lineage.

0:14:01

When I was very young, I joined the sanctuary. I was craving for a lineage, and now I found that lineage is the lineage of those thinkers and revolutionaries that have been craving to bring equality and justice to, not just women, but to everybody because I believe in the kind of feminism that integrates everybody (that integrates people of color, that integrates people with different gender expressions, and people of different social statuses). So, for me, that is the lineage that I am to follow.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, and I just want to hold a minute for that reverence. Yes. Ah, so good, and so important to recognize. I think, like you mentioned, too, it can feel so big but yet there’s so much we can do, right? And so, when it comes to that, it’s like when I am kind of reclaiming my pleasure and using it as a way to take back freedom, how do I go about that, right? If someone’s listening and is like, “That sounds amazing! I want that! What can I do?”

0:15:15

Sasha Ostara: [Laughs] Yeah! Yeah, that sounds magnificent, but, yeah, then, the implementation of that is what takes the work and understanding.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Sasha Ostara: The good news is that it’s actually very specific. The thing with the feminist approach is that it has very specific steps that we can follow, and then we can follow the somatic and pleasure approach, and it creates magic, but one of the things that I love is that it’s simple. It’s about connecting in sisterhood or siblinghood. It’s about putting other women up and listening to those that came before us and bringing them to the front and center and saying, “Hey.”

0:16:09

Just quoting the people that inspire us that a feminist trait, recognizing the struggle and the system around us. That’s another way to do it, and that’s maybe one of the most important ones because when we recognize that we are not by ourselves, dealing with our struggles, but that it is the system that has kept us in this way for a long time, all of a sudden it’s not a personal problem. It’s not that I feel unlovable, unlikable, undesirable. It’s that it’s actually a system and understanding that this system of oppression is thriving by keeping us disempowered and small, allows us to rebel against it, to name it. Once we name it, we get to actually do something about it. We stop thinking that it’s something wrong with us, and we recognize that it has a name.

0:17:12

I was listening to a teacher that I deeply admire called Kelly Diels, and she was speaking about how, before she knew about the term mansplaining, she actually thought that there must be something wrong with her and with her way of explaining things because people didn't seem to get it, and they think that maybe she wasn’t smart enough. Maybe people were not understanding what she was saying properly so she needed to elaborate better. Then, she read from Rebecca Solnit in her book, Men Explain Things To Me, about the term mansplaining and how men have tried to explain her books to her, and she got it. She said, “Okay, it is not me. It is a system trait. It is called mansplaining, and it’s not about me or my experience. It’s about the system and how it works to keep me feeling that I am not fitting enough, that I am not smart enough.”

0:18:15

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Sasha Ostara: So once you name it, you get to actually do something about it because it’s not about you anymore. That is deeply powerful.

Amanda Testa: Mm, you mention that, too, that sometimes it takes being in community to realize that, right?

Sasha Ostara: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Because so often when there’s the community you're like, “Wait a minute. I thought that was just me!” and you realize, oh, wait, it is cultural. Like you were saying, it’s not a problem that’s just affecting me.

Sasha Ostara: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And then it takes this huge weight off of, like, oh, it makes so much sense now.

Sasha Ostara: Yeah. Yeah, and it allows you to focus on other things instead of focusing on the thing that we thought was our sole experience. We get to understand how other people go through it, but, more than anything, we get to feel validated in our experience which is one of the hardest things for women to feel validated in our experience because, for a long time, we have been gaslit into thinking that whatever we are feeling must be just our hysteria and our weird way of understanding the world because who understands women, you know?

0:19:27

We get to be validated in our experience of the world, and that empowers us deeply.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, yes. That validation piece is just, ah, so huge. I think, too, like you say, there are things that we can do and things that we can focus on that can kind of change our experience and make a difference.

Sasha Ostara: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Right? I’m wondering what are some of the most profound things that are coming to mind for you that have been so supportive or that you love to teach or to invite people into?

0:20:09

Sasha Ostara: For me, if I could just teach one thing to people or be satisfied after I have coached somebody because they loved that one thing it could be self-compassion. For me, that piece has changed everything. When people get to understand that they are worthy of love and compassion, that they are doing the best they can with the things they have at hand, that we are made of different parts, different pieces, and that all of them deserve to be seen and validated with love and compassion, we get to just change drastically the way which we experience the world. That is the one thing I keep teaching again and again and again.

0:21:02

Whenever somebody comes with a sense of rage, sorrow, or whatever piece that they have been denying, being just pleasure or being even just disgust about their own bodies. Whenever they come with whatever is necessary for them to work on, the magic that changes everything is learning to see these parts of themselves with love and compassion, slowing down and loving yourself can really change the way in which we experience the world.

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too, if people may be struggling with self-compassion because it is not an easy skill to embody and learn. So if someone’s starting to realize, okay, I need to be more kind to myself, I need to honor my experience more, what might you offer around that?

Sasha Ostara: That is true for so many people, and with good reason. It’s hard to deal with self-compassion.

0:22:01

It’s hard to slow down because that’s the first thing is slowing down. It’s hard to actually love anything about them, especially the parts that we have been unlovable for a long time. That feels so easy, but it’s the hardest thing that so many people can aim to get to do. There is always a way to achieve that. For me, that has always been very personal, depending on the person I’m dealing with, but pretty much the magic trick is finding that person or that creature that they love the most and picturing that thing that they are saying to themselves, that thing they are punishing themselves for, that thing that they are having a hard time loving about themself, is something that that one person or creature they love is bringing to the table.

0:23:01

For example, their kids. Would you talk to your kid this way you're talking to yourself? What would you tell your child if your child came to you telling you that she’s horrible and that she has the worst body in the world and that she’s unworthy of love and appreciation? That’s the moment in which they tear up and realize that they would never speak to their kids the way they are speaking to themselves -- or to their dog or to their mom or to their best friend. Very slowly, somebody that we are gentle and kind and loving to, and so, constantly the invitation is to play a little bit with that relationship and recognize that that way in which we love that person can be applied to ourselves and that we can show ourselves that same tenderness and compassion that we show others.

0:23:58

Amanda Testa: Mm, such a beautiful way to describe that. Thank you. I also have a daughter. She’s ten, so I always think about that as well, and also, noticing when we have kids (as a side note) often that can bring up a lot in ourselves, especially if they're certain ages where certain things might have happened in your own life. It’s just also to honor and just appreciate that it’s not easy [Laughs]

Sasha Ostara: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Compassion is the best thing you can do. Like you say, we’re all doing our best with the tools that we have, and the more that you can see that, I think you have more empathy for everyone and how they are 'cause they're doing their best. Honestly, I think most people really are doing their best.

Anyways, so I want to switch gears a little bit because I also want to talk a little bit more because you are the creatrix of Vulvalchemy -- and let me know if I mispronounced that, but I love that term, and I think it’s so delicious. If you don't mind sharing a little bit more about that for everyone.

Sasha Ostara: [Laughs] Thank you. Yeah, I love the term.

0:25:00

I was playing around with everything that I wanted to bring to the table, and that term just came magically to me. For me, it’s the mixture of the things that I am the most passionate about. What is definitely the recognition of these systems around which we grow because we are traumatized in community and we heal in community. So understanding how our family systems, cultural systems work is a fundamental part.

Then, understanding how magic happens when we learn to relate to our vulva in a way in which we would relate to our best friend. If we start connecting with her (chatting, exploring her, asking her questions), then we recognize that those same things that could be ideal for her, like compassion, again, like consent, like a constant conversation about her boundaries and desires, those same things are the things that we want as women.

0:26:07

They’re the very same things we crave to receive. So, like, okay, yeah, you want to offer consent to your vulva? Are you being clear about your boundaries when it comes to your connection with other people? Are you clear about your desires? So I realize it’s a microcosmos of the bigger cosmos that we are. So it’s this reflection of who we are.

Then, the magic of the Jade Egg practices incorporated with my own flavor that brings storytelling and going deep into the journey of the goddesses and their own mythology and their own mythological journey around healing. So it’s this blended mixture of all of these pieces together which, at the end of the day, are just about loving our vulva madly so that we love ourselves that same way, so that we learn to listen to our bodies in that same way, and to demand the same level of deep love and compassion from our environment because the thing is, is that when we learn to love our self deeply and shamelessly, we also want that from the people around us, and we bring that to the table as well (to the people that we love). We bring that sense of compassion and consent and tenderness to everybody around us so it becomes, again, a systemic thing in which everybody starts getting something from just loving these parts of ourselves.

Amanda Testa: Mm, so good. If you think about it -- because it makes me realize when we think about people with vulvas, for many of us, that’s been conditioned as something that’s not good, right?

0:28:02

It’s dirty, wrong, whatever, all the things that we hear. By loving that part of ourselves, it’s just life-changing.

Sasha Ostara: Yeah, yeah! Specifically loving them in whatever way it means to love them for us.

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes, yes.

Sasha Ostara: Because that is also very important. I realize that what was very simple for some -- I would ask them to look at their pussies, to do some pussy gazing, to just talk to them -- for some people, that was already too much. It was already too much to ask for, and for those people, I learned that I needed to reach them where they were at, to teach them that love didn’t need to be the same thing that meant to love their pussies to other women. So, for other people with pussies, it was about self-pleasure and dearmoring and taking photos or painting, and for others, love just meant being compassionate enough to understand that their pussy was afraid of being seen, that was afraid of being touched, and to love her in that moment just like that.

0:29:18

There was no need to do anything else. Just like that. Just the way they are right now.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, pondering exactly what is and letting that be enough because it is enough, right?

Sasha Ostara: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Sasha Ostara: Ah, that’s the beauty of it. It is enough. We don't need to show up with an agenda when it comes to loving ourselves, and I think that that is the thing that gets many people confused about what loving ourselves means. Some people think that self love means the big things that we see some people do on Instagram, you know? Posting and being super open about their sexuality. It means that for them, but it means a quiet stillness for others.

0:30:04

It means allowing yourself to cry when you haven't cried for others. It means laughing hysterically for others. It means whatever there is. There is no agenda. There is no right or wrong way to love ourselves. it’s just loving what is.

Amanda Testa: Yes. I love this conversation so much. I feel like I could keep talking to you for hours because I could.

Sasha Ostara: Mm-hmm. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I’d love to know if there’s maybe any question that you wished I would have asked that I didn't ask or anything else you really want to make sure to share?

Sasha Ostara: Ah, thank you. What I feel is very important that we bring into the conversation is how -- a friend of mine was calling it a beautiful way. She said, “We are divergent people. Not just neurodivergent, but divergent people, people from different ethnicities, body shapes, narrow ways of thinking, and how all of us are invited to the party as well.

0:31:09

I feel like sometimes it’s easy to think that vulva love, sexual liberation, sexual expression, pleasure is a privilege. We forget that we are all invited to join into this celebration of our bodies. The differences that we all bring into the table, our cultures, our beautiful body sizes, and our beautiful ethnicities, our beautiful ways of perceiving the world, even though our own journey and things, they are all part of this amazing symphony. This is a celebration for all of us. Our body is a freaking party. Let’s live it. There’s no need to look a certain way in order to be worthy of love and appreciation, and that is something that I really want everybody to remember.

0:32:01

We don't need to wait until we have lost those pounds or we have the partner that we wish we had. We don't need to wait to actually start connecting to our pleasure. It’s there, literally, at the tip of our fingers to just start connecting. It’s literally about connecting -- even that, for some people, it feels sexual, and for others, it will never be sexual or it will just be a sensual experience. It will just be about connecting to eating the freaking pie and enjoying the freaking pie and not worrying about enjoying it too much, and not discussing the idea of the guilty pleasure, and just enjoying our pleasures for what they are - a roadmap to our soul calling. So, for me, that is the thing that I really want everybody to remember.

0:33:01

We are all welcome in the celebration of our bodies. No need to wait to look a certain way. It’s not just for young people, it’s not just for skinny people, it’s not just for a certain ethnicity. We are all invited.

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much for that. I’m just so excited for you to share more about where people can connect with you and work with you and all the amazing offerings that you have. So if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about how everyone can connect with you and learn more about you.

Sasha Ostara: Oh, thank you. So I am on Instagram @sasha_ostara, and I have a web page www.sasha-ostara.com. I have a free program. It’s a free mini program that I created for people during COVID. It’s called Feeling Safe In Your Body. That is a beautiful, delightful amount of tiny practices for everybody to just connect real quick to this sense of safety back in their bodies. It was created in times of distress, and I think that it’s very present and very useful still to this day.

0:34:17

I am working one-on-one with my coaching program, Unbroken, which is, for me, the biggest realization. We are not broken. We are whole. We are perfect just as we are. So Unbroken is my one-on-one coaching program, and I have a group program called Untamed which is all about this reclamation of our sexuality from the clause of patriarchy.

Amanda Testa: Well, I just cannot say enough amazing things about Sasha. She is incredible, and so, I highly urge you to check her out and connect with her. I’m just wondering if there’s anything else that feels important to share as we close today? Thank you so much, again. I really appreciate your time and being here and sharing your wisdom. It’s so beautiful and powerful, yes, thank you, Sasha.

0:35:10

Sasha Ostara: Thank you so much, Amanda. I’m so, so, so honored to be able to share this space with you. Thank you for all the gentleness and kindness and deep, wild, loving wisdom that you always bring with this blanket of love and compassion. Thank you for everything that you do, and, yeah, for me, I feel like it’s just about reminding people that we are worthy of love, that this is all about remembering that the greatest craving that we all, as humans, have is to be seen, validated, and loved. Let’s offer that to ourselves and to those around us.

Amanda Testa: Thank you so very much. Again, I’ll put in the show notes where you can find more about Sasha Ostara and how you can connect with her. So thank you so much, again, for being here, Sasha. Thank you all for listening. Wishing you a beautiful week ahead.

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

0:36:06 

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out.

You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Tracey Tee, creator and steward of Moms On Mushrooms, doesn't consider herself  a guru, influencer, life coach or healer. She is a lifelong student of spirituality, plant medicine and health, and comes to you as a humble teacher + guide who finds immense joy in being of service to moms.

Important links:

• Check out the Moms On Mushrooms Website: www.momsonmushrooms.com

• Follow Moms On Mushrooms on Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/momsonmushroomsofficial

• Sign up for the Moms On Mushrooms Course: https://momsonmushrooms.circle.so/c/microdosing-courses-for-moms/

• Sign up for the Moms On Mushrooms Community: https://momsonmushrooms.circle.so/c/monthly-membership/

• Get in touch with Tracey: https://www.momsonmushrooms.com/contact

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 231: Tracey Tee

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. Maybe you are curious about microdosing. I know this is all the talk, and there’s a lot of great things about it and a lot of misinformation out there. So, today, I am super excited because I am going to be talking with a dear friend and amazing, amazing woman, Tracey Tee. Welcome, Tracey.

Tracey Tee: Thank you! Gosh.

Amanda Testa: Yes, Tracey is a master of many trades, but she is also the creator and steward of Moms On Mushrooms which is a course and community around psychedelics for moms and microdosing. We’re gonna talk all about this and questions that you may have and how, really, it could be a tool for really stepping into your best self and allowing that feminine fire in you to burn its brightest and fullest, and I think, in this day and age, we can all use all the help we can get.

0:01:13

And so, I’m really excited to share more about this. Thank you for being here, Tracey!

Tracey Tee: Ah, it’s always a pleasure, always a pleasure. [Laughs] 

Amanda Testa: Yes! One thing I love about you, Tracey, is that you just -- I love how you say, “I don't want to be the guru, I’m not looking to be this guru about microdosing,” but I know, from your own experience, you spent a lot of years studying and researching and trying different plant medicines and things of that nature. So I’d love it if you would just share a little bit, for everyone listening -- because you might have heard her on the podcast before in a previous iteration of amazing things that she’s done for moms. I would love for you to share a little bit more about this chapter of your life and why you're so passionate about it.

Tracey Tee: Yeah, no, it’s interesting. I guess it has been a couple years. It hasn’t been many years. I am definitely a 2020 awakener.

0:02:01

I was part of the group that just, not only got their butts kicked to the ground in 2020, my business Band of Mothers, we lost everything. We were a live entertainment company and had to cancel all of our shows when the lockdowns happened, and it was incredibly painful, traumatic, dramatic, financially devastating, and in that moment, I found a new part of myself that I didn't know existed and kind of embarked on a spiritual awakening for about a year with the help of some close friends that live in your neighborhood - Sarah Zeren, who became sort of my spiritual coach and dug me out of my depths.

Then, while I was sort of learning about this new aspect of myself while also trying to hold onto a business that just couldn't get back on its feet, while trying to be a mom, while trying to navigate the ridiculousness of COVID, I really felt the call to plant medicine.

0:03:05

I had felt the call for a long time. I had been interested in Ayahuasca. I’ve been interested in it for years, way before it became super trendy, but I never did drugs. I’ve never done any -- I don't actually like using the term drugs anymore, but we can get into that later. I hadn’t done anything before, and also, I had a little kid, and I just didn't think that flying off to the Amazonian jungle was a great idea for me to do a bunch of hallucinogens in the jungle. So I never tried Ayahuasca and then read the book How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan, and it kind of really solidified this inkling inside me that was, I think, mushrooms are calling me.

Then, I actually did -- I went out with a bunch of dear friends to a lake outside Boulder and had my first sort of recreational mushroom experience in the summer of -- I always get the time -- it must have been the summer of 2020, and I had told myself driving there that if I had a sort of deeper spiritual experience with this medicine, that I knew I was onto something, and I, in fact, did.

0:04:12

I had this beautiful evening of lying on the beach with other women, other moms, and I kind of just saw all the symbols ever created. I saw the grid over the earth. I saw the fourth dimension. I felt that wholeness and that connection, that divine beauty and really truly felt the presence of God. I just knew. I just knew the shrooms were for me but still didn't really know what to do with it. I didn't know. You can’t just be high on mushrooms all the time, so, eventually, a microdosing course came across my LinkedIn feed, of all places, and I felt very called to take it, and once I started microdosing, my whole life changed, everything changed, and it’s like everything just kind of came into alignment, and it was what helped carry me and hold me as we navigated the loss of our business and all of the after effects of COVID.

0:05:09

At the end of 2021 when we finally closed down our business, I had done a journey a few months prior, and it was shown to be very clearly that this is my path. As woo as it sounds, when the mushrooms speak, you tend to listen. It’s confusing at times, but some messages come in super clear, and so, when we ended up closing down Band of Mothers, I had kind of had this idea that I might start a course and tell other moms about this because during my whole microdosing experience, I really felt like this is just so different for moms. Same thing. The healing, you know, we can’t go do mushroom ceremonies every month or go off and do a retreat for ten days, nor can we spend two and a half hours doing all the things that we think we need to do to heal. I mean, healing for mothers happens in between soccer practice and doctor’s visits and school homework. It’s different.

0:06:03

It’s just different, and we have a different shared experience that  binds us together not only as women but when you combine that with medicine, it’s very powerful, and so, I just said, “Okay, I’m gonna talk to some moms and see if anyone wants to do this together in community, and the minute we closed down our company I sort of just vomited out -- that’s probably not a great word -- this course. I just wrote for, like, two weeks straight and started Moms On Mushrooms which came to me in meditation - MOM. I thought, well, if it’s not taken, then this was obviously meant for me because this is kind of brilliant. I had to come up with it.

Amanda Testa: Oh, that’s so good.

Tracey Tee: So Moms On Mushrooms was, in fact, not taken, and so, I took that as a sign from the universe that this is my path, and so, I’m here today, but, yeah, I don't want to be a guru. I think the time of gurus is over. What we’re moving into in this age of Aquarius is a time of community, togetherness, but if the time of the guru is over, the time of the lone wolf is over as well, and I don't think people should take this medicine in a vacuum.

0:07:08

And so, I think it’s really important for mothers, especially, to come together around this plant medicine, to heal, and to try to find a place as women and as mothers that feels like we’re also our best selves, and I think microdosing can do that.

Amanda Testa: I’m curious, too, for those out there who might not be familiar with the term microdosing, can you just explain what that is?

Tracey Tee: Yes, yes. So microdosing is taking a very, very, very, very, very small amount of Psilocybin -- well, I use Psilocybin. You can microdose many things. Some people even microdose cannabis. I work with Psilocybin which is the hallucinogenic or psychedelic component of Psilocybe-Cumbetsus which is the magic mushroom. So, in microdosing Psilocybin, you take, like, one-tenth of a gram or one-tenth of what’s the beginning of a larger dose, and the intention is that it’s completely perceptual.

0:08:03

You have no hallucinogenic or psychedelic effects happening within you. However, over time, the repeated use of a very small amount of a psychedelic starts to rewire our neural pathways in a positive manner so that we get the same effects as one typically gets when doing a large-dose journey.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I think that’s important to note because, as you mentioned earlier, especially for moms, you're busy. You're driving kids around, you’ve got a million things on your plate. So that is a concern that I know moms have, right?

Tracey Tee: Oh, 100%, yeah, and should be.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Tracey Tee: No, it is a concern and it should be concerning. To be honest with you, I hear friends tell me, “Oh, I just talked to my girlfriend,” or I have people talk to me, “Oh, I’m just microdosing,” and there is a lot of misinformation out there.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Tracey Tee: In our American society where we’re just so programmed to think more is more and bigger is better, I hear all the time of people throwing back half a gram or these larger doses (which I would never consider a microdose) and saying, “Well, I don't know. I really felt funny all day long,” or, “I was crying a lot,” or, “I didn't feel like I could take care of my kids,” or, even worse, “Nothing happened,” because there was no intention behind it.

0:09:15

And so, it’s very important, to me, to teach about dosage, intention, safety, all those things because, of course, you want to be a mom, you want to be able to drive your kids to school and do all the things without ever being concerned about an altered state.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think it’s so interesting. I just love -- because I think about all of my entheogenic experiences, and many were without any type of intention. It was always just, like, around going to concerts or being on Dead tour and all the things I used to do.

Tracey Tee: Which isn't a bad thing.

Amanda Testa: Because I guess there was some intention, right? [Laughs]

Tracey Tee: Yeah!

Amanda Testa: But, you know, there are so many myths out there or people aren’t maybe quite sure what that means, so I just kind of wanted to clarify.

Tracey Tee: Yes.

Amanda Testa: You know, as well, right, nothing’s a magic pill, but there are also benefits. So I’m curious why you feel like, just in your own experience and all the research that you have done and the groups that you’ve led, what are some of the reasons people typically come to you for support around this or to come to the medicine?

0:10:14

Tracey Tee: Absolutely. The commonalities are profound, frankly, in the theme that I’m seeing with mothers which is A, I -- so the number one most common thing is, “I’m on an antidepressant. It’s not working. It hasn’t been working for years, if not decades,” and/or “It’s making me crazy. I don't even feel like myself anymore, and I know there’s something better. Can microdosing help?” That's the first.

The second is very common which is, “Hormonally, I’m completely out of whack. There is a week to two weeks a month where I become a different person. I don't like my partner. I yell at my kids. My anxiety is through the roof. I’m reactive, and I don't want to live like this, and nothing helps. Can microdosing help?”

0:11:03

The third is, “I am completely overwhelmed with life. My anxiety is through the roof. I am sick and tired of yelling at my kids. I’m sick and tired of just existing and just going through the motions and being so busy I can't even see straight. Can microdosing help?”

Amanda Testa: I love it, and just one thing to note, a caveat, we are not doctors or medical professionals, here. We are not giving medical advice here, but, just so you know, just wanted to give that caveat. But, yeah, I do feel like it’s so true. Moms I know, especially, are struggling just in general, and just the world at large is struggling right now.

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And so, I’m curious, too, the safety around this because that’s another question that I’m sure people will have. Like, how do I know that this is a safe thing to do, and then we’ll get into the next part which I think is so key - the community aspect. Just for people that are  like, “Is that safe? How do I know? Blah-dee-blah,” what can you say to people that might have that concern?

0:11:58

Tracey Tee: Sure, well, first of all, unfortunately, all of the dramatic research and data that was happening got shut down in the ‘50s and ‘60s by the government when LSD and Psilocybin sort of leaked out into what we now know is the Hippie Culture, and people started freeing their minds, and the powers that be didn't like it so they shut it all down. So we’ve had this prohibition for, like, 50 years where a lot of research that could have been profoundly helpful to many, many subsets of people has not happened.

That being said, a few key components about Psilocybin. It is not addictive. It is not an addictive substance like alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, sugar, any number of legal substances that we’re allowed to imbibe on with abandon. There have been no known deaths directly related to the use of Psilocybin. Now, we’ve all heard about the people that jump out of buildings and people that have psychotic breaks, and, yes, that has happened, but what is left out of that equation is, one, people who take massive amounts of Psilocybin which is a psychedelic and hallucinogenic drug and should be treated respectfully and carefully, but then mix it with any number of other substances that make you do any number of irrational and potentially mortal things.

0:13:21

Two, the whole notion of a bad trip and frying your brain, same thing. What we don't talk about is, is that combined with other things, and was that person held in a space that was safe to experience some of the darker aspects that can happen in a large-dose journey? That’s where set and setting and having a guide or a trained practitioner or a clinician come in when you use psychedelics past a certain amount, if you are not mentally capable of handling some of the very dark things that can happen in a journey, you absolutely can have a psychotic break, and if you don't integrate your journey after, your brain can’t handle the massive cosmic multidimensional messages that come through and experiences that you see.

0:14:09

If you don't have anyone to talk to about that and help you navigate that landscape and make sense of it, you're gonna have a hard time, and so, yes, there are side effects -- I don't even want to say side effects. There are reasons for concern, but most of them lie in the misuse of the medicine rather than the medicine itself. 

Amanda Testa: I’m curious, too, what are some of the benefits that you’ve noticed, personally, and then also that you see with the people that you work with?

Tracey Tee: Sure, I think my favorite way to describe why I love Psilocybin and microdosing in particular is two things. One, I like to say it gives me space between my thoughts. So I’m an Aries moon and rising -- or I don't know. I’m Aries. I’m all the Aries. I’m an Enneagram Eight. I’m a Manifesting Generator.

0:14:57

I’m like a walking cliche of bigness and type-A and reactivity, and microdosing, for me, allows the words that come and form very fast in my brain and usually shoot right out of my mouth -- it allows me to take just a second, kind of zoom out, open up my head, see the words forming and say, “That is not a good idea. Don’t say it like that. Take a minute and then push them out,” and that has changed everything for me. It’s allowed me to speak more clearly in terms of, even in business, certainly in my personal relationships, to be more grounded and to be more intentional and thoughtful with my words, and with my daughter. To listen, and to listen, not to react, but to listen to hear. That, in and of itself is a big gift.

The second part is dealing with your shadow, traumas, whatever you want to call it, ego, the things that keep us in this loop of up and down, sad and happy.

0:15:59

It takes those aspects, and it kind of puts it right in front of your face so you can’t not stare at it, and instead of it kind of getting swallowed back down, which is what SSRIs and even, in many ways, traditional talk like psychology tends to do where it doesn't actually get resolved, with microdosing and with Psilocybin, those issues come right up into your face. You look at them, they look at you, and then you just sort of collectively agree to let it go, and it just dissipates. It doesn't go back down. Now, that doesn't mean you’re not gonna have repeated issues and the onion layer isn't gonna keep peeling, but it’s kind of like if you've got a thing that’s bugging you and you deal with it, it really does go away. It doesn't keep coming up, and, for a million reasons, that is such a gift.

Then, you know, in terms of the things that we kind of commonly know about Psilocybin, I would say, focus, creativity, clarity, and I also want to say (because this is feminine fire) a much deeper sense for myself, my own sexuality, my own sensuality, my sacral chakra in general, being able to really look at, feel, and connect with my womb, which I have decades of trauma around.

0:17:19

Depending on the right dose, sex can be really great on mushrooms. I’m just saying. Like, really great. Like, seven orgasms great, but that’s just me.

Amanda Testa: Yes! [Laughs]

Tracey Tee: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I always like to bring different perspectives 'cause there are so many ways and lots of different paths to where you want to be, and it’s good to just educate yourself on what’s out there and find what excites you and what draws you in, right? I think there are just a lot of alternatives available out there, and if the things that you have been doing don’t seem to be working, it’s always a good idea to open up and be like how could I potentially look at a different perspective or try on something new? I think one of the things about psychedelics in general is they're just a different way to open your mind in new ways, I feel like.

0:18:05

Tracey Tee: [Yeah.

Amanda Testa: That is one of the things -- and back in the day before it was hip, when I was in my, you know, 25-years-ago experimenting, just realizing, like, yes, when you were doing certain things with certain people, there were different enlightenments that you would come upon, right? And so, you're like people that haven't had that experience, it’s hard for them to wrap their hands around it, but I do feel like what I, in my experience, have seen is it just opens the paths of possibility. It makes you see things differently. There is definitely a bigger perspective, and that is so key. Of course, yes, as with the patriarchy or any powers that be, when you are able to think for yourself or when you are able to know, “What am I feeling in my body? What’s happening here?” I can realize something wants to be emerged. Oftentimes, when we speak our minds and when we know what’s right, we might question things, right? That doesn't work well for the powers that want to keep us repressed.

Tracey Tee: No, nope. [Laughs]

0:19:00

Amanda Testa: Yeah, so it makes sense, right? These are things we don't often hear about.

Tracey Tee: Yeah, you're so right. I think, like, broadening your mind and thinking about things in a different way and being exposed to a different way of thinking is so powerful and magical, and it goes beyond just seeing a trippy TV show. It is so expansive, and then to be able to share that with other women, particularly, there’s so much power in it. I guess another thing while you were talking it made me realize is, and this, I suppose, has more to do with doing larger-dose journeys, but I wouldn't have gotten there if I didn't have a relationship with the plant medicine through microdosing is that I just don't have a lot of fear anymore. When you realize that you're so connected to the divine, to everyone else, to everything on this planet, and you realize the power that’s inside you in your soul and your heart and in your mind, it’s just kinda hard to get scared of things. When you realize death is just, like Ram Dass said, like taking off a tight shoe, you just can’t get that scared about many things, and you really just want to live in the moment.

0:20:08

It sounds, like, hard to believe that I just don't have a lot of fear, but I really don't. I mean, it really has just left me because I’ve seen what’s on the other side.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Lots of times, too, I think fear is often rooted in the unknown or things we are afraid to see.

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I know you mentioned, oftentimes, there are aspects of ourselves that we don't want to see, the shadow sides we shove down, we find a million ways to numb or to not look at those things, but, truly, when you are able to be with those things and let your body move through what it needs to then, oftentimes, you can integrate those things. Sometimes you might need outside help, and that is perfectly wonderful, right?

Tracey Tee: Totally.

Amanda Testa: That’s what the beauty of -- we’re not meant to do things alone.

Tracey Tee: We have options, yeah!

Amanda Testa: That’s why I wanted to talk about the community aspect because, you know, truly, healing does happen in community. We’re meant to heal in community. We are meant to -- our brains are meant to just handle our community, right?

0:21:03

Not the whole tragedies of the entire world in our face all day every day, and so, it’s no wonder that we have this impending doom and the overwhelm because, often, even if you try to curate the things that you take in, there are just a lot of horrible things happening all the time. And so, when you are constantly exposed to that, then your body’s gonna react to that, right? So knowing that we were designed to just kind of deal with what was going on in our own communities -- we were designed to deal with the traumas in our own communities, and just to bring back that communal help and, like, what is needed in my community, how can I show up to make change here because that’s a big part of activism and showing up is, like, how can I make change? Oftentimes, there are a lot of people out there doing what needs to be done. It’s like finding the people and aligning yourself with what feels right but, you know, just knowing that it’s meant to be done -- we’re meant to be doing things together, not isolated, right? I think recovering from all the isolation of COVID is really hard. I have so many people I talk to all the time and clients who are just like, “Ugh, I just feel like I’m finally coming out of the cocoon.”

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

0:22:03

Amanda Testa: “I feel like I’m finally stepping back into the light and into the world again.” It’s truly about finding that alignment within yourself however you so choose to do it. So let’s talk about that community aspect of it for you and why that’s so important.

Tracey Tee: Yeah, it is. I mean, you really nailed a lot of the things. I mean, you're right. We’re not meant to hold all the pain of all the world of all the things happening at all the same time. There’s a lot of guilt associated when you feel sadness, as you should, which is perfectly normal. Then, it’s compounded by this bizarre frenetic energy -- and I’ll speak to American culture -- and it’s absolutely exacerbated by social media where you are supposed to outwardly express, not only outrage, but sympathy and sadness, and then you have to be outwardly doing something.

0:23:00

It’s too much, and the truth is so many of those people kind of acting outwardly aren’t healed in themselves anyway, and as mothers, I truly believe that just healing ourselves is gonna change the course of history. It’s gonna change everything, and I think a lot of women are finally learning that there’s a different way to raise our kids, that there’s a different way to show up as a mom, and that involves, like you said, coming back together, talking about it, releasing the competitiveness, releasing the judgment, releasing this drive, this sense that we have to be everything to all people at all times, and when we fix ourselves, and when we just focus on shining the light in our little circle, that light grows and grows and grows in a much more sustainable and actionable way than ranting and raving and posting any number of shitty things on social media will ever do.

0:24:04

I don't know how we got duped into believing this to be true, but I do think that as long as we keep that frenetic, divisive energy, and we keep yelling at each other and judging each other for, “You're not like me, and I’m not like you, and, therefore, you're wrong,” nothing’s ever gonna change. So bringing it back, quieting it down, quieting the narrative down and just looking inward and saying, “How can I show up as the best person that I can be today? How can I show love and compassion and kindness and generosity? How can I be my authentic self? How can I work with my highest self to just be of service on this earth?” Just doing that will change so many more things, and you don't learn that you can do that in safety, unless you have a community around you that says, “Look at what you're doing, and, yes, please do that. I need you to do that.” That’s a lot of the basis of Moms On Mushrooms.

0:25:00

That’s why, again, I’m not interested in it being around me. It’s about a community coming together and saying, “Okay, we’re all using this plant medicine for a million different ways, let’s talk about how it’s affecting us.” One mom has postpartum. One mom has depression. One mom is going through a divorce. One mom just lost her business. One mom has a sick kid, but we all have these throughlines, and then one mom doesn't like microdosing, and one mom is completely different, and one mom can’t figure it out. So let’s just talk about it together and figure it out together rather than looking to some outside source, some expert, some paper, some article to tell us what to do. Let’s trust our intuition. Let’s trust our divine feminine power and figure it out together. We’ve been healing each other for centuries, and we’ve lost our way. So I love the idea of just bringing moms back around those two central shared things and figuring it out, and that’s it.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

0:26:00

Tracey Tee: The beautiful thing is I’ve spent a lot of time sort of being mad at technology, and then I thought this is still a gift.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. Yeah!

Tracey Tee: Like, it’s still an amazing thing. I mean, Zoom is amazing. We’re all sick of it, but it’s amazing, and so are our online platforms and so is social media if it’s used in its own -- if it’s used in the light, you know? So let’s utilize these amazing gifts, these technologies, and create our own, new communities that don't look like tribal centers around a hut. Let’s create 2022 communities, and I think we can do that. It’s very easy.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, that is the beautiful thing. I mean, I will say, I do love Zoom, and also, we get sick of it, right? You can only be looking at the computer for so long. However, it is such a gift to be able to connect with so many people all over the world.

Tracey Tee: Right.

Amanda Testa: The fact that I have clients all over the world and we can be together, it’s amazing to me, and I love that part of it, and also, yes, it can be one of those things that you have to use mindfully. Like, how can you use it in a way to feel connected? There are ways to feel connected, I think.

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I’ve experienced it and I teach that all the time and hold groups on Zoom so I believe in Zoom, and also, yes, being in person is great, too, but however you can create that for yourself, it’s so important, right?

0:27:08

I do believe, too, it’s like remembering -- that’s what I love about, I think, a lot of the work that I do as well is it’s all around that sacred remembrance. You already know all of these things. The cultural conditioning and just the way the world is now has kind of made us forget all that we do know. And so, when you can kind of strip that away by whatever means necessary, then you can come back to yourself and start realizing -- trusting your own nudges, trusting the wisdom that you have within you and remembering and having it reflected back to you by your community that, yes, your messages that you're receiving are, in fact, wise. [Laughs]

Tracey Tee: Yeah!

Amanda Testa: You are, in fact, doing a shit ton every day, and, you know --

Tracey Tee: Yeah!

Amanda Testa: So many women I talk to are moms, caregivers, they're just listing all the things they do in a day like, “Oh, I got nothing done today.” I was like, “Just make a list of actually all that you did do today, and you'll be blown away because it’s a ton.” [Laughs]

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Right? Usually it’s a ton.

0:28:00

Tracey Tee: Yeah, and then I talk to moms, and it’s like, “You know, this isn't working, and this isn't working, and I’m angry,” and I say, “You’ve got three kids under five. This was never gonna be sunshine and rainbows. Let’s just admit that you're in a hard space, but it’s not forever,” you know? Back to community and even online, if you find your soul sisters, if you find your core, find your group and you find safety in that, it actually makes you more apt to connect in real time, to go out actually into your own physical community, to walk out onto your street and to connect with people because you feel confident in who you are, and you don't have to prove anything anymore. So it makes you want to go out and find, in real life, those same people that you can connect with, and then that’s how we rebuild that sort of true, in-person community, and I think we can do it with the vortex of Zoom around it.

Amanda Testa: That is so true because I think it is (and I was actually just listening to a podcast earlier today about this) around, you know, it’s like finding that peace within you, not that there is peace outside because that is not true, but when there’s more peace within, then when you show up to the places where you’re doing the good work or being an activist or however you are, you're less burned out so you can actually affect change versus being so caught up in your own world where you feel like you're trapped and you're stuck and you can't do anything, right?

0:29:24

Tracey Tee: Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Because that is a very common thing I hear with a lot of moms is that feeling of being trapped. Like, I have no time, I have no autonomy. My body is not my own. All the things that you feel when there’s people hanging on you all day and needing you for survival.

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] It’s challenging. We’re like, yeah, I can't even go to the bathroom, how the hell can I do anything else? I get that, right? But it’s, like you say, being in that community and realizing, yeah, our culture has pretty much (especially here in the US) set us up to have a really hard time when we have small children. There's not the support that we need. 

Tracey Tee: No, and, you know, they kind of want you to be unhappy. They want you to be miserable because if you are, then you feel like you have to have someone help you out all the time versus changing it on your own.

0:30:05

The other thing is, I mean, let’s be honest, here, we all feel like we have no time, but the truth is that we do. Part of my challenge when we take courses is I know unless you have, I’ll give you, five plus kids, I know you’ve got 20 minutes in the day, and that’s the damn truth. You’ve got 20 minutes to sit down, do a quick meditation, say a prayer, work with this medicine, write something in your journal, and give 20 minutes. I know you do because we all have a phone, and we all spend 20 minutes on our phone, and I don't know anyone that doesn't, or something else. It could be any number of things we do to distract ourselves, and I think part of it is getting real honest with each other and saying we’ve collectively numbed out and scrolled ourselves into oblivion for the last ten plus years, and we have to, like, defiantly take 20 minutes of our lives back, let alone an hour, and I do believe every mom has that, no matter how busy you think you are.

0:31:13

If you're that busy, then let’s look at why you're so busy. Can you reduce the activities? Can you say no to something so that you have time for yourself?

All of that comes in finding sovereignty and autonomy, not caring, not feeling fear. For me, I think the medicine really helps kind of bring that all to the surface.

Amanda Testa: Right. I think one thing, too, that a lot of us (because of our culture and how it’s all, like, very much production-oriented) have this sense of urgency all the time even when there’s not urgency.

Tracey Tee: Yes. Oh, my gosh. Totally!

Amanda Testa: Right?

Tracey Tee: Yes.

Amanda Testa: So, like, yeah, the sink’s full of dishes. That does not mean you have to clean them right this minute.

Tracey Tee: Right? [Laughs] 

Amanda Testa: Yes, there’s always laundry to be done. There’s not true urgency behind it. You aren't going to die if you don't clean the kitchen.

Tracey Tee: And it doesn't make you a bad person.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

0:32:02

Tracey Tee: It’s not a moral failing if you don't do the dishes right then. it’s not a moral failing if you don't answer that text right away, you know?

Amanda Testa: I’m the worst with texts. Sorry. Everyone that knows me knows I’m the worst. [Laughs]

Tracey Tee: It’s so funny, I’m growing to respect it, you know? Again, you're so right. It’s that instantaneous -- we have this instant connection with hundreds of people on a daily life, and I think Glennon Doyle wrote it in her book, like, who are you to think that just because you're thinking of me and have a question or a thought that you want to share right then, that I’m supposed to drop what I’m doing (which you don't know what it is, by the way) and start a conversation with you. [Laughs] It would never happen in real life, you know? We’ve got to let ourselves lean into that.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, and I think, too, like you mentioned, with this creating time for what’s important to you is that we do have to sometimes get creative around that.

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: That requires community, often, too.

Tracey Tee: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I think, oftentimes, for many people that I talk to, caregivers just have a hard time reaching out for help.

0:33:04

There is often help available, it’s just the asking and being open to receiving it that is the biggest challenge. 

Tracey Tee: It’s so true, and there are so many layers to that. It’s the receiving, 'cause we don't think that we’re worthy. We think we’re bad. We think they hate us, but it’s also control, allowing someone to maybe do things a little bit different than how you would prefer for a small amount of time, the insecurity around, “Well, if other people help me then I’m not gonna be viewed --,” let’s talk about mothers, “-- by my children as the primary. They're gonna look to someone else as the authority.” Then, just shadow from just not having any context or maybe any point of reference because of how you were raised of doing things different and just that programming, but it’s so hard. When did we decide that asking for help was a bad thing? It doesn't make any sense if you actually think about it.

Amanda Testa: Right, and not all communities are that way, but I know that it depends, right?

0:34:03

But I feel like that is just such a gift to be able to lean into community and ask for support and let yourself receive it and know that -- you know, sometimes, I think we also have that thought of, like, “Well, if I take something, then it means I’m gonna have to give something,” but, yes, in general, we’re always looking at that web. I love the visual of, like, if we are all on this web, there are some times where people have way more to give, and they're gonna give more and some people are gonna need to take more, and then when that person is full and has more to give, they’ll give more. So it’s not like it has to be, “Oh, well, Tracey took my kids to school today, so that means I need to bake her a cake or do something,” you know what I mean?

Tracey Tee: It’s true! That’s a two-way street, right?

Amanda Testa: Yeah. Right!

Tracey Tee: I’m taking this course, and the leader of the course said women have been divided amongst each other for centuries. Just as women we’ve been divided against each other, and we’ve had to manipulate ourselves to survive, right? We manipulate ourselves to be desirable to a man so that we can have fucking food and a place to sleep.

0:35:01

We manipulate ourselves in the workplace so that we get a promotion. We manipulate ourselves as mothers so that we’re viewed as being what society says is a good mom. We’re constantly shape-shifting and changing in the way we are. In that, we can't just be real with each other. So the pervasive sort of concern is I can't ask you for help and then I can't believe you when you say you're fine giving it, and that goes both ways.

Amanda Testa: Totally.

Tracey Tee: Because it’s possible that there’s conditioning on the other end that when you give help, you actually expect that cake, you know? You expect -- it’s that chalk mark on the wall, and we have to get to this place of (what’s talked about a lot in the psychedelic space) reciprocity, but in the core of that is just compassion and saying, “It’s just no big deal for me to take your kid to school,” full stop. We have to work on not expecting anything in return but also trusting ourselves to say, “Next time I need, I’m gonna ask without agenda or prejudice and just hope that the woman says yes,” you know? It’s a complete unlearning.

0:36:08

Amanda Testa: Totally. So, now, I know you have, often, different courses and things happening in your community. Tell everyone a little bit more about where they can find out more about Momas On Mushrooms and what you have upcoming. 

Tracey Tee: Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, if you go to momsonmushrooms.com, you’ll kind of see everything that’s available, but the really cool thing that just launched in August is I created a community platform that has everything in one place. So think about it kind of like, kind of like Facebook for Moms On Shrooms, and there’s different levels that you can join. So if you're just Psilo-curious, and you're not ready to commit or you want to learn more and you're kind of circling the waters but you want to feel like you're in a place that has good information and you're not just following #psilocybin on Instagram (which is a terrible idea), you can join my monthly membership. It’s $4 a month, and you get access to my Resource Garden which is just sort of a continuously updated database of information from, you know, “Listen to this podcast,” and “Read this book,” or, “Read this scientific paper that came out,” all through the lens of motherhood.

0:37:16

So what I think would relate back to you. You can upgrade it to $7, and then you get access to our Video Garden, and I’m continuously doing interviews with experts in this space, way wiser than me, on specific issues that I see come up in the courses so that we’re really addressing what moms are coming to the table with in terms -- with a psychedelic lens. So that’s a really great way to start if you don't even know where to start.

The second, the main part of Moms On Mushrooms is the digital courses. There are three courses. They're all three months each - nine months. My thought is that it really does take time to get to know this medicine, so Course Dot One is where everyone would start, and it’s a beautiful gathering. You're in a small cohort. We meet every other week for 90 minutes, and then there's information online that you can sort of take as you want.

0:38:06

There are six lessons. They all follow the chakras, actually, which was way more woo than I ever wanted it to be, but we use the chakras as a roadmap so that we focus on one aspect of ourselves for two weeks at a time. I would say 20 minutes or less is needed of weekly activity to kind of really work with the medicine. That's a great way to work with the medicine in community. We’ve got some new courses signing up in September.

Then, if group work isn't your thing, and there’s a bunch of different reasons why people don't want to do group work, and I totally honor that, there’s a self-guided option. There’s a one-on-one option where you work with me, and we go even deeper. We do a weekly ritual together over Zoom or FaceTime where we really set the intention for the week and work with the medicine in more of a ceremonial aspect, and it’s just a much more intimate journey over three months.

Then, the really fun thing you could do is called Circle of Friends which is if you've got a group of soul sisters that all want to take the course together and stay together, you can book a whole course just with your girlfriends.

0:39:07

Amanda Testa: Great, well, I’ll also make sure to put all of this in the show notes, where you can find all this goodness - momsonmushrooms.com. Also, I’m wondering is there any question that you wished I would have asked that I didn't ask or anything that we didn't get to talk about that you want to make sure to share?

Tracey Tee: You know, I think just to drive home the fact that I don't ever want anyone to think that Psilocybin or microdosing or any of these psychedelics that are coming online and getting so much press right now is an ultimate magic pill. All of them take work, and I would just encourage you, if you're feeling called to it, whether it’s Ayahuasca or LSD or DMT or any of these things that you're probably reading about, do your research, go into it with intention, and give yourself time and space to study the medicine and the information around the medicine, and none of it is gonna have a profound effect on you if you don't work along with it, too. I mean, the cliche “do the work” really, really applies here when it comes to medicine.

0:40:02

For my course with microdosing, intention and having a respect for the sacredness and the holiness of this ancient medicine is paramount for it working its magic, and so, this is not something you just get in a brown bottle from Walgreens. It’s much more magical, much stronger, much more potent, but it needs you to show up too.

Amanda Testa: Yes. Love that.

Tracey Tee: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much, Tracey, again, for being here, and, again, for everyone who wants to learn more, you can go to momsonmushrooms.com, and thank you all for listening, and we will look forward to seeing you next week.

Tracey Tee: Thank you.

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation. I invite you to reach out.

0:41:00

You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

*This podcast is provided for educational and informational purposes only and does not constitute providing medical advice or professional services. The information provided should not be used for diagnosing or treating a health problem or disease, and those seeking personal medical advice should consult with a licensed physician. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health provider regarding a medical condition. 

Psychedelics and sacred plant medicines are not for everyone.  As a psychedelic advocate and educator, Tracey Tee is not promoting the mindless use or consumption of any sacred plant medicines."

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Lana Kerr is the founder of Lumisque Skincare. Lumisque is home of CO2Lift Carboxy Gel, the first and only natural and non-invasive method for skin regeneration that uses carbon dioxide to hydrate and re-oxygenate the skin, creating hydration and firmness and lift. Her work has revolutionized the way doctors, ranging from dermatologists to gynecologists, treat their patients and has received recognition from celebrities such as Chrissy Teigen. 

Lana holds degrees in Business and Accounting, she attended the Global College of Natural Medicine, received Certification in Subconscious Restructuring and is the Founder of Your Fat Loss Coach. She is also the mother of two boys and wifer to her husband Terry for 24 years.

Find out more about Co2Lift and Co2LiftV here- use the code FYFF for 15% off!

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 230: Lana Kerr

[Fun, Empowering Music] 

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

If you are like me and, potentially, always looking for ways to feel better in your skin and just feel good and get your feminine fire rockin’ and rollin’, thank you for being here today, and I’m really thrilled because today on the podcast, we are going to be talking all about feeling good in your skin and why taking care of our skin (and not just on our face) is very important.

I am going to be talking with Lana Kerr. She’s the CEO and founder of Lumisque and CO2LIFT about how to feel amazing in your skin and why we need to care for all of our skin, especially our intimate skin, as we age. And so, welcome, sit back, get comfortable, and we will dive right on it.

Thank you so much, Lana, for being here. 

0:01:00

Lana Kerr: Amanda, thank you for having me on your platform. I’m just -- it’s such a beautiful day today, and you're such a beautiful person, [Laughs] and I’m really honored to be here today. Thank you.

Amanda Testa: Well, I just have to say -- and, although, those of you listening, you can’t see, but I’m looking at her beautiful, glowing face sitting across from me, and I’m excited to talk about this because I know I live in Colorado where it’s super dry, but just in general how, you know, when it comes to taking care of ourselves, it’s a holistic process, right? It’s not just like one thing to another. It’s like we can’t always just segment things, and so, I would love to hear from you about kind of what led you into your passion for the work that you do.

Lana Kerr: Awesome. Ah, where do we start? So, I mean, my background is in accounting and finance. So that was many years ago. I went back to school after working for some time, there, into nutrition. I went back to school to study nutrition, opened weight loss clinics over, nearly, 25 years ago now, and we were helping people on that journey to look good or lose weight and feel better about themselves, and, generally, when people start feeling better about themselves, they want to get into other areas of feeling better, so we thought we’d take advantage of our clients who were already happy with us, and so, we opened up a spa.

0:02:09

Then, in looking for solutions to aging and the skin, just trying to find something different. Something that wasn't really heard about, really, here was Carboxy therapy. It was something that was done in Europe, and we were excited to bring in the machine. [Laughs] But we weren’t allowed to bring in the machine. The FDA doesn't allow that, and we were thinking how would we be able to leverage it?

So we just did further research, and we found some scientists in Japan who had actually patented a delivery system to put CO2 gas (which is what Carboxy therapy is) into the skin, not through a needle, but through a gel. So we were excited about that. We formed a company. We met with them, and we formulated CO2LIFT. And so, that’s the first topical Carboxy Gel because, prior to this, the only way to put CO2 gas into the skin was with a needle. So that’s kinda how we got into it. Before we launched, we did a clinical study just to compare the gel delivery system with the needle, and we used a video capillary machine, measured under the skin, and the capillaries are dilating the same way it was touching microcirculation. It was the same action that was taking place in the skin with the gel as it was with the needle, and so, we were very excited about it because, now, it would make it accessible to people at home to do it for themselves as well as there’s no pain involved and no down time, and the results are pretty remarkable and very quick to happen.

So, now, we like to call CO2LIFT the fastest way to better skin.

Amanda Testa: I love that, and, you know, it sounds like, too, because you were in that wellness industry, just seeing that, when there’s a desire to feel good, that pertains to everything. I’m wondering, too, because, specifically, I know now. I am of the age where I do want my skin to look its best, and the older we get, the more dry it gets, the more, you know -- not just in our face but everywhere.

0:04:01

I know you started with facial treatments and kind of extended from there to vaginal rejuvenation treatments, and so, first of all, let’s talk a little bit about what that even is for the listeners out there who might not even know that term. Then, I’d love to know a little bit more about what led you to this avenue.

Lana Kerr: Okay, so vaginal rejuvenation is really restoring the functionality and aesthetic appearance of the vaginal tissue because whether it be through hormonal changes, whether it be getting older or just after having children, that affects how that performs. So, for instance, you may get more dry down there. You may lose sensitivity. So you may not be feeling or enjoying sexual intercourse in the same way that you did earlier on in life. Then, of course, the outside, like all skin, it gets thinner and it gets older, and so, if we want to make it look as firm as the skin on our face that we’re taking care of, then we will do something to rejuvenate that there.

0:05:01

So that’s what it is. It’s not vaginal rejuvenation -- surgery isn't really vaginal rejuvenation because that’s really just -- maybe they use surgery for different things. Some women want it to look differently, and so, they will do surgery for that or they may have urinary incontinence, and they do surgery for that. Vaginal rejuvenation is a term used where you’re typically doing either some type of energy-based device or, now, to do Carboxy, to be able to restore that tissue.

How did I get onto it? Well, like most things that I become passionate about, it’s something that affects me personally, and when I was around 47, I started feeling differently in terms of my enjoyment level during sex, and so, I had gone to my gynecologist and just kind of explained that to her, and she just explained that, as we get older, we lose sensitivity. So she was recommending a device, a laser device, and I made the appointment and everything, but driving home, I was thinking we already have something that’s regenerating tissue very quickly on the face and on the body. Why wouldn't we use this for the vaginal tissue because it’s doing that without damaging the skin?

0:06:11

So we started a clinical study, and it was a double-blind study. So the women didn't know what they were using, whether they were using an ultrasound gel or they were using the Carboxy Gel technology, and what we saw was 100% of the women that used the Carboxy Gel showed significant changes in all five areas of what is called the FSFI Questionnaire which is a standardized questionnaire to measure enjoyment in sex. Then, once we received that information, we were pretty excited. Then we went to biopsies, and when the pathologist looked at the tissue of these women -- we used women in their sixties and seventies who were very dry down there, and after ten treatments the pathologist looked back at that tissue, and those women looked as if they were in their thirties and forties. So we were pretty excited (you can imagine) about bringing this to help women.

0:06:59

Before we even started, I tried it on myself, and I tell you something, Amanda. I mean, I really didn't remember how good sex was until after. In other words, because aging is so gradual, you kind of, “Oh, things are fine,” but when you actually are able to go back, you can compare and you say, “Oh, my goodness.” So I was very happy about that, but I thought this is mind over matter. So I got my mom and my aunt involved, and, you know, they went from sandpaper to butter, and I thought, okay, we have something here. We can help women. We put it together, and we launched and -- thousands of happy client stories. We are just convinced that we have something that can make a woman’s life just -- improve the quality of life for her through different stages in her life.

Amanda Testa: I mean, I think that’s so important because anyone listening knows that, as a sex and relationship coach, I do believe in how important our own physical pleasure is, how important our intimacy is if you have a partner or with yourself. You know, it’s just so important and then oftentimes in our culture, as we age, it is one of those things where you hear, “Oh, it kind of just dies off after menopause,” or, “Oh, you're gonna just dry up,” or, “Oh, you know, you're not gonna enjoy sex anymore or it’s gonna be painful.” All those things are common but they're not normal, right?

0:08:16

And as we age, you're right, all those things happen, and I love the non-surgical approaches because I think, yes, there are things that can be done, and then there’s a time and a place -- that’s the beauty of the modern medical world is that if you need something you can get it, but oftentimes there are things that we can do that are much gentler, right? Like this type of product.

Lana Kerr: Exactly, and surgery really doesn't address the quality of the tissue.

Amanda Testa: Right. Yes.

Lana Kerr: You know what I’m saying? In other words, what we’re actually doing is reconditioning that tissue so that it responds in the same way it did when we were younger.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Lana Kerr: So that’s what we’re doing. So I will say that’s all we’re doing. That’s what we’re doing, and that’s where the magic is.

Amanda Testa: Right, and that’s not involving a needle or uncomfortable laser treatments and things like that which, you know, again, I love this. I think it’s so important because when you are feeling pain or you are extra dry on your vulva or you're not -- as we age, we sometimes do need extra help, and often it’s kind of a fallacy that lubrication is a sign of being turned on, but just in general, you want to have healthy tissue because, like you say, the more elasticity, the more healthy the tissue is, the more enjoyable your experience, and that is so, so important.

0:09:22

Lana Kerr: Yes, and you know you said something that I just want to capture. The thing is that lubrication -- okay, I lost my train of thought. Continue. [Laughs] Sorry.

Amanda Testa: I’m curious though, what are some of the main problems that you see vulva owners facing when they come to you? What are some of the main things that people might be suffering from --

Lana Kerr: Okay, and I remember what I was going to say.

Amanda Testa: -- that they don't necessarily want to speak aloud.

Lana Kerr: [Laughs] So a couple of things. One is you're going to have drier -- it doesn't get as moist as quickly, and we’re not against lubes, and this is not a lube.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Lana Kerr: So this is not a lube replacement. However, what you're going to find is that this is going to make it where this is natural lubrication. So you could still use lube but just like when you were younger, you didn't really need that much of it, it would be the same thing. Basically, your tissue is just more responsive.

0:10:10

So you're gonna find -- so vulva owners will experience dryness, maybe, as I said, lack of sensitivity, maybe they don't respond as well, they don't necessarily reach orgasm as quickly as they did before. Also, another thing is even stress and urinary incontinence. Just, I mean, something where when they cough, they will pee themselves or they may not be able to run or they may not be able to jump on a trampoline. Those are some of the things that they may experience, and then now, too, so many women are removing the hair down there, and so, they want that skin to look plump and juicy. [Laughs] So this is something that’s gonna help them to achieve that.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I’m curious why -- obviously, when we age, there’s more of a need, but I know that this can actually be beneficial to vulva owners no matter the age. So I’m wondering if you’d share a little bit more about that.

0:11:00

Lana Kerr: Yes because, as I said, hormone changes affect women of all ages. So it can happen when you have a child. When you have a child that -- first of all, the trauma in vaginal birth, to help to bring it back, you can apply the CO2LIFT V down there to reduce the swelling and to bring back blood flow so that you can enjoy intimacy. So that’s one. So after childbirth.

When you're breastfeeding -- women get drier when they're breastfeeding. So this is going to help there. When you're taking certain types of medication -- some women may be on antidepressants or maybe on allergy medicines. Just like how allergy medicines dry out your nasal passage, it’s drying out that passage down there.

So those are some of the changes. Then, of course, some women who have had to have chemo, so that tissue down there may get damaged, and then they're gonna have a harder time enjoying or even having sex. So that’s another area, and then just, as we mentioned, just getting into perimenopausal, menopausal, again, our estrogen level changes. We get drier, and this is going to help to revive that area and recondition the skin and make us return to more youthful functionality.

0:12:10

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I love how you said, too, around bringing back the plumpness and the juiciness in the tissue no matter what you might be experiencing when you have the hormonal shifts. Also, just to improve -- I think at one point, too, you just mentioned just the look and feel of it so that you can enjoy your own vulva. I just want to name that for a minute because what I think is important -- because I personally believe in our culture, especially here in the US, as a vulva owner, we don't get a lot of love and praise for that part of your body.

Lana Kerr: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And so, finding ways to reconnect with yourself and your body is so key because just like any part of you, it’s important, and I think the more love and care we offer ourselves, the better. And so, even if it’s just because you want to -- like you say, just for fun that you want to be loving towards yourself or whether you're healing, that you need to work with the application in a way that helps to reduce scar tissue and bring back your sensation and healing. I think that’s powerful.

0:13:14

Lana Kerr: Yes, you know, it’s interesting because one of the sexologists here in Florida who had called us because a couple of her patients that she had been working with for nearly a year started really enjoying sex. One of them was a breast cancer survivor. The other one wasn't, but she called us because she was saying this really is helping her patients, but she thinks, obviously, the physiology’s changing. We know this because we’ve done the studies. We can see it, but there also is a psychological benefit of taking care of that area. Just as you mentioned, by just showing yourself love in that area, you feel more control. You approach intimacy expecting it to be more pleasurable so that you’re coming to it with a different mindset, and for women so much of it is in our minds. So by doing this and showing this love to ourselves, it’s definitely going to help to improve our confidence, improve our enjoyment in our intimacy and then, therefore, in our relationship with our partners and then with ourselves.

0:14:18

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think that, what you just said there, about expecting pleasure is so important because if it is something where you’ve had pain in the past, that can just make you automatically, as soon as you even think of intimacy, be like, “Argh,” just tightening up, and you expect it to be painful, and just having that experience of being able to shift that mindset and to know that, “Oh, wait a minute. This can be a different experience for me,” is so important.

Lana Kerr: Yes, yes. Again, it’s all about, to me, taking control of you and the way we appear to ourselves [Laughs] and the way we feel about ourselves has a lot to do with how we’re going to impact other people. Especially in this area of vaginal health I think, as a woman, that makes us feel powerful to know that we control that and we are taking care of it.

0:15:13

You know something, too, Amanda, it’s not just about sexual intimacy --

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Lana Kerr: -- because sometimes, as we get older, women just have burning vaginas.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Lana Kerr: Sometimes our pH changes, and so, we’re starting to get more infections. The CO2LIFT V basically brings our pH back to ideal. It’s a 4.5 pH so it’s going to help to prevent infections. It’s going to help with that burning that some women may experience for various different reasons. So it’s about just taking care of ourselves, and as we started, even in our introduction with our foot -- every part of us affects us.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Lana Kerr: But that area between our legs is a big part of what makes us feel like a woman, don't you think? 

Amanda Testa: Oh, my gosh. I so agree with that because I feel like our sexual health usually is indicative of our overall health oftentimes, right?

0:16:02

And so, if something’s not feeling good, there are things that can be done about it, but it does affect every single part of you, right? Because if it’s uncomfortable, if you're burning, then that probably affects how you sit, the clothes you wear, the underwear you wear, how you go about your life, the things you do, the things you don't do, right? And so, when you can find more ease, more comfort, that changes everything.

Lana Kerr: Yes. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Right?

Lana Kerr: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm, and I think, too -- this is just a random thing, but I do feel like it’s so important because I know you mentioned confidence, and I don't think this is random at all. I think it’s very important because our confidence is so key. Feeling good about ourselves affects how we show up and the mindset, like you say, is so important whether it is how we look on our body, on our face, on our vulva, and because there is so much -- we are so harsh on ourselves, I think, oftentimes, right?

Lana Kerr: Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: We’re very hard on ourselves as women and wanting to maybe appear to look a certain way or, too, in our cultural conditioning of, you know, after a certain age then we’re not as desirable which I disagree with. I’m curious your thoughts on that.

0:17:05

Lana Kerr: No, I agree. First of all, I think what makes anyone sexy is confidence and, certainly, as we get older (just speaking for myself) I definitely have more confidence now than I did when I was in my forties and when I was in my thirties because I think experience gives us that. So, fortunately, now, we have the technology that allows our bodies to stay current with us.

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Lana Kerr: In other words, as we mature and get more wisdom and feel more confident in ourselves, we can still look youthful and enjoy the benefits of that confidence.

You know, there’s that saying that says youth is wasted on the young. I think, now, that doesn't even really apply so much in the sense that we have the technology that keeps us youthful if we just avail ourselves to it, you know?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Lana Kerr: Certainly when you get older, in terms of in your relationships, you're more secure so, now, let’s bring the rest of us up to that level to enjoy that too.

0:18:04

Amanda Testa: I love how you say “that allows our bodies to stay current with us,” ‘cause I feel like no matter what age our numbers say, the way we feel probably does not correspond to that. That I know.

Lana Kerr: Yes.

Amanda Testa: This is true for all the different-aged people I work with. It’s like I look in the mirror, and I’m like, wait a minute. I feel like I’m, like, 29, but I definitely am not looking like that anymore.

Lana Kerr: [Laughs] Yes.

Amanda Testa: You know, that does affect how you show up. Did you ever watch that show on Netflix or something? I think it was called Grace and Frankie, but it was about these older women who get divorced.

Lana Kerr: Yes!

Amanda Testa: But just their stories are so funny, and I remember one of them was going to have sex for the first time with someone new, and she was like - immediately pitch black dark and hid under the covers. [Laughs]

Lana Kerr: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: And I feel like, you know, sadly, a lot of people live their life that way, and it doesn't have to be, right? There are numerous things, of course, behind that, but just feeling good in your skin can help you turn the lights on and feel good in your skin and be excited to share your body with your own self or with someone else, right?

0:19:00

Lana Kerr: Yeah. Yes. Yes, definitely. Definitely, and as we continue to talk about technology, though, and things that are available, I’m really happy that you brought me on because I wish that this type of information was available to me when I was in my thirties. 

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Lana Kerr: When we started, you spoke about how you want to start taking care of yourself in a better way or something to that effect, and one of the things I talk about is when you look into cultures that actually are ageless, they start very young. When you look at a lot of the Asian cultures, they actually start skin care from when they're in their teens. Generally, here in The United States (myself included) we didn't start until I was in my thirties, but it makes a difference. You can actually free it if you start younger so you don't have to wait to have a problem to start addressing it. Start to keep yourself looking that way, and then you kind of call it a freeze and it just staves off the effects of aging. I think that’s so important. Then, the same principle goes, not only for the skin on our face, but the skin down there.

Some people think, “Well, I don't have a problem.” So you're gonna wait until you have a problem? Because I’m here to tell you that that problem faces 90% of women as we get older.

0:20:09

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Lana Kerr: We have so many groups that we do and just talking to gynecologists, as we get older our skin is going to get thinner, and when our skin gets thinner, then we’re gonna have all these other effects that come with it. Why not prevent that by just taking some self-care, not only to here but to downstairs?

Amanda Testa: Right, I love that. It’s like use it and you won't lose it.

Lana Kerr: Exactly, right? [Laughs] Exactly, exactly, and then, too, you talk about that -- use it and don't lose it. So some women, they're out of a relationship, they're divorced, and they want to start a new one. So they may have a period of time when they didn't use that organ, right?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Lana Kerr: And so, similar to if you were to go to the gym and then you stop, eventually, you start losing that muscle. The same thing had happened so that blood flow is not there, so guess what? This type of procedure -- it’s not even a procedure -- type of treatment keeps the blood flow going so even when you're not using it, you're using it. [Laughs]

0:21:06

Amanda Testa: And that blood flow is so key.

Lana Kerr: Yes.

Amanda Testa: I think that blood flow is so key especially for arousal. You know, I always say this a lot of times to my clients: often, if there’s a lack of desire or -- there can be so many factors, but if you think about if you're humming along at, like, a 0, you're gonna have to put in a lot of effort to get up to a 60, 70, 80 miles per hour.

Lana Kerr: Yes, yes.

Amanda Testa: And if you are kinda humming along at a 30 or 40, it’s much easier to get there.

Lana Kerr: Yes. Yes!

Amanda Testa: So you want to remember to take care of yourself and do the things that keep you humming, do the things that keep your body vibrant and keep you vibrant, the things that turn you on, and it doesn't even have to just be around sex in general -- the things that holistically light you up make a difference. 

Lana Kerr: Yes. Amen! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Lana Kerr: Amen.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, so I’m wondering, too -- I know you’ve done a lot of clinical studies, and I’d love maybe if there are a couple of stories that stand out about clients that you've worked with or that you've heard their stories and it just really lights you up and reminds you why you created this product? [Laughs]

0:22:02

Lana Kerr: Oh, yeah. Okay, where do I start? First of all, yes, we’ve done the clinical studies, as you mentioned. In fact, we just did another one recently. The results are coming out, but it was mostly for the CO2LIFT on the face, and I was with the one that your doctor would give to you, but that was showing an increase in elasticity. For about 26%, an increase in elasticity - that’s a big number. So we talk about skin that’s on the face but doing the same thing down there, and we have the stories to prove it. So let me think of a couple.

One, a younger girl, she was 28 years old, I think you can YouTube it. She’s on talking about it. She’s 28 years old. She’s young, and she says she has always had painful sex, right? She actually has to just bear it. She’s like, “Oh, my god. This is horrible,” and so, she started using the CO2LIFT V, and she was talking about how, within the first three treatments, her husband noticed a difference in the looks of it. She’s like, “Ooh, this is really pretty.” [Laughs]

0:23:01

But, then, in terms of the function of her pain -- so she did ten treatments, and then she was saying, “There’s no pain in sex.” So that’s the one that if you’re a listener, just YouTube some of the stories. That particular one is there.

There’s another one that I can think of. She actually works with us - Rebecca. This is such a great story. She’s such a phenomenal woman. She was in her forties when she discovered that she had breast cancer, and it was stage three or stage four breast cancer but she just got married. So she just had a baby. So she was in her forties, she just had a baby, she just got married. Can you imagine having to go through all of that? So after the surgery, one of the things is she was just very dry, and she was thinking -- in her new marriage, to have to deal with this. So she went to her doctor, and her doctor recommended the CO2LIFT V and just how it changed her life. In fact, her vagina is doing things that it never did before. So that’s just a couple stories. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] I’m wondering, too, when it comes to things like vulvodynia, have you done studies around that?