JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Kylene Terhune is the CEO & Founder of the Phoenix Transformation Project where she works as a Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Practitioner supporting women who have experienced sexual betrayal trauma.

She helps her clients with a unique, whole body approach that involves the physical, emotional, mental and spiritual aspect of the individual. This work includes functional lab work, nutrition, lifestyle, emotional work, nervous system support and more to assist women in feeling more complete, grounded, safe, independent and confident in their health and in their bodies.

As a successful functional health coach for 6 years Kylene has received additional education in trauma and it’s impact on the body through the Trauma Healing Accelerated courses: Biology of trauma: energy, overwhelm and freeze, Biology of trauma: brain health and Biology of Trauma : Immune system. She is also a member of the Biology of Trauma Health practitioners directory.

She has additional experience with somatic work and nervous system support, emotional work and habit change, and has completed a 12 month abuse-informed provider certification training from the Give Her Wings Academy.
She also has certifications in NLP, NLP life coaching, QTT and hypnosis.

If you are interested in working together please email KyleneT@MyBalancedBiome.life.

You can follow Kylene On TikTok @kyleneterhune  or on Instagram @kyleneterhune or via her Facebook page Recover U.

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EPISODE 242: with Kylene Terhune


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I’m your host, Amanda Testa, and I’m very excited today because I am going to be talking with a dear friend and amazing coach, Kylene Terhune, and she actually has such a breadth of wisdom and knowledge, and I really love how she is just so authentic in living her truth and sharing from a place to wholeness and just realness. So, thank you, first of all, for all you are and all you do, as well as on a professional level, she’s the CEO and founder of the Phoenix Transformation Project where she works as both a functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner and NLP life coach supporting women who’ve experienced sexual betrayal trauma. So, thank you, first of all, so much for being here today.

1:00

Kylene Terhune: Thank you for having me, Amanda! Just so everybody knows, you were a part of my recovery process, too. So, thank you for everything that you did for me through that process. I really appreciate you so much.

Amanda Testa: You’re very welcome. Well, obviously, the topic we’ll be talking today around is around sexual betrayal trauma, and so, I just want to invite you too, as we dive into this, to maybe just take a breath or two, and if there’s anything that you need to feel a little more comfortable as we talk about this because it actually is a very common thing. And I don't think I’ve talked about this on the podcast in a while, and I just really want to make sure to share resources of ways to support yourself if you find yourself in this situation.

Kylene, I’d love if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit of your story and kind of what led you to be so passionate about this work.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, absolutely. So, as is often the case, I ended up here because of personal experiences in my life. So, in January of 2021, I was living my best life, or so I thought.

2:03

I had a thriving coaching practice. I was doing really well with my business partner, and we had just done this huge launch. I mean, this was like the top, at this point, of my career, and it was going well. Right after that launch, (literally, it was about a week after or so) I was sitting down to do a budget with my husband, and I woke up that morning, and I was so excited about doing this budget. I was like, “This is gonna be good for us,” right? We’re gonna make it fun, we’re gonna hang out on a Saturday morning, and he had printed out all of these charges so that I didn't have to go into the accounts, right? Like, that’s so nice. [Laughs] And I thought, “Oh, this is really cool.”

We started canceling all these recurring charges and, really, long story short, this led to me discovering some things when I went into his phone and tried to find where an app charge was coming from. It was, like, a fitness app, and I was trying to figure out how to cancel it, I saw all these deleted apps that I was like, “Whoa, what are those?” They just did not look appropriate.

3:00

And so, he immediately denied that he had anything to do with them or didn't know what they were, didn't know how they got on his phone. You know, makes no sense, right? How does something end up on your phone that you're not aware of, right?

But, at the time -- and you have to understand, we had been together almost ten years, we had been married almost eight, and, up to this point, I had absolutely no reason not to trust anything that he said to me. There was, in my mind, with my understanding at the time, no red flags. I would never think that this person would lie to me, so, of course, I give him the benefit of the doubt because after that long together, what are you gonna do, right?

So, this was the very tip of the iceberg of kind of discovering over the next few days and weeks that he began to confess after all of this started to come out. I pushed a little bit. I asked a lot of questions. I was like, “This doesn't make sense. Why were you downloading these?” Because that eventually came out that, no, it was a choice that he was making. Oh, they were being advertised a certain way. “Well, wait, you're telling me they were advertised as dating apps? Why are you downloading dating apps? Okay, well, you downloaded them but you didn't message people? Wait, that’s not true.”

4:06

So, you know, that was like the beginning of the unraveling, or what I call -- I relate it to The Truman Show where the light fell out of the sky and you begin to realize that that’s not the reality that you were living in. Actually, I watched that movie as I was going through this process, and I was so emotional watching it because I think it’s such a brilliant description or depiction of how you feel during betrayal trauma and how the pieces start to come together. It’s really an incredible demonstration of that.

And so, long story short, he began to confess what had been going on which I was absolutely shocked and devastated to find out was over ten years of a cybersex addiction that had progressively gotten worse over time. And so, then, I was, all of a sudden, going from this relationship that I thought was totally healthy and we were on the same page into this, oh, my gosh, my husband is an addict. And he’s freaking out, he’s confessing, he’s crying, and he’s overwhelmed, and so, I have to go into caretaker mode immediately all while I’m trying to figure out what the heck just happened to my marriage.

5:11

And so, that was a huge process of learning about addiction, understanding that what I was experiencing was a tremendous trauma and a shock to me, and then, thankfully, my husband, before I found out, wanted to recover and had tried multiple different ways to do so on his own. And once it came out into the light, we were able to get him the support and the healing resources that he needed, and he jumped into those immediately. And so, I’m really thankful that he had that perspective and mindset because he really did all the things to recover.

Now, we are coming up on two years in recovery, and he’s done really, really well, and it was a very (I will not understate it) painful process for both of us, but we’re doing really well now, and now I work with women, and he runs support groups for men, and, yeah, so, that’s a very condensed version but that’s kind of how it all came out and what happened in a few short minutes.

6:11

Amanda Testa: Yeah, well, first of all, I appreciate you sharing that, and I know that’s one of the things that can be really hard is to be vulnerable about the truths that -- I think sex addiction and porn use and all of those things can kind of have such a taboo around them that people won't talk about it, right? And so, they aren't necessarily aware of what may be causing it, what they can do about it. And so, I just really appreciate you for being so brave and courageous and sharing your story and creating this work because it’s important.

Kylene Terhune: Thank you, and, I mean, that is part of the healing journey, right? Because a few days into it or even quite a while into it, it was still hard for me to share my story. When I initially went to support groups and then you go around the room and it came to the all eyes on me, my whole body would flush, and I would get so nervous, and that’s the thing. Women feel this shame about this process that they find themselves in even though we didn't have anything to do with those decisions, right?

7:09

But it’s so embarrassing to say, “Oh, my husband’s a sex addict.” Like, wait, what? I didn't even know much about this world until I discovered that it betrayed me.

So, part of the healing process is dealing with all of those beliefs and those insecurities and those fears and everything that was so triggering through this process and talking more and more about it because, with addiction and betrayal, I think healing comes when you step into the light. And so, when you step into the light, the more you talk about it, the freer you become, and I realized a couple weeks ago when someone asked me how I got into this work, and I immediately said, “Well, it’s my personal story,” and I had no reaction whatsoever, I was like, “Oh, my gosh! That’s so amazing!”

Amanda Testa: That’s amazing! Yeah! It’s so true, and like you're saying it’s like, you know, shame, too, thrives in the shadows, in the darkness, and bringing it to the light and talking about it is so healing, and it can give you, then, the opportunity to look at it and see, “Okay, what’s happening, and what do I do?”

8:06

And so, I’m curious for you, too, when you are supporting people that have had this experience, what are some of the steps they can take? What would you say are some of the most important things?

Kylene Terhune: From the side of the addict or the side of the betrayed partner or both?

Amanda Testa: I would love if you would be okay to share a little of both. That would be amazing.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, well, what I found really fascinating through this process is discovering that the healing path for both people is very similar, and I find that really interesting because when it all came out (and I think this is a really common response for a lot of us) is sort of, like, “Screw you. This is your issue. You figure it out.” Now, to be fair, that’s true. [Laughs] Right? It is their responsibility. They have to take responsibility and they have to do the work. However, because this is a trauma for you, it does become really important, at a certain point, that you pursue healing because if one of you or the other (and it really, at this point, doesn't matter which one) is not pursuing healing and one is, then at some point in the relationship, there’s gonna become a real issue because you're not in the same place, and you're not gonna be able to communicate well, and you're not even gonna be able to move towards the same goals because trust isn't being built.

9:16

So, when I was learning about the healing processes, I was like, oh, wow, there’s a ton of overlap, and so, really, what that means for the addict is there’s a specific CSAT therapy (that’s Certified Sex Addiction Therapy) that we recommend, and the point of that is really to help the addict understand the emotional wounds, the triggers, the trauma, and the beliefs about themselves that they created out of these experiences that, then, led them to self-medicate by this compulsive behavior. And when they can do that and when they can actually address the root, the wounds, the emotions, the triggers, the trauma, the behaviors, then, can change as opposed to sometimes recovery models are more behavior-focused and they end up in this sobriety white-knuckling circle that is really struggling for eternity. They feel like they can't -- it’s the gerbil wheel, right? Or the hamster wheel.

10:13

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes, the hamster wheel.

Kylene Terhune: It’s really hard to get off of that because the actual trigger and the pain is not addressed. And so, I always recommend when people are looking for a CSAT that they also find one that does an external trauma modality outside of talking, whether that’s EMDR or brain-spotting, or some sort of trauma work because when you can work on the subconscious mind and the beliefs and the emotions that are -- that’s where they're stored, and so, if you're spending all this time talking in the conscious, and you're not crossing that barrier into the subconscious, you are really missing an opportunity to do the deeper work that helps you to feel the freedom and the release from that wound, from those experiences.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Kylene Terhune: So…

Amanda Testa: That’s huge.

Kylene Terhune: It’s huge, huge, huge, and I try to talk about that a lot because I think that it’s missed a lot. People willingly go into talk therapy or things like that to try to work on their patterns and their habits, but when it’s only pattern- or habit- focused, they feel stuck so often because of this underlying issue.

11:12

Amanda Testa: Right, I think that’s important to note, too, because people do -- I mean, I think there are so many benefits to talk therapy. It’s a great modality.

Kylene Terhune: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: But also, there is so much under the surface that subconscious patterning needs to be addressed and also working with what’s in the body because, like you say, until you get to the root, things are gonna just kind of keep showing up in different ways. You're never gonna be able to fully integrate and move forward.

Kylene Terhune: Right, well, and you do want to be careful. You just mentioned something really important: showing up in different ways. So, does it actually turn into a co-addiction of some sort where they just shift the behavior but they're still self-medicating in a different way? That can also be a pattern or they can be stuck in the same pattern of trying to be sober but never actually getting into full recovery. So, it could be either one of those things, but the real issue is that they continue to struggle as opposed to becoming released from it.

12:00

So, the process, essentially, if you really want to simplify it, is it’s CSAT therapy with a trauma focus, processing those emotional wounds plus group support, and the reason that that is really important is because the opposite of addiction is community, and so, when you have the combination of the two -- and I will add a third piece, and that is a willing part. So, if somebody is not fully invested in the process, then it won't work. It doesn't matter how many therapy sessions you go to, they have to want it. Then, the piece we just talked about, they have to be willing to feel pain in order to reach the other side, and you have to understand, their whole habit pattern, their whole process is numbing that pain. They're not used to feeling anxiety. They're not used to feeling depression. They're not used to feeling a lot of these things because their addiction actually has preempted those emotions to some extent because they're self-medicating, and they're getting these dopamine hits, and they're getting this chemical cascade in their brain. The rough thing about process addictions as opposed to substance addictions is that your body is actually creating the drug.

13:05

So, that is really tough. So, having the trauma addressed, a heart that is willing, and having that community really is, ultimately, the process. When you have all of those things, I like to say recovery is almost inevitable when you have that, but if one piece of that is missing, then relapse is often inevitable. And so, really being willing to go through the difficulty and commit to the process and having the heart that’s fully invested and willing to respect boundaries and do all these things, you're gonna get into recovery when you do that.

Amanda Testa: I love, too, how you said a willing part because I know that’s a big piece is the willingness, right? Because if you -- for you, and even an example like what helps someone build towards forgiveness and reuniting versus ending things, right? I think, too, I personally believe relationships have cycles and seasons and they all serve purposes, but if there is the commitment to want to work things out, then that willingness is so key on both parts, like you said.

14:04

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, I mean, I see a lot, like I said, that dichotomy of -- or what, what’s the word I’m looking for -- they're going against each other, where one person is trying to recover, and the other person is not (for whatever reason, they're staying stuck, right?). And sometimes that happens on the betrayed spouse's side where they just don't, for whatever reason, know that it’s available, which that’s okay, but once you know it’s available, you’ve got to pursue the healing work. You have to because whether or not you choose to stay with your current spouse or you separate, I care more about your mental, emotional, and physical health than I do about your marriage, but it doesn't matter if your marriage survives, you still have to do the recovery work because if you don't, you take it into the rest of your life, and that, then, becomes the filter that you view every experience from. You’re gonna view men differently. You're gonna view relationships differently. You're gonna hold onto self-worth issues and body image issues and all these triggers and traumas that were created because of this experience if you're not committed to your healing.

15:06

Now, if you choose to stay with your partner, that is non-negotiable. You’ve got to do the healing work [Laughs] because it’s just not gonna work, right? The trust is destroyed when this happens. It’s absolutely destroyed. It’s shattered. You don't know who this person is. You have no idea who you're in a relationship with, that you were the most vulnerable with. You’ve shared your emotions. You’ve shared your body. You’ve shared your life, right? Here is this person, and that’s why betrayal is such a different trauma is because it comes from the person that you are sharing life with, that you trust the absolute most to protect you and to love you and to do life with you, and coming from that person, it creates a different trauma in your body that’s just really, really tough.

So, back to what it takes to heal (which was your original question), it’s the same type of process. So, you go into trauma work, as the betrayed partner, to deal with what?

16:01

To deal with the emotions and the wounds and the trauma that was created through this experience, and what happens when we have trauma experiences is we create beliefs, we create limiting beliefs or decisions about who we are. Now, some really common ones that come out of this one is that it’s somehow my fault or that I’m not good enough or I’m not pretty enough or if I had just done this more or XYZ, fill in the blank of your biggest insecurity. And you're gonna have emotional triggers, visual triggers, audio triggers, whatever, as you're going through life experiencing this if you're not addressing it, and that won't go away unless it’s intentionally worked on. Unfortunately, this isn't something that time heals all wounds; this is something that takes more intention.

So, for the betrayed spouse, it’s a very similar -- oh, did you…

Amanda Testa: I was just gonna say I appreciate you naming that. We, so often, want this immediate fix, but it doesn't happen that way, right? Healing doesn't happen that way, yeah.

Kylene Terhune: I wish! [Laughs]

17:03

Amanda Testa: Wouldn't it be amazing? We’re like that’s why people want a pill but there is no pill!

Kylene Terhune: You know, I wish I could have supplemented my way out of this. I mean, that’s a thing, right? I was doing all the things. As a functional medicine practitioner, I knew. I had maybe a little too much awareness of what the level of stress I was under would do to my body, and I was super worried about it. [Laughs] I don't think that helped.

But no, I mean, I was doing all those things. I was trying to help my physical health. I was trying to set boundaries. I was trying, but I didn't really understand the world I was living in, and I needed that help. So, working with someone that’s very familiar with betrayal trauma specifically and, again, I always encourage that they have an external trauma modality because when we create these beliefs of I’m not enough, I’m not worthy, my body is not good enough, or I don't love myself, or I’m unlovable or unwantable or whatever it is for you, if we’re just gonna talk about it, unfortunately, that can have this effect of deepening that neurological pathway where you actually believe it more and it becomes more painful, the exact opposite of what you're trying to do.

18:05

But if you have an external trauma modality where you can work on the subconscious level and you can actually process the pain and file it in a healthy way, then you can begin to, then, move forward and release it and view it in an appropriate way.

So, I was talking to someone earlier about triggers, for example, and here’s a really good example of what healing looks like. Triggers, for me, when you go through the healing process, they become fewer and further between, first of all, but then there’s a really big difference in how they affect your body when you are in recovery. So, when you're not in recovery, it really impacts your entire body, and it activates your nervous system. You're gonna feel flush, you're gonna get that fight or flight, right? Everybody listening probably understands what a trigger feels like. So, you have that reaction. In recovery, when that part of you is healed or mostly healed or really worked on significantly, now my quote-unquote “triggers” are more like a thought will pop up into my head. It’s more like a thought process.

19:09

I’ll kind of think about it, but there’s no physiological response, and I think that’s because of so much of the healing work that I’ve done. And I think when you have triggers that still pop up, that’s just a reflection of something that’s unhealed at this point that still needs to be addressed and worked on.

So, doing that trauma work on that level, releasing the limiting beliefs and processing the emotions, identifying and understanding the triggers and what’s underneath those as they come up is really important. Then, for the women, too, it’s the same process. You get involved in support groups so that you can feel seen and heard and validated in your story and so that you can speak your voice and share your story over and over and over again so that it gets out of your body and you feel less and less shame about it, and that’s really hard. It’s really hard, and I do always want to caution people with support groups.

20:00

You don't want to stay in a support group that’s just, like, man-bashing because that’s a tendency, too, right? Like, let’s just sit here and hamster wheel our stories and talk about how bad they are and how much pain. It’s important to talk about, and it’s important to share with people that understand because a lot of times what is very unfortunate is family members or friends may not fully understand what you're going through and may not offer safe support for you or anything that feels really helpful, and some may not understand at all but be really empathetic. So, it’s kind of finding those people, but when you're in a support group of women that have similar shared experience, it’s just a different world, and it’s very validating. So, it’s a very similar process. And then as you go through, you become more and more self-aware, and, again, that crosses between the addict and the betrayed. Become more and more self-aware of what your emotions are and also what’s underneath them and also communicating them and getting them out so you can process them and work on that.

That’s a real short summary of, kind of, what it looks like, and it’s very similar for both parties.

21:03

Amanda Testa: And I think, too, like you're saying, and just, too, when you're looking for support, that’s the thing with finding non-judgmental people sometimes, right? Because your friends love you, your family loves you, but they may not have that deeper understanding, and they probably are doing the best they can with the tools they have but it might not always be what you need.

Kylene Terhune: Right, well, and when someone hasn’t experienced it, they may not understand it. They may not understand how traumatic it is for you.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Kylene Terhune: Even if you're using words that are very dramatic, they may not understand it, and so, people have very, and I mean, opposite-ends-of-the-spectrum responses to you sharing your story, and I actually talk about this in my course, What’s Next, which is for the women who just discovered this in their lives because it is important to kind of figure out who do you find that is a safe person to talk to because it’s very unfortunate that not everyone is a safe person, and the reason is just what you said: they don't all express empathy.

22:00

When you're going through a trauma, it can be incredibly painful to have someone accidentally say something that drives the hurt deeper because they don't understand.

Amanda Testa: Yeah. Yeah.

Kylene Terhune: You can test out your relationships a little bit, but as you kind of work through them you’ll find out who those people are.

Amanda Testa: And I remember hearing you share once, too, just about the unkind things people say even to the betrayed person, right? It’s horrible. The things you shared, I’m like, “Oh, my goodness!”

Kylene Terhune: I know, sometimes people will say, “Well, you should have just had more sex with your husband,” or, I mean, even little things like if it’s particular to your story and they don't understand the impact that that has on you, right? Like, I was really upset when I found out that when Patrick would act out he would sometimes take off his wedding ring. That was really hurtful to me, and when I shared that with someone, their reply was, “Well, that’s because he loved you.” And I was like how is that a helpful comment, first of all? Because, to me, that sounds like you're defending his behavior, not empathizing with me, and what I’m trying to share is that my heart is breaking and that my husband was taking off a symbol of our commitment to each other when he was cheating on me. I don't understand how that’s not coming across. [Laughs] You know?

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

23:12

Kylene Terhune: So, things like that can be incredibly hurtful.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Kylene Terhune: The reality is someone doesn't even have to understand. There are other people that are just empathetic.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Kylene Terhune: And those people will say, “What do you need? How can I support you?” Or they’ll just listen, and sometimes that’s all you need.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and I think that’s good just to reiterate. What if a friend or loved one or someone in your family comes to you with something like this? What would be the best way to respond, right?

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, honestly, I think it’s just asking, “How can I support you? What do you need?” because everyone’s gonna be in a little bit of a different situation, and a lot of it would be -- I think one of the nicest, kindest, most supportive things you can possibly do is to reach out to someone consistently when you find out that this has happened. So, if you put an alarm in your phone or something like that, that every two days or every week or something like that, periodically, you send a text, and you go, “Thinking of you. How are you doing?”

24:05

That would be so nice and really just, for the person that receives that, would make them feel so thought of and loved in a time when they are questioning everything about their life and feeling, in a lot of ways, unloved.

Amanda Testa: I love that, and I think, too, I’m curious when it comes to -- so you’ve kind of created this program, What’s Next, for those that are just kind of like, “What the fuck just happened?” Excuse my language. “What happened? What happened?” Then going, from there, like, okay, so, here’s how you can start to wrap your head around what’s going on and start to get the support for yourself and your partner.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, so, What’s Next is really the take-at-your-own-pace course that’s really designed for women who just discovered that their husband is a sex or porn addict, and it really provides trauma education so that they can understand what’s happening in your body and so that you can learn how to set healthy boundaries and establish safety. I didn't really talk about that in the healing process, but, for the betrayed partner, establishing safety is really the foundation of recovery. It’s really, really important.

25:07

So, I talk about that a lot in the course and something that you can do. So, if you have a partner that is participating, they play a part in that process. If they're not, you have to do some of this stuff on your own because getting your nervous system in a place where it feels safe is the only way that, long-term, you’re gonna be able to recover and heal. So, establishing that is really important.

Then, I also do addiction education as well in the course so that you understand the brain a little bit more, and this is important so that we have empathy and compassion while not excusing the behavior, you know? We don't lump all of that in. It’s still wrong, it’s still hurtful, and when we understand the addiction, it just brings a different layer of knowledge to the equation so that we can understand kind of what’s happening in the big picture.

Then, I also walk them through what does the therapeutic process look like and how can they get connected to safe people. How can you create a team that really works for you to help you through this process, to get on the path of recovery and kind of laying that foundation in a strong way moving forward.

26:10

Amanda Testa: Yeah, beautiful. And, you know, you mentioned earlier, too, how being a nutritional practitioner, you have all this experience on how to take care of yourself, too, while you go through it which I think is also probably important, to not neglect those things which is sometimes so hard when you're in the throes of trying to move forward after a really traumatic event. Even doing those small things to take care of yourself can feel impossible sometimes.

Kylene Terhune: Oh, my gosh, yes, because there are so many times, when you're dealing with the nervous system, you're either up in fight or flight, and that takes up so many nutrients and so much energy and so many reserves that your body has that, then, it’ll drop down into overwhelm, and in overwhelm, you're feeling tired, you're in freeze, and you're feeling like reaching over there for that glass of water is just too hard or getting out of bed today seems overwhelming to me. I was there during this recovery process. There were days where it was just really hard, and that is just a reality of the process as you go through it.

27:05

So, that’s one of the reasons I’m so passionate about educating, about the nervous system, and about what happens and how you can get connected to the right resources as quickly as possible so that you can shorten that as much as possible.

One of the things we can do is be conscientious about the amount of sleep that we’re getting, about creating safety so that we can create a little foundation for ourselves to have that space and that safety, to make sure that we are bringing nutrients in and feeding our bodies in a way that replenishes the nutrients that all this stress is literally gobbling up for us. I mean, magnesium is just one major example of it’s used in so many parts of the body that as soon as we’re stressed out, I mean, that is getting used up. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kylene Terhune: So, that happens across the board, and if we can make the effort, in whatever way we’re currently capable of, to bring that nourishment in on multiple different levels, it can really help our body through the process.

28:02

Amanda Testa: I think, too, that’s the beautiful thing about understanding the nervous system is that you can just have more of an awareness of what’s going on and then kind of learn how to work with it, right? Mm-hmm.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, I mean, when we were working together, it’s amazing to me that so many different modalities can really help your brain and your nervous system at the same time, and the visualizations and things that we did I felt like were always getting me into parasympathetic so well, so well. And so, somatic work, meditation, visualization, all of those things can play a really, really important role, I think, in that part of the healing process.

Amanda Testa: I think, too, that it’s hard sometimes to get into that state, but, yeah, that’s when you can let your body do some repair and rest and nourish its sweet little self, right?

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, I mean, it is so important. When I talk about safety, I really emphasize that as the foundation of recovery because what’s happening in your nervous system when this all comes out is it interprets your partner and your current life situation as dangerous, and any danger that it receives is gonna throw you into fight or flight and this is gonna wear your body out over time.

29:17

So, any steps that we can take to begin nourishing and supporting and intentionally getting into that calm, safe space is going to help lay that foundation. Like I said, if your partner’s on board, great, because they play a huge role in establishing that safety. If they're not on board, it’s gonna be much more difficult, but there are still things that you can do to intentionally get yourself there and to help you through the process, for sure.

Amanda Testa: Right, and I think this just goes back to what you were saying earlier about the importance of doing the deeper work because, otherwise, you will kind of keep subconsciously triggering each other’s stress cycles when you're in each other’s presence if you don't do the deeper healing.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, and so, with the work that I do one-on-one, what I primarily focus on is a lot of the underlying emotional roots to things. So, I think that you can do all of the legs-up-the-wall deep breathing that you want, [Laughs] but if you still have a core belief about yourself or an insecurity about yourself that is really raw and unhealed, the trigger will still come and the cycle will continue.

30:19

But if we can get to the underlying emotional core of what is activating that process, then we can heal it and if it’s an identity, we can choose a new identity; if it’s an emotion, we can release the emotion; if it is conflicting parts within you, we can help them integrate so that you can make clearer choices and feel more grounded and aligned with your beliefs and your values and who you are.

That is some of the most powerful stuff that I discovered through this process. I just thought it was amazing. It blew my mind because, when I got into that, I had already done a year of talk therapy and trauma therapy and EMDR trauma processing and all this, which I still actively promote.

31:05

I think it’s very -- I just did it, right? I talked about that as part of the process. It laid a foundation, helped me tremendously, and then I was still hitting a wall, and I needed to find another way to work with my subconscious, and when I found the subconscious reprocessing work, I was like this is it! It just blew the wall apart and just helped me move forward in such a different way.

It really helps you self-identify the more you go through the process. So, then, you can really figure it out on your own faster. Like, what is underneath this, and I think this is something you do a lot in your work, too. It helps you really get more in touch with your body because what you're doing, ultimately, is communicating with it and listening to it when, so often, what we’re used to doing is suppressing which is why things get stuck in our body in the first place. But the more we do the subconscious reprogramming work, you're learning how to listen to your body and ask it, “Why is this emotion here?”

32:04

And then, in the exercises that I do with my clients, we, then, have your subconscious mind actually lead the process, and it’ll take you to the original event where this emotion or belief or whatever it is that we’re working on was created in your body. So, it’s interesting because it may not even be -- if it’s a belief that you’ve created that you're really struggling with, this betrayal may not be the first time that that was established in your body. So, your mind may not even take us back to something that just happened in the past six months or year or whatever when this happened; it may actually take us back to something that happened when you were, like, three, which I find fascinating, by the way. The brain is an amazing thing.

Amanda Testa: It is, right? [Laughs]

Kylene Terhune: Well, what’s really cool about it is if you can go back to the original event and your brain will do this so well when it’s ready to process this. What I love about the work that we do that’s very unique, I think, is that, then, we pull the positive learnings from it. So, whatever it is that happened, we’re gonna take away anything that still serves us and we’re gonna release and process anything that doesn't, and then we take all of the positive things that still serve us that we need, and we apply it to all the other events from then until now, and (talking about the parasympathetic) it’s such a grounding experience that you leave that process feeling lighter and more aligned and happier, and it’s really neat. Like, you can take a breath after those exercises.

33:24

Amanda Testa: And it’s so amazing, too, just the neuroplasticity our brains have because we can re-route the circuitry, right, so that when those things happen, we don't think the things we used to think. We don't have the manic reactions we used to have.

Kylene Terhune: Right.

Amanda Testa: It’s like we’re creating new associations, which is so powerful.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, that is so powerful, and I think that’s what’s so cool about learning. I love the education piece, right?

Amanda Testa: Yes. Yes.

Kylene Terhune: I like to know the why underneath it. So, for me, learning about the nervous system and what part you're in when you're feeling what, really that education is motivating to me, and then learning about how the brain can change and what that looks like, and then learning about the subconscious and about how everything that we’re really dealing with is kind of stored there and how, if we’re addressing it on that level, it’s actually gonna change the habits and patterns versus what we’re typically taught is, “Well, if you force yourself to change this habit for 21 days in a row,” right, and you're just struggling the whole time because the underlying belief hasn't changed at all, that’s where it’s different.

34:32

So, when you work with the subconscious, then you're going all the way back to that root, and then it starts changing on a brain level, and then the outcome is basically inevitable and you're like, “Wow, this is amazing.” It’s really, really cool.

Amanda Testa: I think I saw a meme about this or a video once that just really struck me because this woman was saying things and doing affirmations, it’s kind of basically why affirmations don't really work, right, because you're not doing the deeper thing. But it was like, “I’m so beautiful. I’m smart. Everybody loves me,” and then there’s this other part of her that’s like, “No, you're not. That’s not true,” all the things. Just, like, that’s what happens in our brains, right? [Laughs] We’ve got to get to this part that’s saying all these things, and you're like, “Okay, what’s going on with you? What do you need?”

Kylene Terhune: You're so right!

Amanda Testa: “Where are you from? What’s going on here?” Right?

35:14

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, I mean, there are two things to that. I totally agree with you, and that’s why people resist affirmations so much. They're like, “That’s such garbage,” right? “I’m not gonna believe that.” Well, that’s the thing is when you learn about the brain, forcing yourself to say something that it actually does not, on a core level, believe isn’t going to work. So, there are two things that you need to do here, and I think you should probably do both. One is going to the root of that disbelief, like where is that coming from? At what point in your life did you decide that this is impossible for you? When was that belief established and why? What was the external situation, and then what have you gathered as proof throughout your life that that’s not possible for you? Then, you deal with that.

But, then, the second thing is, with affirmations, they can be really powerful if you do them in a right way which is to find something in the middle that you -- okay, so, I’m not worthy, and I really believe that because of all these experiences that I’ve had that have proven that. But I want to feel worthy because I know, consciously, I am, right? So, what the heck do I do about that? Well, we just said saying, “I’m worthy,” over and over isn't gonna go well for our brain, right?

Amanda Testa: Right, right.

36:17

Kylene Terhune: But we can create something in between that says, “I choose to believe that I am X,” or we can say something that says, “I am currently working towards…” or, “I am --.” What you do is an action statement, and I learned this from my mentors because they went through the same stuff. It’s like you can't force your brain, right? But you can train it, and you can meet it where it’s at. What is believable that is further along than you are and moving you towards where you want to be, and you can create an affirmation out of that that works for you, and then once that feels really comfortable, you can move on and continue to build. But I even would say that probably won't work if you're not doing the other deeper stuff, but if you can do both, then you're totally winning.

Amanda Testa: Right, and even just in there, there’s so much to it, right? Because if you're dealing with the betrayal and maybe there’s a thought, and you come, like you said, consciously, you know this is not true. But, then, you notice, “Okay, what’s happening that I need to work with to get to a point where I can believe something along that road,” right? That gets you to where you want to believe until what you know is true matches what your subconscious thinks is true.

37:23

Kylene Terhune: Right?

Amanda Testa: [Laughs]

Kylene Terhune: [Laughs] Yeah, that’s the darn difference between your conscious and your self-conscious, right? It’s breaking that barrier and figuring out what’s the work here that actually makes sense, that you can believe and that, yeah. You're totally right.

Amanda Testa: And so, I’m wondering, too, when it comes to, I guess, if there is any other advice or support that you want to offer people who have dealt with betrayal -- maybe you can share some last words around that or anything you really want to leave them with.

Kylene Terhune: I think the biggest message that I like to share is that recovery is possible, and part of the reason I like to share that is because when you're in the midst of it, it feels so overwhelming like, “How am I ever gonna dig myself out of this?”

38:04

I mean, the depression is real. The overwhelm is real. The freeze is real. The shock can last a really long time depending on how long you've been in your relationship, what it’s looked like, and all these things. And so, I just want to encourage people that there is a recovery process. It is important to do the work. It’s the same thing as the addicts, right? It’s the same thing that if you are willing -- and it is uncomfortable, and I hate to say that because you're already in a lot of discomfort, but the healing process does bring some discomfort, but the reason you should choose that is because that discomfort is moving you towards the life that you want.

So, I always encourage people to have a very clear vision of what that is because I don't want you to feel stuck or to make decisions that don’t help you move towards that. If you can have a very clear vision and you know what the recovery process looks like, then somewhere in there you're gonna begin to move steps towards your vision and towards recovery, and whether that means that you're staying with your partner or whether that means that you're not, either one of those is okay, but you're gonna be moving towards that recovery, and that part is inevitable if you're willing to do the work. Yeah.

39:13

Amanda Testa: Beautiful. Thank you so much. I’m wondering if you would be open to sharing where people can connect with you and learn more about how you can support them if they are looking to deal with this betrayal.

Kylene Terhune: Yeah, absolutely. So, we talked about the What’s Next course for women that are just kind of finding out. That’s really for D-Day through six months. You're in shock, and there’s a lot you're trying to figure out there, and that’s where I’ll kind of support you in that course.

Then, I also work with clients one-on-one. They're a little further along, so the six plus months, right? You're kind of past the shock. And this is really my most immersive program for walking women who’ve experienced betrayal trauma through the deep emotional blocks and the trauma that we also mention sometimes shows up with physical symptoms as well.

40:00

And so, that’s a really immersive, intensive one-on-one, four-month program. It has online modules and then we also do a lot of the emotional processing and trauma work together so that we can do the work that helps you to release the negative emotions, you know? Because we don't want your anger and grief to become the filter that you live life through, and we want to begin, as we go through this process, to release anything that is keeping you stuck and hindering you from stepping into your authentic and most powerful and most vulnerable self.

And so, that’s kind of the work we do in that program. So, people can connect with me all over social media. On TikTok @kyleneterhune (it’s all my name) or on Instagram @kyleneterhune or I have a Facebook page Recover U, and that’s a Facebook page that can get connected. So, any of those platforms. You can DM me. You can reach out. I have links in my bios. If you're interested in working together, you can fill out an application there, too.

41:00

Amanda Testa: Yay! Well, thank you so much for coming on and just for sharing your wisdom. I am so grateful for you and all this amazing work that you're doing and all the people that you are helping. So, thank you.

Kylene Terhune: Thank you so much for letting me share my story and for having me on, Amanda. I love you so much, and I just appreciate the invitation, so thank you so much.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and for all listening, I’ll make sure to share where you can connect with Kylene in the show notes, again, and, yes, DM her or DM me if you have questions or want more information. We are here to support you, so please do that.

Maybe just even taking a moment, and what is something that was, perhaps, a gem that you're digesting from this episode, something that you might want to apply or take home or share with someone you know and love? And we’ll see you next week!

_______

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

42:00

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

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Amanda Testa is a trusted healer, coach, and guide who’s served hundreds of clients over the years with masterful skills in coaching, pleasure embodiment, and somatic trauma resolution.

Her clients tenderly heal their relationship with their sexuality, shamelessly embrace pleasure, own their sexy confidence, and cultivate deeply connected relationships with her fiercely loving support.

When she’s not leading transformative sessions, you can find her snuggling her spunky 10 year old, flirting with her sexy hubs, playing in nature, enjoying live music, and having epic conversations about sex with fellow experts on her Find Your Feminine Fire podcast.

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EPISODE 243: Coaching, Cults, and Self-Trust


Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa, and today I am talking about coaching, cults, and trusting yourself (finding your own truth), and I was inspired to do this episode because I know not all of you are in the coaching industry or even aware of this, so know, first and foremost, I’m a sex and relationship coach, and that’s what I love to do, but also, I am in the business of coaching, and I always, for the past three years, have been a senior teacher for a big coaching company. And so, a lot of the work that I do is around mentoring coaches and creative professionals as well as a lot of my clients are also coaches and creative professionals.

So, I just want to give you that heads up for this episode, but I think there’s value in it no matter who you are because, really, what it’s all about is learning to trust yourself and being discerning, right? And I think this is very important, and sometimes I think, okay, I’ve been in this industry for a long, long time, and I’ve learned a lot of different things, and some of them are, quite frankly, problematic.

1:07

Some of them are icky, specifically when it comes to sales and marketing, and I will just let you know that my background is that I was in business school in college. I went to The University of Georgia, and I studied business, and I was in sales my whole career. I was in corporate sales and marketing for 15+ years, and so, I have a lot of experience around sales and marketing, not to mention, I started my coaching business. You know, I started working for myself around 2010 and realized what it really takes to market yourself in a different way, and there is a difference between selling a corporation or selling something and selling yourself which that’s another thing that’s important in this work is making that discernment of you are not your business, right? Your business is something that you do, but it’s kind of just realizing they’re two separate hats that you're wearing, and a lot of times something that I see often is coaches or creative professionals will get really down on themselves if their business isn't doing exactly what they want it to do, they make it mean that they, themselves, are wrong. So just, first of all, I want to note that. I’ll come back to that in a minute.

2:10

Back to what I was saying is that I have a lot of experience in this, and I’ve been in personal growth and development, and I’ve always been passionate about this topic (being healthy, taking care of the environment). These are things that have always been near and dear to me since I was a young kid, and I even remember when I went to college and when I graduated, my dad was in real estate, and I thought I was gonna be a realtor and do all this and that, and I was like I just can't. I just can't be part of that development. Our earth and its resources are so finite as it is. I don't feel good about that. So, I’m just a passionate heart-centered person, and that just explains a lot of who I am.

But something that I’ve seen a lot lately in the coaching industry, and if any of you are in this industry, you might know that a lot of things are coming under fire with some certain big-name coaches. I don't even know. One of these people I don't even really know much about them, but I do know a lot about charismatic leaders, and I was just listening to a really good podcast from Glennon Doyle, We Can Do Hard Things.

3:09

You know I love that podcast. I always talk about it. So, they were interviewing this woman who had been in the NXIVM cult. So, just a trigger warning, we’re gonna be talking about culty things. That’s why I put the name in the title. But I do sense there are a lot of similarities between personal growth and development and cults, in some ways. And I’m just gonna preface this with there’s also a difference, right? There’s a difference, but what I see often happening is using psychology, using the tools that you know to support someone and using them differently. Some of the words this woman Sarah Edmonson mentioned in that podcast were it’s like the knife in the hands of a talented surgeon versus the talented surgeon using that knife for committing murder, right? It’s how you use the tools, and that is so important because something that even in the roots of online marketing, right -- in 2015 when I started taking my business to online marketing, I was like, “Well, yes, I don't know a lot about this. Let me learn.”

4:05

And so, as anyone who is a student in a seeking mode, we often want to search out all the answers. We go to all of the people that supposedly know the answers and we’re gonna invest in their programs and learn from them. Let me just tell you right now, sometimes that can be really good. Some people out there are really good and give really good information, and some people out there are teaching things that I think are problematic and predatory, and I want to speak to that because that’s some of the things that some of these people that I learn from that I’m like mm, that just don't feel right, and I think that right there is your first clue.

If something doesn't feel right, then you have to stop and explore what that’s about because I think there’s a difference between feeling a little resistance and being curious and exploring what that edge is versus being forced to push past what your body’s telling you, what your boundaries are telling you and overriding those sensations. And some transformational leaders use that strategy because they see it work and that’s one strategy.

5:02

I do not do that because I don't believe in that. I think it’s problematic, but I see it, and I’ve been in this industry a long time. I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve been through a lot of different programs. I’ve worked with a lot of different big-name people out there. Something I see in that as well is specifically when you go to an event, for example, and there’s this big-name person who is kind of getting everyone into a conference room, and you're in the conference room for three to five days (maybe even seven or ten days depending on what it is), and you are required to be there at the crack of dawn, and then you go and go and go with very little breaks. Maybe they don't give you a break. Maybe they encourage you to stay and, “Why are you trying to leave?” and bring you food in, and really just kind of get you emotionally exhausted in a way so they can reprogram you with things that they -- which are helpful in some ways, but predatory in some ways, right? The good is there but also the not-so-good is there. So, then, they get you into this state.

6:00

You're going, and you're staying late into the night. You're getting all pumped up. They're filling you with all the things you want to hear. They’ve heard all your deepest darkest things, and they want to turn those around and use them as fuel to get you to where you want to go, and then what they do is then they’ll sell you, right? Then they make their pitch. They sell you. That, “Oh, you need the next thing. You need the next level. You’ve got to be in my inner circle. You’ve got to be in the mastermind. You’ve got to do this and that because that’s where the answers are, and you’ve got to keep investing and spending your time and surrounding yourself with these same groups of people. That, my friends, is problematic to me, okay? I’ll say it. It is problematic to me. I don't like it, and I don't approve of it, and there’s a difference in having masterminds and supportive groups where you really are learning and growing and making great connections. That is a positive thing.

But also, I see sometimes in this industry that your ego is fed by the people that want you to buy their thing, and I know I probably have made mistakes in the past around this just practicing what I was being taught, and I have some regrets about that, but I really, truly believe I’ve never forced anyone to do anything against their will to override their inner judgment because that’s something I always -- that’s the number one thing that I work with clients about, specifically, because I do a lot of trauma resolution.

7:14

Working with people that -- you trust yourself first and foremost. You know what’s right for you. I don't, and I’m gonna trust that inner blueprint in you that knows what’s right for you, and that’s gonna lead the show, not me, not some grandiose idea of what I think I can accomplish. It’s like using the tools and things that I’ve learned, the knowledge that I’ve gained, to support you to your deepest knowing, not me putting my agenda on you. So, I just want to name that too because that’s something that irritates me.

But so, anyways, and so, what I’ve seen from being in that environment and from being in that system of, “Yes, I’ve got to go to the next thing, and I need to buy the next thing, and I need to spend all my money, and I need to get in debt, and I need to give them my credit card, and I want to be in this group because that’s where all the cool kids are, and I need that. If I want to be successful, then I need that,” right? We think that we need the next level, the next thing. “Oh, well, if you think this is good, then you need to be in my super high-ticket mastermind. If you think this is good, then you should see my $100,000 a year mastermind,” right?

8:07

And I’ve been there, and I’ve been in those circles, and something I see inside them as well is the exact opposite of inclusivity, right? It’s like you are surrounded by people, and you are in this inner circle. It’s like a weird inner circle. “We are the people that know all the things. We’re gonna support each other. We’re gonna help each other.” But what I do see in that, yes, there are amazing people that you’ll make good relationships with. That is priceless and some of the amazing friendships that I’ve made, but I’ve also seen the downside of that where it’s like, “Oh, well, these people think they're all the bigshots, and everyone else is a peon,” and so, it’s maintaining these hierarchies that are not conducive, that just reinforce these systems of oppression that I am against. And so, I have to speak to this because it makes me livid.

In 2019, I was at the pinnacle of that, and I really burned out. I was like, “This is fucked up. This is not right.”

9:01

Maybe I’m making money. Maybe things are good. But I don't feel good about how this is being done, and I was like, “I need a different way,” right? This is not gonna work for me. I don't like feeling like I’m constantly having to split my soul open and pour my guts out to try to make a buck. That’s not within my values, right? There’s a difference between being vulnerable and being authentic and using it to try to gain followers or using it to sell something, and this is probably -- my husband will joke. He’s like, “You're too much of a bleeding heart. You're not gonna make business. You're not gonna make money that way.” That’s not true. I do make money, but I probably am losing certain people because I refuse to force people and to make them feel coerced, right? I think being on the other side of that, it doesn't feel good, right? When you come to, you're like, “What the hell did I just do?” [Laughs] Right?

And this is what they teach you in sales. They teach you, “Okay, you want to get someone into a psychological state. Let them share their pain points, and then show how you can help them.” Which, you know, in some ways yes, that’s true. You can, but there’s a difference between using that to support someone and using that to manipulate someone.

10:04

And so, in these environments where you stay at one of these big-time events from a big-time guy and there are 10,000 people in the room, and you get exhausted, you get put in these states, and then you are encouraged to buy the next thing, and you see all these people doing it, and they're getting praised, and they're getting celebrated, and you're like, “Oh, that must be the right thing to do,” right? [Laughs] That’s the difference. That, to me, is a predatory type of thing versus using your tools to help someone truly come to an aligned decision, not like, “I’m gonna exhaust you. I’m gonna get you wrapped up into my indoctrination and then I’m going to sell you on the next thing and tell you there’s a limited amount of time and pressure you to make that decision.” That is wrong to me, and I don't like it.

So, I’m gonna say that I do not like it. I don't talk about this enough, but I need to because it’s something that I’m fired up about, and so, that’s why I’m doing this podcast today because I’m like I just need to freakin’ vent and get these things off my chest. And I get it. So many of these people do a lot of good in the world. They are well-meaning people. They have amazing hearts, and I don't like when the tools that are supposed to be used to help people are used to manipulate people.

11:14

And, truly, to be honest with you, the roots of online marketing are based in that information, right? Using those psychological things to sell to people, and the people use it because it works, but I think there are ways to share and to support people without having to use those predatory tactics which is one of the reasons why I’m creating the Come Alive Coaching Coven because I know how to do things differently, and you can be successful doing it. So, I’m just gonna rename that again. That’s one of the reasons why I did it.

But, yes, so, you know, we don't want to override our inner knowing at any time, and this is one of the things that I see. It’s like the number one thing that you need to learn in this world (and this is the other thing that Glennon was saying on her podcast which I love, and I am so agreeing with) is that there is no answer, right?

12:02

No one knows all the answers. We’re all just humans doing the best we can, and being behind the curtains, behind really big successful people or celebrities or seeing them and being with them, they're just like you and I. We’re all the same people. We all have the same doubts. We all have the same insecurities. We are the same, and it’s just trusting ourselves and knowing how do we want to show up, how do we want to trust ourselves. This other person is no different than you. This other person is not different than me. Someone who’s making a billion dollars is no different than you or me in some ways. In some ways they are. In some ways they're not, right? It’s just a kind of knowing. We’re all human beings. We all have similar wants and desires, and that’s why we can sometimes be preyed upon, right? We all want to feel like we belong. We all want to feel like we’re a part of something.

I was even watching something the other day, watching someone pitch another big-name person who’s an amazing, amazing person that I value a lot of what I’ve learned from this person and they’re just doing a lot of good in the world as well.

13:00

But then when I see the same kind of tactics being used and taught, I don't feel good about that because, yes, we want to inspire people and to encourage people and to get people to make decisions that are gonna be in alignment with what they want and where they want to go, and I think there’s a difference in doing that in a way that’s truly respectful and a way that’s manipulative, and I personally don't like to manipulate. I think that’s a big thing for me probably because of my own experience, whatever it is. So, I choose to do my business in a trauma-informed way and to run my business in a trauma-informed way to be transparent about all the things, right? Because I think that’s so important, and that’s what truly, to me, builds trust.

And so, needless to say, [Laughs] I’ve lost my train of thought for a second. Oh, yes, okay, so, when you're working with someone who truly knows about how to support you in a way that feels good, who’s not gonna push you beyond your own body’s sovereignty, to not push you past your own knowing, then that’s the kind of person you want to work with.

14:08

So, I just want you to -- the other message of this podcast is to really be discerning. Really be discerning. Trust yourself more than anything, and I know that can sometimes be hard, especially for coaches, and a lot of the people that I work with, or I’ve seen in business that have spent a lot of money or done a lot of things and haven't gotten the results they wanted, and they may lack trust in their ability to make decisions. So, what I always invite you to do there is to just not beat yourself up and kind of trust. You got what you needed in some ways out of that situation but also what can you do differently to feel better, right? Because I think that also happens a lot of times in the business coaching world where people are like, “Well, you just didn't show up enough,” or, “You're just not doing the work,” or, “Maybe you just need to do some deeper work around that,” right? Which, in other words, yes, in some ways that’s true, but it’s also like I truly believe that when you show up to something, you're gonna get what you need in the way that you can by showing up, and, yes, when you do the extra homework and other things that reinforces what you're learning and doing, but the act of showing up and coming to the session or whatever, you're gonna get what you need there.

15:10

The other stuff is gravy on top that helps you to integrate. And so, a good coach is going to show up for you and meet you where you are and help you get to the next level, realistically, and I think that is what is a really important thing. What is realistic and what is doable because, yes, you know, another part of online marketing which, in coaching, the business coaches, they're all showing you their flashy lifestyle or how they're spending money on this or that and that, to me, also just reinforces a materialistic capitalistic culture that I don't want to be a part of. Yes, I want to have money, I want to be able to nourish myself and take care of myself and my family, create a legacy that will encourage their minor financial comfort, but also in that, helping people who need help, supporting others, not just gathering and amassing things. So, it grosses me out.

16:01

This is a lot of my own opinion, so maybe you resonate, maybe you don't, that’s totally fine, but I just think a lot of this is coming up in the industry right now because people have fallen down that hole, and they’ve fallen down listening to the gurus and speaking the language and not trusting themselves and just going along with things maybe just to make money or maybe because it’s easy or for whatever reason, but not maybe holding the cleanest of spaces. And I’m very grateful to have amazing mentors that I’ve worked with that are incredible about holding clean spaces. It’s one of the things I love about Layla Martin, one of my coaches, and I’ve been on her team the past three years. That’s one of the things I love about Rachael Maddox, one of my mentors who I adore.

So, a lot of these experiences aren't talking about those people, but in general, I see it so much happening even from good-hearted people, right? Just seeing how they prey on what it is that you want so much when it comes to business. We all want success, we all want to make money, we all want to be successful, and we can't promise that to anyone no matter how good our teachings are, no matter what epic transformation we’ll offer, yes, some of the people are gonna have those epic results.

17:10

Some people are going to go on and up their prices to $50k a session or whatever they want to do, right? I don't think that’s necessarily the most fair thing to do. Whatever. People do what they want. People pay for all kinds of things so who am I to judge, right? People pay $40,000 for a couch. People pay all kinds of money for all kinds of things. People can choose what they want to spend their money on. They can choose what they do with themselves, but I feel like, yes, there’s a lot out there in the coaching industry around charging whatever you want and this, that, and the other, and I disagree. I think, yes, coaching is expensive because it’s kind of a luxury product in a way, right? This is not a necessity. I mean, it would be great if it was. I think therapy should be a necessity but coaching sometimes is really helping me to get to a different level or to learn something that can enhance your life.

18:05

I think a lot of it, yes, I feel like sexuality is an amazing thing. It can totally transform people when they get able to connect to themselves and have that confidence, but it is a luxury in a way.

And so, the other thing I’m gonna go back to that stood out to me about the cult thing is this is what can happen in those cult-like environments, and this is what can happen also I see sometimes in the coaching industry that’s problematic is this is a lot of it is selling the illusion of hope, right? Selling that illusion of hope. This is a lot of what we’re taught, but I think that what really speaks for what works is not necessarily just sharing your best success stories from your best clients, but the reality of all the things people accomplish. Some people go from having zero sensation to having orgasms for the first time in their lives. A lot of people do. Most people make a lot of steps on their journey to self-love, to accepting themselves how they are, to accepting their relationships as they are, to growing and being better and having more connection, all of that.

19:09

And so, I think that these are tangible things, and the same way with the business world, right? When you're coaching someone around business, it’s like creating that foundation, and oftentimes, when you look back at the past however much you’ve spent together, huge shifts have been happening in these people’s lives. A lot of them are monetary; some of them aren't. And so, I think that’s one of the things about disclaimers other than it’s important to share as a coach or as a person supporting people in this way is the reality: not everyone gets the same result, right? But what I do know is that when you are in my presence, you are gonna get love, you are gonna get presence, you are gonna get attention, and you are gonna get my best at helping you somatically move through whatever you're experiencing in the moment which that, in the end, is what’s gonna help you to be a more resourced human which helps you to do whatever it is you're doing in the world with more care and more capacity and that is some important.

20:02

I mean, I don't think that you can put a better price point on that, and I also think that being able to market in a way that feels good is important and that feels aligned with my values is important. And so, actually it’s not easy, right? It’s not easy. This is something I’ve been grappling with for the past two years, and there are some wonderful mentors that have been helping me navigate this stuff, people like Rachael Maddox, people like Kelly Diels, people out there that are doing good feminist marketing that is a different way. And so, this is why I’ve been so passionate to create something different and to teach something different because I know, ugh, if I’d only learned these things back when I was first starting my business, I would have been saved a lot of burnout, a lot of pain, a lot of self-doubt, and it’s not easy to build a business. It’s not easy to be an entrepreneur. Our systems are set up to support the big guys, (the big corporations, the people with money) and being a small business or an entrepreneur has its set of challenges.

21:00

And so, you’ve got to be real smart so that you don't burnout and that you continue doing your work in a way that feels good and doing it in a way that you can make money because that’s a big important part of it, right? There are so many people doing good healing work out there that aren’t getting what they need in return.

So, what I really strive to do is weave together what is -- I strive to teach my students and my clients that there’s a way to do things that are in alignment, and you don't have to prey on psychological marketing and doing things in a way that doesn't feel good to you.

Looking back now, like I mentioned, some of the trainings that I did, they do a lot -- some of the ones that I did from big-name people that have millions and millions of dollars sold, they encourage some tactics that I don’t feel that are great, you know, around encouraging people to get a second mortgage or to take out a loan. Those are the kind of predatory tactics that I don't believe in, right?

22:03

I want the people that are working with me to feel good about spending the money and not put themselves in a place of extreme debt or this is why I offer scholarships and other things to support people because that, to me, is predatory and wrong.

My apologies for the background noise, but I had to get this -- and I forgot I was doing laundry, my kid’s got a playdate upstairs screaming around, so [Laughs] that’s the real world.

So, anyways, just to kind of recap, I know I was riffing a lot on this episode because I’m very passionate about this, but just to kind of recap kind of the correlation that I see between some of this cult-like behavior, even just the language people use and the way that they speak about certain things is something to be aware of, right? And how maybe there are elements of good in those things, but also really being discerning about what is truly going to serve you and what’s feeling good and really trusting your gut. If anyone’s pressuring you or pushing you or, you know, making you feel too uncomfortable then that’s something to think about and really feel what’s beneath that.

23:09

Secondly, is that there are ways to market your business and do it in a way that is more trauma-informed, to do sales in a more consensual way so that people are really making the decisions from a place of alignment versus a place of coercion, and also, knowing that this is important when you are working with clients and when you're serving people is that you be an example of what you believe in and what’s true to your values, and so, those are the things that I strive to do, and I know I make a ton of mistakes because I’m a privileged white woman and I’m cis and I’m straight and I’m all these things that are privileged and I haven't earned a lot of this and I know that and I’m doing a lot of work to recondition all of those things too. It’s just a very -- it’s not easy. It’s complex and complicated, but it’s something I’m committed to so I will show up again and again for it.

23:59

So, I think, again, knowing that a good coach is gonna help you to grow, is not gonna push you to the point where you feel like you're going beyond what feels comfortable, and that’s the beauty of trauma-informed care, right? It’s like you dip into difficulty, go back to where it feels good. You go with the slowest part of you. You do what’s doable. You make those steps in a doable way, and I think when you can call in people in a loving and aligned way, then you don't have to use those predatory marketing tactics. You don't have to get someone holed up in a room for five days without a break and try to break them down mentally. Now, I get it. A lot of these things work and that’s why people use them, right? And the intention is that these people change and have a positive change in their lives, yes, but there are ways to do it that aren’t so painful, that don't involve those types of things.

So, I’m just giving you this episode to share about that’s why I created something different and that’s what I love about the Come Alive Coven and creating business tactics that create a business from a strong foundation without using these outdated things that I think need to be done with, just reinforcing the patriarchal culture that I’m not for.

25:05

So, if this aligns with you and you're curious to learn more, you can go to www.amandatesta.com/comealive and learn more about it.

I’d love, too, to hear your thoughts on this. If you’re a coach or you're in the coaching industry or if you're seeing some of the things that are happening out there that you don't feel good about, I’d love to know your opinion. So, please do send me a DM on Instagram. You can DM me @abtesta. I’d love to know your thoughts. How are you navigating this, and how do you want to show up in a way that’s different? What are the things that you feel like need to be said that you maybe are afraid to say because a lot of these things I’ve been afraid to say, and now I’m like, “You know what? I’m just gonna say what’s true,” because maybe I’m gonna mess it up, maybe I’m gonna bumble along, but, to me, it feels important to share what’s on my heart and why I do things differently and why I think it’s important to do things differently.

I so appreciate you for listening. Thank you for being here, and we will look forward to seeing you next time.EPISODE 243: Coaching, Cults, and Self-Trust

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa, and today I am talking about coaching, cults, and trusting yourself (finding your own truth), and I was inspired to do this episode because I know not all of you are in the coaching industry or even aware of this, so know, first and foremost, I’m a sex and relationship coach, and that’s what I love to do, but also, I am in the business of coaching, and I always, for the past three years, have been a senior teacher for a big coaching company. And so, a lot of the work that I do is around mentoring coaches and creative professionals as well as a lot of my clients are also coaches and creative professionals.

So, I just want to give you that heads up for this episode, but I think there’s value in it no matter who you are because, really, what it’s all about is learning to trust yourself and being discerning, right? And I think this is very important, and sometimes I think, okay, I’ve been in this industry for a long, long time, and I’ve learned a lot of different things, and some of them are, quite frankly, problematic.

1:07

Some of them are icky, specifically when it comes to sales and marketing, and I will just let you know that my background is that I was in business school in college. I went to The University of Georgia, and I studied business, and I was in sales my whole career. I was in corporate sales and marketing for 15+ years, and so, I have a lot of experience around sales and marketing, not to mention, I started my coaching business. You know, I started working for myself around 2010 and realized what it really takes to market yourself in a different way, and there is a difference between selling a corporation or selling something and selling yourself which that’s another thing that’s important in this work is making that discernment of you are not your business, right? Your business is something that you do, but it’s kind of just realizing they’re two separate hats that you're wearing, and a lot of times something that I see often is coaches or creative professionals will get really down on themselves if their business isn't doing exactly what they want it to do, they make it mean that they, themselves, are wrong. So just, first of all, I want to note that. I’ll come back to that in a minute.

2:10

Back to what I was saying is that I have a lot of experience in this, and I’ve been in personal growth and development, and I’ve always been passionate about this topic (being healthy, taking care of the environment). These are things that have always been near and dear to me since I was a young kid, and I even remember when I went to college and when I graduated, my dad was in real estate, and I thought I was gonna be a realtor and do all this and that, and I was like I just can't. I just can't be part of that development. Our earth and its resources are so finite as it is. I don't feel good about that. So, I’m just a passionate heart-centered person, and that just explains a lot of who I am.

But something that I’ve seen a lot lately in the coaching industry, and if any of you are in this industry, you might know that a lot of things are coming under fire with some certain big-name coaches. I don't even know. One of these people I don't even really know much about them, but I do know a lot about charismatic leaders, and I was just listening to a really good podcast from Glennon Doyle, We Can Do Hard Things.

3:09

You know I love that podcast. I always talk about it. So, they were interviewing this woman who had been in the NXIVM cult. So, just a trigger warning, we’re gonna be talking about culty things. That’s why I put the name in the title. But I do sense there are a lot of similarities between personal growth and development and cults, in some ways. And I’m just gonna preface this with there’s also a difference, right? There’s a difference, but what I see often happening is using psychology, using the tools that you know to support someone and using them differently. Some of the words this woman Sarah Edmonson mentioned in that podcast were it’s like the knife in the hands of a talented surgeon versus the talented surgeon using that knife for committing murder, right? It’s how you use the tools, and that is so important because something that even in the roots of online marketing, right -- in 2015 when I started taking my business to online marketing, I was like, “Well, yes, I don't know a lot about this. Let me learn.”

4:05

And so, as anyone who is a student in a seeking mode, we often want to search out all the answers. We go to all of the people that supposedly know the answers and we’re gonna invest in their programs and learn from them. Let me just tell you right now, sometimes that can be really good. Some people out there are really good and give really good information, and some people out there are teaching things that I think are problematic and predatory, and I want to speak to that because that’s some of the things that some of these people that I learn from that I’m like mm, that just don't feel right, and I think that right there is your first clue.

If something doesn't feel right, then you have to stop and explore what that’s about because I think there’s a difference between feeling a little resistance and being curious and exploring what that edge is versus being forced to push past what your body’s telling you, what your boundaries are telling you and overriding those sensations. And some transformational leaders use that strategy because they see it work and that’s one strategy.

5:02

I do not do that because I don't believe in that. I think it’s problematic, but I see it, and I’ve been in this industry a long time. I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve been through a lot of different programs. I’ve worked with a lot of different big-name people out there. Something I see in that as well is specifically when you go to an event, for example, and there’s this big-name person who is kind of getting everyone into a conference room, and you're in the conference room for three to five days (maybe even seven or ten days depending on what it is), and you are required to be there at the crack of dawn, and then you go and go and go with very little breaks. Maybe they don't give you a break. Maybe they encourage you to stay and, “Why are you trying to leave?” and bring you food in, and really just kind of get you emotionally exhausted in a way so they can reprogram you with things that they -- which are helpful in some ways, but predatory in some ways, right? The good is there but also the not-so-good is there. So, then, they get you into this state.

6:00

You're going, and you're staying late into the night. You're getting all pumped up. They're filling you with all the things you want to hear. They’ve heard all your deepest darkest things, and they want to turn those around and use them as fuel to get you to where you want to go, and then what they do is then they’ll sell you, right? Then they make their pitch. They sell you. That, “Oh, you need the next thing. You need the next level. You’ve got to be in my inner circle. You’ve got to be in the mastermind. You’ve got to do this and that because that’s where the answers are, and you’ve got to keep investing and spending your time and surrounding yourself with these same groups of people. That, my friends, is problematic to me, okay? I’ll say it. It is problematic to me. I don't like it, and I don't approve of it, and there’s a difference in having masterminds and supportive groups where you really are learning and growing and making great connections. That is a positive thing.

But also, I see sometimes in this industry that your ego is fed by the people that want you to buy their thing, and I know I probably have made mistakes in the past around this just practicing what I was being taught, and I have some regrets about that, but I really, truly believe I’ve never forced anyone to do anything against their will to override their inner judgment because that’s something I always -- that’s the number one thing that I work with clients about, specifically, because I do a lot of trauma resolution.

7:14

Working with people that -- you trust yourself first and foremost. You know what’s right for you. I don't, and I’m gonna trust that inner blueprint in you that knows what’s right for you, and that’s gonna lead the show, not me, not some grandiose idea of what I think I can accomplish. It’s like using the tools and things that I’ve learned, the knowledge that I’ve gained, to support you to your deepest knowing, not me putting my agenda on you. So, I just want to name that too because that’s something that irritates me.

But so, anyways, and so, what I’ve seen from being in that environment and from being in that system of, “Yes, I’ve got to go to the next thing, and I need to buy the next thing, and I need to spend all my money, and I need to get in debt, and I need to give them my credit card, and I want to be in this group because that’s where all the cool kids are, and I need that. If I want to be successful, then I need that,” right? We think that we need the next level, the next thing. “Oh, well, if you think this is good, then you need to be in my super high-ticket mastermind. If you think this is good, then you should see my $100,000 a year mastermind,” right?

8:07

And I’ve been there, and I’ve been in those circles, and something I see inside them as well is the exact opposite of inclusivity, right? It’s like you are surrounded by people, and you are in this inner circle. It’s like a weird inner circle. “We are the people that know all the things. We’re gonna support each other. We’re gonna help each other.” But what I do see in that, yes, there are amazing people that you’ll make good relationships with. That is priceless and some of the amazing friendships that I’ve made, but I’ve also seen the downside of that where it’s like, “Oh, well, these people think they're all the bigshots, and everyone else is a peon,” and so, it’s maintaining these hierarchies that are not conducive, that just reinforce these systems of oppression that I am against. And so, I have to speak to this because it makes me livid.

In 2019, I was at the pinnacle of that, and I really burned out. I was like, “This is fucked up. This is not right.”

9:01

Maybe I’m making money. Maybe things are good. But I don't feel good about how this is being done, and I was like, “I need a different way,” right? This is not gonna work for me. I don't like feeling like I’m constantly having to split my soul open and pour my guts out to try to make a buck. That’s not within my values, right? There’s a difference between being vulnerable and being authentic and using it to try to gain followers or using it to sell something, and this is probably -- my husband will joke. He’s like, “You're too much of a bleeding heart. You're not gonna make business. You're not gonna make money that way.” That’s not true. I do make money, but I probably am losing certain people because I refuse to force people and to make them feel coerced, right? I think being on the other side of that, it doesn't feel good, right? When you come to, you're like, “What the hell did I just do?” [Laughs] Right?

And this is what they teach you in sales. They teach you, “Okay, you want to get someone into a psychological state. Let them share their pain points, and then show how you can help them.” Which, you know, in some ways yes, that’s true. You can, but there’s a difference between using that to support someone and using that to manipulate someone.

10:04

And so, in these environments where you stay at one of these big-time events from a big-time guy and there are 10,000 people in the room, and you get exhausted, you get put in these states, and then you are encouraged to buy the next thing, and you see all these people doing it, and they're getting praised, and they're getting celebrated, and you're like, “Oh, that must be the right thing to do,” right? [Laughs] That’s the difference. That, to me, is a predatory type of thing versus using your tools to help someone truly come to an aligned decision, not like, “I’m gonna exhaust you. I’m gonna get you wrapped up into my indoctrination and then I’m going to sell you on the next thing and tell you there’s a limited amount of time and pressure you to make that decision.” That is wrong to me, and I don't like it.

So, I’m gonna say that I do not like it. I don't talk about this enough, but I need to because it’s something that I’m fired up about, and so, that’s why I’m doing this podcast today because I’m like I just need to freakin’ vent and get these things off my chest. And I get it. So many of these people do a lot of good in the world. They are well-meaning people. They have amazing hearts, and I don't like when the tools that are supposed to be used to help people are used to manipulate people.

11:14

And, truly, to be honest with you, the roots of online marketing are based in that information, right? Using those psychological things to sell to people, and the people use it because it works, but I think there are ways to share and to support people without having to use those predatory tactics which is one of the reasons why I’m creating the Come Alive Coaching Coven because I know how to do things differently, and you can be successful doing it. So, I’m just gonna rename that again. That’s one of the reasons why I did it.

But, yes, so, you know, we don't want to override our inner knowing at any time, and this is one of the things that I see. It’s like the number one thing that you need to learn in this world (and this is the other thing that Glennon was saying on her podcast which I love, and I am so agreeing with) is that there is no answer, right?

12:02

No one knows all the answers. We’re all just humans doing the best we can, and being behind the curtains, behind really big successful people or celebrities or seeing them and being with them, they're just like you and I. We’re all the same people. We all have the same doubts. We all have the same insecurities. We are the same, and it’s just trusting ourselves and knowing how do we want to show up, how do we want to trust ourselves. This other person is no different than you. This other person is not different than me. Someone who’s making a billion dollars is no different than you or me in some ways. In some ways they are. In some ways they're not, right? It’s just a kind of knowing. We’re all human beings. We all have similar wants and desires, and that’s why we can sometimes be preyed upon, right? We all want to feel like we belong. We all want to feel like we’re a part of something.

I was even watching something the other day, watching someone pitch another big-name person who’s an amazing, amazing person that I value a lot of what I’ve learned from this person and they’re just doing a lot of good in the world as well.

13:00

But then when I see the same kind of tactics being used and taught, I don't feel good about that because, yes, we want to inspire people and to encourage people and to get people to make decisions that are gonna be in alignment with what they want and where they want to go, and I think there’s a difference in doing that in a way that’s truly respectful and a way that’s manipulative, and I personally don't like to manipulate. I think that’s a big thing for me probably because of my own experience, whatever it is. So, I choose to do my business in a trauma-informed way and to run my business in a trauma-informed way to be transparent about all the things, right? Because I think that’s so important, and that’s what truly, to me, builds trust.

And so, needless to say, [Laughs] I’ve lost my train of thought for a second. Oh, yes, okay, so, when you're working with someone who truly knows about how to support you in a way that feels good, who’s not gonna push you beyond your own body’s sovereignty, to not push you past your own knowing, then that’s the kind of person you want to work with.

14:08

So, I just want you to -- the other message of this podcast is to really be discerning. Really be discerning. Trust yourself more than anything, and I know that can sometimes be hard, especially for coaches, and a lot of the people that I work with, or I’ve seen in business that have spent a lot of money or done a lot of things and haven't gotten the results they wanted, and they may lack trust in their ability to make decisions. So, what I always invite you to do there is to just not beat yourself up and kind of trust. You got what you needed in some ways out of that situation but also what can you do differently to feel better, right? Because I think that also happens a lot of times in the business coaching world where people are like, “Well, you just didn't show up enough,” or, “You're just not doing the work,” or, “Maybe you just need to do some deeper work around that,” right? Which, in other words, yes, in some ways that’s true, but it’s also like I truly believe that when you show up to something, you're gonna get what you need in the way that you can by showing up, and, yes, when you do the extra homework and other things that reinforces what you're learning and doing, but the act of showing up and coming to the session or whatever, you're gonna get what you need there.

15:10

The other stuff is gravy on top that helps you to integrate. And so, a good coach is going to show up for you and meet you where you are and help you get to the next level, realistically, and I think that is what is a really important thing. What is realistic and what is doable because, yes, you know, another part of online marketing which, in coaching, the business coaches, they're all showing you their flashy lifestyle or how they're spending money on this or that and that, to me, also just reinforces a materialistic capitalistic culture that I don't want to be a part of. Yes, I want to have money, I want to be able to nourish myself and take care of myself and my family, create a legacy that will encourage their minor financial comfort, but also in that, helping people who need help, supporting others, not just gathering and amassing things. So, it grosses me out.

16:01

This is a lot of my own opinion, so maybe you resonate, maybe you don't, that’s totally fine, but I just think a lot of this is coming up in the industry right now because people have fallen down that hole, and they’ve fallen down listening to the gurus and speaking the language and not trusting themselves and just going along with things maybe just to make money or maybe because it’s easy or for whatever reason, but not maybe holding the cleanest of spaces. And I’m very grateful to have amazing mentors that I’ve worked with that are incredible about holding clean spaces. It’s one of the things I love about Layla Martin, one of my coaches, and I’ve been on her team the past three years. That’s one of the things I love about Rachael Maddox, one of my mentors who I adore.

So, a lot of these experiences aren't talking about those people, but in general, I see it so much happening even from good-hearted people, right? Just seeing how they prey on what it is that you want so much when it comes to business. We all want success, we all want to make money, we all want to be successful, and we can't promise that to anyone no matter how good our teachings are, no matter what epic transformation we’ll offer, yes, some of the people are gonna have those epic results.

17:10

Some people are going to go on and up their prices to $50k a session or whatever they want to do, right? I don't think that’s necessarily the most fair thing to do. Whatever. People do what they want. People pay for all kinds of things so who am I to judge, right? People pay $40,000 for a couch. People pay all kinds of money for all kinds of things. People can choose what they want to spend their money on. They can choose what they do with themselves, but I feel like, yes, there’s a lot out there in the coaching industry around charging whatever you want and this, that, and the other, and I disagree. I think, yes, coaching is expensive because it’s kind of a luxury product in a way, right? This is not a necessity. I mean, it would be great if it was. I think therapy should be a necessity but coaching sometimes is really helping me to get to a different level or to learn something that can enhance your life.

18:05

I think a lot of it, yes, I feel like sexuality is an amazing thing. It can totally transform people when they get able to connect to themselves and have that confidence, but it is a luxury in a way.

And so, the other thing I’m gonna go back to that stood out to me about the cult thing is this is what can happen in those cult-like environments, and this is what can happen also I see sometimes in the coaching industry that’s problematic is this is a lot of it is selling the illusion of hope, right? Selling that illusion of hope. This is a lot of what we’re taught, but I think that what really speaks for what works is not necessarily just sharing your best success stories from your best clients, but the reality of all the things people accomplish. Some people go from having zero sensation to having orgasms for the first time in their lives. A lot of people do. Most people make a lot of steps on their journey to self-love, to accepting themselves how they are, to accepting their relationships as they are, to growing and being better and having more connection, all of that.

19:09

And so, I think that these are tangible things, and the same way with the business world, right? When you're coaching someone around business, it’s like creating that foundation, and oftentimes, when you look back at the past however much you’ve spent together, huge shifts have been happening in these people’s lives. A lot of them are monetary; some of them aren't. And so, I think that’s one of the things about disclaimers other than it’s important to share as a coach or as a person supporting people in this way is the reality: not everyone gets the same result, right? But what I do know is that when you are in my presence, you are gonna get love, you are gonna get presence, you are gonna get attention, and you are gonna get my best at helping you somatically move through whatever you're experiencing in the moment which that, in the end, is what’s gonna help you to be a more resourced human which helps you to do whatever it is you're doing in the world with more care and more capacity and that is some important.

20:02

I mean, I don't think that you can put a better price point on that, and I also think that being able to market in a way that feels good is important and that feels aligned with my values is important. And so, actually it’s not easy, right? It’s not easy. This is something I’ve been grappling with for the past two years, and there are some wonderful mentors that have been helping me navigate this stuff, people like Rachael Maddox, people like Kelly Diels, people out there that are doing good feminist marketing that is a different way. And so, this is why I’ve been so passionate to create something different and to teach something different because I know, ugh, if I’d only learned these things back when I was first starting my business, I would have been saved a lot of burnout, a lot of pain, a lot of self-doubt, and it’s not easy to build a business. It’s not easy to be an entrepreneur. Our systems are set up to support the big guys, (the big corporations, the people with money) and being a small business or an entrepreneur has its set of challenges.

21:00

And so, you’ve got to be real smart so that you don't burnout and that you continue doing your work in a way that feels good and doing it in a way that you can make money because that’s a big important part of it, right? There are so many people doing good healing work out there that aren’t getting what they need in return.

So, what I really strive to do is weave together what is -- I strive to teach my students and my clients that there’s a way to do things that are in alignment, and you don't have to prey on psychological marketing and doing things in a way that doesn't feel good to you.

Looking back now, like I mentioned, some of the trainings that I did, they do a lot -- some of the ones that I did from big-name people that have millions and millions of dollars sold, they encourage some tactics that I don’t feel that are great, you know, around encouraging people to get a second mortgage or to take out a loan. Those are the kind of predatory tactics that I don't believe in, right?

22:03

I want the people that are working with me to feel good about spending the money and not put themselves in a place of extreme debt or this is why I offer scholarships and other things to support people because that, to me, is predatory and wrong.

My apologies for the background noise, but I had to get this -- and I forgot I was doing laundry, my kid’s got a playdate upstairs screaming around, so [Laughs] that’s the real world.

So, anyways, just to kind of recap, I know I was riffing a lot on this episode because I’m very passionate about this, but just to kind of recap kind of the correlation that I see between some of this cult-like behavior, even just the language people use and the way that they speak about certain things is something to be aware of, right? And how maybe there are elements of good in those things, but also really being discerning about what is truly going to serve you and what’s feeling good and really trusting your gut. If anyone’s pressuring you or pushing you or, you know, making you feel too uncomfortable then that’s something to think about and really feel what’s beneath that.

23:09

Secondly, is that there are ways to market your business and do it in a way that is more trauma-informed, to do sales in a more consensual way so that people are really making the decisions from a place of alignment versus a place of coercion, and also, knowing that this is important when you are working with clients and when you're serving people is that you be an example of what you believe in and what’s true to your values, and so, those are the things that I strive to do, and I know I make a ton of mistakes because I’m a privileged white woman and I’m cis and I’m straight and I’m all these things that are privileged and I haven't earned a lot of this and I know that and I’m doing a lot of work to recondition all of those things too. It’s just a very -- it’s not easy. It’s complex and complicated, but it’s something I’m committed to so I will show up again and again for it.

23:59

So, I think, again, knowing that a good coach is gonna help you to grow, is not gonna push you to the point where you feel like you're going beyond what feels comfortable, and that’s the beauty of trauma-informed care, right? It’s like you dip into difficulty, go back to where it feels good. You go with the slowest part of you. You do what’s doable. You make those steps in a doable way, and I think when you can call in people in a loving and aligned way, then you don't have to use those predatory marketing tactics. You don't have to get someone holed up in a room for five days without a break and try to break them down mentally. Now, I get it. A lot of these things work and that’s why people use them, right? And the intention is that these people change and have a positive change in their lives, yes, but there are ways to do it that aren’t so painful, that don't involve those types of things.

So, I’m just giving you this episode to share about that’s why I created something different and that’s what I love about the Come Alive Coven and creating business tactics that create a business from a strong foundation without using these outdated things that I think need to be done with, just reinforcing the patriarchal culture that I’m not for.

25:05

So, if this aligns with you and you're curious to learn more, you can go to www.amandatesta.com/comealive and learn more about it.

I’d love, too, to hear your thoughts on this. If you’re a coach or you're in the coaching industry or if you're seeing some of the things that are happening out there that you don't feel good about, I’d love to know your opinion. So, please do send me a DM on Instagram. You can DM me @abtesta. I’d love to know your thoughts. How are you navigating this, and how do you want to show up in a way that’s different? What are the things that you feel like need to be said that you maybe are afraid to say because a lot of these things I’ve been afraid to say, and now I’m like, “You know what? I’m just gonna say what’s true,” because maybe I’m gonna mess it up, maybe I’m gonna bumble along, but, to me, it feels important to share what’s on my heart and why I do things differently and why I think it’s important to do things differently.

I so appreciate you for listening. Thank you for being here, and we will look forward to seeing you next time.

[1:30] - Why Dr. Anne’s Passionate About Her Work

[7:23] - How Being in Relationship with Someone with ED Affects Partners

[10:46] - Steps Towards Solving the Problem

[12:33] - How Dr. Anne Works to Treat Erectile Dysfunction

[23:02] - How to Support Your Partner Through Erectile Dysfunction

[27:44] - How to Work With Dr. Anne

[32:06] - Female Hormonal Changes

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Dr. Anne is a board-certified physician with over 20 years of clinical experience. A physician -entrepreneur, and innovator who thinks outside the box, Dr. Anne is a recognized leader in men’s health, particularly in regenerative medicine. She is passionate about healing the cause of male sexual dysfunction, not just masking the symptoms, and shares her wisdom to teach doctors conferences worldwide. She evaluates and supports each patient from beginning to end to accomplish their individual goals, recapture their vitality, age gracefully, and live their best life.

When addressed early, sexual dysfunction can be treated and reversed. Dr. Anne is a firm believer that sexuality is vital to a high quality of life at any age, but especially after 50.

* Dr. Anne’s Website: https://truongrehab.com/

* Modern Man Club: https://truongrehab.com/the-modern-man-club/ or www.mensexualityclub.com

* Erectile Dysfunction Booklet Download (scroll to bottom): https://truongrehab.com/male-sexual-health/

* Bio-identical Hormone Replacement Therapy: https://truongrehab.com/bio-identical-hormone-replacement/

Want more support? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda here.

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE [242]: with Dr. Anne Truong

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

If you are wanting to say goodbye to erectile dysfunction challenges in your relationship and to discover proven ways to find more sexual vitality, then you're gonna love this podcast episode. I am your host, Amanda Testa, and I am so excited, today, because I am going to be talking with Dr. Anne Truong. She’s a board-certified physician with over 20 years of clinical experience who’s successfully treated over 7,000 men with erectile dysfunction. She also works with women as well. She is passionate about healing the cause of sexual dysfunction, and not just masking symptoms. So, she’s really passionate about sharing education so that we can know how to have a better quality of life.

So, welcome! Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Truong.

1:01

Dr. Anne Truong: Well, thank you! Thank you, Amanda. I’ve been looking forward to us touching base within the past few months, and we’re finally here so I’m excited to collaborate and share our message together.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and I appreciate that because something I hear often from my clients is it can be really challenging if you're with a male partner and they’re struggling with erectile dysfunction because, you know, obviously that’s a tender topic. I’m curious why this is such a passion for you. Just in general, I’m curious.

Dr. Anne Truong: Well, it’s a passion for me because I’ve always been involved in looking at treating a condition in a holistic comprehensive manner. I’ve been a doctor -- oh, my gosh, I’m pretty old -- since 1997, a board-certified doctor, and 1997 is, like, 25 years, and I was trained as an interventional pain management doctor, so I was doing cortisol injections into the body and giving people cortisol or steroids, and I was giving people pain medication or anti-inflammatories.

2:03

What I noticed was that I was really not helping my patient long term. I was really padding the problem and Band-Aid the problem. They kept coming back, and they weren't getting better long term, and I’ve always been a person that’s like let’s try to find other solutions that will be long term for you, and I really look at the cause. So, I started learning to do acupuncture and natural therapy, supplements, and I started learning how to do osteopathic manipulation. I’m a medical MD (I’m not a DO), so I started learning that. And then I started learning about prolotherapy and then, eventually, the platelet-rich plasma (PRP) and then stem cell therapy.

So, what I was alluding to is that I’ve always had a passion of finding the root cause of the problem and treating a problem that lasts a long time. I don’t want to pad things. So, because I’m pain-management trained, I’ve been doing treatment on the joints and getting people back to functioning with stem cell therapy. Then in 2014 started doing treatment more for sexuality and aesthetic stem cell therapy.

3:06

And I really enjoyed that because what I realized is that, you know, it’s easy to talk to a doctor when you have knee pain or back pain or shoulder pain, but it’s so uncomfortable to talk about such a private subject such as erectile dysfunction or even a female having difficulty with intimacy because women were trained and raised when we were little that that’s not something we talk about, that’s it’s taboo, and all those culture layers that layer into the guilt that we feel when we talk about something like that. But I’m thinking, all right, well, we’re born because of the sexuality.

Amanda Testa: Right. Yes.

Dr. Anne Truong: We’re here, and it’s an integral part of what we do. We enjoy it, and that’s what bonds people together. That’s what bonds partners together is part of intimacy, and it’s such an integral part of our life. But yet, why is it taboo?

4:00

So, that really interests me, and I want to bring a subject that is taboo, that’s in the closet more out into the open. I know that it is so common because there was a study that was done in, actually, 1999, a review, that there were 30 million men living with ED, and that’s just from a questionnaire with extrapolation. That was in 1999, and now, with COVID, we know there’s a lot more, and that may even double that. So, we don't know exactly how many numbers there are for women. I will say probably the same as well. It’s just that, with women, it’s a little bit harder to tell because she doesn't have a genital that you can see physical changes on, and just being forward in that I see women not being aware that what they have changes in the way they feel during intimacy that they're not correlating that to, “Oh, you know, it’s my hormone change. I’m getting older. There are changes down there.”

5:00

They actually blame themselves. They say, “Well, maybe something’s wrong with me.” They blame themselves for some other thing versus a man. He could see whether his manhood is working well or not as well.

So, that’s why it’s passionate for me because I feel there's something that is so integral to what we do, but yet, there’s very little known. There’s a lot of myth, a lot of gimmicks out there, and there’s not a lot of real, true, research-based, evidence-based treatment for this other than, “Hey! Take the little blue pill. Take this pill.” There’s actually a pill for a woman now for sexual arousal. I tried, and I didn't feel anything. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Right.

Dr. Anne Truong: But, you know, there’s a pill for women as well. So, I feel like we’re being manipulated by pharma. We’re being manipulated by social media thinking, “Hey, there’s a pill to fix you!” It’s like there’s no pill -- I’ve been doing pain management for 25 years. There’s no pill to fix your pain. You have to treat the source of your pain and rehabilitate the condition.

6:06

The same thing with sexuality. You have to find out the cause of it and rehabilitate it, and I see sexuality as, like, weight loss. You know, once you treat it, you have to maintain the good habit that you learned to maintain the optimal function.

Amanda Testa: Yes, that makes so much sense because, usually, everything is connected, and if we’re having a problem in one area, there are, usually, many things going on, right? So, it’s not always just like, “Well, I need this one thing fixed.” It’s more -- I appreciate how you have that more holistic approach to kind of solving the problem. Yeah.

Dr. Anne Truong: Right. Right. But, you know, like I said, when you have knee pain, most likely your ankles and your hips are gonna be dysfunctional as well.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Dr. Anne Truong: It’s not just the knee pain that’s the problem. It’s above and below, and you have to address the whole entire leg and back. It’s the same thing with sexuality. Things are tied together. “Oh, you fixed this organ. Everything’s gonna do okay.”

7:02

When I approach sexuality, I approach it as a foundation. You start fixing the foundation, and then you start fixing lifestyle factors and diet and exercise.

Amanda Testa: Yes, so key. I’m curious, too, because I know a lot of my listeners might be in a relationship with someone with erectile dysfunction, and I’m curious. How does that affect partners?

Dr. Anne Truong: Right. So, that’s something common that I hear all the time from my patients. Sometimes women that come in are thinking there’s something wrong with them when their partner has ED because they're thinking, “Well, it’s my fault he’s not getting aroused by me. Maybe I’m doing something wrong. There’s something wrong with me. When we’re together, he’s not turned on. There’s something wrong with me! Fix me!” Then the guy comes in -- this is even in the same relationship -- [Laughs] I treat a lot of husbands and wives. The husband comes in and says, “There’s something wrong with me! I have ED. I love my wife. I’m attracted to her, and I just cannot get it to be functional,” and he’s embarrassed to talk to her, and she’s embarrassed to approach him because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings.

8:13

They both love each other, and you know what happens? They turn away from each other because they don't want to approach a subject that is so sensitive that got, maybe, misinterpreted and then hurt each other.

So, what I always say is, “You know what? Know that your partner knows there’s something wrong, okay?” Not that something is wrong, but there’s something going on. Just be honest and be curious and be transparent. Be honest, be curious, and be transparent because if your partner knows that you are having difficulty, she will support you, and she will say, “Hallelujah! I’m so glad you brought it up, and I’m here to help you as much as you need.”

So, I’ve never seen a partner that said, “Well, you're having problems? That’s your problem. Goodbye,” you know? It’s really more like, “Hallelujah! Oh, my god, I’m so glad you talked about it. Let’s move forward from here. How can I be supportive of you?”

9:10

How you approach it as for even a female noticing that, yeah, a man has difficulty is you just approach it and just be transparent. “I’ve noticed this, and I want to be supportive of you. Can we have a discussion of what’s going on that we can help move forward from this?” You want to present it as open and showing that you’re supportive of your partner and you both want to move on forward together in a supportive relationship and try to resolve this problem.

Believe it or not, if a man that has ED has a supportive partner, that’s actually therapeutic. That’s actually 30% to help him get better because, emotionally, he knows that she’s there for him and that he can focus on the physical part that is causing the ED.

10:05

Ninety percent of ED is physical, and ten percent is psychological meaning performance anxiety and emotional and trauma, but what we do know from research is that a supportive partner can be therapeutic for a man undergoing ED.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, and that makes sense because I think it’s so common, right? It’s such a common thing, and there’s so much shame around it, I feel like, a lot of times. Like you say, it’s a tender topic, and so, you want to make sure that you approach it with care and support. I’m wondering, too, you know, say someone’s listening, and they're like, “I would love if we could talk about this.” What would be some steps we could take? How would we go about moving towards solving the problem?

Dr. Anne Truong: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Anne Truong: Yeah, and there are options. There are treatments for a man with ED and, like I said, it doesn't have to be with a blue pill (the Viagra or Cialis).

11:01

I was talking to a patient of mine yesterday, and he was saying that he had ED for, like, a year. He went to see a doctor first, and they gave him Viagra before any blood work, before any type of question to what’s his lifestyle, what his sleep is. “Here, here’s Viagra.” He took Viagra, and it didn't really help him. He came back, and the doctor gave him an injection for him to do to help him with his ED, and he’s like, “I’m not injecting myself down there!”

Then, the next thing was the doctor says, “Well, maybe you should consider a penile implant.” During this whole time, there was no blood work that was done to see if maybe he has diabetes, maybe he has high cholesterol, maybe he had inflammatory markers in his blood, maybe he had low testosterone that is contributing to his ED. So, that’s why he came to see me because he was, I guess, insightful enough to know that, “I probably need to seek another option before I get surgery down there.”

12:07

He’s only had ED for a year. So, it almost seems like we’re going in the same direction with surgery to solve this problem, kind of like knee replacement, hip replacement.

Amanda Testa: Right. That should be the last resort, right?

Dr. Anne Truong: Yeah! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: There are so many first easier steps, right?

Dr. Anne Truong: Yes, yes.

Amanda Testa: Well, I’m wondering if you could share a little bit, Dr. Truong, about how your approach is different and how you work with them to solve the ED?

Dr. Anne Truong: Right, right. So, when I evaluate a man with ED, I do blood work first, you know? We spend an hour with him in a consultation, but we order the blood work first, so when he comes and sees me, I know what’s going on in his body. We do a total whole panel. Our approach is not subjective; it’s objective. I look at the hormones from the head all the way down to the toe.

13:01

I look at whether he’s at blood sugar, his liver. I look at his cholesterol, inflammatory markers. I also look at whether he’s creating enough growth hormone or not (the hormone that’s released in the body), and I also look at blood clotting factors as well. That will give me an idea, internally, of what’s going on with the men. Interestingly, the first symptom of a man showing ED is that he is a diabetic. So, but that’s the first time somebody will say, “Oh, you're a diabetic,” when he starts having symptoms of ED.

So, my approach is to start looking internally at what’s going on and questioning the patient about their lifestyle and what they're doing. “How’s your stress factor? How is your sleep? Are you smoking? Are you drinking alcohol? How much alcohol?” I assess for whether they have tried other medications in the past or not if they have tried doing exercise at all.

14:06

Are they doing stress management? Do they meditate? All those factors -- if you're not sleeping enough, if you're not exercising enough, you have a poor diet, you eat processed food and fast food and sodas and so forth, all of that inflammation and, therefore, decreased blood flow is related to the cause of ED, a decreased blood flow.

Simple things such as sleep, smoking, alcohol. (I’m saying you can drink alcohol. You shouldn't drink more than 10 drinks a week, cumulative.) High stress can actually produce more cortisol which, then, decreases your testosterone hormone. You’re not sleeping. When you're not sleeping, your body is not healing, mentally and physically. That will decrease your testosterone level as well, other hormone levels, and increase cortisol. Just simple things like that -- or diet and whether he exercises or not.

15:03

We put all that information together, and then I do a test called a penile doppler ultrasound where I look at the blood flow down there to see how the blood flow is and, oftentimes, those tests are actually good, and then those are all the collective objective data that we get, and then we come up with a treatment plan.

I have a multi-modality approach treatment plan which is not just addressing one thing. We address multiple factors. One of the things that we’re doing to restore increased blood flow, and so, we do Hormone Replacement Therapy with testosterone, we do stem cell therapy to increase more blood flow, and then we also do shockwave therapy which uses soundwave technology to, again, increase blood flow down there, and then supplements.

The main thing I stress to every patient is lifestyle factors such as what you're eating. I recommend a Mediterranean diet and decrease processed food.

16:03

Then, I recommend three times a week at least one hour of exercise. I recommend a high-intensity interval, but just even walking and going to the gym and doing some weight because, for a man, if he does some weight, his muscle will help produce more testosterone as well. Then, simple things such as sleep. You need to sleep seven hours a night because that’s how your body heals, and your body produces more testosterone as well. If you're smoking, you’ve got to stop. If you're smoking, that’s a dead ringer for your sex life because it’s gonna decrease blood flow down there, some irreversibly, but some if you stop smoking, it may be reversable as well.

And then a lot of alcohol (I’m talking about more than 14 drinks in a week) is inflammatory. Just simple things like that along with the treatment that we have with hormones, shock waves, stem cell therapy, and supplements and just changing lifestyle, all that will reverse any man that has ED.

17:03

So, that’s treating from the inside out but also treating the blood flow problem as well, too. Now, I want to mention, also, that Viagra is not treating your ED, all right? Listeners here, get well! Viagra is padding the symptoms. It does not treat ED. A lot of my men come and think, “Oh, I’m on Viagra. My ED is treated.” No! Think of Viagra almost like as a drug, like a pain medicine like a Percocet or an Oxycontin because it gives you short-term relief, but in the long term, you're in the black hole. Why is that? Because Viagra makes your body dependent upon the medication for you to get an erection, all right? Your body is used to having it in the system to get an erection, and when you take Viagra, you’re hijacking, you’re giving up your natural response to create an erection in your body.

18:01

It’s like going to the gym and having a robot do bicep pull-ups for you. You're not doing the work. A machine is doing the work for you. So, what happens is you're not gonna get any benefit from it, and what we see is that, with Viagra, only 70% of men will respond to Viagra, but then after about three to five years, you don't respond to the medication, or the medication doesn't work as well to help you with the erections because the root cause of the problem is still there. The problem is maybe you’re diabetic, maybe you have high blood pressure, maybe you have high cholesterol, maybe you're not sleeping or exercising, or you have a poor diet or you're drinking more, maybe you're still smoking. All those causes are not addressed, so that’s why your ED gets worse, right? Because if you're not addressing the problem, it just erodes. I call it, if you let ED go, it’s like a puss that gets worse and worse and worse. Then, your Viagra is just a little Band-Aid covering that puss. You’re not treating the reason for that infection at all. You just put a Band-Aid on and go, “Okay, well, it looks a little bit better now. I can go on with my life,” but one of these days, that puss is gonna burst, and that Band-Aid of Viagra is not gonna be able to cover it.

19:15

So, I equate it to having a festering infection that, if you don't treat the root cause, it’s only gonna get worse and go deeper, and it may cause more problems than you think. Simple things, I treat men that have ED the first year to men that have ED 17 years, and he’s 80 years old, and I’m able to restore their function because we’re not only doing treatment to restore blood flow, but we’re also instituting lifestyle changes that will decrease inflammation, for one thing, but also restore more blood flow, not only to the genital area, but also the heart as well because when a man has better sexual function, it equates to better health function because all the risk factors for sexual dysfunction are the same as heart disease as well.

20:10

So, you're not only improving your sex life, you're also improving your heart health at the same time and, therefore, longevity and, really, wellness to that.

Then, one of the things that the women that are listening -- simple things that your partner can do to help with ED, like I just mentioned. I’m gonna reiterate it again because I’m so passionate about it. There’s a thing: you don't know what you don't know, but now you know you can do it. What’s one thing?

Start with if he’s smoking, he needs to stop because smoking is just a strangler for your ED.

Number two: getting enough sleep, getting at least six to seven hours of sleep.

Number three: what type of diet is he on? Is he eating a hamburger, French fries, and chips, and drinking Coke and Sprite every day? Well, no, that’s not good. Get him on a Mediterranean diet.

21:01

Number four: alcohol. I mean, I enjoy a glass of wine. I’m a bourbon girl myself. [Laughs] But, you know, there’s a certain limit. It’s moderation as well. You know, stay in the realm of 14 drinks or less.

Number five: Stress. Stress is a big factor. We all have stress, but it’s how you react to stress. Stress is not to you; it’s how you’re reacting to the situation that causes you stress. So, you can control stress because of how you react to the circumstance. That’s how you control your stress. Stress management like helping him realize that if he’s stressed, maybe he needs to do more meditation, more exercise to get his mind off of that.

Just do simple things that you can tweak, and I have seen patients, literally, all he did was just cut off bread, cut off sodas in his diet, and he started seeing, “Hey, you know what? I’m functioning a little bit better. I’m sleeping better. I have more energy,” just by making those little tweaks that go a long way.

22:10

What I mentioned before, the five to six levers that are really gonna turn the needle that you can do on your own before you go see the doctor. The man may see his ED actually reverse by just doing all those.

Amanda Testa: That’s huge, and I think, too, like you say, it’s, overall, vitality and wellbeing, and I truly think that our sexual energy is our life-force energy, and the more that we can have that health, it affects every part of us, right? So, like you say, better sexual, better blood flow, better heart health, all of the things.

I’m wondering, too, because I know you mentioned when you also are kind of looking at all these different factors, when it comes to being supportive of your partner, what else could you do to be supportive as they are looking for solutions or what else can they do to be supportive?

23:02

Dr. Anne Truong: Right. What they could do is to find resources for their partner. Find resources for their partner, but, before you do that, you have to have a conversation first because if the man’s not buying -- the man, first, has got to realize he has a problem, too, but you work through it together, and you work through it together, and you tell him, “Whatever it is, I’m right here with you. I am going on this journey with you, okay? We’re gonna go into it hand-in-hand together. Whatever support you need, I’m there.” All right? That’s one thing. He needs to know that you're there because all the men I see -- men love to be a provider. They want to protect, they want to provide, and they love their partner very, very much, and all the guys that I see want to get themselves better to please their partner, physically and mentally.

Oftentimes, I wish the woman would hear this, right? The woman sometimes doesn't hear how much their partner cares about them. It’s because nobody is talking.

24:03

So, once you open up that dialogue, that, “Hey, I’m here for you. Whatever you need, I’m supportive of you. Let’s go on this journey together. Let’s move forward together for this because --,” you have to realize that intimate sexuality is important in a relationship. Yes, you can still love each other without having sex in the bedroom, but when you do have that physical connection, it enhances it, right? So, I’m not saying every couple needs to have the physical stuff, but if you do have that component, it accentuates it. That’s what brought you together with that person in the first place, right?

Amanda Testa: Right.

Dr. Anne Truong: So, I think it’s an emotional and physical connection. The other thing is help him find the correct resources for him to do, like the five things I mentioned: sleep, exercise, diet, smoking, alcohol. Those are the five things I mentioned. Start with that!

25:01

Say, “Honey, you know what? Let’s go work out together! Let’s go to the gym together. Let’s go walking.” Have him go walking three times a week, and if he’s stressed, “Okay, let’s do something together. Let’s get you out of this stressful environment, and let’s go watch a movie.” Oftentimes, removing him from that stress that is causing him to stress will help a lot, but the number one thing is show your support and show him that you're there for him.

When a man feels that he’s not functioning sexually, it’s an affront to his manhood. But when he knows that you're supportive of him, that you're not judgmental, then it frees him up of that protective barrier that he has to maintain, and I think that once that happens you can, together, move forward with a lifestyle modification that I talk about with sleep and diet and exercise and smoking and alcohol. Just little things like that will go a long way.

26:06

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I think those are big, and I think, too, like you say, when you're having the conversation, too, it’s like you can think about why is your connection important to you? Why is that something that you're missing? Why is that something that you -- what is it at the root that you really want? Is it the connection? Is it the physicality? Is it the closeness?

A lot of times, from what I see in my clients is, if a partner is struggling, often, they might avoid anything intimate because they're afraid of not being able to perform. It’s also opening your mind of what sex can look like. It doesn't always have to look like a penis in a vagina. There are a million ways you can be together and have intimacy and connect. So, there are still ways that you can be together and support one another as you work through it, right?

Dr. Anne Truong: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: So, I think that’s just important to note, too. I think sometimes it’s easy to just totally avoid the situation and be like, “Oh, we just won't even go there at all,” but I think the more you can, just be supportive and know you can still have a lot of fun together no matter what. [Laughs]

27:03

Dr. Anne Truong: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly, and give him supportive space, whether he’s working through it -- but I will tell you, the partner involvement and support are very important to a man struggling with ED. If a partner is supportive, he’s a third of the way better already. I see that all the time.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Dr. Anne Truong: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too, because I know you work with people all over, so if people are wanting to learn more about your clinic and how they can work with you, what’s the best way for them to connect and learn more?

Dr. Anne Truong: Right. So, there are two ways to connect with me, and I know that -- like I said, my big passion is education about sexual health because I feel that once you know you can prevent. I talk about, “Well, you know, if you knew that you shouldn't be eating candy right before you go to bed or maybe you don't brush, maybe that will prevent a cavity, but if somebody never told you that, you wouldn't know, right?

28:11

So, knowledge and education are the power for prevention. So, if you know that, “Oh! Okay, so, Dr. Truong said, wow, if I just change my diet and get rid of some sodas and some other things, that will help with my erection? Oh, yeah! I’m doing it.” So, it’s that knowledge.

So, that’s the reason why I started a membership called Modern Man Club, and that is a membership where you can join to be part of my tribe where I coach men in restoring sexual function and not be depended upon medication. And even sometimes those that don’t even need interventional treatment, I teach lifestyle things and things that you can do to increase blood flow.

29:01

They can find out about that at www.mensexualityclub.com, and my website is www.truongrehab.com, and they can also go to my website under membership. They can also check out the membership as well because I know that not everybody can come to my office for treatment, and I can only treat whatever I can. It’s limited by me, but I can definitely help them, coach them through the struggle. Women and men that are listening to this episode, the earlier you start, the better you're gonna get, right? You don't want to wait until you have ten years of ED, you fail Viagra, fail Cialis. At that time, the disease has gone too far or long to be treated with lifestyle changes, but if you start to feel -- let me define what ED is.

30:10

ED can go from having an erection that’s not firm enough all the way to having an erection that is not firm and then you either orgasm early (ejaculation early) all the way to not having any firmness at all. Some people think, “Well, I don't have ED because I can still have an erection.” That’s not the case at all. ED is defined by The World Health Organization as “the inability for a man to have satisfactory sexual relation and penetration.” So, that is what it’s defined as. And so, it’s a broad spectrum.

So, if you have a man that’s noticing that it’s taking longer for him to get firm or he gets firm and he loses it, that’s when it’s time to start doing the lifestyle intervention that is gonna make a greater impact rather than ten years down the road, after you try various medication already.

31:09

That has always been my passion in that it’s like brushing your teeth every day, you know? Why do we brush our teeth every day, right? Why do we go to the dentist twice a year? It’s prevention. Why don't we do the same thing for our sex life? Why don't we institute measures and prevention for our sex life? Not only our sex life, but also for our heart, right, which is also our wellness. If we start kind of doing some of that, it will go a long way.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s so true because we just don't know what we don't know, and we haven't learned a lot about our sexuality coming along, most of us, right? The education out there is poor. So, people are kind of piecing together what they can, and there are opportunities to find what you need. So, yes, thank you again for sharing all this wisdom because I think it’s important to know the options that are out there, and it doesn't always look like what you think. So, I think it’s important to realize what really can entail curing your problems versus just, like, Band-Aiding them like you say.

32:06

Dr. Anne Truong: Yes, yes. I wanted to kind of mention (I know that a lot of your audience is female) that, for the female, the first symptom that -- because female goes through perimenopause which is at the beginning of menopause, and then menopause is defined as going for 12 months without a period. Well, a woman can go through ten years of perimenopause. It can start from about early 40s to about mid-50s. Most women are in menopause by around 55 to 57. I was in menopause at 52, but you can go for a whole decade with it, and, oftentimes, the first symptom that shows up in menopause is your libido. You're just not into it as much as you used to be or it’s just not as pleasurable as it used to be, and it’s not because you're distracted with the kids or you're distracted with work or anything like that, it just, maybe, is a little uncomfortable down there. It’s not lubricated as much.

33:05

So, that’s the first symptom. Oftentimes, women say, “Oh, no, it’s my work. I’m not sleeping enough. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But those are the first symptoms because we don't have a penis like a man that we can tell whether it’s firm or not, right? We just know how we feel, but if you're getting frequent UTIs, that’s also a sign that you're in perimenopause as well, that your hormones are changing. If you have frequent UTIs or that is uncomfortable down there when you have intimacy, just those little subtle things like that. Another thing, too, is your hair falling out. Noticing if your hair is falling out [Laughs] is part of the whole range of --

Amanda Testa: I’m not accepting -- oh, yeah.

Dr. Anne Truong: I know! [Laughs] It’s not your fault because you start to gain weight as well because those are the hormone changes that happen within that whole decade for a woman. Believe me, if you're feeling those changes, your man also has some changes as well, too.

34:05

That, maybe, is a good time to talk to each other around that time because with the age that men start to feel that they may have sexual changes, it’s around the same age. It’s around the early 40s. Early 40s is when they're noticing it at that time, and so, maybe it’s a good time to have a conversation again.

For women, it’s the same thing. Just know that you're in menopause, and just look at your lifestyle (your diet, your exercise, your sleep, your stress, your smoking, your alcohol content). In fact, women drinking alcohol is very toxic for their breast tissue also. Same thing for men with prostate as well because increased alcohol will irritate the prostate, and, not only the prostate, but also the liver as well. But, for a woman, breast cancer is important for that. Just looking at those things that I mention for men doesn't mean that women shouldn't be doing it also. If you start doing that, then you will probably see an improvement in how you feel.

35:11

I’m a big advocate for Hormone Replacement Therapy, for both men and women, once they're in menopause or even perimenopause. When you're in perimenopause, you can get testosterone first because that’s the first hormone that dips for a woman to achieve when you're in perimenopause, but for a man, same thing. His testosterone levels start to dip around age 35.

Amanda Testa: Well, I’m glad that there are so many options that we can use for optimizing these things, and I know you also work with women, and I know we could talk a whole other episode on that. But I know we’re coming to the end of our time together, so I do want to just make sure to direct everyone. I’ll put in the show notes, too, to go to your website because there are all kinds of great resources there as well, and you have a whole booklet you can download on erectile dysfunction and also there’s a whole section on women’s health, and so, all the things are there. There are so many resources, and two, I’m wondering if there are any last words or anything that you feel is really important to share or maybe a question that I didn't ask that you wished I would have asked?

36:16

Dr. Anne Truong: Right, right. I think that the final thought I want to leave for your listeners is that you can have sexual vitality for life. It doesn't necessarily mean because grandma didn't have sex, that means you can't either. Just because grandma didn't know. [Laughs] Nobody told her that you can have sexual vitality and sexual enjoyment for life. You just need to start taking care of yourself now for the longevity. For anti-aging and living longer with better quality of life, just start thinking about Bio-identical Hormone Replacement Therapy.

37:00

For women, you're gonna need that testosterone and that estrogen and progesterone because it’s a game changer for me when I got started on hormones at the age of 52. It was a game changer for my husband as well. I mean, I have seen multiple men and women say that hormones changed their life. They were on the brink of getting a divorce, on a suicidal brink until they started doing hormones, and they're like a whole new different person.

I saw a 37-year-old cop who came to see me, and he was depressed. He had ED. He couldn't sleep. He just felt horrible. He thought there was something wrong with him. We gave him testosterone pellets, and he’s sleeping better, he’s having a better sex life, he’s having a better connection with his girlfriend, he’s more alert, he’s more focused, he’s feeling more strong, he’s able to do his job. Before, he was worried that he may not be able to do his job as a cop.

38:02

For women, I see women that come in and have foggy brains. That’s another thing, too, between the 40s and 50s, you feel like sometimes you're like -- I hear a lot of women say, “I feel like I’m losing my mind. I feel like I’m going crazy.” Well, you're not. Your hormones are dipping, and you're just not remembering that. As for me, when I was 50, I forgot how to drive home from my work to my house. I thought I was going crazy because I got to my car, and I forgot the road back, and, for me, that’s very unusual. This is the road I’ve been driving through for, like, 15 years. That’s what hormones did to me. When I didn't have Hormone Replacement Therapy, I became foggy-brained and, at that time, I was having hot flashes. So, for women, it’s more subtle, and sometimes you don't notice it as much as for men.

38:56

So, my end point is, yes, you can have sexual vitality for life if you start with these recommendations that I mention now, and as you get older, see a Hormone Replacement Therapy doctor, and maybe get supplemented with hormones as well because I think it’s a game changer, and it’s a game changer for quality of life. It’s also to protect your bones, too. It prevents women from getting osteoporosis because I see women getting osteoporosis as a neglect in the healthcare system in helping her get the treatment that she needs. As you and I both know, there’s a disparity in medical treatment for men and women, right? [Laughs]

Actually, I can't hear you.

Amanda Testa: Sorry, I forgot to unmute myself.

Dr. Anne Truong: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I was gonna say thank you so much, again, for sharing your wisdom and for taking the time to come on, and I will, again, share everything in the show notes. I just am looking forward to sharing this, and I know that the listeners -- I just want to thank you, too, for listening. If there’s anything that really hit home that you want to learn more about, I’ll invite you to reach out to Dr. Truong and let her support you. So, thank you, again.

40:09

Dr. Anne Truong: Thank you!

_______

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life.

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Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Hello, I’m Amanda Testa. I’m a trusted healer, coach, and guide who’s served hundreds of clients over the years with masterful skills in coaching, pleasure embodiment, and somatic trauma resolution.

My clients tenderly heal their relationship with their sexuality, shamelessly embrace pleasure, own their sexy confidence, and cultivate deeply connected relationships with my fiercely loving support.

When I not leading transformative sessions, you can find me snuggling my spunky 10 year old, flirting with my sexy hubs, playing in nature, enjoying live music, and having epic conversations about sex with fellow experts on my Find Your Feminine Fire podcast.

After thousands of hours of training in trauma informed sex and relationship coaching, yoni egg coaching, tantric sex coaching, sacred sexuality, energy healing, somatic trauma resolution, and more, I’ve seen time an time again the magic and wisdom of our bodies. We all have the ability to return to our blueprint of health, aliveness, pleasure and sovereignty, and you can too.

With my powerful, loving and gentle support my clients find their desire and pleasure again, find safety and bliss in their bodies, and remember they are enough just as they are.

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EPISODE 241: What It Really Takes To Get What You Want


[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

I was driving in the car yesterday, and Mariah Carey’s “All I Want For Christmas Is You” came on, and it got me thinking. You know that one [Singing]: “All I want for Christmas is you!” But it made me laugh because, you know what? I think we actually want a lot for Christmas. I think we actually want a lot in general, and we just don't know how to connect to it.

So, I wanted to do a podcast on what it really takes to get what you want and forget the holiday. The point is that what I hear and what I see so many times with my clients and my students is that knowing what we want can be challenging, and we often have a ton of wants, a ton of desires, and sometimes we don't know what they are, or we don't want to name them or when we do, we feel like it’s too much. So, these are important things.

So, today, I’m gonna talk about why it’s hard to connect to what we want, what we can do about that, and how to find a way to start to tune in more to your needs and wants on a regular basis. So, this is something else I hear a lot from specifically people that are conditioned as women in this culture. A lot of the times we are taught to give and give and give and make sure everyone else is taken care of and then maybe we’ll take care of ourselves, right? So, “Oh, don’t worry about me. I’m good!” “But what do you want for the holidays?” “Oh, I’m good. Don't worry about me. I don't want anything. Oh, no. I got this. Don't worry about that,” right?

1:01

You might have heard that before coming out of your own mouth or someone that you love’s mouth.

So, I invite you even just to think what is it that you want? Do you want to feel connected in your relationship? Do you want to be able to take a night away and feel that feeling like when you first got together, that you can be together for hours and hours and just can't get enough of each other and just have your partner send you loving texts and talk about how much they love you and want you and how much they can't wait to put you in their mouth and all those delicious fun things. Do you want that kind of relationship where you have that deep connection?

Maybe you want to feel more inspired in your work. Maybe you want to just really feel like, “Ah, I’m excited about what I’m doing. I’m feeling lit up. I’m feeling rewarded. I’m receiving so much from the work that I do, from the people that I work with, whatever it is.” That can be another area, too. I see, a lot of the times with my clients, that work can just feel overwhelming because it’s like the treadmill or maybe you're doing something that’s not really what you want to do but it’s checking off the boxes in some way or maybe it’s that you want to just feel that excitement again and not just feel like you're on a treadmill, constantly, constantly working and giving and never having a break. So, maybe you’ve lost just that spark that made you excited about what you were doing in the first place, and that’s okay, right?

So, this is why we have to tune into what we want, and if there was a magical Santa, if you could really ask for what you want and know, without a doubt, that you would be received, what would you ask for? If you knew, without a doubt, that what you wanted would be given to you, what would you ask for? I think this is such a good time of year to talk about this because this is a time when we’re thinking about what we want, right? We're wrapping up the year as I’m recording this episode. It’s December 2022, and we’re wrapping up a year, and we are kind of reflecting, right? We’re thinking about, “What do I want for next year? What do I want to be different? What is going on? What would I love to see change?” We’re thinking about how we want to be in 2023. I can’t believe it’s almost 2023.

2:04

So, oftentimes, what I see is the reason we’re not getting what we want is because there are parts of us that aren't in alignment with what we want, right? There’s probably part of us that’s like, “Oh, we can't have that,” or, “We don't deserve that,” or, “That’s not realistic. Why are you thinking that? That’s too much. Why would you ask for that?” All of the filters that we put on ourselves, right? All of those parts that are standing in the way of getting what you want. And so, this is why it’s important to know what we want. That’s the first step because it’s a process, right? We need to learn to articulate what we need. We need to be able to put our needs first. This is a huge thing.

I remember the first time I really started doing this work, when I started investing in myself in this way. The first time I ever invested in a coach I remember freaking out. I was like, “Oh, my god. This seems crazy. This is a crazy thing to do. I can't believe I’m investing in myself like this,” and I was so burnt out. This is after my daughter was born, and I was just so disconnected to myself. I had zero clue what I was doing. That is such a huge portal of transformation, when you have a kid. And so, I started working with a coach, and let me just tell you, it truly transformed my life. I mean, just to have that kind of support, there is nothing like it, and that’s one of the things I love about this industry. I love coaching.

I also don't like a lot of things about this industry, and I will be quite vocal that I think a lot of things out there are done really poorly. Maybe sometimes people are really slick marketers, but what they're doing on the inside is not matching what they’ve been preaching or there’s just some schemey stuff out there. So, you just have to trust yourself. But I feel like when you find the right people that are truly good at what they’re doing, it’s so amazing. That is one of the reasons I love this work and I love working with my coaches.

One of the coaches I’ve working with lately is one of my mentors who’s amazing, Rachael Maddox, and I’ve just been having such great sessions with her, and a lot of the things that are coming into the field that I’m hearing from my own clients and that I’m hearing from my own students and what I’m feeling are really similar because there is some truth to what’s going on collectively.

3:03

So, one of the things I’ve learned about that is just having that support. We need support because even if we know everything to do -- right, we often know all the things to do. We know how to take care of ourselves. We know how to do all the things. But sometimes when we’re trying to figure it out for ourselves, we sometimes can't see the forest through the trees if that makes sense, right? We need someone to guide us. And so, that’s why I think it’s so important to be held, and even for me, right? I have a million tools. I know everything to do. But I need someone to hold me in it so I can drop in deeper. We’re not meant to do things alone, and that’s why I think community is so important because when we can be in community where we can share what we want and be celebrated in what we want, it’s powerful because this is not the norm, right? This is not the norm, and that connection is the opposite of isolation.

I was talking to one of my best friends the other day, and she was talking about how she feels so isolated and lonely, and I’m like, you know what? It’s true. If you're a parent, if you're just whoever you are rolling through this crazy world that we’re in, specifically for caregivers, it can feel really challenging. I know as our kids get older, you don't have that same connection with people, right? You're not doing things with the kids as much. They’re going on playdates or they're going to play with their own friends, and even if you have young kids, it’s hard there too because you're trying to keep your kid from eating a rock or poking another stick in some kid’s eye. You're not really connecting with the person that you're with, right? [Laughs] You're parenting, and so, it’s hard to connect there too. And with COVID, that connection piece is hard so when we can find ways to be held and supported, it is so important because that is the opposite of addiction and of isolation is connection and community, right? The opposite of shame is bringing these things to light. They're so important.

And so, one of the reasons I’m bringing this up is because when it comes to getting what we want, there’s a roadmap to follow, and one of the things I love to work with with my clients, one of the tools that I use is an archetypal map.

4:03

I’m gonna talk a little bit about one of the archetypes today. There are seven that I work with, but I’m gonna talk about one today. It’s called the soul seed, and it’s so beautiful, and I really want to invite this in because I think when you can have an understanding of where you want to go, it makes it much easier to get there, right? Also, understanding that, again, we can only go as fast as the slowest part of us wants to go. Another one of my teachers and mentors, Layla Martin, says this, and it’s so true. We can only go as fast as the slowest part of us wants to go. That can be very frustrating, especially in business and relationships because our cognitive brain is like, “I’ve gotta do this, and I want to do this, and I want things to change now, and why can't this be the way I want it, and why can't I be the way I want to be?” Blah de blah de blah. But this is why I’m so passionate about really slowing down and tuning in.

This is one of the reasons, too, why it can be so important to understand the language of your body and kind of have that more somatic work. That’s another thing that I think is really important that we’re gonna do is working with the body to see what’s beneath there. What is beneath there? What is your body telling you that you need to listen to a little bit more, right? I just want to share. I am doing a class on this on December 19th. December 19th at 1:30 PM Mountain Standard Time, I’m gonna be doing a ritual around this because I was doing this ritual this weekend, and it just brings in so much clarity, and I thought, “You know what? I need to share this because it’s so powerful,” and if you have a question around, “What is my next step,” or, “What is the clarity I need,” or, “What is it that I want,” then this is an amazing ritual to help you get there.

5:01

And so, you can join us. Go to amandatesta.com/bizritual, and you can join us in that because this is one of the ways you can learn to be in coherence.

So, when I’m talking about coherence, it’s all the different parts and pieces of you going in the same direction, right? Everything is in alignment, and everything is moving forward at a pace and in a way that feels doable. That is so key. It has to feel doable for all parts of you. So, please join me for that.

I’m gonna go back into a little bit of talking about this archetype because I think it’s so key. When we’re trying to get what we want, this is the number one thing to look at. I love this archetype because it’s all-around worthiness and receptivity, right? When you think about your soul seed, this is the part of you that is totally healthy, totally pure. This is when you were first brought into this universe. It’s the center of everything where you remember how to feel your needs, how to ask for your needs, and how to receive your needs.

6:05

All your needs, the needs for food, for shelter, for clothing, for resources, for money, for care, for attention, for connection, for safety, for belonging, all these needs that we all have, it’s such a powerful thing, right? Developmentally, that’s kind of how we come into the world, right? We come into the world, and we are going to feel hungry, and then we might cry. We cry for our need to be met, and then our caregiver comes and nourishes us or gives us a bottle and then we are fed. So, we can receive that need, and that, throughout our life, of course things change, and things happen. We may or may not have gotten our needs in the way we wanted, and that affects how we show up to what we want, right?

So, when you have the experience of being seen and having your needs met and not just knowing this but feeling it on a visceral level in your felt sense, in your body, that you have been seen, your needs have been met, you’ve been cared for, you’ve been protected, you’ve been provided for and loved in all the ways you’ve needed it, you can sense what you need, you can speak what you need, and you can receive what you need, right?

7:18

On the other hand, when you have the experience of being neglected or not having your needs met, maybe you’ve been unfed or unseen or untended to or excluded, unloved, untouched, left alone. Maybe your caregivers are just too busy, and they didn't have the tools to care for you the way they needed. These are forms of neglect, and it can be physical, or it can also be emotional. And so, as we go through life, those imprints affect the way that we show up. They affect the way we tune into what we want and need. They affect the way we feel deserving and worthy about what we want and need, right? And so, we all, to some degree, can suffer from this, and it shows up in a few ways that I want to talk about.

8:02

So, the first way it shows up is by denying what you need, by just not feeling you have any needs, as I mentioned in the beginning, like, “Oh, I don't need anything.” It’s neglecting yourself, right? And so, it can show up as not knowing what you need or feeling like your needs don't matter or not wanting to put yourself first. “People think it’s selfish if they do that,” or, “If I have too many needs then my partner won't want to be with me anymore. I just don't even know what I need. I’m just ashamed I don't even know what I need. Am I even worthy of having my needs met? I just don't feel like I can ask for that.” All those things, right? I feel like in our culture this is a very martyr type of experience where you don't want to put yourself first, right? You put everyone else first.

The other way that can show up is rigid self-reliance where you meet all your needs yourself, where you don't trust others to show up for you, where you take on way too much (again, this is the martyrdom), not reaching out for support, taking on too much, and this can often feel like it’s hard to trust others.

9:15

“People will let me down. Let me just do it. It’s just easier if I do it. No one can do it as good as me. I always have to do everything anyway. Who can I trust to take care of me? I’ve got to be the one to do it all.”

The other way it can show up, too, is just being defiant. Maybe escapism, that kind of numbing behavior, taboo relationships, food addiction, love addiction, sex addiction, substance addiction, codependence, all these things, right? “I know this is not the healthiest coping mechanism, but I really need it,” or, you know, “There’s nothing wrong with this. So what if I drink three glasses of wine every night?” or, “I’m just really into having seven cups of coffee every day,” or, “I know that this relationship isn't great, but, man, we have some great sex,” or whatever it is, however it’s showing up. That is another way.

10:04

And so, basically, the reason I share all of this is because these are kind of the ways that we are disconnected from our wants and needs. These are the ways that the imprints show up. What we want to do is we want to kind of slow down, rewind, and tune back into what it is that we need. What is it that we need? Then, being able to speak and ask for what we need, and then being able to meet and receive that need, allowing that need to be met. Again, this is a very simplified explanation of this. I work much deeper around this with clients, but I think it can be such a great map to just look into and feel into, like, which one of these do I feel like I resonate with and what can I do about it.

Number one is to slow down and reconnect to what it is that you need and want, right? Oftentimes, our body is letting us know when we want things or when we don't or when we’re moving in a direction that doesn't feel right for us, right? And so, we can learn to tune into that a little bit more.

11:03

The other thing is we often have needs that we aren't even aware of. And so, the more we can explore, the more we can figure out what those are so we actually can meet those needs. I’ll give you an example because I think this is one small way that this can weave a really big transformation.

One of my clients is a busy financial executive. And so, she had a lot on her plate and is really good at taking on a lot, very, very, obviously, successful, and really good at organizing her household, taking care of everything, but also kind of taking on too much and saying yes to all the things, over-giving, over-tending, over-caring. But also, in the bedroom or in her personal relationship, she wasn't really able to speak up for what she wanted and needed, and that was a challenge for her. So, through doing a lot of this work, what she was able to do is kind of tuning in more to what she was needing so she could ask for it. It transformed her relationship, she and her partner had a 180-degree turnaround in the bedroom, as well as, she started saying no to things.

12:09

She sent me a message, and she was like, “Oh, my god. I just told the PTA I’m not gonna do it again next year, and it was the biggest weight off my shoulders, and I am so excited because it’s freed up so much time in my schedule, and I started painting again,” and just the ripple effect from those types of decisions is huge. They're huge, and even just when you can feel that [Exhales], that expansion, that exhale in your body that just changes the way you show up in the world. I’m sure you can relate.

The other thing is, oftentimes, we feel like we have to just be a certain way to get what we want, we have to conform, or we have to contort ourselves to feel like we belong or that we deserve to get what we want. This can also be a way where, like, “Well, I’m bad, so I don't deserve that,” or, “I did this wrong, so now I’m gonna just flagellate myself,” all the ways that shows up.

I was thinking today, I had mentioned this story the other day because I was talking about it with my coach, but it’s really relevant, I think, in this situation because I was remembering the story of growing up in The South in a really conservative environment, and I remember it was a lot of looking extra perfect, right?

13:16

I remember we would get all dolled up for church, and so, we’d have our beautiful, starched dresses, the pleated-cut dresses with the big, lacy, smocked collars and our white tights that were very uncomfortable and those pinchy, white, patent leather shoes, and I remember we would sit and watch Dukes of Hazzard on Saturday nights while my mom would roll our hair in those sponge curlers. (Remember those sponge curlers?) Oh, my gosh, they were uncomfortable to sleep in, but they did give you some beautiful curls. So, we’d wake up, and we’d be beautiful with our curls, and all dressed up so pretty, and then my mom made us stand up in the back of the car on the way to church so we wouldn't get wrinkled. And so, I remember just as kids are, we were probably a little more rambunctious than we needed to be sometimes in church, and my mom would put her arm around us, so it looked like she was giving us a hug, but what she was really doing is she was jabbing her nails into us and being like, “Stop it!” [Laughs]

14:11

And so, I think it’s a funny story, but also, I say that just because a lot of us get that kind of conditioning coming along of you have to look a certain way, you have to be perfect, you have to be this way to be seen as valuable or to feel like you deserve what you want or to get what you want, and, of course, this was not my mother’s intent, by any mean, any way shape or form. It’s just the culture we live in. And so, I just say that because now what I’ve learned through my life is I don't have to have that filter. I can be however I am and know that that is okay. I can be worthy of having my needs met no matter what, and I want to invite that for you as well.

I feel really passionate about this because I just see it so often. Once you can tune into what you want and start to get those needs met, it is revolutionary, and it can show up in a lot of different ways, right?

15:01

In your sex life or in your relationship or in your business, however it is, it all shows up similarly. I’m feeling passionate right now talking about business, too, because, obviously, I’ve had my own business for almost a decade, and prior to that, I was in sales and marketing for my whole career (15+ years), and then I’ve also, for the past three years, been mentoring and coaching over 1,000 students through the VITA™ Coaching Certification. So, I see what happens in people’s minds around business and how it’s so connected to relationships and sexuality. It’s all so connected. So, this is why I’m very passionate about this and why I’m so good at it. I really want to weave in supporting the business owners and creative professionals in this because that’s honestly a lot of the people that come to me - busy moms that have a lot on their plate, busy caregivers, and they want to find that feminine fire like what is it that I want and how do I make the changes in my life so I can have that connected relationship, so that I can have that inspiration in my business and let it expand from there.

16:00

So, please join me for the ritual on the 19th. I would love to see you! Again, you can go to amandatesta.com/bizritual, and in the meantime, what I think would be a great way to tune into what you want, how do you get what you want, how you really get what you want is to start thinking about that. Make it a little point for the next ten days, if you can, to take five minutes whenever you can have the opportunity. Maybe it’s when you go to the bathroom because that’s the only time you have. You take five minutes, and you think about, “What is it that I need? Really, what do I need right now, and can I ask for that need, or can I meet it myself, or if I can't, can I ask for it? Can I let myself really receive it?” It can start small. It can start small. It can start with, “I need to drink a glass of water,” and really enjoying that experience to the fullest. Also, weaving in pleasure along the way because that’s the other part that I think is so key. That’s the other thing around my work is that it can be pleasurable. It doesn't have to be painful. It can be fun. You can find the playfulness and the joy and the silliness in it all because that’s just the best.

17:01

So, I’m gonna leave you with a little mantra, and I’ll invite you to, if you're in a place where you can, relax and close your eyes. If you're driving, just listen. I’ll invite you to just bring your hands to your low belly or just put your awareness on your naval. Maybe just take a few breaths into this space, this place of receptivity where you first received what you needed no matter what. You did receive enough to be here on this earth as you are today, yes. That’s a celebration. And so, maybe, as you bring your awareness to this place, I’ll just invite you to let these words land or you can repeat after me if you’d like: “I am here. I am now. I matter. I am here. I am now. I matter. I am designed to grow and to thrive. I am designed to grow and to thrive. I am worthy of feeding my needs. I am worthy of feeding my needs.”

18:10

Feel into that. Tune into what you need. You deserve it, and I want to see you get what you want.

So, these are the steps that it takes to get what you want, right? Simple yet not easy, but I hope this helped give you a little more understanding of why it can feel so challenging to get what we want and how important it is to really take the time to tune into it because, truly, our bodies, we have this blueprint of health at our core, this original essence within us, and, yes, the imprints of life leave their imprints, the traumas, the challenges, those all leave imprints on us. But the more we can tend to ourselves, that health comes back online. Those parts of us that know what we need, they come back online, and it’s amazing. It’s so amazing.

Again, I know that this sometimes can feel challenging, but just have fun with it. Have fun, and thank you for tuning in. Sending you so much love, and we’ll see you next week.

_______

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Kit Maloney founded Kitara after making the journey from yoni steam skeptic to yoni steam super fan.

She's spent the past twenty years as an advocate, activist, academic, and entrepreneur committed to the advancement of gender equity through women's embodied health and healing.

Kit's first yoni steam was transformative. The gentle yet potent power of that initial yoni steam unlocked a connection to the Divine Feminine she'd been seeking for years. 

Then, after three yoni steams, Kit realized her PMS of menstrual cramps and lower back were simply gone. 

GONE - NO MORE CRAMPS!

She founded Kitara to make safe, easy, and effective in-home yoni steaming accessible worldwide.

Find more and connect with Kit here: 

Kitara’s Website: https://www.kitaralove.com/
Kitara’s Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/bykitara or @bykitara
22-Page Guide to In-Home Yoni Steaming: https://www.kitaralove.com/pages/yoni-steaming-101

Steaming Seats for Purchase: Use code AMANDALOVE for $15 off steaming seats.

Want more support? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda here.

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 240: Kit Maloney with Kit Maloney

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast today. I am so thrilled to have back on the podcast my dear friend and amazing, amazing human, Kit Maloney, and Kit, she and I have known each other for quite some time. We connected, originally, around a program she used to run called The Pleasure Pledge, but Kit has spent over 20 years as an advocate, activist, academic, and entrepreneur, really committed to the advancement of gender equality through women’s embodied health and healing. And that’s what we’re gonna be talking about today, what it means to be embodied around your health and healing, and how to create more intimacy with your own cycle, with your own self and find loving compassionate ways to care for yourself.

1:06

So, welcome, Kit. I’m so glad to have you here!

Kit Maloney: Thank you so much, Amanda! You are one of my very favorite humans and speaking with you on this podcast is one of my very favorite things to do. So, thank you, thank you.

Amanda Testa: Well, one of the things that I think is so amazing is just how dedicated you are to womb health and just creating that intimacy with our bodies and our cycles and all that that entails. One of the things I think is so lovely about all the work that you’ve cultivated over the years is that it’s kind of culminated now in your business, Kitara Love. And so, I would love if, maybe, you would share a little bit of what led you to this iteration of what you're doing and what feels important to share about that now and why this is your calling now?

Kit Maloney: Mm, thank you. Yeah, so, I have a company called Kitara. Our online home is kitaralove.com, and we sell beautifully-designed, expertly-crafted products and services for safe, easy, and effective in-home yoni steaming, and I didn't really know what yoni steaming was five years ago, actually.

2:15

So, I have been in the world of women’s health and wellness, as Amanda said, for over 20 years, was really engaged as a college activist around issues of sexual violence and campus violence. I went and got my master’s degree in Gender and Social Policy. I did a bunch of non-gender-focused entrepreneurial stuff for a long time before realizing that I really wanted to re-engage with the advancement of women and female-bodied people in the world, and about a decade ago, I started a company really focused on women’s sexual pleasure. In that entity, we ran this great program called The Pleasure Pledge which was an invitation to commit to a daily orgasm for 21 days, and that was so fun, and there are many little signs (including that we’re talking about it now) to bring The Pleasure Pledge back at some point in 2023.

3:08

So, stay tuned! [Laughs] Amanda was an early participant and then a very regular guest mentor in several of the years which is very special and important.

Through that work, I really came to see that there’s so much power in our bodies, and to just feel that expansion in a way that I had just no concept of before I started the work. I was very much rooted in a need to heal, heal my own trauma from a couple of very specific moments earlier in my life. Then, I came to see that inviting pleasure in as a real focal point of how to be guided was just life-changing in every aspect of the way and that my orgasm was first and primarily and, potentially, exclusively for me and to guide me on my life purpose. It was running programs around pleasure where I went to a workshop around female ejaculation, and there were a bunch of women talking about yoni steaming. [Laughs]

4:15

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Kit Maloney: And I do love sharing this story because it just really orients us into how counter our culture is from supporting our embodied knowing at times because here I was so in it, right? Like, I’m here! I’m celebrating women’s bodies. I’m celebrating female orgasm. I’m at a female ejaculation workshop, and I’m listening to people talk about yoni steaming, and I am coming close to doing a literal eye roll. I’m definitely doing an internal one, [Laughs] which is just, like, kind of horrifying!

And so, I was driving home from that and was clocking myself for judging other women, particularly judging other women on their healing journey and the different practices that they were sharing that were so important to them.

5:01

I mean, that is not me. And so, I realized that, clearly I had some internal judgment, and that’s what it was all about. And so, I kicked off me going to my first yoni steam within a week and then just having an experience that, truly, was life-changing now that you consider that I’ve started a whole company around it, but even in that moment, just connected to a softness, a power in a softness that had not been part of my consciousness until that moment.

Just the way we talk about the divine feminine we talk about the strength, but the journey with steaming has just dropped me into layer after layer of, like, how fierce that softness can be, and it just doesn't fit into even our languaging, but let alone our culture and how we’re taught about, really, the feminine.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kit Maloney: And, also, that is compassion, right?

6:02

So, compassion has a ferocity to it and a courage to it, a strength, a bravery, and a real softness, too, a gentleness, a love. I say that, and I’m kind of struck by it because, actually, I named Kitara “Kitara” because it was a name that a mentor had kind of gifted to me in a women’s circle, saying that she just felt like this was a name that was important for me to be aware of, that my name matched with an archetype of the goddess of compassion, turned into this beautiful word, Katara. And she shared that with me seven years ago, and, at the time, it felt really resonant in that way that’s also scary, and I was like, “Okay, I love it, and I don't know what to do with it,” but I thought that was really powerful. [Laughs] I’m gonna plant that in the back of my mind and see what comes.

And so, weaving this all together, I had this skepticism. I went and experienced steaming for the first time.

7:02

I had this real connection to that power of the gentleness, to the way in which the steam opens up your body. I had this shedding of sort of the shield that we wear in our culture that we have to in many ways as women and female-bodied people. I just sort of had this moment where that was softened or even released, that armor and saw the possibilities of our strength when we’re actually able to take it off, and then, because of that amazing experience, decided to start steaming more regularly, steamed just two more times, had a menstrual cycle for the first time in my life in my late 30s, that had no physical pain associated with it whatsoever, and then was like, “Whoa, maybe this is just correlated.” Who knows, but it seems like I’d been bleeding for many, many years, and I had never steamed, and then I started steaming and had no pain.

And so, I started studying steaming. I took all the courses I could take from Kelly Garza at Steamy Chick, and I was all in, and I wanted to buy all the products to make it super special and easy and comfortable to do at home and, at the time, couldn't find ones that met my wishes around the beauty and the care that had been infused into making them.

8:18

So, I started Kitara so that, hopefully, other people can steam with more ease and joy in their own homes by using our products.

And so, that was about three years ago, and from there, this messaging around the gentleness and the softness and that our world is craving our compassion, but that there is a strength there that we can summon from within, but we get there through the body (not the brain), and we get there through a gentleness with the body. And sometimes, at least my interpretation of the messaging around this can get that all wonky, and I can still get really harsh with myself, and the not-good-enough voices come up, and the prioritization of optimizing and efficiency and speed, all of that stuff comes through.

9:06

This practice of yoni steaming is just such a reminder that that’s not the way. It’s certainly not the way of the womb. The womb takes her time, and she cycles. There’s absolutely nothing linear there on any plane, you know? We cycle through different versions of our lives, and we cycle monthly, of course, and it’s just multidimensional to an extreme effect, and this strength, (I am somebody who gave birth six months ago) whoa. I’ve always been in reference with the strength of the womb, and [Laughs] you don't have to give birth to know it, but to, then, give birth, you really know it in a different way. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kit Maloney: It’s just amazing, the power there, and just to understand the power that we hold in our pleasure, the power that we hold in our creativity, and, ah, it’s just all there within the body. So, okay. I don't know where I’ve gone to.

10:01

Amanda Testa: I love that so much, and I just want to just point into a couple of the really powerful things that I heard you say about the power and the softness that we hold in our bodies and how often we aren't even -- our culture prevents us from, often, just being with our bodies and giving ourselves that reverence and understanding our cycles and understanding what we need and letting our womb use its wisdom because, I mean, I think we’ve talked about this, but I was having lunch with a friend the other day. We were talking about what were some of those big transition points in your life or the big points that were like, “Whoa,” and, of course, becoming a parent and having a baby is one of those. I, too, remember -- and this is before I started diving into this work, right? Because I started doing this work when my daughter was a baby, but before then, I just really was disconnected. I mean, I think I kept track of my cycles, but that was about it. Not more than I just wanted to make sure I wasn't pregnant if I didn't want to be, right?

11:01

That was about the extent of it, but I do know when I was pregnant -- my husband is in holistic healthcare, so he was really adamant about trying to learn more, and so, we went to this hypno-babies course which blew my mind, right? Because in my course there was a labor and delivery nurse and also just a general MD, and I thought, “Wow, interesting that these people are here,” because, especially the labor and delivery nurse, sees a really common way that a lot of babies are born here and that there’s no wrong way to have a baby, right? The information that I learned about how we are really disconnected from our power and softness and how we aren't thought to trust what we can do, and that’s the beauty of living in the day and age that we do is there are the medical establishments, what we need if we need it, but we don't always need it, and we don't often trust ourselves. We don't trust what our bodies are doing. We need to go to some white dude in a coat to find out what’s up. We are very wise about our own selves when we can just take a moment and tune in.

12:01

Kit Maloney: Exactly. Exactly, and the amount of wisdom that can be unlocked by just tuning in. I just think that’s why this practice has been so important for me. Self-pleasure is so similar, right? It’s a way to tune in, and, at least for me, there’s no way to be distracted in that moment. We can’t actually come into the pleasure, certainly not the depths of it, and definitely not climax, without releasing all of the noise, right? With steaming, it’s something to be really cognizant of, that we need to be present, literally, otherwise it’s not safe. I mean, you won't be aware enough to know about the heat levels. You won't be aware enough to know is it the time of your cycle that’s really good for you to steam or safe to steam (because there are some days where it’s not safe). Primarily those days where you aren't called to steam, those aren't safe either, right? [Laughs] We have sort of the more linear mind of, like, don’t steam while you're bleeding and don't steam on these days if you have a short cycle, don't steam when you're pregnant, da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

13:08

But back to your original point of this, we know. Tune into yourself and see if it’s a good time to steam. See if it’s a good time for self-pleasure. When I was really focused on that work, I had so many people say, “Kit, you know, I just don't feel a safety right now around this,” or, “I don't feel a call. There’s something here.” There was this assumption that I would try to push them through that in a way, and I was like, “No, listen. Okay, great!”

Even within The Pleasure Pledge, so much of our messaging is this is an invitation to a daily orgasm and, really, it was daily orgasm, not daily climax, right? It was an invitation there to consider was that going to be the most high expression of your self-love and self-care that day, and what that looked like was vast.

Amanda Testa: Right.

13:59

Kit Maloney: How you wanted to interpret that was vast. So, yeah, I just jotted down while you were talking one of the things that I used to say, really, when I was more primarily focused on the pleasure piece was there’s purpose in pleasure, and I’ve really come to see that through steaming that there’s purpose in the gentleness, you know?

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Kit Maloney: There’s productivity in it, and a piece of me cringes that I need that sort of gateway thought process, but we live in patriarchal capitalism, and there is a part of me that needs that framework of this is productive. This does have an efficacy to it.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Kit Maloney: We need that framework. We haven’t -- at least I haven't exalted myself completely out of it, right? There’s meaning in it, and it doesn't need to be productive in a way that maybe you’d be paid for it or compensated for it in a capitalistic way, but it’s really productive in terms of allowing yourself to know yourself and to reach your highest potential and to connect to your intuition.

15:07

Yeah, I’m not sure there’s been anything greater in terms of connecting to my intuition than understanding my pleasure and then, now, dropping into the intimacy of the cycle and really seeing what’s there, what’s there in the womb and how is that showing up in my life and how am I showing up for her. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: I think that’s beautiful, and I think, too, like you mention, pleasure is a spectrum to me, and I feel like self-pleasure is a spectrum. It can be enjoying a cup of tea, it could be having a full-body orgasm, anywhere on there. I think it’s, like you say, tuning in. What is nourishment my body’s craving? What is my womb calling for? Maybe I just want to enjoy a steam and be more present with myself and have more time to just be without the expectation, like you say. We put so much pressure on ourselves to constantly be producing, but I think, like you say, in this culture that is designed for productivity, how do we make space to listen to what our womb wants? I ‘d love to hear you share your thoughts around that.

16:04

Kit Maloney: Yeah, how do we make the time. I mean, I think I’ve just revealed one that’s kind of like a hack. [Laughs] As I roll my eyes at using the word “hack,” but it’s like I’ve had to make it a little bit of a trick for myself of just reminding myself, no, this is valuable. There’s actually nothing more valuable than this. There’s no way to better support my productivity than giving myself the nourishment that I’m gonna receive through either a bath (definitely, for me, on the pleasure spectrum), an orgasm (definitely, for me, on the pleasure spectrum), or a steam. And pushing through sending that umpteenth email or doing that 26th thing on my to-do list, actually, that is not going to allow me to do 26 more things tomorrow. [Laughs] It’s actually gonna catapult me into two hours of binging something on Netflix, you know, which, then, really doesn't set me up well either.

17:01

And, yet it is challenging. I mean, I’m saying this from a place of knowing. It feels so much easier. It sometimes can feel like it takes more energy to take a bath than it does to binge watch something, and I think that that’s our cultural built-in -- think about it. That’s such part of our lexicon like, “Oh, I binged this. I binged this.” Usually, it’s TV. Sometimes it’s food or drugs or alcohol. [Laughs] It’s a numbing. It’s a numbing. It’s a numbing. The languaging around the practice is actually really revealing to whether or not it’s gonna be numbing or serving our aliveness, right? And we don't hear people saying, “Oh, yeah, I just had to get in the bath for three hours.” [Laughs] Wouldn't that be awesome? I’m gonna start --

Amanda Testa: I think that’s my favorite thing to do. I love to spend three hours in there and just work or do whatever, right?

Kit Maloney: Exactly. Exactly.

Amanda Testa: It’s like my happy place.

Kit Maloney: Yeah, I mean, wouldn't that be so great if we just sort of created enough space and enough room in our conversations with each other to have that be the more standard thing?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

18:06

Kit Maloney: Not that everything else isn't okay. Of course, it is, but there are just times where I realize I’ve just reached my brink of numbing. I think being a parent, for me, has really shifted that. Like, I know I’m gonna need to have more resources, and so, what can I do to expand those resources and not just keep them stagnant or really deplete them. What are the practices that are gonna help me, and it’s just always dropping into the body, always dropping into the body, and it can actually be scary, I think. It’s us reaching for our highest potential, reaching for our nourishment in a culture that doesn't tend to support that.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Something that just came to me while you were saying this is speaking of, as a parent, needing more resource, needing more time for yourself, and I honestly think that’s one of the things I love about steaming is that I’m totally cool if my kid wants to hang out with me while I’m steaming. I just let her know we’re having quiet time and I’m steaming and I’m loving on my womb, and that feels way more accessible. You're not necessarily gonna want your kid in the room if you're trying to self-pleasure. You're like, “No, I need privacy.”

Kit Maloney: [Laughs]

19:09

Amanda Testa: But it seems like a beautiful way to share that with the next generation, to me, right? It’s so accessible.

Kit Maloney: Yes, yes. I love that. I love that so much. Yes, oh, my gosh, and the way that you're normalizing that is so beautiful and makes me so excited. And I think about that, that my son will grow up, and my hope, my intent is that he will just think that all women steam and just be like, “Oh, your mom doesn't steam? Oh, weird,” you know? [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: “She should talk to my mom!”

Kit Maloney: Yeah! “Why?” you know? [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Right!

Kit Maloney: They're not like, “Why does your mom steam?” “Why doesn't yours?” Just like, “Oh, maybe she wants to know!” [Laughs] I think that that’s so beautiful, and there is something really nice too, you know? Steaming definitely has an overlap with sexuality, and it also has this really beautiful groundedness in being a very physical practice and physical benefits of the menstrual cycle support, and then also has these components of the emotional and spiritual healing as well, but sometimes it’s nice to be able to ebb and flow with that in such a great way because, again, it’s like the trick of the mind.

20:18

Sometimes it’s easier for me to prioritize a practice, actually, if it has a physical tangible result that I’m gonna get.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Kit Maloney: And just having that noticing of, like, wow, that’s where I’m at in terms of my self-care practices. Like, I have an attachment to a result? Okay, noted, and then gets me steaming, and then, inevitably, is likely to connect me to that more emotional and grounded place that it shows up and helps me lead without any pain or cramping. I’ve used it to support my fertility, to support my physical as well as my emotional and spiritual healing from a pregnancy loss, and then my postpartum steaming was just incredible and really profoundly nourishing because, at that time, it is such a claiming to take that time and space and to feel the ways in which -- my husband and the people around me supported that and made sure that I wasn't the one cleaning my herb pot and just allowing myself to receive all that support was really wonderful, and I’m so proud of my body for the way in which I’ve healed.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

21:31

Kit Maloney: I had a pretty intense postpartum hemorrhage, and I think that, once I stopped bleeding and started steaming, I was able to be supported in that recovery through the actual practice of steaming but then, also, some of the messages that this practice brings which is really about the slowing down and the being open to receiving, and that got to a place of survival for me. So, sometimes I think when life brings us back to those moments, there’s just this really beautiful gift in it of being like, “Okay, I have to receive this support, so I’m going to allow myself to.”

22:08

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Kit Maloney: And then we hold onto that later.

Amanda Testa: Oh, that just gave me chills hearing you say that. Mm, about how amazing it can be if all birthing people could have that opportunity to just, like, have that time.

Kit Maloney: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: So amazing, and just -- yes. So, to go back to something you said earlier, because I think this is what a lot of people that are listening might be curious around when it comes to menstrual support, having that more intimacy with your cycle and understanding, “All right, well, I am having a lot of cramps, and I am having a lot of pain. How can steaming help me?” Because I think that, too, is also listening to your body. If you're feeling the call, if this is, like, “Ooh, I’m feeling like something’s perking up in me, and I want to learn more,” maybe just sharing a couple facts around that of, like, how it does help you to have that intimacy with your cycle.

22:59

Kit Maloney: Yeah, so, at least a few things. The intimacy with the cycle comes through in a number of ways. One, steaming helps you have a healthier cycle and to watch that develop is a really profoundly wonderful thing. It’s also highly likely that certain days that you steam are going to be more helpful for the benefit of your physical body. So, often, we want to steam the days before but not immediately before we start to bleed, and then the days immediately after we bleed, then, again, depending on what ailments you're really targeting, sort of shifts the days in the middle there.

But it is a really amazing different way to live through your life if you really know, like, “I’m on this day of my cycle.” Just like we know if it’s Monday or Tuesday, to be like, “Yeah, it’s day three,” and not have to look it up in your calendar or think back, but to have that as part of your lexicon around your body, something just shifts, and you can really connect the dots -- or I have been able to just connect the dots so much more in terms of my energy levels, my cravings. So, it’s just so helpful. It just makes that intuitive voice able to be heard in such a magnified way.

24:20

Really, the way steaming is believed to work -- and we are studying this more and more, but one of the skepticisms and criticisms that we get is that there’s not enough science or that there isn't science, and there are some studies out there that are really great and really encouraging, but, no, there’s not enough study yet, and I welcome it, 100% of anybody I work with in the steaming community welcomes it, and we’re not willing to wait for it, too, right? Those are two separate things.

So, for me, my body, my intuitive knowing is that this is a really helpful practice for me. That’s enough. Can I support that with supporting more studies? Absolutely, and I will continue to do so.

25:01

So, I use this language very intentionally because I don't want to misrepresent. We don't, scientifically, I suppose, (in Western science mind) know why steaming works. How we have come to understand it is that it helps alleviate stagnation in the uterus, and that is the root cause of all of our womb health ailments is that stagnation. We have many organs in the body. Every single one of them has a built-in, genius, natural cleaning component to it. So, we help the skin by adding exfoliation. We do breath work for the lungs. We do detoxes to support the liver’s natural cleanse. Certainly, if there’s any constipation, we eat different foods. We take different things to help to make sure that we have a healthy regular elimination. Yet, when it comes to the uterus, we apparently are told that it’s self-cleansing, it doesn't need anything, you're fine to take hormones, (basically take pills) to not address the root cause but to mitigate the symptoms.

26:06

So, with steaming, we actually are focused on the root cause, and so, the uterus has a built-in (during our bleeding years) capacity to cleanse through the menstrual phase of our cycle. We support that with steaming so that each month we can have as much of a complete cleanse as possible. When we have stagnation, it can build and build and build, and it can build every month on month on month for decades, and when you think about it, of course that’s gonna cause some issues, particularly with cramping. When you think that the uterus has a built-in mechanism not only that it’s cleansing but the tool that it uses to help us cleanse is to cramp, and that is also her genius. She helps us cramp out the stagnation. That, though, is her genius but, of course, it’s not pleasant for us to experience within the body.

So, unfortunately, right now we shame it rather than listen to it or we try to numb it rather than to, again, listen and see how to really help address the root cause and the root issue.

27:08

So, we take the pain meds or we stop the natural bleed by having the pill simulate the bleed and all those things, but steam is just gonna help us to alleviate the stagnation, and that’s why I believe my period shifted from being one that started and ended with brown blood to now starts and ends with bright red blood, and it used to start with -- you know, it was definitely doable, but it was significant enough cramping and lower back pain to need to take an Advil here and there and just certainly know when I was about to bleed.

So, those are some of the physical components to it and the ways it can help with your cycle. When you really think about, if you're listening and you're like, “Oh, yeah, these are my menstrual concerns, (whether it’s fibroids, whether it’s yeast infections, whether it is painful periods, whether it’s long cycles) it’s always gonna come back to an issue of stagnation.

28:03

Amanda Testa: That makes so much sense because I, too -- you know, a lot of the energetic philosophies that I think are so powerful, specifically around the Taoist philosophy around our life force energy is our sexual energy but, also, just in general in Chinese medicine, you want that energy to free flow, and when there is stagnation, that’s when there’s disease or illness or things aren't working like they should and there are practices that we can do.

The other thing I just want to share, because I think this is important to note, is that lineage and tradition and the reason things were passed down is because they work.

Kit Maloney: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Right?

Kit Maloney: Oh, I’m just laughing because it’s just so true! It’s like this is a medicine that has survived -- I mean, it has survived so much. It has survived millennia. It has also survived the burning times. It has survived the onset of patriarchal capitalism, patriarchal religion. It’s survived the Transatlantic slave trade through the amazing leadership of the Black community who is really at the heart of reviving steaming in the US which is so wonderful, and deep gratitude and appreciation there.

29:15

But this is a practice that has existed in all lands of the globe and that we are reminded was one that was used by women who were able to connect with the plants and the elements. And it’s one of the things that I just find so wonderful about steaming. It is so accessible. First of all, all you need is access to water and fire and a heat source, and that’s really it. There’s just something so beautiful in that accessibility.

And then we, of course, offer lots of ways in which to make it that much more comfortable and safe and something that you're gonna be adding some more ceremony to which is a wonderful added benefit, but just to be able to know that you can just heat up some water and get in child’s pose (if you’ve got the able-bodied-ness to do it), and to nurture yourself in your womb space is really profound.

So, anyway, that was a little bit of a roundabout way of just honoring what you're saying. It’s like this has survived because of its efficacy, and, often, that gets missed in the Western understanding of modalities that they didn't come up with.

Amanda Testa: [Laughs] Right, and then that, too, is part of that science is great and, also, we don't need to know. Let me just rephrase that. Science is great and, also, there’s that magic that comes with just knowing and trusting your own body which you don't necessarily need to prove that. Scientific studies take 20+ years and, really, not everything is quantifiable in certain ways, right? It is but it isn't, right?

Kit Maloney: Yeah, I mean, it’s not quantifiable. And then it’s up to us to feel called to things, to learn how to do them safely, to work with maybe people who have had more experience with it who can share and who can help facilitate us into a deeper understanding of how this is most aligned for us with all of those things.

31:07

But it’s also sometimes the way that science approaches practices like steaming, from this deep skepticism and this deep condescension, it’s like, oh, and you all think you've never done anything wrong? [Laughs] I get kind of feisty with it. I’m just like, “First of all, this is benefitting people right now! You're not listening. And second of all, you all have proved many things that you've studied for 20 years, and then we find out on year 32 that this was really messed up.”

Amanda Testa: Right.

Kit Maloney: [Laughs] Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And it comes back to, I think, too, like we start at the beginning with just listening to your body and trusting its wisdom. When you try something, and you get good results, that’s all you need to know, right?

Kit Maloney: That’s it.

Amanda Testa: And it’s a practice of being with what you need and learning what that is and finding the solutions that feel right to you. I truly love this practice so I’m so happy that you were able to come on today and talk more about it because I think it’s something that -- and, honestly, is very easy to get into. Like you say, there’s not a lot of barrier to entry, and so, if you're curious to explore more of this beautiful sacred practice of yoni steaming, then I highly encourage you to reach out to Kit and also just to be open to how it could support you.

32:18

Kit Maloney: Yeah, thank you for that, Amanda. Thank you for helping us share the practice and for being just such a stance for womb health and wisdom. It’s so powerful.

I would just love to invite people to some potentially helpful resources. So, our Instagram is @bykatara and then the website is kataralove.com. A couple things to note there as good starting places is that I do have a 22-page guide to in-home yoni steaming, and it’s entirely free and instantly downloadable. So, that’s a nice place to start. If you're hearing, “Oh, I really resonate with that particular ailment, you can just search for whatever it is to find it and see if it’s still resonating with you and your body and your heart and your womb space.

33:09

And if it is, then I also have a video called How to Yoni Steam at Home Without the Seat. So, that’s a nice entrance point. Then, if you're like me who was doing that without a seat and then got really into the practice and really thought, “Oh, now it’s time,” then, if you would like to purchase a seat from Kitara, we have a discount code for you: AMANDALOVE will take $15 off all of our seats, including those sold with other products and savings bundles so, please, use that to sort of help kick things off for your steaming practice at home! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes, and as this podcast will drop around the holidays in 2022 -- I can’t believe it’s already almost the end of the year -- it’s also a great gift!

Kit Maloney: It really is!

Amanda Testa: If you know someone that you would love -- if it’s yourself or someone that you love who you would like to see give themselves more care and attention, it’s such a great gift.

34:04

Kit Maloney: It’s one of my favorite things of the holidays to see people buying steam products for each other, and we’ve got some great men out there who, over the years, have been really excited to let me know that this was on their woman’s list. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Right. Right.

Kit Maloney: And they're doing it and did they get the right thing and all of those very sweet variations. But, yeah, it’s a great gift. We have gift cards as well, too, if you wanted to get that and just give a nod to a soul sister or a partner and say, “I see you, and I want to support your womb health.”

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Kit Maloney: Yeah, so thank you for that.

Amanda Testa: Well, thank you so much. I’m just wondering if there are any last words you want to share or anything else that feels important before we close?

Kit Maloney: I think I’ll just share that I am sitting with this inquiry and I’m really gonna take it on as a mantra going into the new year of gentleness. How can I be more gentle with myself and others and just ask that over and over again, and there’s such power, there’s such strength, there’s such magic that comes from that.

35:07

So, I am sending my own gentleness out to you, Amanda, and to all those listening, and my wish is that we can just add that softness out into the world and back to ourselves, for sure.

Amanda Testa: Yes, thank you so much. I so just receive all of this goodness in this episode. Thank you, Kit. And, for all of you listening, I would just invite you to maybe just take a breath or two and just notice what was maybe one of the gems you received or something that you're curious to explore more or that you want to try to put into practice for yourself? Thank you so much, again, for being here and for listening, and please share with a friend if you think this would resonate with them, and I’ll look forward to seeing you next week!

_______

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

36:00

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life.

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Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Amanda Testa is a trusted healer, coach, and guide who’s served hundreds of clients over the years with masterful skills in coaching, pleasure embodiment, and somatic trauma resolution.

Her clients tenderly heal their relationship with their sexuality, shamelessly embrace pleasure, own their sexy confidence, and cultivate deeply connected relationships with her fiercely loving support.

When she’s not leading transformative sessions, you can find her snuggling her spunky 10 year old, flirting with her sexy hubs, playing in nature, enjoying live music, and having epic conversations about sex with fellow experts on her Find Your Feminine Fire podcast.

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EPISODE 239: Holiday Libido

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

_______

Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. Today, we’re gonna be diving into how to keep your libido ho-ho-humming over the holidays. Can we just, first of all, talk about how normal it is for our libidos, our desire to fluctuate. It is normal for it to change throughout the day, throughout the month, throughout the year. So, as we deal with all the things that are going on this time of year, I wanted to share some strategies that you can use to keep your pleasure, your desire alive and humming.

So, first of all, I want to talk a little bit about why it’s so hard this time of year.

1:02

Well, first of all, all the stress that we go through during this time of year compounds, right? There are the holidays, extended family, travel, hectic schedules, kids home from school. I mean, even as I say all that I feel like my chest is constricting a little bit and feeling tight. So, I’ll just invite you, no matter what you're feeling around that, maybe just taking a few breaths. Let’s just take three breaths together.

[Three Deep Breaths]

Ah, a nice sigh. Even something that simple can really help to just get your nervous system a little more relaxed, but that is a lot, right? We have a lot going on, a lot on our plates this time of year. Whether or not you have kids, whether or not you work or not, there’s just a lot of stress going on and a lot of expectation.

2:01

I was posting about this the other day because I feel like there are just so many unrealistic expectations that have been portrayed in our conditioning and the advertising and the marketing of the world out there (what we’re supposed to do, what we’re supposed to offer for our families, for ourselves, for whatever it may be), and it’s a lot to live up to, and I think that we can give ourselves permission to say no to that and digest it in a way that feels right to you.

_______

Hey, if you're enjoying the pod and you know you are ready to find your feminine fire again, to feel turned on in your body, in your life, and you want that deeper support, then head on over to amandatesta.com/thegoods and check out ways you can work with me to get that desire back, to reclaim your medicine, your magic, step back into your sexy confidence and pleasure and authentically share your gifts ‘cause you know it’s all connected. Again, that’s amandatesta.com/thegoods. Now, back to the episode.

_______

3:04

So, I want to share a little bit, too, around kind of how our normal cycles work, right? When you're thinking about how we, here in the US, are in the winter. I live in Denver, Colorado, and we are in the winter. This time of year is a time of letting go, right? If we think about our natural tendencies, this is a time of shedding, releasing rest, of renewal. If you think about the trees outside, they might look like all the leaves have fallen off, but all their energy is going inward and down so they can rest and renew. There’s so much going on under the surface. So, during this time of year, oftentimes, there might be a call for more rest and more time being cozy inside, more hermiting up. It’s dark at, like, 4:00 PM. Let’s be honest, who wants to get dolled up and go out? I mean, hello. I used to, but now I feel like my ideal evening, I’m in bed at, like, 8:00 PM reading and snuggling with my loves which I adore.

4:01

So, anyway, I just want to reiterate this to say that, cyclically, it is that time of year to rest and replenish. So, as much as you can, just try to give yourself what you need. Make yourself space and time for downtime and just saying no to the things that aren't a real full-bodied yes, which is easier said than done, but that’s a big part of it is we can feel so pressured to do all the things like this Christmas party and that Christmas party and this thing and this thing and that holiday shindig and this, that, and the other, right? No matter what you’re celebrating over the holidays, there are a lot of invitations, and so, maybe that’s just a time, too, to just look at everything coming in and really feeling in. What’s realistic? Is it really realistic that we’re gonna go to three parties this weekend, right? And if it’s not, then you can kindly say no. You don't even have to give an excuse. You can RSVP no, right? Everybody has a lot going on right now, and the kind thing to do is just RSVP versus saying yes and showing up resentful or irritated or, worse, not show up after you’ve RSVPed “yes,” right?

5:07

I’m from the South, and I’m a big fan of manners and RSVPing, so I do feel like that’s a kind gesture for your host or hostess or whoever’s inviting you to the thing, to let them know whether or not you’ll be there.

I saw a funny meme the other day. It said something like, “It’s much easier to change a no to a yes than a yes to a no,” which is true. So, that’s something to think about when you're looking at this normal cycle that we have in the wintertime and what that means.

Also, understanding that, as I mentioned earlier, our libido, our desire is cyclical, right? It fluctuates throughout the month. It fluctuates hormonally. Even if you're in menopause, we still have natural ebbs and flows. So, this time of year, too, everyone’s different with what their desire level is. We know that all the stress is a killer for our sex drive, for our desire.

6:05

And so, what we can do when we think about, really, what helps us to have more pleasure, to have more desire, there are a few things around that. So, now that we know what’s standing in the way, now, we can kind of work a little bit around what are some strategies that we can use to cope? What are some strategies that we can use to keep our desire alive and to keep our connection with our partners alive?

So, the first thing is, when you think about our desire, there are a couple of things happening. I love this. Emily Nagoski talks about this in her book Come As You Are, and, by the way, she has a new podcast which is awesome. So I just want to shout her out. But when we think about what’s going on, there are usually a couple things at play, right? We have the part of our brain that’s the accelerator (the part that is leaning towards the turn on) and we have the part that is the brake (now, that is the part that is slowing things down).

So, we have, often, a lot of things going on at the same time in our brains, right? There’s a lot happening up there.

7:04

So, with our sexual accelerator, this kind of notices what are all the sexually related things in the environment, right? Things that involve your five senses, maybe any of your beliefs, any of your preconceived notions, and all of the things that kind of need you, more often than not, to feel turned on, right? And so, a lot of the times we get a lot of advice around what we can do to feed that turn on which is important. At the same time, we also have our brake going on, and here’s the thing with the brakes. The brakes are often going on at the same time as the accelerator, and a lot of different things can come up that hit the brakes, right? It could be our body issue. Number one on the list is usually stress, right? Stress is such a drain because it really puts our bodies into more of a state of survival so we’re not moving into those different states that can more easily access pleasure.

8:03

Also thinking negative thoughts to ourselves (things that we are thinking about, what we need to do, maybe any kind of relationship issues going on, any kind of history of trauma or anything of that), these brakes are gonna be keeping you from feeling the turn on. Some of the things are easier to fix than others because some of them require more tending, but sometimes what needs to happen is if we kind of look at the things that have led to a good experience in the past and what led to a bad experience in the past and maybe noticing -- not the best experience you've ever had, but a good experience you’ve had, and maybe what are some of the things that were going on there. What was your physical environment like? What was your personal mood like? What was your partner like? What was going on in the environment? Taking into those things and checking into the context of what was going on because the more you can kind of understand the context of what leads you to be turned on, the more likely you can connect to that in the future.

9:04

I was thinking of an example for myself today. Okay, so, a few weeks ago, my husband and I had an amazing night away. It was epic. Here are some of the reasons why. I was in a clean space that I was able to walk into. I didn't have to clean. I didn't have to do anything. Here’s the beautiful bed. Everything’s clean. There was plenty of time. It was right before the holiday week, so I didn't have a lot on my plate. There was not a lot of stress hanging over my head. I knew my kid was well cared for with a loving guide, a loving caregiver. And so, I was able to really relax. That was huge, right? We don't always have those same kinds of things going on. So, what are the little things I can look at in that example that I can try to recreate?

Number one is that my kid wasn't around. That’s an important thing. It can be sometimes very hard especially for moms and caregivers to relax when there are kids nearby. So, what I say around this is, is there a way that you can maybe take turns taking care of the kids with neighbors? Could you hire a babysitter? Could you get someone to take your kid on an adventure so that you can have some time alone?

10:09

Oftentimes, one of the benefits of the extended family in town is they can take on some of that caregiving role to get it off your plate, right? So, that’s a solution around that.

Number two is not having so much on my plate. Now that, again, is a rarity. [Laughs] But what I can do is realize what are the things that are truly urgent and what are not ‘cause what can often happen is that we are in such an environment and culture of productivity that it really encourages “everything is important.” Oftentimes, that’s not truly the case, right? Is it truly urgent or is this just something that I am feeling is urgent? Because, oftentimes, when you can kind of look at everything on your plate and really prioritize what’s truly most important, it can take some of that stress off of your plate.

So, the reason I’m sharing this is because I’m kind of breaking down what it really takes to digest and think about, okay, here’s the context that invites turn on, and what can I do to recreate that again?

11:07

Same thing that can happen is what are the things that cause turn offs? Well, okay, if I notice there’s a bunch of laundry in my room, then I’m totally not gonna feel turned on because I keep thinking, “Oh, my god. I’ve got to fold that laundry.” So, take the laundry basket and put it somewhere else, right? Shove all the toys under the bed. Hide the stuff that is a turn off. Now, that’s more easier said than done. [Laughs] So, you can do that. That’s an easy thing to do.

Maybe there’s a noise that is irritating in the house, so maybe you put on some nice music so you don't have to hear it, right? There are simple things that you can do to turn the accelerator on. Maybe it’s the holidays and you're not feeling like yourself because maybe you're just eating and drinking too much and you're not taking care of your body the way you usually do. What are some things that you can do to maybe take better care of your body, and then maybe this is an opportunity. Is there a lovely nightgown that I want to put on or a slip or something sexy where I can kind of feel covered up but also have some skin showing which can be fun and tantalizing and then I feel a little more covered up which makes me feel more relaxed, right? There are so many ways to work with it.

12:11

So, that being said, if you want more about this, I really truly love Emily Nagoski’s book, Come As You Are. She goes into a lot more detail. But, really, just kind of noticing, okay, this is normal that all these things are coming up. What can I do to reduce the stress on my plate? What can I say no to? How can I create time and space for the things that are important for me, especially when things seem busy?

All right, so we’ve talked a little bit about why this is hard. We’ve talked a little about honoring our natural rhythms and cycles. We’ve talked a little bit about understanding the accelerators and the brakes, and now I’m gonna talk a little bit more about some of the tips that you can use just on a stress reduction, sensual self-care type of thing because I really truly believe this is so important. We talk about it a lot, but I think some of the things are so simple that they can just seem overrated but they're really not.

13:05

Now, when I’m talking about sensual self-care, these are the things that you do, and it’s not just taking a bath. It’s not all that kind of thing. That can be part of it, but it’s finding the support that helps you to feel grounded, to feel neutral, to give your body this sense of a full-body exhale. I talk about this a lot because these things are really foundational.

I like to break it down into when you're thinking about the physical supports. What are the things, physically, that make you feel good? And so, maybe you can just make a list of those things, right? Well, I love, for example, taking a walk with my dog, maybe putting on some music and listening to a song I like, maybe going to hug my partner for a few minutes, right? These are kind of some of those physical things. What are some things you can do? Connect to those things more often than you think you need to, especially over the holidays and in times of stress, in times when you know there are gonna be things happening that are outside of your usual routine because this can kind of help give you that sense of foundational strength, that groundedness so that if things hit the fan, which they very may will, that you have more patience and resilience to deal with it.

14:13

Secondly, you can think about what are the emotional things that support me? Is there a friend I love to talk to? Do I like to journal? Is there some way I can process my emotion that feels good? Maybe it’s getting on the Zoom with someone that you love or maybe one of these invitations that you’ve gotten that’s a full-bodied yes, you go and have an amazing time connecting with your friends, right? I think that is one of the benefits when we are able to spend time with our community and that connectivity because we are not meant to be alone. We’re not meant to be so siloed. And so, when we can allow ourselves to fully receive that community support and show up as your authentic self, you don't have to pretend you're any other way than you are. I think that’s one of the great things about really good friends and good communities where you can show up, and whatever’s real for you is accepted.

15:04

You don't have to put on a show. You don’t have to act a different way. You don't have to put a bow in, as I always joke. My mom always used to tell me that growing up. I was not a bow type of girl, and she always wanted me to put a bow in. So, every time I would leave the house, she would be like, “Put a bow in!” Like, that’s not who I am. I’m not gonna make you put a bow on, and no one who’s coming in through my house needs to put a bow on unless they, of course, enjoy wearing bows, then by all means wear all the bows that you would like to wear.

Then, finally, too, what are the spiritual supports that support you here? When you're thinking of these sensual self-care things, what are the things that support you spiritually and connecting to those because, again, the more we connect to these things that support us, the more we’re gonna build a strong foundation. You think of a tree that’s like a huge 200-year-old oak tree, a big storm is gonna come through. It’s gonna remain steady. It might move around a little bit, but it’s not gonna fall over. If there is a little, teeny sapling that’s maybe only a year or two old, a big wind might come by and just whip it out from its roots and take it down the lane.

16:07

So, this is what, too, we do when we have a strong foundation. We have roots, we have the ability to sway in the storms and not fall over, and when we have those resources and we’re feeling a little more grounded, then we are not as stressed, and then our nervous system is more apt to default to pleasure when that opportunity arises. See how it’s all connected? It’s always all connected.

So, this brings us back to pleasure. The more that we can feel that resource and that connection to ourselves, that sense of stability, even safety if you can create that for yourself, that is so powerful, and then being able to enjoy the pleasure, right? You can, then, more easily default to those pleasurable states. Once you feel this foundation of stability, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, maybe I do want to give myself a little massage. Maybe I do want to explore a little connectivity with my partner.” So, these are things you can do!

17:06

Then, finally, I want to share a little bit around remaining connected to the people around you because I think this is another big thing. As I mentioned, in relationships, this is another challenging time, especially if, maybe, there’s more strife, if you have extended family and all the things that can come up around that, dealing with kids home if they're usually in school. If you have little ones, then you're used to them being around. So, when they are gone for school and they’ve been in school for ever and then they're finally home for a few weeks, that can feel challenging. So, it’s like what are the strategies that we need to put into place to remain connected when we don't have time like we usually do?

So, again, here’s where I go back to the little things are so powerful. Intentionality is so important. Taking the things that you are already doing and adding a little bit more intention into them. So, for example, when you get up in the morning, instead of just jumping out of the bed and going about your day, can you spend just a minute connecting with your partner, maybe holding their hand, maybe laying your head on their chest, maybe breathing together, maybe just looking at each other and saying, “Hello,” maybe kissing, making love (if that feels doable).

18:14

Really, it’s just finding the ways to connect. That is so important because it can be so easy to not do that, right? This book, The Slight Edge, says, “Easy to do, easy not to do, but the difference in where your destination is gonna be is night and day.” If you wake up every morning and don't touch your partner, imagine how that disconnect grows, and when you have these little connection points throughout the day, these remind you of your connection, of the love you have for one another, of the way it feels to be kind and connected. So, those little simple things, right?

So, when you get up - connecting. Before you go to bed - connecting. Even if you go to bed at different times, you can just make an effort to at least give each other a kiss before bed or hug or some kind of connection. When you go to eat your meals, is it possible that you can eat meals together?

19:00

I think this can be a really grounding ritual for busy families, even when you have extended family in or you're traveling, is, as much as you can, try to create the normal routine of eating together at least one meal a day if it’s possible to. So, because you're already gonna eat, you're already gonna be doing these things, so how can you just create a little more intentionality around what you're doing with eating in enjoying the people around you, enjoying the food you're eating, really slowing down and making sure that you’re enjoying what’s on your plate. You're not just shoving stuff down. What is nourishing, what is sensual, what is delicious about what you're eating? Then, let yourself enjoy. This can go throughout your day. There’s so much.

I always talk about the shower ritual. Can you just take a shower and have that be like your respite? For me, it is one of my favorite ten minutes of the day. I fully immerse myself in the experience. I allow myself to feel the hot water just streaming down my skin and just have gratitude for how luscious and amazing it feels, that hot, warm water, and how it just rinses away everything that’s been on my mind. It rinses away the night.

20:14

It rinses away everything so there’s a clean, fresh start. I enjoy the smell of my products. I have this eucalyptus spray I spray in my shower that I love the smell of. I really enjoy feeling my hands on my skin as I massage my scalp. I enjoy massaging my face. I enjoy washing my body. I just really take time. I even do a breast massage. This takes ten minutes, y’all. It’s not like I’m doing this extravagant thing, but I make my intention around the experience one of connection. Then, when I get out. I put my lotion, my body oil on. I just do a face massage. I make it a ritual of self-adornment, of self-love. And so, I‘ve got a million of these things. This is what I work with clients all the time around.

21:05

So, these are just some ideas for you to ponder because what my wish is for you, what my intention with this episode is, is for you to kind of see, okay, here are the challenges that so many of us face around the holidays, and then here are some strategies of what I can do around it. I can honor my cycles. I can honor the rhythms and the natural calling that this time of year is inviting me towards. I can figure out what’s turning my accelerators on and what’s turning my brakes on and what can I do about that, right? How can I support the things that are making me feel good and try to tone down the things that aren't? How can I look at what’s on my schedule and say no to the things that are overwhelming me, right? How can I encourage myself to enjoy more sensual self-care in those three realms of the physical, the emotional, and the spiritual? How can I have more connection with my partner, when things get crazy, with intentionality?

22:07

So, all this to say, when we move into this time, it’s like remembering what are the important parts that you want to connect to. For me, when I think about it, it is connecting to the people that I love, enjoying seeing friends that I don't often see, enjoying snuggling in and being cozy, letting myself snuggle in and be cozy without guilt. Maybe I might even have a full day or two movie marathon, and I’m gonna enjoy the hell out of it without guilt because that, to me, is a little bit of reclamation of my own time and pleasure for myself. We’re able to do that, right? We’re able to do that. Maybe there’s gonna be a day or two where you let your kid watch way too much TV so you can have a break. We all do it, and it’s okay. We have to do what we have to do. But remembering what’s important and remembering, when it comes to your desire, when it comes to your pleasure, it’s the small things that add up.

23:08

Those foundational things (intentionality, connecting to your senses, being present, noticing what feels good and saying no to what doesn't) are all really important. A lot of these, even though they seem small, there’s a lot of big stories and big experiences that sometimes make it harder to do. That’s okay because we all have those, but it’s just when you can kind of slow it down, realize not everything is an emergency, how can I nourish myself, how can I let go of some of the stressors and really enjoy what I’m here to enjoy? How can I let my pleasure lead me? How can I be curious about what that’s gonna bring me today? And so, I’ll invite you with that. I’ll leave you with that question. As you move through the days, what will bring you the most pleasure today and how can you say yes to that? What will be depleting from your joy, and how can you say no to that? That could be the simplest thing to even start.

24:04

If this is something that you have more questions around, just send me a DM! I love talking about this stuff. You can DM me on Instagram @abtesta, and I would love to connect and hear your feedback or what you're struggling with and what are some of the ideas that you love to implement to stay connected?

So, sending you much love, and we will see you next week! Hope you have a beautiful week ahead. As we close, maybe once again just think what is, maybe, one thing from this episode that you could sit with? Sending you much love. See you next week!

_______

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life.

25:06

You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

Women do not always receive the same healthcare as men.

In fact, for too long medicine has not recognized that numerous health conditions — like heart disease, stroke, stress, mental health and more — impact women differently than men.

Orthopedic surgeon Mary I. O’Connor and medical anthropologist Kanwal L. Haq want to change that by empowering women with knowledge about the current landscape of women’s health, and showing them how to actively engage with their healthcare team.
 


In a groundbreaking publication, Taking Care of You: The Empowered Woman’s Guide to Better Health, O’Connor and Haq have enlisted 111 leading women physicians and health experts from all across the country to create a practical resource guide for women to improve their health and obtain better healthcare.
 


Taking Care of You is refreshingly supportive and jargon-free, with colorful illustrations to help the reader better understand what can often be dense medical information.

Its unique approach includes three main sections:

WOMEN AND THE CURRENT HEALTH LANDSCAPE includes topics like:
* What exactly is “women’s health”
* How to find the right healthcare team
* How to use the internet for medical information
* When to go to urgent care versus the emergency department
* And much more


COMMON CLINICAL CONDITIONS IMPACTING WOMEN focuses on 55 non-reproductive clinical conditions that impact women more than men, or differently than men. 

They include:
* Breast, lung, cervical, and ovarian cancer
* High blood pressure, cholesterol, blood clots and stroke
* Anxiety, depression, obesity and metabolic syndrome
* Thyroid disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis
* Painful sex, pelvic inflammatory disease, polycystic ovary syndrome, urinary tract infection and incontinence, uterine fibroids and abnormal vaginal bleeding


Each chapter is divided into subsections that explain: 

* What is the condition?
* Can it be prevented? 
* How is it treated? Why does it matter to women? (Including differences related to sex, race and ethnicity)
* Questions to ask your clinician and healthcare team
* Pearls of wisdom from clinical experts

Taking Care of You focuses on activities women can do everyday — like eating well, sleeping and exercising — and how to effectively engage in these pillars of health to take better care of themselves.


Taking Care of You is an easy-to-use and accessible guide to be shared between mother and daughter, sister, aunt, and grandmother — an essential resource for every woman, and those who love her.

More about Mary O'Connor:

Mary I. O’Connor, MD is an internationally recognized orthopedic surgeon and health equity leader. She is co-founder and Chief Medical Officer of Vori Health, a virtual musculoskeletal medical practice delivering an innovative model of patient care to empower humanity to better health. 

In a profession dominated by white males, Dr. O’Connor broke numerous glass ceilings. Her distinguished academic career includes over 200 peer-reviewed publications and 350+ academic presentations. Dr. O’Connor is Professor Emerita at Mayo Clinic, where she served as the Chair of the Orthopedic Department at Mayo Clinic in Florida and was awarded the Distinguished Clinician Award. She is past Professor of Orthopaedics and Rehabilitation at Yale School of Medicine and directed Yale’s Center for Musculoskeletal Care. 

Dr. O’Connor’s championing of women began as an undergraduate at Yale. In 1976, she and her rowing teammates protested the lack of women’s facilities at the boathouse in what has been heralded as the first stand for gender equality in college athletics.

In 1979, Dr. O’Connor went on to stroke the Yale Women’s Varsity Eight to a national championship and the U.S. National Team Women’s Eight to a bronze medal at the World Rowing Championships. She was a member of the 1980 U.S. Olympic Team (Women’s Rowing). 

Having seen the bias that women, people of color, and other marginalized groups experience in healthcare, Dr. O’Connor has fought tirelessly to advocate for quality care for all. She has led Movement is Life, a national non-profit health equity coalition, since its inception in 2010. Next to caring for the patients she has had the privilege to serve, she considers her greatest professional achievements to be advancing health equity and diversity in medicine.

More about Kanwal Haq: 

Kanwal has been an activist long before she knew what the term meant. In kindergarten, she repeatedly threw away her uncle’s hidden cigarettes; when he tried to divert her cause with a visit to SeaWorld, she used the entire trip to protest “Free Willy!” …and then threw away his cigarettes.

Since then Kanwal has learned to use more successful approaches to effect change. She completed her B.S. in biological sciences from the University of Missouri, her M.S. in medical anthropology from Boston University School of Medicine, and worked at the Centre Hospitalier Universitaire de Kigali, Americorps, the United Nations, and Yale School of Medicine. Kanwal currently leads the NYC women’s health programs at Mount Sinai Icahn School of Medicine’s Arnhold Institute for Global Health.

An applied-research scientist dedicated to education and health equity, Kanwal utilizes community-based participatory research and implementation science to build more effective, efficient, and equitable systems of care. Her desire to bridge the gap between academic knowledge and community resources served as the catalyst for “Taking Care of You”.

Want more support? Schedule a confidential 1-1 call with Amanda here.

Have a topic or question you'd like Amanda to address on a future episode? Submit it on this anonymous form.

If you liked this episode, please consider giving me a 5 Star Review on Apple Podcasts! It truly does help the podcast grow. 

EPISODE 238: with Mary O’Connor and Kanwal Haq

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

Women do not always receive the same healthcare as men. In fact, for far too long, medicine has not recognized that numerous health conditions (such as heart disease, stroke, stress, mental health, and more) impact women differently than me.

So, today, I’m super excited to have on the podcast orthopedic surgeon, Mary O’Connor and medical anthropologist Kanwal Haq to talk about their new book called Taking Care of You and, really, how it can help empower women to advocate for your own health in this environment where the system might not always be set up to support you.

So, welcome! Thank you both so much for being here. I’d love to start off by saying thank you for the work that you're doing and for writing this book.

1:01

Mary O’Connor: Oh, Amanda. That’s so gracious of you, and we are just delighted to be with you on this podcast and hopefully empowering your listeners about the importance of women, in particular, being strong advocates for their own health.

Amanda Testa: Yes, this is something that I learned far too late in life, and actually, my husband is in the medical profession, and so, he is the one that really got me advocating for myself when, in the past, I probably would just go along with whatever my doctor said or not even really search out alternative solutions. So, I think it’s so important, and I’d love if you would share a little bit about what inspired you two to pair up to write this book to begin that.

Kanwal Haq: Sure, so I can start that, and, Amanda, thank you so much for having us and thank you so much for the work that you are doing.

How I got connected with Mary was while I was at Yale. I had just started, and I actually had been following Mary’s work. She’s been in the health equity space for quite some time, and I was a little bit starstruck.

2:05

It took me a while before I reached out, and she always kind of rolls her eyes when I say this, but she has really done some amazing work.

And so, while I was there, I was kind of running into some health issues of my own, and there was just a lot I was learning working within the system, and so, when I reached out to Mary, we kind of started talking about this, and we had a lot to talk about. Mary was like, “We should write a book!” That’s kind of how it started, and it was very organic in the process, and kind of just about what we both care about. Mary, if you want to add to that.

Mary O’Connor: I’d had this idea for a book for a while, mostly because I was just so tired of having women come in to see me as patients and recognize that they really hadn’t received great care, and that communication with their orthopedic surgeon hadn’t been great, and that’s to the detriment of the patient, essentially.

3:03

So, I was like I should really write a book, but I knew that if I had a partner to do it with that one, we’d probably get it done, and it would be a lot more fun to go through this process. And it has been, and now I have this incredible friend, and we’ve created this book that we’re very proud of. And so, now, we’re trying to get it out into the hands of women so that they can use it to have better health.

Amanda Testa: And I’m curious. If you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about what are some of the challenges on our current health landscape that people might not even be aware of. If you could share a little more.

Mary O’Connor: I’ll start with one, and then Kanwal can certainly add others. I think that one of the biggest challenges is that -- this is a general statement, and I know I’m stereotyping here. So there’s always going to be exceptions to these statements but, in general, doctors don't listen to women, and doctors assume that women are exaggerating their symptoms because we are in a society where that is the stereotype, where women say their pain is nine out of ten, and a man says his pain is nine out of ten, and the health provider is more inclined to believe that the man is in miserable pain but the woman is exaggerating, right?

4:25

She’s somehow along the hysteria line, and so, her symptoms are not taken at face value because we minimize, we diminish the voice of the woman as a patient. We discredit the information that she is sharing with us, saying, “Well, it’s really not that bad. She’s exaggerating.” And this harms women.

Amanda Testa: That’s huge. I’m just laughing -- not laughing, but just thinking of one experience in particular that I had with a previous dermatologist that I was like how have you been doing this for 20-something years?

5:00

Anyways! But, yeah, and so, I know that there are a lot of other issues that can come to play around that, but what I'm curious is if you're coming in from the patient’s standpoint and you really want to make sure that you are taken seriously, what is it that you need to do so that you're not being diminished in what you’re sharing and what your symptoms are?

Kanwal Haq: Yeah, and I think, for that, that’s really why, for this book, we wanted to kind of create a tool that was easy to use, that women could pick up. Like they’ve got a doctor’s appointment and they can kind of pick this up right before and flip through it. Let’s say you're experiencing back pain. You can turn to the chapter on back pain, and it’s gonna explain what is this condition, how can it be prevented, how is it treated, why it matters to women. So what are those differences between men and women. A lot of times, we do experience these symptoms differently, and then what we think are really essential questions to ask your healthcare team ‘cause a lot of times we talk into that conversation and we might be prepared to say, “I have back pain, and I’ve been having it for X, Y, and Z,” but that’s it.

6:07

We might not know which questions to ask or how to get the most out of that conversation and, really, when you’ve got 15/20 minutes, you’ve got to get the most out of that conversation so that you can leave with the steps to make sure that once you leave that appointment that you can really take care of yourself and you can do what’s best for you to really make the most of that treatment plan.

But that’s not something a lot of us do. Not a lot of us feel comfortable doing that. For the sake of, like, we don't want to be the disagreeable patient. We don't want to ask too much. We don't want to question too much. I think that section, that’s why we think that’s so important and then after that section there’s also pearls of wisdom from an expert.

So, we have this incredible lineup of over 111 women who are all medical experts (clinicians, and so on) who contributed to this. And so, for that section, you also get -- like, if they could sit down with you individually, and what would they tell you? That guidance is included in every chapter.

7:07

Amanda Testa: I think it’s so important to be sharing this information far and wide, too, which is why I love that you have this book because, so often, we are just taught -- well, I would say for myself, specifically someone who is a cis white woman who has been taught to kind of always default to someone else and not necessarily speak up. And so, I think there can be a lot of fear in speaking up for yourself, right? Especially in a position where you have less power than the doctor in some stations, right?

Mary O’Connor: Yes, and, Amanda, a few years ago, I had a medical student. We did a little study. So, there is an online software program that basically is focused on patient education and people can ask questions. Patients can interact with the program and ask questions, and so, I got permission from the company for us to do an analysis for patients that were having knee replacement surgery (‘cause I’m an orthopedic surgeon. I’ve done thousands of knee replacements in my career) as to the number of and kinds of questions that women asked in this program versus men.

8:13

This probably isn't a big surprise, but women asked more questions, and women asked a lot more questions in the topic areas that were more difficult for the physician to answer specifically. For example, women would ask a lot about pain. “How much pain, Dr. O’Connor, do you think I’m gonna have to have after this knee replacement surgery, and how long will I have the pain?”

My response is, “I can’t answer that, actually. Everybody’s different. Know that we’re gonna do all that we can to manage your pain because we need to manage your pain so you can do your physical therapy so you can have a great result from the surgery, right?” But the kinds of questions that women would ask are often questions that are much harder for the clinician to answer in a very specific way.

9:04

So, not only do women ask for questions which, then, takes more time on the part of the physician to answer, right -- I mean, I’ve experienced this as a patient. There’s that kind of subtle feeling like, “Okay, I’ve used up my question-asking time now, and I should stop asking more questions because…” You just kind of get this sense like that’s it, and that is something that we need to empower women to say, “I have more questions. I mean, if you don't have time right now, we can schedule a follow-up call or another appointment or a video visit or whatever because I need my questions answered.”

Amanda Testa: I think that’s something that is a fair thing to ask, right? If you feel like you're not getting enough time with your provider. Could you make another appointment where you could just have time to just talk and ask questions if they're something they’re available for, right?

10:02

Mary O’Connor: Absolutely. It is the hardest, as a healthcare practitioner -- the biggest challenge on the provider’s side is really having the time to spend with patients like you want to. But, at the same time, different patients need different amounts of time, and so, we still need to be able to meet the needs of the patient and answer their questions because otherwise they can’t make the right decision about what’s best for them and we really should be incorporating more shared decision making in terms of our clinical processes. The point about shared decision making is that’s the concept where, in that conversation, the patient’s values and preferences are identified and recognized and brought into that decision-making process, and a lot of times that doesn't happen. In fact, I would say the majority of the time, that doesn't happen.

10:58

Amanda Testa: You know, another thing, too, that I kinda want to loop back to which I think is important to note is that, for many people, learning more about our health and wellness is not something we’re ever taught, right? If we’re lucky, maybe we got a class or two in high school about it, and, really, that’s about it, and it was probably very basic, right?

And so, I’m curious what you might have to share around just what women can do in general or what people can do in general to kind of take more of an onus of learning about their health and how to empower, for themselves, even before there’s a problem ‘cause I think that a lot of the issues is that our medicine is really based, a lot of time, if there’s a problem and how to fix it. So, yeah.

Kanwal Haq: And I think what that -- in terms of how we laid this out, because that was really one of the things because I’ve seen -- you know, it’s like as I’m aging or going through different changes, I don't really know what to expect. Like, I don't know -- I would hear my friends say, “Oh, I turned 30, and my back started hurting overnight,” right? I thought that was a joke, but it turned out it really wasn't in some ways, but what do I do about that and how can I take better care of myself, and when I’m in my fifties, when I’m in my sixties, what are other challenges I may face?

12:13

And so, kind of with that, we made a list of what are the conditions that are impacting women right now, right? What are those top things? If you look at what are the top ten things killing women in the US, when we talk about women’s health, we’re not talking about those things. We’re not talking about heart disease. We’re not talking about dementia. We’re not talking about diabetes. When we talk about women’s health, we tend to talk about pregnancy and more reproductive health-related issues. While those are very, very important, limiting our education only to those pieces is really detrimental to our health because there are so many other pieces that play a role.

So, we kind of outlined 55 different clinical conditions that might impact you during your lifespan at different points, but in terms of being proactive about your health, we really wanted to incorporate that, and I think someone had a great suggestion in terms of how to use this book.

13:12

Read the first section. They're short chapters. Read the first section like it’s more about what is the landscape of women’s health, how to access care, things like that. Then, read the last section which is called “Taking Care of You.” So, it includes things on nutrition, sleep, exercise, all the things that we quote, unquote learn. “You’re supposed to eat right. You’re supposed to exercise,” but what does that even mean? If you have a certain condition, how can that play a role?

And so, in those chapters, we really try to break it down. Go to sleep at the same time every day, make sure it’s at a cool temperature, and all of these things that we don't tend to just know and we have to learn, but when are we taught that? We’re not, and so, we hope that this book will help us build those strategies, build those good habits in taking care of our self.

14:00

Mary O’Connor: I’ll add that, Amanda, in the common clinical conditions, the templates are very structured, so each chapter is basically templated the same. And so, it is what is the clinical condition? Can it be prevented? How is it treated? Why does it matter to women where we pull in data and research that’s available on disparities for women and women of color if there’s also information available regarding that. Then, questions to ask your healthcare team about the condition and pearls of wisdom.

And so, for example, if you're in seeing your doctor or your nurse practitioner, there’s only so much time, and if they’re spending that time basically educating you on the basics of, for example, why are urinary tract infections more common in women than men? Okay? Whereas what that woman really needs to know is, “Am I at risk of recurrent urinary tract infections,” right? “What happens if I don't get better with this treatment that you're prescribing?” So, there’s time that’s being spent, that precious time in that clinical encounter, that’s being spent on the basic education that that women could get from reading this chapter so that, then, when she’s there with her clinician, she can ask the more important questions for her.

15:17

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too, because this is a question. Say you have a loved one who you are trying to encourage to advocate for their health, and maybe they're resistant to that. And so, I’m curious what, maybe, you could offer in that area? So, obviously giving them the book, but what about people that are kind of more resistant to that? What would you say to that?

Mary O’Connor: Well, I’ll comment on this because I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard in my career someone come in and say, “I had my surgery with this surgeon because I heard that --,” almost always he, okay, “-- he was a great technical surgeon and his bedside manner was terrible, but I didn't care about that.” If there is one thing I could do, it would be to tell people do not have surgery with a surgeon that doesn't listen to you and that you can't talk to because if you have a problem afterwards, you are going to be extremely dissatisfied and you may not have a successful resolution because there’s not good communication between you and this surgeon.

16:24

So, this concept that surgeons can be different and they don't have to be good communicators and connect with patients and have patients trust them because the patient is selecting this surgeon based on their, quote, “technical expertise reputation” I think is very dangerous, very dangerous, and people should seek clinicians that they're comfortable with because so much of the diagnosis in medicine is based on the patient’s history which means that there has to be listening, communication, and trust.

17:00

Amanda Testa: Listening, communication, and trust. I think that is really powerful, and finding the connection, the ability to communicate your needs.

Mary O’Connor: Right, I mean, if I don't feel like my doctor has my best interest at heart, why would I share information that I might be hesitant to share otherwise?

Amanda Testa: Right, that is very important. I think, too, it’s kind of trusting your gut in a way. When you are with a provider, do you feel like you can openly share, and if not, what might you need to be able to do that, and is it just something that you need to kind of tune in and say, “This is something I really need to share,” or is it that this person is not the right person for me, right?

Mary O’Connor: In my experience I’d say 85% of the time it’s not the right person and it’s not a good match.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Mary O’Connor: And, you know, I’ve experienced that. A short story ‘cause stories are always good.

Amanda Testa: Yes!

Mary O’Connor: So, I had a patient come in and, unfortunately, I was always running late in clinic to see my patients, and it’s not because I was having tea and Bonbons, it’s just because I was spending the time that I needed to spend with the patients, and so, the best thing was to get the first appointment, right?

18:10

Because I wasn't behind at that point in the day, but, anyway, so the patient comes in, and she has been a secretary to a judge, and she’s upset that she’s waited 40 minutes, and do I not know that her time is valuable. I, of course, apologize, and I was very good at apologizing for this because, unfortunately, this was not an uncommon occurrence for me to be running late. So, I apologize, tell her how sorry I am, and then she says, “Well, is this always like it is for you?” And I said, “I’m gonna be honest, yes. I usually run behind because I'm spending the time that I think I need to spend, that my patients think they need with me, and so, I work through lunch, I work late, I don't do my dictations ‘til the end.” I mean, this is how I work. I said, “If that is really a concern for you, then I’m not the right doctor for you. I’m really not because it’s really gonna bother you that I am not on time for your appointment, so I would respectfully suggest that you seen one of my partners because he’s almost always on time, and then you’ll be happy with that, and you're not gonna be happy with me,” and I said, “And we won't charge you for this visit. This will be like we had this little chat, and I’m gonna refer you to my other doctor,” and she says, “Well, why can he be on time and you can't?” I said, “Because I spend more time with my patients. Period.”

19:34

Now, he’s a great surgeon. I think he’s an excellent doctor. I’ve sent my family members to him, but he has -- his style is different than mine. He just doesn't spend the same amount of time with patients as I do.

So, that was an example where, you know what? We didn't click. That patient and I would have been a disaster. We would have never had a positive, trusting relationship because every time I would be late, she would be resentful of it. So, that was a good outcome. Let me send you to my partner who is always on time.

Amanda Testa: I love the honesty. Go ahead, sorry.

20:11

Kanwal Haq: I can share a story as a patient of going into see my rheumatologist, and I had already been waiting probably 20/30 minutes in the room, and so, at that point, I’m thinking, “All right, it’s getting to be a bit,” and then I heard her outside, and I heard her talking to the staff, and the way that she was communicating, I immediately was like, oh, she’s a very gentle person. She’s taking a lot of time. She’s thinking through things. For me, the time wasn't an issue ‘cause I was really looking for someone who was gonna spend that time 'cause I was having these kind of complicated issues that need time, that we have to think through. It’s not gonna be a quick, easy fix. And so, I think, also, kind of understanding what you're gonna get.

21:05

We have a chapter that’s called “Finding The Right Clinician For You.” And so, it’s like what are the things I’m really looking for? And so, there's always gonna be some -- it’s never gonna be a perfect, absolute, what-I-dream-of situation, but, overwhelmingly, what am I looking for? For me, that was so rare because I couldn't find someone who was willing to take that time and really listen and be like, “Okay, here are some groups and here are some other physicians that I need you to see, and I’m gonna work with them as a team.”

I think it depends, from person to person, what we need. Is it Telehealth? Can I make a Telehealth appointment? Can I contact this person on MyChart if I have questions later? Can I have access? There are a lot of different things, and so, we kind of talk through some of those things like what are you looking for -- distance, time, type of visit -- so, really making that choice for yourself.

Amanda Testa: And I know there are so many good nuggets within the book, and I’m also curious just, overall, if there were one or two things that you wish every woman could know -- obviously, there’s a lot, but if you could just say, “Okay, here’s the number one thing or the one and two things that I really want you to know,” what would that be? What would that advice be for them?

22:20

Mary O’Connor: Well, Amanda, that’s a tough question because there are so many things.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Mary O’Connor: But, again, I would say (which relates to my prior comments) I think it’s really important that you find the healthcare team that you’re comfortable with, that you trust, that will listen to you. The second thing would be to recognize that we have a lot more power over our own health than what we might believe because it’s actually our individual behavior that is the strongest factor in determining our health. And so, recognizing our responsibility to step up and take better care of ourselves and to prioritize ourselves as opposed to what we typically do which is I’ve got my husband, I have children, I have my older mother that I basically provide a lot of care for, etcetera. So, I am the lowest one of that ranking, and that, we can't do because we just end up hurting ourselves and then we can’t be helping others.

23:23

So, it’s really giving ourselves permission to say, “Nope, I have to come first right now,” and I know that’s not always the case where different priorities come in, but it’s changing our mindset to, “Nope, I have to take care of myself. I value, I matter, and I can't be of help to those that I love when I’m sick.”

Kanwal Haq: Absolutely, and I think, just like you said, like they tell you on the airplane, “You’ve got to put your mask on before you help anyone else put their mask on,” and, as women, we tend to not do this. We tend to kind of be taking care of everybody else around us, but to do that to the best of our ability, we have to take care of ourselves first. And I think that piece of you need to advocate for yourself, you need to be your own advocate, and that this is really important because, at the end of the day, like you, this is the body that you were given.

24:17

This is the body that you’re gonna live your life through, and so, you’ve got to take care of it, and you’re gonna know how you're feeling more than anybody else. So, you're gonna be able to communicate that, and you have to communicate with your team to get the care that you need.

Mary O’Connor: You know, I’ll just comment because every time I’m on a plane and I hear that announcement, I’m struck with, “I wouldn't do that!” I mean, if my child was sitting next to me, I would make sure their oxygen mask was on first. I mean, that’s honestly what I would do, and I appreciate the message, but it just shows how, as mothers, in particular, we put our children ahead of us which I would, again, still do that, right?

25:00

But, at least, if I have a little more recognition about how important it is that I also have to be taking care of me and understanding that I have needs and I need to be empowered to, for example, tell my husband that I need him to go do this, “Yes, I could do it, but, honey, you can do it too, and I need you to go do this.” That we just need to be more, I say, protective of our needs and not be doing everything for everyone all the time.

Amanda Testa: Yes, to that! I talk about that a lot on the podcast because when it comes to finding your feminine fire, so to speak, or just putting yourself first, I see that happen so much with, a lot of times, caregivers, mothers, because of that, our cultural conditioning that we are to just take care of everyone else and kind of martyr ourselves in a way which, in the end, does not help anyone.

26:01

I had someone on the podcast once, and they were talking about just the big instances of middle-aged women who have neglected themselves and just how the health issues start to pile on, you know? Also, cancer and a lot of things because they have neglected to care for themselves and, like you say, it’s not always easy but it’s finding the little ways that you can do it because, like you said, if you're sick, you can't help anyone. And, even a lot of times, with busy caregivers that have not a lot of resource or support, then they don't really get to take care of themselves as easily.

So, I think that is a real challenge.

Mary O’Connor: I’ll share another example. So, a friend of ours is basically caring for both her parents at the moment, and it’s a huge burden, and her father has dementia, and the mother broke her hip a couple months ago. She has siblings, but the siblings don't live close by, and she is just basically sucking it up and doing all this work, and I have said repeatedly, “What about your siblings?” to which the response is, “Well, they don't want to come. They don't want to help.”

27:10

I said, “No, no, no! That’s not the message! The message is you call them up, and you say, ‘You need to come here for a week. I need a break.’ Okay? This is not a request on your part. This is an expectation. ‘These are our parents. I’m here doing 100% of the load right now. My health is suffering, okay? And I need support. I’m not asking you to come and do all of it. It’s not an ask.’ Get out there and set this expectation, otherwise, guess what? they're not gonna do it. They're just gonna let you do it all, and that’s what you're doing right now, and look at what it’s doing to you! You’re not sleeping. You're losing weight. You have no time for exercise. I see the physical and mental toll on you, and you are afraid to demand of them that they come and help.” But she won't do it. See, this is how this psychology affects us and hurts us.

28:13

Amanda Testa: I can share a personal experience around there where I feel like I kind of learned this at an early age because, in my twenties, my dad had early onset Alzheimer’s. My mom was his main caregiver, and then she got breast cancer, and so, I just remember coming home -- I would come home a lot. Since I was in Colorado and they were in Georgia, I would go back a lot to help, and I just remember once when my mom was having surgery and I was taking care of my mom and taking care of my dad, and I was in my twenties, and I was like this is intense. And you’ve got to take care of yourself.

Then, I started doing a lot of research on caregiving and how to nourish yourself as a caregiver, and there’s actually a lot of good resources out there and groups and places where you can get support. So, I think that’s just important to note, too, that if you are a caregiver feeling overwhelmed, just reach out. You can DM us. I’ll share everybody’s information. I can share resources, but you can find those in your community too, because I think that is one of the things that I really feel is so key is just kind of getting more back to community support, community care, and really helping each other.

29:16

Mary O’Connor: So, Amanda, I’ve been in the health equity space for quite a while, and I chair a national group that is now a nonprofit called Movement Is Life, and we created a community-based program called Operation Change, and we have focused this on middle-age and older women with knee pain and some other comorbidity like obesity, diabetes. So, these are not healthy women, and they're all overweight or obese, and they have knee pain.

So, it’s an 18-week program. It’s three hours a week. The first hour is in some type of educational session where we talk about nutrition or depression or what arthritis is, things like that, and then there’s an hour of movement, different things. It could be some form of yoga or any kind of movement activity, and the third hour we break them into smaller groups for motivational interviewing where they can really explore what are the barriers in their personal lives to making healthy behavior change.

30:16

Okay, this program has been amazing, and we’re talking they don't see doctors, nurses. They're not getting any drugs or injections. Eighteen percent improvement in their walking speed over those 18 weeks. A 69% improvement in their sense of hopelessness because they're all depressed. These women are lower socio-economic status. They have knee pain. They're overweight. They’ve got a lot of stuff going on, but what I learned from them was the reason why the program worked. It wasn't that our education was better (‘cause they could get education in a lot of places), and it wasn't necessarily the movement or even the motivational interviewing which I thought it would be. It was that we created a community. We brought them together, they formed a community, and they provided each other with the emotional support to make the behavior change.

31:10

That was, like, a lightbulb moment for me for which I actually did a TEDx Talk because the lightbulb moment for me was we can all be health promoters. Each of us in our own space, our own sphere, can help promote healthier behaviors in others. I can bring fresh fruit and vegetables in for a snack at work. I can say, “Hey, instead of having this meeting face-to-face, let’s go for a walk and meet while we’re walking,” right? I mean, Kanwal and I writing this book is us being health promoters to other women. And so, it’s recognizing that each of us has this power to help promote health and the power of that community to provide you the support that you need to make the change because changing behavior is really hard.

32:05

The hardest thing, probably that we do. We have a chapter on that that talks about that in the book. But it’s really the emotional support that we need from others to help us make the behavior change that’s key.

Amanda Testa: Ah, I love that. That’s so important.

Kanwal Haq: And I think even with Mary and I working together over this, sometimes we’d have our weekly meetings and then Mary’s like, “Oh, I was on the elliptical,” or as we were talking to other women, and I’ve noticed two things in myself over the writing process. One, I’ve become a better advocate for myself in terms of working with my clinicians, asking for the things that I need, and, two, I’m building healthier habits because I feel like now I have this community of women who are really supporting this method.

33:01

We really wanted to support each other to get that care, and even though we didn't set out to create this community, it naturally happened, and I've just seen, oh, wow, three years ago, I was not working out three to four times a week. Now, I am! I am eating healthier. I’m a lot more cognizant just by talking about this a lot more and writing about it. I think the power of that is just incredible because it’s like what we were talking about earlier. We have a really hard time putting ourselves first. We put everyone else in front of us, but having this community of women who are like, “No, you’ve gotta do that,” we all kind of encourage each other to do that, to take care, to rest when we need to, and that, I don't really know how to put it into words, but this works because I’ve seen it, just in the process of writing this book, on my own health.

34:01

So, I hope that this is going to create more communities in our local community, in our work community, in our friends, and get that conversation started. And so, that we are having these conversations and we end the book with what Mary said, that we all can be a health promoter and kind of changing that shift from being a patient to being an agent of change, and really we have the power to do that, and it’s incredible. It takes some time to see it, but once you see it come to life, you're like, “Oh, wow! I don't even know how I progressed this much.” It’s really incredible.

Mary O’Connor: Amanda, you know, there’s one other thing that surprised me when we were writing the book, and that is how common it is for there to be sex differences in clinical conditions. Now, I’d known this in the orthopedic space because I’ve researched this, and this has been my clinical area, but it is so amazing that across so many different clinical conditions, women present with symptoms that are different than men or they may respond to treatment differently, and so, I really enjoyed learning about that as Kanwal and I were reading the chapters that the expert contributors would send into us.

35:25

So, that’s another thing that we tend to forget. Every cell has a sex. Every person has a gender. And so, there’s a lot of physiology and medical illness that is driven by sex or influenced by sex, is a better phrase. If your healthcare team is not paying attention to that or knowledgeable regarding that, then that could be to your detriment, and heart disease is the easiest example for that. Women present with different symptoms than men. Why?

36:01

Because they actually have heart disease that’s different than men. Women tend to have heart disease that involves the smaller vessels in the heart. Men tend to have disease that involves the larger vessels. And this makes all the difference in terms of how that woman presents with symptoms and if the doctor isn't thinking about that, that woman is being sent home from the emergency department with diagnoses of indigestion as opposed to, “Oh, my. Maybe she’s actually having a heart attack.”

Amanda Testa: And I've heard that. ‘Cause you hear when you are -- some of the things to look out for, right, if you feel like you're having a heart attack and how it can present differently for women and men, and I’m wondering, too, what else is there to look out for with those discrepancies, would you say?

Mary O’Connor: Well, what I would say to women is if you’re going in and you think you're having chest pain or tightness, right -- because women will not necessarily feel pain. It’s a tightness like there’s something that’s not right. So when you're going in to be evaluated, ask the question, “How do you know this isn't my heart? Women have heart disease that’s different than men. I need you to test me and evaluate me and then reassure me that it’s not my heart if, in fact, it’s not my heart,” right?

37:23

Because, otherwise, our symptoms can just basically be poo-pooed.

Amanda Testa: I think, as you say that, too, it’s also really listening to yourself, and if something’s not right, keep asking the questions until you get the answer that satisfies you, and if not, find someone who will give you the answer, right?

Mary O’Connor: Absolutely because I don't know how many times -- we’re conditioned at a certain point to, then, say, “Well, it’s in my head.” I mean, we don't condition men to say, “Oh, your symptoms are in your head,” but we condition women to say, “That’s in your head. That’s not real.” That’s just craziness, but that is our culture, and the medical profession -- again, my opinion, stereotyping, but I believe it’s all true, and I’m sure I could find data to support this -- we are far more likely to say that the symptoms of an individual are in their head if that person is a woman as opposed to if that person is a man.

38:22

Amanda Testa: It’s so important to advocate for yourself. This is why this book is such a great tool, so if you can learn -- and here are the questions you need to be asking, here’s what you need to be advocating for. This is kind of a jokey story, but it’s so true. It’s like if you can kind of speak the language of the world that you're in, it does help.

So, for example, a couple of years ago, our air conditioner broke, and my husband had a friend who does stuff in that field, and he was like, “It sounds like it might be this. Ask them if it’s this,” and it’s a word that you wouldn't normally know, especially as a woman, I’m saying, “I think it might be this.”

39:00

He was like, “Oh,” you know? He got it, and it was much more of a supportive environment versus me not knowing the right words or knowing what to say, right? It could be easier to be taken advantage of or -- I shouldn't say taken advantage of -- or just miscommunicated. There’s more of a route for miscommunication, right?

Mary O’Connor: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: And I know in the book you do share about that. Yeah, go ahead, Kanwal.

Kanwal Haq: Yeah, we just tried to address that because in kind of finding the balance of sometimes it can just be medical jargon and they're spitting all this terminology at you, and you're like, “What does this mean? I don't have time to pull out a dictionary and look up all of these words.” But, at the same time, if you have a meniscus tear and you want to know what kind of tear it is, we kind of put it in layman’s terms and then we put the medical term in parenthesis so that you have both, right? Right there you could understand what does this mean. “Oh, a bucket tear. Here, it looks like a bucket. Here’s also illustrations that kind of help in the understanding of all of these things ‘cause sometimes we really need that visual representation, and it can stick with us a lot longer, too.

40:08

So, you digest this information in multiple ways, and hopefully it will stay with you by the time you get to the doctor’s office and afterwards.

Amanda Testa: Well, I just really want to thank you both so much, and I want to just have everyone who’s out there to make sure to get a couple copies of this and share it with their loved ones because it is so helpful just to have this handbook. You're like, “Oh, okay!” It is so well organized where you can easily search through and be like, “Okay, this seems to be what I’m feeling. It’s my knee. Let’s look up and see what’s going on there.” So, I think that’s such an easy way for every person out there that maybe doesn't have a lot of medical knowledge to get better care and get better support, yeah.

Mary O’Connor: This book can actually be used by men and women, right?

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Mary O’Connor: Although, we specifically focused some of the sections of the chapters on women to say how does it differ for women, right, compared to men. But this book is a very useful tool for anyone with any kind of medical condition, aside from, as Kanwal said earlier, we avoided pregnancy-related chapters because there are already plenty of excellent books out there related to fertility and pregnancy, but anybody would benefit from this book. Although, again, we specifically wrote it to empower women.

41:31

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I think it would be great if, just for all genders and expressions to understand more about all the bodies because it’s just very helpful because, at many times in our lives, we probably have people we love that have bodies different than ours, and to be able to support those people and understand what’s going on, that can be very supportive. I watched a funny thing today. It was a reel on asking men on the street questions about women’s bodies, and just the answers and the lack of education is really distressing to me. It’s distressing that we don’t know the basic things about anatomy or well-educated people don't know a lot even, right? So, this is why this work is so needed, and I am so grateful for you for doing this. So, thank you!

42:14

Mary O’Connor: Our pleasure.

Amanda Testa: I’m wondering, too, if there are any last words you want to share or if there was a question that you really wished that I would have asked that I didn't or maybe a point you really want to make sure to cover?

Kanwal Haq: I think I just really want to hear feedback, and I want to hear from the women what they like about this book, what they want to be included in the next edition because I’ve been already getting some feedback, and I really, really welcome more feedback of, hey, what was useful? I think it was really awesome -- I heard a story of a women the other day who told me she’d bought the book, and she said, “I’ve been dealing with migraines for years, and so, actually, I read the first couple chapters and then I read the migraine chapter, and I’ve been on this medication for a long time that I really didn't like, but I never even knew that I could ask my doctor to be on a different medication.” She said, “After I read this book, I did ask! I was like, ‘Can we try something else?’ and he said, ‘Yeah,’” and she did, and she was like, I’m doing so much better.”

43:13

But I think just that lightbulb going off and, like, I don't have to deal with this, I don't have to just take it. I can get better care. And I was like, “Well, how do you feel?” She was like, “I feel great!” and then she was like, “I didn't know I could do that!” I was so proud of her, and it was also this is a woman who’s always advocating for other women. She takes care of so many women in our community, and so, for me, I was so happy that she was taking the time to take care of herself. I hope this book does that for our sisters, for our moms, for our grandmothers, for all the women in our lives because we want to see them thrive.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Mary O’Connor: I would just add that I agree completely with my incredible co-author, Kanwal, that we would love feedback from the people that use the book.

44:04

Maybe there will be a second edition down the road at some point, and so, getting some feedback from people about what they liked or what they would like to see more of or less of would be very helpful because the whole purpose of this book is to help individuals (women, in particular) be better advocates for their own health.

Kanwal Haq: The last thing is we really hope right now you buy this book, and I hope it helps you today. I mean, I hope it helps you later down the line, you can pull it off the shelf. But, also, the proceeds of this book are invested into education and research at Mayo Clinic, so we hope that’s gonna further better care for women.

Mary O’Connor: Absolutely.

Amanda Testa: And, if you wouldn’t mind sharing (I’ll let each of you go), where is the best place the listeners can connect with you and learn more about you and get the book? I’ll also share all this in the show notes, but I want to share it here as well.

Kanwal Haq: Sure, so, our website is www.takingcareofyoubook.com, and there, we’ve got links to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, a couple of other retail sellers. You can also ask your local library to order the book, and your local bookstore, if you don't see it on the shelf, you can ask them. They’ll order it for you, but it is available on multiple different platforms so you can pick the one that you like best. We’ve got a Kindle version. We’ve got an audiobook version. So, based on how you learn best, as well, you can pick.

45:25

Mary O’Connor: And we have our email addresses right there in the book so people can reach out to us and connect with us. Again, we’re happy to hear feedback, and I ‘m just constantly amazed at some of the really basic questions that I get from just my family and friends that will reach out to me with medical questions, and those that are non-orthopedic related, right, because they just don't know what to ask. And so, hopefully, this book will give them the knowledge of basic questions and fundamental things that they should understand, and then, as they have questions, ask.

46:03

Amanda Testa: Well, thank you both so much for being here and for all of this work that you're doing, and also, too, for the listeners, I would love for you to just maybe take a minute and digest. What is one of the main nuggets that you’ve received from this episode? Please, shoot me a DM @abtesta or reach out to Dr. O’Connor or Kanwal, and we will answer your questions because, obviously, they are excited for you to get the book and give your feedback, and also know that no question is too small or silly, and feedback is always important and encouraged. So, thank you all for listening, and thank you so much again to Mary and Kanwal for being here, and we will see you all next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]

JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION ON THIS EPISODE AND MORE IN MY FREE FACEBOOK GROUP, FIND YOUR FEMININE FIRE HERE.

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Susan is the best-selling author and publisher of 34 books and programs including “Sexual Soulmates,” “Relationship Magic,” “Revive Her Drive,” Ravish Him,” “Steamy Sex Ed™,” “The Passion Patch,” “Hormone Balancing,” and “Hot To Trot.”

She has been featured in the New York Times and on CNBC and the TODAY show as well as frequent appearances on ABC, CBS, The CW, Fox, and NBC.

You can find The Susan Bratton Show® at BetterLover.com, her personal shares on Instagram @susanbratton, and her lust-for-life supplements, FLOW and DESIRE at The20store.com.

Susan holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration from the University of Phoenix, where she graduated with honors. She also completed post-graduate studies at Stanford University Business School.

Susan is a member of Vintage TED (the original group of TEDsters), Women of Sex Tech, Mindshare Collaborative, and FlightClub Mastermind. A coral chaser, she earned her scuba certification and has done over 50 dives.

As a Barbizon-trained model, Susan did mannequin modeling in department stores to put herself through college. She became a multi-millionaire by age 37, lost everything, then went on to rebuild her business with incredible success.

Her core expertise lies in the intersection between passionate lovemaking techniques and bedroom communication skills. She has studied extensively what makes intimacy truly passionate, surrendered, and connected, and she boils down those skills to simple practices anyone can use to achieve profoundly pleasurable results.

Learn more at SusanBratton.com and The20Store.com.

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EPISODE 237: with Susan Bratton

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Amanda Testa: Hello, and welcome to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. I am your host, Amanda Testa. I am a sex, love, and relationship coach, and in this podcast, my guests and I talk sex, love, and relationships, and everything that lights you up from the inside out. Welcome!

If you are looking for fun ways to make your sex life more passionate, more connected, and more satisfying, you are gonna love today’s episode ‘cause I am talking with one of my friends, and just the most amazing human, Susan Bratton. She’s an intimacy expert for millions, and she has just really spent her career on cultivating ways for people to have these tools, to have better connection, to have this amazing sex, and she is just a bundle of joy to be around, too. So welcome, welcome. I’m so happy to be talking with you again today, Susan.

Susan Bratton: I woke up like, “I get to talk to Amanda!” I was all excited this morning. I put my bright red top on. I’m feeling so good ‘cause I just love to spend time with you!

1:00

Every moment I spend with you is just joy for me. I just love you so much and your gorgeous husband. You’re just the best.

Amanda Testa: Thank you so much. I feel the same about you!

Susan Bratton: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: And I always love how you are so good at keeping things playful and fun and exciting as we move through life, and I love, love, love that you're always innovating and coming up with something new because it can be so easy to get stuck in the same ole same ole in all areas of your life, right?

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Whether it’s work or sex or your relationship, whatever. And you're always keepin’ it fresh, and I’m so inspired by you.

Susan Bratton: I am having the best sex of my life right now. Holy shit, I’m having such a good sex life right now. I’m 61! I turned 61 -- well, I invited you to my birthday party. I know you couldn't come. It was no problem at all. I know you were traveling, but 61 and I am crushing it! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes! Okay, so let’s talk more about this because, tell me, what are some of the things you think that are helping you have such awesome sex right now?

Susan Bratton: Mm, well, I think a lot of it is the experimentation that I’m doing that helps me write the techniques that I write.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

2:06

Susan Bratton: So, I think a bit part of the reason why I keep saying, “I’m having the best sex of my life,” every year is a combination of two things. Number one, it’s constant trying new stuff, noticing what’s working, turning it into ideas for my fans to try themselves, little insights into, “Oh, hey, we did this thing. I have some techniques I want to tell you about.”

One of the things I’ve been working on is something I call “Makin’ Whoopee 2.0,” and it’s really intercourse techniques. I’ve really been focused on how to get a woman to cum from intercourse. And, you know, you had Dr. Laurie Mintz on recently, and she was the one that came up with the whole orgasm gap, right? And I like to help people cross the “gasm chasm”. I want to close the gap because what really chaps my ass big time, Amanda, is all the sexperts out there saying, “Women struggle to have orgasms from intercourse, and you need to make sure you touch the clit (like the tip of the clit, the glands, you know?), and you can’t expect her to have orgasms --,” and I’m like, that’s so wrong! What the hell are you saying?

3:22

All women can have orgasms from intercourse. It is a learned skill. Nobody was born knowing how to do it. Some people it comes to more naturally than others for various reasons, but when a woman thinks, “Oh, I guess I’m just not the kinda woman who can have orgasms from intercourse,” and then her male-bodied partner is like, “Well, I guess she’s not. I mean, if she doesn't think she can, she can’t, I guess.” And then they give up on it, and then they're having quote, unquote “sex,” and sex in his mind is intercourse, right? In her mind it’s like the patriarchal view of sex is sex is intercourse.

3:58

So, here you go. You’ve got a couple that thinks she can’t have orgasms from intercourse and that sex is intercourse. Well, how the hell long is she gonna want to have intercourse? What stories is she gonna make up in her mind being sexually dissatisfied at the core of her being ‘cause her yoni knows it ain’t no good. And so, she’s gotta do all this propping-up of her mind frame to keep having intercourse with a guy who doesn't even think she can have orgasms. She doesn't think she can have them. And it just makes me crazy because I want every sexpert in the world to be like, “Girl, let’s show you how to learn how to do it.”

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Susan Bratton: Let’s close that gap! Let’s cross that gasm chasm! And that’s what I spend a lot of time doing is -- people don't know how to have intercourse.

Amanda Testa: Right.

Susan Bratton: People know how to make a baby, but literally he does not know what to do with that penis besides [Rocking Sounds] in-and-out, in-and-out like it’s a piston. We don't like that kind of friction, right?

5:06

Especially in older women, we don't like that constant chafing of the introital sphincter, and, sure, of course, every girl likes a good pounding when she’s super warmed up and really turned on. I’m not saying that’s not one thing, but there’s, like, a dozen techniques for intercourse - things she can do, things he can do, things they can do. So I’ve been writing a lot about that. So that’s what one thing is. I’m constantly experimenting, noticing, trying, and writing things.

Then the second piece for me is this whole sexual biohacking which is revering the atrophy, loss of lubrication, etcetera of aging so that I have the most incredible, fluffy, velvety, soft, lubricated, responsive, activated, delicious, sensitive, orgasmic yoni (as in vulva, as in our whole genital system).

6:07

Honestly, my vulva is more delicious, more activated, more everything then it was when I was 30 years old (half my age). I’m having better orgasms. I know how to orgasm better. I know how to take care of my vagina and my vulva. I spent tons of time trying the 20 different kinds of orgasms. That’s another thing I’ve been working on is documenting every single type of orgasm the body can have: locations to touch, specific orgasmic techniques (almost like yoga moves, yoga asanas or jujitsu forms or what have you, like how do you trigger orgasms in the body through specific techniques), and objects of desire. And objects of desire led me to how can a woman orgasmically cross train, how could a man orgasmically cross train so that they take the orgasm they have and turn it into a whole bunch of ways to orgasm so that when they're with a partner, they're not worried about orgasming at all because they’ve done a lot of the work to teach their body, to activate their body to have orgasms.

7:12

So this is the stuff that’s going on in my world right now.

Amanda Testa: Well, I know when you were on the podcast last time, we talked about the sexual cross training. So everyone will have to go back and listen. I’ll put the link to that in the show notes as well.

Susan Bratton: Okay, great.

Amanda Testa: This is maybe the fifth time you’ve been on? You are always like a treasure trove so I’m always happy when you want to come back.

Susan Bratton: I always want to be on your show! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: One of the things that I think is important to talk about, because you and I know the benefits of exploring and learning and teaching your body how to really magnify its pleasure potential, because most people don't know that. And so, when you were talking about really opening your mind about what’s possible, because I think most people are just scratching the surface on what kind of pleasure they could actually really be having.

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: And so, I’m curious, for you, what keeps you inspired to keep trying? ‘Cause I think that is something that I hear a lot from my clients and people listening is that they want that but it feels like such work and they're already exhausted. So what do you say to those people?

8:07

Susan Bratton: Yeah. Well, there’s this threshold that you kind of crossover where you have a relationship with your partner that is so mutually supportive and easy, sexually, that the two of you just keep coming up with new things you want to try together. And so, you are sharing fantasies, and you're seeing things that trigger ideas or you’re just noticing something you did last time or a fantasy just comes up from within you that sounds really sexy. And so, it’s once you get to be the type of couple that wants to play together in the bedroom, wants to learn together, and knows that there’s an infinite amount of things you can learn together, that it never stops getting -- it’s funny.

9:02

When I first started doing my Expanded Orgasm practice (almost 20 years ago, now) -- Expanded Orgasm is one of those second kinds of orgasms, the technique that triggers a specific type of orgasm. I was doing it, and I was cumming so much that I was literally afraid that I was, I don't know, gonna not be able to work the next day. I was cumming for like an hour. I was seeing how long I could cum (like, for an hour at a time) and things like that.

I called my mentor, Dr. Patti Taylor, who taught my Expanded Orgasm practice and wrote expandherorgasmtonight.com which is our Expanded Orgasm practice for couples which, by the way, I don't know if you heard, but there’s a new documentary coming out about OneTaste, the orgasmic meditation sex cult, and the woman who started that cult, basically, what she taught was expanded orgasm. She just called it orgasmic meditation, but she comes from that same lineage that my expandherorgasmtonight program comes from.

10:03

Amanda Testa: Ooh, I can't wait to see that one.

Susan Bratton: It’s tomorrow night, and I can’t wait!

Amanda Testa: Ooh, okay! I love those.

Susan Bratton: They were under FBI investigation. Half my friends are like, “Oh, fuck. I hope I’m not in that video.” My friends are literally all sitting on pins and needles going, “Oh, man, if I’m in that…,” and I’m like I don't think that they would have you in the documentary. I literally rescued my best friend out of that sex cult. I literally went and got her out of that sex cult, so it’s so interesting how addictive great orgasms can be.

But when I was talking to my mentor, and I was doing this Expanded Orgasm practice with Tim, my husband, I called her one day, and I’m like, “I’m scared, Patti. I’m scared. I’m so far out in orgasmic outer space that I’m worried I’ll come untethered. I’m gonna get lost out there. I feel like I’m on the edge of a cliff, and if I step off, I step off into nothingness,” and she’s like, “Yeah, step off. Go. You’ll be fine. Yeah, it might take you a little while to recover from it, but go.”

11:05

And she taught me that, in sex, there’s always something more, and I have been joking lately that if sex were a brand, sex’s tagline would be, “Sex, there’s always something more.” [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I love that! That’s so good.

Susan Bratton: Sex has a new tagline! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Oh, yes. There is always something more.

Susan Bratton: So when couples are like, “I’m so bored. I don't have the energy for this,” you don't have the energy for it because it’s not satisfying to you, because you're not having fun, ‘cause it’s work, because, frankly, your husband is horny everyday because men have three distinct competitive advantages in sex.

Number one: they get a massive bath of testosterone a couple times a day that makes them horndogs.

Number two: they’re biologically wired to masturbate everyday or so to keep their sperm fresh so they can pass on their species, and so, they're always masturbating and playing with their dicks and thinking about sexy stuff. We’re not.

12:02

We’re moon cycle girls, and there’s nothing wrong if you do masturbate everyday. I want people to masturbate everyday, but generally, women don't masturbate as much as men.

Number three: he’s got the benefits of fast-acting hemodynamics. If you really study orgasm, what you understand is that a big, big part of it is blood flow, engorgement, the clit -- which, by the way, if you took the clit out of your body and put it in your hand, it would fill up your palm. Your clit is not the tip. It’s this giant piece of meat inside your vulva, and that’s only one of your three erectile tissues since you’ve got the perineal sponge, you’ve got the urethral sponge, and you’ve got the clitoral body (which is the arms, the legs, the clit, the shaft) we need to have a clitoral erection. Guys get an erection like boop and they're ready to go, and they want intercourse. We want -- and they like this too, they just need to understand what we need -- we need 20 or 30 minutes to get that thing that looks like a little piece of liver, right? It’s like a little body thing, that has to fill with blood, and their penis fills so fast, and they're already horny, and they're always turned on.

13:08

They're ready to go, and we’re just slower. So the matriarchal view of sex is slow the fuck down. Sex isn’t intercourse. Sex is full-body massage. yoni massage. (I’ve got to tell you about yoni massage.) Stroke my hair, kiss my lips, kiss my cheeks, kiss my eyelids, rub my belly, rub my feet, give me a yoni massage, go down on me, let’s play with some toys to get the blood flow going. And I’ll play with your dick and stroke your cock and suck your cock, and then we’ll have some intercourse, but that’s all sex.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

Susan Bratton: Sex isn’t intercourse. Sex is connecting and cocreating body joy and intimacy together. And so, I just want to get out of that masculine, patriarchal view of sex and move us into the matriarchal way of making love because, ultimately, it’s more satisfying for men, too. It’s more satisfying for men when we’re satisfied, and it’s more fun to do all that stuff.

14:15

So I have no idea what your question was. Oh, yeah, so your question was how do you get excited to have sex, how do you keep it interesting, how do you have the energy for it?

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

Susan Bratton: You start learning new things so you get better in bed together so you want to have sex as much as possible. Like, I’m constantly scheming about when I can have sex again. I’m always thinking, “Okay, there’s a window. Let’s have sex right then. Okay, there’s a window. We can have a daybreak then.” I’m always looking at the ways to incorporate more intimacy into my schedule because I have so many things I love to do and, in any given moment, I might want to learn something new or I might just want to do whatever my body feels like it wants in that very moment because I listen to my yoni and she tells me the mood she’s in, what kind of pressure, how much warmup she needs, does she want to be in charge, does she want to surrender. She is my GPS so I just tune into her and she’s talking to me all the time.

15:20

So, for couples, I‘ve put together this new thing called The Sex Life Bucket List. You mentioned it, that you thought that was a neat idea. What I’ve realized is that people like techniques but what they want are fun ideas of sexy things to do together. They want experiences. So I came up with 48 experiences, and I put them on a downloadable PDF at sexlifebucketlist.com. You download it, and if you are lucky enough to have a partner, even if you’re having shitty sex with them right now, [Laughs] you make yourself two copies, and you go through this and you rank each one of the 48 things. If it’s a A, for you, it’s definitely going on your bucket list. If it’s a B, it wouldn't be on your bucket list, but if your partner wanted to do it, you’d do it, and C, it’s not for me right now (never say never) because you mature, sexually.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

16:06

Susan Bratton: Then you compare your A lists, and there’s your fun things you want to learn together. “Oh, I would like to learn female ejaculation.” “I’d like to do G-spot awakening.” “I’d like to have a prostate orgasm.” “Oh, I want to try this cock ring.” “Oh, I want to dress up and do role play. I’ve always wanted to be a naughty nurse!” You know, whatever it is, “Let’s do mutual masturbation.” There’s 48 things that get you guys aligned, and if you're single, you can make your own bucket list. “Oh, I want to have that orgasm. Oh, I want to have that. Oh, I want to try a threesome. I’m gonna go find a couple,” whatever it might be.

So that has been so much fun because I love hearing what’s on the top of people’s bucket lists. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I love that so much ‘cause it’s so fun! I don't know. I personally really, obviously, believe in the power of great sex, and I love how you said body joy. I think that’s freaking epic because it’s so true.

17:00

I think when you find the pleasure of it and the freakin’ ecstasy that you can have, then it’s real motivating, right? And so, what I also know, sometimes -- and I would love for you to speak to this because I know we talk about this a lot, but it comes up a lot -- is say, for example, I have clients a lot of times or students that they’re very great and orgasmic on their own, but then when it comes to bringing the partner in, maybe they're not open or they're not willing. And so, that can be really frustrating. And so, I’m wondering maybe what ideas that you can have to take someone who seems very unwilling to kind of soften them to new ideas and to be more open.

Susan Bratton: How does the unwillingness express in your clients’ experience?

Amanda Testa: So, just literally they’re throwing the ideas, they're being creative, they're trying to invite them, and they just are not really making it a priority. Like, if they have to do it or if there’s an accountability, they’ll do it. But there’s not a lot of enthusiasm around it, and I personally believe it’s because, oftentimes, there’s a lot of shame that comes up for a lot of people around sex, and it can come up as fear of performance issues or fear of change.

18:07

All the things are just like I’m tired, and I don't really have the energy for that or whatever it is. Whatever silly thing might come up, but in the moment those things feel like big things.

Susan Bratton: Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Everything’s all figure-out-able, but, yeah, what would you say to that?

Susan Bratton: It’s rejection. It’s rejection when you come up with an idea and your partner doesn't want to do it. Yeah.

Amanda Testa: Yes, and that rejection, over time, can really build resentment.

Susan Bratton: Oh, over time? Like, immediately! You want to piss off a yoni? I mean, men suffer from feeling rejected all the time for sex so it goes both ways.

Amanda Testa: That’s true. Exactly.

Susan Bratton: When women want to try new things, what kinds of things are they asking their partners to do?

Amanda Testa: I guess it varies. It varies.

Susan Bratton: What are some examples?

Amanda Testa: I would say most of the time it’s like, “Here are some things I want to try of new ways of --,” even like you say, “Here are some ideas. Is there anything you’d be interested in? If it’s a yes, let’s try it,” and then upon being presented the information they are just like, “Yeah, that sounds good,” but then there’s just never the action. The ideas are there, it’s good, but taking the step to actually do the thing is a lot of times where it comes up.

19:17

Susan Bratton: Yeah, okay, I think that’s mostly fear driven from lack of understanding. I would say that most of the time, when you’re asking for something, and you’re even asking for it over and over and it’s not happening, it’s because, generally -- I’m gonna make some gross, what’s the word I want?

Amanda Testa: Generalizations?

Susan Bratton: Yeah, I’m gonna make some generalizations because I think that the genders are different, and sex is a big bell curve, and most people are in the middle of it, and this is pretty typical. Your mileage may vary.

Let’s just say the construct is a woman wants to do something. Let’s say G-spot awakening.

Amanda Testa: Yeah, that’s a great idea.

Susan Bratton: Let’s say female ejaculation. Let’s say yoni massage. Let’s say she wants to try using a sex toy during intercourse. Those are probably good ones.

Amanda Testa: Yeah.

20:11

Susan Bratton: I think those are very common ones based on what women are telling me for their Sex Life Bucket List. Those are kind of the ones that women are most interested in right now.

Okay, he wants to make you happy, but he has no friggin’ clue what a yoni massage is. He does not really know where the G-spot is. He watches porn. He watches squirting porn, but he thinks that that is just some magic thing that women do or it’s fake or whatever. He doesn't even know. He doesn't know how to touch you. He’s ham-handed. He’s not really sure how to approach it. With sex toys he’s like, “Oh, well I’m not good enough,” right? “Oh, you have to use a vibrator while I’m having sex with you? Well, what’s wrong with my dick?” You know? “So I’m already feeling like you're making me feel less than. Oh, you don't think what I’m doing is good?”

21:03

This is what happens with men because men are testosterone-dominant rather than estrogen-dominant, and it makes them overly confident in their skills, but what they're driven to do is to be respected and to know they're doing a good job.

So they already think they're better than they are. They think sex is better than you do. And they are triggered by the suggestion that they should do something because they feel like they’ve already got it all organized. You should be fine with it because, remember, penetration feels so good for them that they think, “Oh, well, you can’t cum, but this is sex. We’re having sex.” So it’s kind of like complacency, fear, ignorance, and this over-confidence, and that they feel disrespected if you're asking for something.

And so, this is all just how a dude operating system works, and this is why women hate to ask for what they want because they don't want to deal with his pouting and his all like [Whining Noises] and he gets all pissy, and they're like, “Oh, screw it. I’ll just suck it up and deal with it and use my vibrator later,” and then their sex life goes to hell, right? I mean, this is what happens.

Amanda Testa: Mm-hmm.

22:19

Susan Bratton: So, here’s what I found with dudes that works really well because, honestly, my fan-base (which is vast), they are 60% men, 40% women. I help dudes even more than I help women because I have just unlocked the dude mentality, and the reason why I like to work with men is because they're actually super simple, and I know mostly women listen to your show so I really feel like I can say stuff in a direct way where I don't have to worry so much about their ego because probably so many more women are listening.

I love men. I love men, and I understand them, and I adore them, and I know that they really would give up their pleasure for our pleasure. I really know they want to do a good job, but all that stuff, that testosterone-y bullshit just makes it so hard for them.

23:08

So, the best thing to do is the answer is give him a checklist. He doesn't know what to do! He’s not doing it, not ‘cause he doesn't want to, but because he doesn't know how. He literally doesn't know what you want. He has no understanding of what this is. It’s interesting because I recently started -- and I’m gonna give you more specifics on this, but I’m gonna give you an example. I recently started an OnlyFans. I wanted to tell you about it, Amanda, because I am so sick of not being able to express all of my gifts on social media.

Amanda Testa: Yes, I hear you.

Susan Bratton: I’m just, like, constantly worried about getting shut down. I can’t post anything interesting.

Amanda Testa: Right. I hear you. It’s PG.

Susan Bratton: Super PG! And so, okay, Meta doesn't want my content. I get that. (Meta being Instagram, Facebook.)

Amanda Testa: Yes, yes.

Susan Bratton: So I started an OnlyFans. I’ll tell you something.

24:00

My creative freedom, it has just blossomed my thinking to be able to write whatever I want. There are a couple keywords you can't write, like you can't write blood. I write about blood all the time - blood flow. I’m constantly writing about blood flow, and I was like, “You can’t write blood?” [Laughs] It’s so funny, but I recently did a post on OnlyFans where I took a picture of my vulva spread open -- not the inner labia open, but just my legs spread. My partner took a picture, and then I put arrow to this, arrow to this, arrow to this. I said, “Here’s all the parts,” and then the post was, “Here’s how to touch each part. This is the kind of touch that this particular tissue likes,” and then overarching instructions for guys which are simple things like, “You have to rub all the oil all over all of your hands. You have to use the organic oil liberally. You have to put her on a towel. You have to stroke across the mons, but not the skin underneath the skin you're touching the tissue.

25:09

You're manipulating the tissue. The labia like to be kneaded. They're these little plumpy bags that puff up. The inner labia like long, soft up and down strokes. When you go inside the channel between the inner and outer labia, put pressure in there and feel the clitoral shaft up inside there. What you want to do is you want to get blood to the shaft and stroke it like it’s gonna be a mini penis. You actually can kind of jerk off the little penis. You want to stroke over the hood, not just go right to the clit. You’ve got to start from the outside and work your way in. You don’t want to stick your fingers in until she invites you.” Like, a million little tips.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

26:00

Susan Bratton: When I posted a little thing on Instagram, I put that picture all blurred out with an orchid over the vulva, and then question marks all around the orchid. So I posted that and I said, “Hey! If you want my yoni massage techniques, you have to go to my OnlyFans site. DM me for the link,” because I can’t post the link on Instagram or they’ll shut my account down. So, “DM me for the link.” I’m still worried I’ll get shut down over that.

So I literally had to have my husband go get a technology called ManyChat, I think it’s called, which I had to hookup to my Instagram, and now when people put, “Link for yoni massage.” “Give me the link for yoni massage.” “Yoni massage.” “Link for massage,” it fires off the link because I was spending hours a day sending the link. My hands are sore from sending the link out about yoni massage.

26:54

So, guys just don't know what to do. They need to be told what to do, and then you're like, “But, wait. If I tell him what to do, he’s gonna get all janked out.” He isn’t if you take him through the scenario verbally and you describe what to do and say, “Here’s where I thought we could start. I’d love you to give me a yoni massage,” or, “I’d love you to find and awaken my G-spot, and this is what I’ve heard is the strategy. So I was thinking we can have an erotic playdate.” That’s what I call them. I call them erotic playdates. It’s one of the six essentials for connected sex is having erotic playdates where you're not having sex, you're learning something new together, and you call it a playdate - an erotic playdate. It reframes the whole thing into a learning experience where he’s not gonna feel like he has to know all the answers, and you are, then, verbally giving him feedback.

The other things guys write to me all the time is -- one guy wrote to me, “I would love to give my wife a yoni massage but she is literally totally silent during sex. I won't get any feedback. I don't know if I could even do it. I could try it but how do I get her to give me feedback?”

28:00

So I answered that on my OnlyFans: here’s how to give feedback. By the way, my OnlyFans is onlyfans.com/susanbratton, my name. So if you want to go there and get the yoni massage and what to do to get people to talk and all this stuff that I’m finally getting to write, it’s there.

But I think what guys really want is step-by-step instructions and checklists. They want a framework within which they can do and experience trial and error, and they need a lot of positive feedback. “Yes, babe. That feels good. Okay, go a little higher. More deep. Softer. Not the top of the skin. Do underneath, the tissue under. Okay, you're going against my pubic hair. Go like a kitty, from the top down. Yeah, that feels good. Oh, babe, that’s so great. Keep doing that until I say stop. I’m just gonna totally go dead right now and relax and take that in and ride that exquisite sensation. Okay, go.” Right? [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yeah, I love it.

Susan Bratton: So I think that’s really the answer is make a playdate, tell him what to do, give him tons of feedback, and tell him what you really want ‘cause they do not know what you need.

29:06

Amanda Testa: Yes, I think the simpler -- and I love the checklist idea. I actually do that for a lot of things, and it works really well. I have a folder that I put all kinds of things I want in, and it’s on my husband’s desk so if there’s anything coming up or if he just wants to be sweet, I’m like, “Here’s a bunch of ideas of things I want so if you're thinking, here’s what I’d really love,” and I just tell him exactly what it is because how do you get exactly what you want? Ask for exactly what you want, right?

Susan Bratton: Yeah, people love when you ask for exactly what you want because then they know that you’re happy, that they're making you happy. So many of us come from experiences where we didn't feel safe to ask for what we wanted and our boundaries are constantly getting trampled on because we’re afraid you won't love us if we tell you what we need, and we’ve got to get over that. I’ll tell you, being 60, I just say the things, and people love it.

Amanda Testa: Right.

30:02

Susan Bratton: They're like, “Oh, okay! Thanks! Great, I can do that!” I’m like, “You know what I really want from you? Can I tell you what I really want?” They're like, “Yeah!” [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: Yes, I love that. Speaking of which, because that’s the beauty -- I don't know, at least in my experience. I feel like the older I get, the less fucks I give which I really love.

Susan Bratton: Yes, exactly.

Amanda Testa: I’m like, man, if it could have been like this years ago that would have been amazing.

Susan Bratton: I know.

Amanda Testa: But that’s okay. I am now, and it’s so fun! One of the things I know that you're really passionate about is the vaginal rejuvenation. I think we’ve touched on this a little bit, but I would love to talk more about that because, yes, I know you know so much about it, and you've tried all the things. So what would you distill as your favorite tips around that?

Susan Bratton: Yeah, it’s pretty straightforward at this point. There’s finally been some new inventions that were what we women needed. We went through some stone-age bullshit with vaginal rejuvenation that was painful and damaging, and I was like, “Oh, my god! This is horrible!” And now, I am here to tell you there’s a couple of things I totally love that make a huge difference. These are the needle-movers, and they're super easy.

31:06

Number one: everybody’s vagina and vulva is atrophying, and here’s where you're going. You're going to thinning tissue, vaginalaxity, loss of lubrication, diminished orgasmic intensity, even struggling to orgasm, incontinence. Oh, I hate that. I hate pissing in my pants. The minute it starts up again, I'm like I’ve got to nip that shit in the bud. Basically, what’s happening is -- is there anything I missed? Painful sex (it hurts to be penetrated or even to be touched), and more urinary tract infections, more vaginal dysbiosis of the microbiome of the vagina, and saggy labia. This one really pisses me off.

As a matter of fact, somebody recently told me that Joan Rivers did a joke about it. I frickin’ love that Joan Rivers. She was a female comedian that was popular in probably the ‘80s and ‘90s.

32:05

And when she was getting older -- and she would make a lot of jokes about herself -- and she said that when she looked down at her crotch she was like, “Holy shit, there’s bunny slippers down there. It looked like this saggy --,” because your outer labia, they start to sag and they start to look like balls! That’s just the worst, man. I mean, aging is shitty, right? But when your vagina’s getting thin and then it’s getting more open, his penis is atrophying and getting smaller and shrinking, and you can’t get a grip on that thing. “Is it in yet?” You’ve got to fix that stuff, and you do have to nip it in the bud because you are going to age, and you’re aging constantly.

So you're basically just trying to hold back against the aging. You can reverse, you can regenerate your tissue. You can reverse incontinence. You can plump those labia up (I’m gonna tell you how to do it). You can get rid of vaginal pain. You can fix your microbiome. You can increase your orgasmic intensity.

33:09

You can reverse every single thing that is happening but you have to keep working on it because it’s just like wrinkles. You start to everything wrinkles and you're like, “Oh, god, I’ve got to get a better face cream.” Then, you're like, “Oh, god, now I’ve gotta get some lasering done.” “Oh, god, now I’ve gotta get a facelift.” You do have to stay on stuff if that’s what you care about.

For me, I care about those things. I want to stay super young and super sexy for my age and for how I look. That’s what I want to do. So, there’s this very short list of things that I currently love that work great and they work together. They're a synergistic stack of modalities. Here they are:

33:54

Number one is take a nitric oxide supplement. You know I have a sexual vitality supplement company. I think I’ve sent these to you, and if you ever need more, just let me know. This is called Flow, and it is a nitric-oxide booster made from organic fruit and vegetables, and it’s citrulline based which is better for women over 40 -- men and women. What this does is it keeps the blood flow going to your pelvis so the muscles, the tissues are continuing to get the healing effects of your blood and the engorgement that you need to get your clitoral erection so you feel pleasure 'cause the bigger and more plump everything is, the more signals go to the brain (which is the primary sex organ). That’s what Laurie Mintz was just talking about recently, right? Sex organ is the brain. The more plump everything is, the more engorged, the more foreplay you have -- and I don't think foreplay’s even a word. I think that’s all sex for us. We want stroking, rubbing, touching, licking before we have intercourse.

35:00

When we get that and we get all plumped up, we have many more signals of pleasure to the brain. This also helps with lubrication because the vagina is not a gland, it’s a muscle (a strong muscle if you keep it in good tone), and it can’t wet itself. It needs blood plasma coming to the pelvic bowl, and then the plasma seeps the fluid down through the layers of the vaginal mucosal lining, and that’s what lubricates us.

So if we’re not taken up our arousal ladder in the speed that we need, and we can’t get the blood flow to our genitals, we can't get the lubrication that we need and we can't get the orgasmic pleasure that we need, and by the time we’re 50, we have half the nitric oxide production we had when we were 20. So when woman say, “Oh, it’s my hormones,” I’m like, “You know, maybe not because that’s just really estrogen. You actually have a higher ratio of testosterone to estrogen after menopause. You should actually be hornier. It’s probably really, in large part, the fact that you're not getting the blood flow to your pelvis.”

36:04

So, Flow -- the link for that -- the cheapest way you can buy it (which I always use on a podcast is buyflownow). That’s my special podcast rate. So I really like nitric acid. That’s, like, the foundation.

The second thing -- and there’s only four things, and one of them is an elective cherry-on-top kind of thing. The second thing is something called the vFit Gold which is an intravaginal device that uses vibration, warmth, and redlight therapy. It helps stimulate mitochondrial growth in the vagina. It helps tighten and tone the vagina. It helps reverse incontinence. It improves lubrication. I like to use it the day I’m gonna have intercourse with my husband because it gets everything up inside engorged because so much of our clitoral tissue and urethral and perineal tissue is up inside. It’s buried, and so, it’s really hard to get from the outside.

36:59

So the vFit Gold (and I have a special for that, too, because I am constantly telling people about it, so they made me a package with a whole bunch of bonus gifts in it) is at joylux.com/susan. I use it pretty much every morning. I put it into my vagina (it’s a ten-minute thing) while I’m scrolling Instagram and answering all the yoni massage -- giving everyone their yoni massage links.

Amanda Testa: Yes.

Susan Bratton: [Laughs] Drinking my latte. I’ve got my redlight hat on to grow my hair from COVID 'cause I lost so much from COVID, and I wear two redlight sleeves around my arms where my biceps are because when I lost 30 pounds from working out everyday I got super creepy skin on my arms above my elbows, and I’m tightening it up with redlight. So I love redlight.

Amanda Testa: I’m gonna check that out. I love the redlight too. I have one of those little ones that you put on your face, right? I put it on my neck, and I put it on my vulva, but I would like the internal on that.

Susan Bratton: Right up inside.

Amanda Testa: Love it!

Susan Bratton: The vFit Gold.

Amanda Testa: Okay.

38:02

Susan Bratton: Then, the next thing is, okay, so now you're doing inside the vagina. That’s good, but you've got incontinence, tissue atrophy, [Laughs] saggy labia, your clit’s not getting as hard as it used to, you're losing all this tissue, so I like FemiWave. FemiWave is like GAINSWave for men. It’s an acoustic wave technology. You go to a place, and they run this little wand on the outside of your body. They put it on your mons, they put it on your labia, and they put it on your perineum, and they put it over your clitoral structure. It sends these waves into the tissue that stimulates new tissue growth and brings healing and growth factors to the whole vulva and all the erectile tissue inside there, including helping with the urethral canal, the bladder, the incontinence, etcetera. It stimulates lubrication, it stimulates pleasure, your orgasms get better, it tightens and tones everything.

39:03

It’s like the two things work perfectly together. The vFit for inside and then the FemiWave on the outside, all around the tissue, not too deep in. I love that because what I used to have to tell women to do was go burn their vaginas with a CO2 laser or an RF device and have pain and weeping just to get the tone and all the stuff, and it didn't do anything for the clitoral structure. It didn't do anything for the outer labia. Now, I’m like do not even do that stuff unless you’re chronic and you’ve tried everything else first.

So I love the vFit, I love the FemiWave, and then the last thing which is the cherry on top is the O-Shot or Orgasm Shot which is the PRP. It comes from your own blood. They take your blood. They put it into a centrifuge. They pull off the white and red blood cells. They take the fibrin-rich matrix of healing and growth factors and stem cells from your own body, and they inject it right into that spongy tissue of the clitoris and the G-spot, and that stimulates even more new tissue growth, reversing more atrophy, increasing more orgasmic pleasure, supporting all that musculature basket that’s keeping you from having prolapsed organs and incontinence and all that stuff.

40:20

So if you can afford that, that’s usually about $1,500. If you can afford that, I mean, the vFit is cheap, and the FemiWave is super effective, but if you’ve got the extra cash -- ‘cause I always like to do budget, medium, and luxury. And so, the O-Shot, just adding that on top, it is the cherry on top of everything else. I wouldn't do an O-Shot before I did the FemiWave. I wouldn't do the FemiWave before I tried the vFit. Unless you don't have any intervaginal problems but you just want to plump everything up, get more sensation, etcetera, then I would start with the FemiWave if you don't have any vaginal laxity or loss of lubrication in that way.

41:05

So, those are the four things that are easy, work, keep atrophy at bay, and give you that velvety vulva.

Amanda Testa: Mm, I love it. [Laughs]

Susan Bratton: [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: The other thing -- and I know we’re coming up on our time -- but I just want to mention it because I know the relative to the FemiWave is the GAINSWave for erectile dysfunction. Will you speak to that too? Because I know, oftentimes, people are like, “Tell me some resources for erectile dysfunction.” So if you could share just a brief little bit about that too.

Susan Bratton: Yeah, as you're aging, your male-bodied partner is aging. His penis is getting less firm. It’s not as veiny as it used to be. It’s not as solid as it used to be. It doesn't stay hard as long as it used to. He’s got a longer refractory period. He might even have trouble maintaining an erection. It’s just not as good as it used to be - shrinking, etcetera. And so, what GAINSWave does, and what I recommend is, take nitric oxide. Take the Flow for him too. Every night is best.

42:05

Take it during the day if that’s when you take your supplements, and then take it 20 minutes before sex because, for a lot of men, they're taking Viagra to get their hard-on when, really, they're just low in nitric oxide, and they're taking 60 milligrams of Viagra. They're getting headaches, stuffy noses, flushing, migraines later in the next day. Even some guys are having vision issues, and they’re still taking these giant doses of Viagra because sex is so important to them when, literally, they could just be topping up their nitric oxide and maybe even drop down to a microdose of Viagra if they even need it.

So, the blood flow is number one. Number two is using a vacuum erection device which is a penis pump, and if you normalize that for your guy, and you're’ like, “Hey, I’ll use my vFit while you use your penis pump,” it’s going to increase the blood-carrying capacity of his penis, revascularize it, stimulate new tissue growth. It’s like $200. It costs nothing, and it feels good for him, he gets to play with his dick (which he loves), and he gets a much firmer erection, and it reverses atrophy.

43:08

Add to that the GAINSWave device or treatments (which you go to a treatment center and get), six GAINSWave sessions will reverse his atrophy and restore function (dial back the clock by decades for him). He’ll be so happy, and for some men who have atherosclerosis, diabetes, they’ve been very ill for a long time, you might have to do a couple rounds of that to really restore function, but it is amazing what GAINSWave does for the penis, and the pumping and the penis together, you want to stack ‘em. They're synergistic and they help each other work even better, and then you can do a P-Shot (or a Priapus shot) which is the PRP into the penis, and it doesn’t hurt. They numb it, and that just accelerates everything. It’s just like a turbo charger for all that healing and growth of new tissue.

44:03

So, really, what you're doing, it’s called sexual regenerative therapies, and you're reversing the atrophy of aging by stimulating new tissue growth using these synergistic modalities.

Amanda Testa: I appreciate that information ‘cause if people want that, it’s something hard to find where to go and what to do. So I love how you just make it simple. Also, how do people find that kind of treatment if they're looking?

Susan Bratton: Yeah, you just go to GAINSWave.com, you go to FemiWave.com, then you can also google P-Shot Directory, O-Shot Directory, and you’ll find it. What I would do is I would go to a practitioner in your area who does both things. Don’t go to one person for a P-Shot and one person for the GAINSWave. Go to the GAINSWave doctor that’s doing P-Shots and have it all done at one time because then they’re monitoring your progress, and they're looking at how you're doing with the synergistic treatments. Also, don't forget to get your guy’s testosterone checked. It’s very, very important to keep his testosterone high. You can do a lot with generating more endogenous testosterone, but you can also do testosterone replacement therapy.

45:09

I take testosterone, and I love it. I don't take it. I put it on my clitoral structure. I rub it on my labia and my clitoral structure every morning along with the estrogens in my estrogen cream. So, that also really keeps the vulva very young and nice and much more sensitive for orgasm, responsive to orgasm and touch, and it also gives us balls as women. It gives us confidence. We don’t turn into scaredy little old ladies when we do our testosterone replacement. So, if you’re interested in bioidentical hormone replacement, it’s very good to balance the estrogens (estriol and estradiol) with some testosterone and progesterone. And getting good blood tests is very good.

The place that I recommend people go to get the right tests and get the information they need translated to them in a simple way is at marekhealth.com/susan.

46:09

This link has the two tests and a special discount for people because I’ve sent them there ‘cause so many people are like, “What test do I get? How do I know how to read it?” So I set up a relationship with Marek because they’ll help you get the test, and then they’ll translate it for you and give you your options for hormone replacement because most people are just struggling with their regular healthcare, but it’s so important to have good hormonal profile that this is the gift you give yourself above and beyond what you’re already paying for healthcare.

The last thing I would give up in the world would be my hormones. It’s like literally the last thing. You can take my wigs. You can take my friggin’ makeup. You can take all my yoga pants, but you cannot have my bioidentical hormone replacement. [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: I love it.

Susan Bratton: You could even take my vibrators, if you want to! That’d be my second-to-last thing. [Laughs]

47:00

Amanda Testa: Oh, my goodness, I love it. I so appreciate you, and I just love you to death, Susan. Thank you so much. You are such a kind human. I just have to share when you were talking about the penis pump, this just reminded me that my very first interview out of college when I was 22 was for Osbon Medical selling penis pumps. I didn't get the job, but that was my very first interview!

Susan Bratton: Yay!

Amanda Testa: Too bad, but it all worked out in the end. I still am [Laughs] where I’m meant to be, but it just makes me laugh.

Susan Bratton: You are. You are so where you're meant to be, and thank you so much for asking me such great questions. I love being with you. I miss you so much. This pandemic has been the shits, and I can’t wait ‘til I can hug you in person.

Amanda Testa: I know, me too. Well, thank you so much again, and I’ll make sure to put all of this juicy info in the show notes but, also, this is a great episode to bookmark, share with your friends, listen back to. And, please, shoot us a DM. Susan, share a little about where people can connect with you so they can connect and if they have more questions or want the yoni massage link!

Susan Bratton: Yeah! [Laughs]

Amanda Testa: What’s the best way to connect with you?

48:02

Susan Bratton: You can slide into my DMs @susanbratton on Instagram. On OnlyFans, I’m onlyfans.com/susanbratton. My main website is personallifemedia.com. If you want all those intercourse techniques you can just look up Makin’ Whoopee. You can find all of my videos, including my yoni massage videos and how to have penetration orgasms from intercourse, on betterlover.com. Gosh, you can always email me back if you're on my email newsletter. I answer all my emails.

Amanda Testa: Yes, you're such an amazing human. I just keep saying that ‘cause it’s so true, and I just remember the first time we met. You're just -- ah! I just appreciate you so much, so thank you for being you and for all this amazing work that you're doing in the world. I’ll be in touch with you soon! Hopefully we can be together in person. Yay! Thank you so much again for being here, and thank you all for listening, and we will see you next week!

[Fun, Empowering Music]

Thank you so much for listening to the Find Your Feminine Fire podcast. This is your host, Amanda Testa, and if you have felt a calling while listening to this podcast to take this work to a deeper level, this is your golden invitation.

49:07

I invite you to reach out. You can contact me at amandatesta.com/activate, and we can have a heart-to-heart to discuss more about how this work can transform your life. You can also join us on Facebook in the Find Your Feminine Fire group, and if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please share with your friends. Go to iTunes and give me a five-star rating and a raving review so I can connect with other amazing listeners like yourself.

Thank you so much for being a part of the community.

[Fun, Empowering Music]